DART+ (DART Expansion)

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991904#Comment_121991904

Depending on how old those timetables are, there may not have been Pelletstown, Navan Road Parkway, or even Drumcondra slowing down the Commuter/Arrow trains requiring the InterCity to slow down as well.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990049#Comment_121990049

i'm not in the minority at all.
1 article surveying a couple of people who we don't know exactly what they were told or asked or how they were asked is meaningless.
you can ask a question multiple ways and get different answers, it's a well known tactic for surveying purposes, nothing bad or wrong in it as it can give interesting perspectives in relation to the likes of political views ETC.
a tiny minority of daily users are happy for what is claimed to be a trade off, a trade off which if it was genuinely that, is unnecessary.

in exchange for something that ultimately is unlikely to be delivered dispite the claims, something they could be given the whole way instead.
what irish rail did 10 or 40 years ago is very relevant.

so you haven't provided any actual valid point here which begs the question as to why you bothered quoting me given i left the thread due to the fact i have already been on this roundabout plenty of times before, with the same arguments and i've better things to do.

bikeman1

I'm aware that the network was less congested and less stations (Clontarf Rd., Pelletstown, Navan Rd. Parkway, Clongriffin etc.), but the running is slower now between stations on the DART that were always there.

Nobody can say that the DART flies along between stations. As I say, it just trundles across the city. I'm not talking about the city centre, but further out. With DART West, the times need to be tightened up significantly over the current sluggish diesels on the route. S-Bahn's regularly hit the of platforms at 80-100kph and make a smooth stop at the station. Outside leaf fall, the DART should be doing this too, but they don't. Also, there is a lot of dwell time too and re-releasing of doors, that could be tightened up as well.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992422#Comment_121992422

I think ultimately, on this basis they really should be looking at the terminating station being Bray rather than Greystones. Rosslare → Bray to then have the option of changing onto Metrolink/Dart+ makes far more sense imho. IÉ are kicking the can firmly down the road not resolving the Bray head issue.

Reversal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991917#Comment_121991917

Thanks for the reply. Yeah hopefully four tracking all the way to Hueston will help on that side. Maybe not much can be done after that, may as well be grateful for the tunnel service as it is!

Not unusual on the service for Hazelhatch to Hueston to be shorter than Hueston to Connolly.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992706#Comment_121992706

Metrolink won't open for nearly 10 years. Even if they were to resurrect the plan to upgrade the green line to Sandyford to metro standard, that's probably another 10 years. Luas to Bray is probably at least 15 years away now, for it to be upgraded to Metro as well you could be talking 30 years. We might as well be discussing the colonisation of Mars.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992925#Comment_121992925

By then the line will have fallen into the sea at Booterstown, Blackrock and Bray Head.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993216#Comment_121993216

maybe then its will force them to quad track on stilts.

danfrancisco83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992925#Comment_121992925

Nearly 10 years? I thought 2037 was the current most optimistic date?

KrisW1001

Distance between stations makes a big difference too. Munich S-Bahn does its central tunnelled segment (Hauptbahnhof to Ostbahnhof) at a blistering 26 km/h average: 9 minutes to travel 4km, with four intermediate stops. Stops are only around 750 m apart here, making the S-Bahn more like a metro service: the effect this has on straight-through travellers is one reason why a second, express, S-Bahn tunnel is being built. (Metrolink can have shorter inter-stop distances without killing the journey times because its smaller trains don't need to stay standing on the platform for as long)

DART has most stations over 1km apart. Connolly and Tara are 860 m apart, but Tara to Pearse is only 580 m. Even the fastest trains have no time to get up to speed and back down in that distance.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992608#Comment_121992608

Part of the problem may be the version of Automatic Train Protection used on the DART: it's very restrictive, and obsolete. Replacement by the new ETCS may help.

I find that station dwell times are very long on the DART, especially noticeable at stations with few getting on or off. Not hel.ped by passengers being slow to get to the doors prior of the train stopping

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993327#Comment_121993327

DART has most stations over 1km apart. Connolly and Tara are 860 m apart, but Tara to Pearse is only 580 m. Even the fastest trains have no time to get up to speed and back down in that distance

Just to add, the track condition between Connolly and Pearse is poor. Lots of bounce in the rails as the sleepers are moving, rails not welded and some of the sleepers are wood. You can see some of the ties are broken too. The vibration and loudness of the banging as trains pass by is quite severe.

