DART+ (DART Expansion)

spillit67

The Zoo/NCR is a must I think.

gjim

I think you need to think carefully before adding stops - the utility added has a cost. Each new stop adds time, could be 4 or 5 minutes for a DART (? - very rough estimate) between dwell time and accelerating/braking. So two new stops could add nearly 10 minutes to someone’s journey time in each direction.

Typically heavy rail commuter/S-Bahn type services have fewer stops - usually at least a km between stations and often even more. Metro - with lighter rolling stock - can support closer stops. DART has evolved into a bit of a Frankenstein’s monster with characteristics of metro (some stations very close together), SBahn (heavy rail rolling stock) and even regional rail services (especially with DART+).

KrisW1001

I'd also really like to see a Zoo stop - it would solve a huge amount of traffic problems around Phoenix Park (the Zoo is consistently in the top three paid attractions in the country, and the majority of its visitors drive there), but I think space for a station is limited, and the railway is curved for most of its path under the park. You could have a Zoo/NCR station toward the northern opening of the tunnel, with the South-Western entrance within the Park, the platforms running out alongside North Circular Rd, and the NE entrance serving NCR.

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540109#Comment_121540109

Even an intercity service at line speed wouldn’t take that long to serve a station, an extra dart stop would likely add 2 minuets onto the journey time.

IÉ have funding for the design of Kylemore station. https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1638573421201072128

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540109#Comment_121540109

What is the point of having heavy rail going across the dense parts of the city and not stopping?

There’s clearly scope within the city centre for at least two other stops for DART W/SW other than Heuston West and Glasnevin.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540265#Comment_121540265

As well as opening up the park to more people generally.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541843#Comment_121541843

If there were space for a stopping service vs an express service, it would make more sense, but it would need additional tracks. If there was a speedy lighter metro service from Hazelhatch to the Docklands passing through, then stations could likely make sense. They don't really for commuter rail if its adding 15-20 minutes to journeytimes.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541895#Comment_121541895

What is the point of ignoring dense areas of Dublin?

God bless Hazelhatch. They currently are fortunate enough to get to the city centre in 35-40 mins whilst people far closer struggle. If they get another 10 mins added to their journey when there are more frequent services then they’ll just have to live with it.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541950#Comment_121541950

In the hierarchy of PT modes, that's generally what heavy rail/S-Bahn type services are used for and excel at - longer travel distances and less frequent stops. In cities with the full complement of PT modes, shorter trips within the city centre core are generally served by trams and/or metro. If all you have is a hammer (DART) everything may look like a nail but I think the strategy should be to try to use the modes as effectively as possible. I'm not arguing that there should be NO new DART stations added but adding stations is not "free". If a new station is only going to provide increased utility to a thousand or two passengers a day while adding say 3 or 4 minutes to the journey times for 10 or 20 thousand passengers a day, then you need to carefully weigh up this cost against the benefit.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542217#Comment_121542217

Realistically they need to be widening the PPT to facilitate more tracks so you could justify the added stations in the inner city. You could then have a reasonably speedy stopping service within the M50 whilst not compromising commute times for folk traveling from outside the M50.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121541895#Comment_121541895

There isn't going to be any express services using the PPT. The whole point of the PPT is to expand the suburban rail network.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542217#Comment_121542217

Not to take from your point, but Munich's S-Bahn functioned very well for 40 years with stops that are less than 800 m apart along its central trunk segment. Those stops are definitely too close, but in order to provide links to other modes they had to be where they were.

In keeping with your general point, though, Munich is building a second S-Bahn trunk, which will have fewer stops in the centre, but this will enhance, not replace, services using the existing tunnel.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542217#Comment_121542217

So DART+ is supposed to only serve people in Hazelhatch, whilst people in Cabra are stuck in traffic jams but have trains passing through?

Fetishising S Bahn is all well and good. You seem to miss the point that we don’t have those systems in place.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542244#Comment_121542244

They can live with 50 min commutes vs. 40 mins, sorry.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543547#Comment_121543547

With the increase in frequency, the average waiting time will fall, meaning that they'll probably come out even.

spacetweek

The rule of thumb for times added for 1 stop are:

3 mins for diesel services

2 mins for electric heavy rail

1 min for tram or tram-style (Metrolink will be tram style).

So adding a DART station would only add 2 mins. Assuming the driver doesn’t fart about which might be asking a lot.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543541#Comment_121543541

No, nobody is arguing that DART+ is only to serve Hazelhatch. That's pure strawman stuff.

Aside from the general point, there's no reason for anyone to be stuck in traffic coming from Cabra. West Cabra has Broombridge for DART and Luas, will have Glasnevin for DART and ML on the other side, and has 2 further Luas stops as well as spine B of BusConnects running through the middle of it. For a low density inner suburb it has some of the best PT options in the city.

There's a far stronger case for providing more stations along DART SW.