I'm guessing that portion of the line, is to busy and to awkward to fix up.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993454#Comment_121993454

they close parts of the Dart line on long weekends more often than not. They could easily close and relay Connolly-Pearse if it is that bad.

Zebra3

Not like the line is running 24/7 either.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992460#Comment_121992460

It’s very clear.

They asked them about the mooted proposal on the shuttle service and increased DARTs.

There was naturally more trepidation from those who are infrequent users and with bags.

Funny how the Irish Times are all of a sudden in on this conspiracy.

The entire policy formation of transport in this country has greatly changed in the last 20 years. John Lynch is long gone.

Once again, I’d highlight that when other bodies looked at this they came to exactly the same conclusion.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993454#Comment_121993454

The Loop Line from Connolly to Pearse is virtually all a bridge, and I presume wooden sleepers have something to do with weight and perhaps lessen the transmission of shocks to the structure from passing trains. As far as I am aware, it's not all that long since the track was renewed.

The line speed is the same as it always was, 30 mph (50 kph), and the distance between stations is so short that there is very little to gain from raising it. CWR is not a big issue in this hase (in my opinion), apart from lessening shocks as trains pass over rail joints.

spillit67

1 hr 55 Enterprise services envisaged from the new train sets ordered.

Not clear on what line improvements this represents, it mentions battery and electric sections of the line which would be DART+.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-68744414.amp

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993519#Comment_121993519

True
I wonder does the confined space of the bridge mean its more difficult to work in?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995789#Comment_121995789

That makes sense actually. I doubt it's weight given the trains pass over it, but its probably more to do with the absolute depth the sleeper can go into the ballast. IE they cannot dig into the top of the bridge to lay most ballast, and they can't just lay more ballast as the track height would be to high for the platforms.

In any case it's moving a lot. When the tracks move it adds wear and tear or the trains and pounds the rails. I suppose if it was an easy fix it would have been done. but given the trains move slow enough across it, it's probably low down on the list of things to do.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996008#Comment_121996008

Slightly problem is that they haven't been ordered yet…

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996008#Comment_121996008

So that tender has been out couple of years now.
It's been discussed on other threads. The spec for 8 trains is VERY Niche.

Some of the guys here think they'd use something like a 222 that's similar to UK Stock, I personally don't think that'll work given the spec.

No one seems to be going for the tender (Bigger better contracts in mainland EU I suppose)

Here's the tender:
https://www.etenders.gov.ie/epps/cft/prepareViewCfTWS.do?resourceId=2440344

This is a call to competition by IARNROD EIREANN (IE) and NORTHERN IRELAND RAILWAYS COMPANY LIMITED (NI Railways) for the establishment of an 8 Year, Single Party Framework Agreement for the procurement of new Enterprise vehicles (Enterprise Fleet Replacement Agreement) required for the replacement of the existing Enterprise Fleet (the Contract). Along with procurement of the rolling stock, the scope of the procurement process will also include a maintenance contract in respect of technical support services and spares supply in relation to the new rolling stock (Maintenance Contract). IE and NI Railways (the Contracting Entity) now wish to initially procure 8 new trainsets up to a maximum of 200m in length to operate an hourly service between Dublin and Belfast. It is planned to have the entire new fleet in service in 2028 to 2029 and to deliver the end to end journey sub 2 hours or better on the existing infrastructure. Initial traction power will be Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) Battery Electric (using the existing 1.5 kV DC OHLE) with the train designed to transition to a net zero carbon operation during its life by the removal of the diesel power generation for replacement with dual OHLE power supply equipment. The trains will operate on 1600mm track gauge, will operate in full length formation of a maximum of 200m in length and will be required to meet other gauging requirements of the Irish Rail - NI Railways network.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058176050/cross-border-review-of-rail-network-officially-launched

cgcsb

Not sure if I've ever heard of such a thing, Battery electric, OHLE dual voltage and Deisel all in one unit. Far simpler to commit to electrifying Drogheda-Newry at 25kV and allow for interchange with an NIR diesel service, so the new fleet should just be a dual voltage electric train

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996342#Comment_121996342

If you've seen the war over suggesting an interchange on a regional service (Rosslare), just wait til what would happen if you suggested it on a premium Intercity service.

Stadler already make battery/mutli-voltage OHLE/diesel units.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996342#Comment_121996342

There are a number of train models with similar specs across Europe.

I suspect the batteries will be relatively small, compared to what the DART+ BEMU's are getting. Most likely to just benefit from charging using regenerative braking, so that the train can run on battery in the station, saving on fuel + emissions in and near stations. I wouldn't expect it to be able to travel long or far on those batteries like the DART+ BEMU's will.

BTW This sort of use of small batteries is becoming quiet normal on new order EMU's and DMU's

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996342#Comment_121996342

As mentioned by @L1011 Stadler do provide bespoke/modular/configurable setups for trains

The issue is (I think anyway)

1: The mid life transition from:
Diesel ICE / Battery / 1.5 kV DC OHLE
To:
25 kV AC OHLE / Battery / 1.5 kV DC OHLE

2: Limit of 200m for the train plus all the equipment + future equipment.

The TGV switches from 1.5 kV DC to 25 kV AC on the fly on the way out of Marseille, the equipment to do that has been available for quite some time.

I think the battery packs to power the traction motors, heat and light the train interior for prolonged periods of time, are the thing no one is willing to take a chance on.

They should just forget about the battery and electrify the entire line, just get it done with. Then that makes choosing trains much easier.

Personally as I see it, the only loco fit for the Job is the EURO9000, but it's fricken big, and probably very expensive and I don't think Irish Rail want push pull setup like the current enterprise

Bare in mind that the existing enterprise Diesel loco requires a van to power the passenger cars

Also will DART+ be 1.5 kV DC or 25 kV AC? would make sense to do 25kV AC with the new trains able to switch power systems

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996441#Comment_121996441

The British government aren't going to build electrified railways in NI though, they haven't even built a significant stretch of road there in a few decades.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996510#Comment_121996510

A4 and A6 dualling would be significant even by our standards.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996441#Comment_121996441

DART+ will be 1.5 kV DC, the longer distance intercity lines are proposed to be 25 kV AC.

Stadler are a great flexible option, but as you say their configuration might be an issue for 200m spec.

However they aren't the only option. There are some more traditional looking tri-mode options:

Already entered services it Italy:

https://www.railway-technology.com/news/hitachi-rail-blues-train-service/

CAF in London are doing a 10 tri-mode train order for LNER, which would be a similar size order as the Enterprise:

https://www.railway-technology.com/news/caf-to-deliver-ten-tri-mode-trains-for-lner/

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996510#Comment_121996510

True, but one would hope that if they saw us building it then they'd get the finger out and get the investment from "somewhere".

It should also be noted that a missing link that really should have been included in DART+ is the DART underground (Please don't go mental…. you know who you are :) )
Right now, it's impossible to get a train from Belfast to Cork. You have to get off the train, get a Luas, and get on a different train, and the times don't even match up. DART underground would have "correctly" linked up the 3 biggest cities on the Island by rail.

Zebra3

Who’s looking to get a train from Cork to Belfast?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996544#Comment_121996544

You called :)

No one in Cork cares about getting the train to Belfast! The numbers who make that trip are tiny and it wouldn't justify the cost of a tunnel.

If there was any demand for it, then one of the airlines would operate a Cork Airport to Belfast route. But there doesn't even seem to be enough demand for Aer Lingus to operate ATR's between the two airports despite their presence in both!

Now you could possibly improve the connection between the Belfast train and Cork train by routing say every second Cork train (at future 30 minutes frequency) through PPT to the Connolly/Docklands area. You can then have an easy change between the two. Though the real benefit of this would be a stop at Glasnevin to change to Metrolink for the airport, plus the docklands area as a suggestion. Both of those would generate much more traffic then going onto Belfast.

Also are we really mixing intercity trains into the DART Underground! Haven't we already made that mistake, mixing different types of services like that!