In terms of the general point - yes there's nothing crazy about some types of train services just "pass through" without stopping - we don't complain that intercity services pass through suburbs without stopping.

A bit more of trying to learn from continental cities approach to PT is not fetishising.

spillit67

It is complete fetishising as you simply attribute an experience elsewhere to here.

Saying S Bahn over and over again doesn’t magically give us that system.

It is irrational to suggest the distance between Heuston West and Glasnevin doesn’t warrant at least one stop.

We need to be providing actual inter connectivity now, not pretending we are Switzerland.

gjim

I'm out. Your strawman stuff and ranting is a waste of time for everyone.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121544921#Comment_121544921

Gjim is completely correct in what he is saying. Different types of public transport are used in different ways, different frequency levels, different spacing between stops, different journey times, different capacity per vehicle and per route, etc.

For instance buses tend to have very closely spaced bus stops and as a result the worst journey times. Trams tend to have slightly wider spacing between stops, Metro’s typically even wider, heavy rail DART/S-Bahn type systems even wider spacing, long distance commuter rail even further spacing, intercity obviously the widest.

DART/S-bahn type systems tend to straddle a grey area between regional commuter rail and mass transit systems.

Im not sure what you mean by us not having S-Bahn, we absolutely do, it is DART, S-Bahn is just the German name for this type of system. In Denmark they call them S-trains. With DART+ we will have even wider network of this type.

In Germany S-Bahn can look different from city to city, more regional rail like in some cities, more mass transit in others.

Interestingly the first line of wiki says this about DART:

The Dublin Area Rapid Transit system (stylised as DART) is an electrified commuter rail railway network serving the coastline and city of Dublin, Ireland.

To be clear, I’m not arguing for or against any particular new stations, each one should be examined and the pros and cons, balanced, with other transport options available in that area, versus impacts on longer distance commuters.

But you really shouldn’t think of DART like Luas or Metro, it is a longer distance commuter type service with typically greater spacing between stations.

LXFlyer

The likelihood is that there will be a station added at Cabra (between Cabra Road and Faussagh Avenue) at some point.

A station at the PPT north portal isn’t a runner due to the curvature of the track to the north east - it would breach accessibility rules for new build stations.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121546267#Comment_121546267

Except what is the distance between Sydney Parade and Sandymount?

Grand Canal Dock and Pearse?

The new Pelletstown Station and Broombridge?

Why on earth would you keep a 4km distance between Glasnevin and the PPT and not put in at least one stop?

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121545111#Comment_121545111

No it isn’t.

What is the distance between the new Pelletstown and Broombridge?

This kind of thinking would have stopped a station at Grand Canal Dock.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121546665#Comment_121546665

Why on earth would you keep a 4km distance between Glasnevin and the PPT and not put in at least one stop?

You mean like the supposedly in design Cabra station which would be half way between the proposed Heuston West and Glasnevin stations?

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547330#Comment_121547330

Which is great. I merely asked the question here on how many additional stops people would like in the city centre/canal environs.

I said 2 to 3 and we got some lectures on S Bahns

spacetweek

In German cities (e.g. Berlin) the city centre S-bahn stations are fairly close and it's clear that some people will only take them 1 or 2 stops. They are treated like Metro in all but name. Our DART system is evolving in a similar way, in fact Grand Canal Dock and Clontarf Road are infills added after the original DART opened in order to make this happen.

As for Phoenix Park, one option would be to straighten the line as it passed through an infill station. I do genuinely believe a station here would be very valuable.

spillit67

The approach seems to be green field and brown field sites getting priority. This makes sense as we can fix some of the mistakes of the past and densify these areas.

But it seems to lack imagination to think that just because there’s mediocre density in a place now that it won’t improve. You can see all along the DART where infill developments went in.

This isn’t like much of SW where we have that problem of mediocre sprawl and high costs to put in light or heavy rail. This is a ready made line.

pk1991

Does anybody know where we are in terms of Dart+?

So planning permission, tender for construction etc. so we can get moving :)

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121596648#Comment_121596648

DART+ West completed it's oral hearing and could have it's RO granted in the spring time, maybe around paddies day. At the same time Irish Rail are tendering for design and build contracts for some elements of the project and they intend to commence with building some of the project with in house staff and expertise. I would expect some construction in 2024 even if minor and full swing construction by 2025

DART+ South West has yet to have it's oral hearing but given metrolink announcement it is unlikely to happen before the summer and then maybe an RO will be granted by the end of the year. Perhaps some construction in late 2025

DART+ Coastal North are still having public consultation, perhaps they'll lodge RO by the end of 2024 with construction optimistically in 2026 depending on funding

DART+ Coastal South; unofficially de-scoped, re-scoped or cancelled as a result of the NTA not wanting to tackle the D4 nimbys. a separate project to improve Bray to Greystones may hapen in the future.

goingnowhere

DART+ Coastal North was to be submitted in end 2023, but nothing happened...