Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
DART+ (DART Expansion)
Comments
-
Thoughts?
However, now that things have changed completely and DART Underground looks unlikely to go ahead for a very long time, you have to think, why not have a bit of a hypothetical play around with the possibilities?
I really like your idea, I'm not an expert on the number of train paths available and whether your plan is entirely feasible but it makes a lot of sense. If it's possible to have Northern Line DART services continue as far as Grand Canal Dock it might slightly lessen the outrage that the cutting of the North-South DART line would inevitably bring about. Terminating Northern Line DART services at Connolly wouldn't fly politically.
As for the round-the-world trip via Phibsboro for Kildare line commuters on their way to Connolly, is that really as much of an issue as people make out? How much longer would it take than the red line? Surely a Hazelhatch-Bray line would open up all kinds of commuting possibilities for people. And you could of course continue to have services terminating at Heuston.0 -
Terminating Northern Line DART services at Connolly wouldn't fly politically..As for the round-the-world trip via Phibsboro for Kildare line commuters on their way to Connolly, is that really as much of an issue as people make out? How much longer would it take than the red line? Surely a Hazelhatch-Bray line would open up all kinds of commuting possibilities for people. And you could of course continue to have services terminating at Heuston.0
-
Your post is the kind of thing that a couple of years ago I would have thought of as pointless, highly irritating crayonism.
I would have thought the same of it myself - back then.Terminating Northern Line DART services at Connolly wouldn't fly politically.
I think there's more than enough capacity to extend those services to at least GCD.Which is a real shame because we could squeeze much more out of the network if only Maynooth-Bray DARTs were going over the loopline.
Again, I reckon Platform 3 at GCD could provide enough capacity for alternate, if not all DARTs from the Northern line also. If not, they could run to Pearse and rest in the sidings.0 -
chooochooo wrote: »Does it?
What I'm hearing is the stuck record that dreams the PPT is any use for regular commuter services.
I suspect that even if the whole 8th wonder of the world that the PPT clearly is was vapourised in a surprise nuclear attack....the same obsessives would be banging on about gold plating the walls/electrifying the line bla bla bla YAAAWN.
Why in the name of all that's bad and unholy would any even half brained Kildare line commuter want to go on a magical mystery tour of the Nth inner city past redundant industrial sites that have seen no life since the great flood to end up 30 mins later half way down the Nth wall to the UK..
when....
they can step out at Heuston and get the LUAS directly the OCS where they can collect 200 Euos in saved time and not have to pass through Cabra, Glasnevin, Phibsboro, Ballybough, East Wall and Docklands (because it won't be going anywhere near over capacity Connolly).
NOBODY will use it.
But....WTF, lets electrify the line anyway.
Just in case.
Of course no Heuston bound commuter works in the areas you mention? No CC bound commuters live in those areas either? The mere suggestion that a rail line through a fairly heavily populated area, connecting with so many other lines, is daft?
Listen, you hate filled troll, when you actually have a grasp of rail transport as opposed to what the thick media inform you about, come back and talk about it. Anything I've read from you here, is just littered with pathetic attempts to cause hassle without any substance.0 -
DWCommuter wrote: »Listen, you hate filled troll, when you actually have a grasp of rail transport as opposed to what the thick media inform you about, come back and talk about it.
Now really DW? That just ain't polite (even though the poster was talking rubbish).0 -
Advertisement
-
chooochooo wrote: »not going to happen.
turning the whole system upside down just to send trains through the PPT.
risible fantasy.
I didn't really pick up on this until I saw DWC's little tirade (an understable one, on mature reflection).
Please explain how on earth this turns the system upside down? It extends electrification to Drogheda, Maynooth and Hazelhatch and runs trains through a tunnel which already exists in order to link the country's two main heavy rail stations with heavy rail services. Now I'm no expert, but that seems logical to me.
We cannot afford DU, MN, etc. This might be achieveable. OK, so we won't get the Transport 21 golden egg that was a new station an Christchurch. That in itself would have meant we'd have to dig up half of the busiest, not to mention most archaeologically important (not that I give two hoots myself but some hippies would surely complain loudly) section of Dublin for three years.
Don't get me wrong, DU was a good plan on paper -and I still can't see why the whole network can't be privatised and let it be built at least partially under PPP - but this plan of mine should be done anyway. It's then only a matter of logistics to un-terminate the Northern line darts, send them to Docklands as per the DU plan and onwards, and reorganise the DART to a three-line affair.0 -
Please explain how your plan deals with the capacity issues -- mainly (a) on and around the Loopline Bridge and (b) around Inchicore-Heuston
If anything your plan seems like it would cause further capacity issues or there would be so few trains it would be unattractive.First, scrap cross-city intercity services. Start the Balbriggan, Drogheda, Dundalk, Rosslare services from their respective stations either side of the bridge. This frees up some of the bottleneck.
I don't know what you mean here? Are you trying to suggest outer commuter and intercity services should not run into the city and passengers should switch to Dart?I've never understood the lack of takeup of the idea of connecting services.
Having connecting services is one thing but making people to use connecting services just to get somewhere which should have a direct service is highly unattractive.I still can't see why the whole network can't be privatised
Can you give examples of where privatising rail networks has worked?Surely makes more sense though than spending €3-5 billion that we don't have on a project that we can't afford, will probably make a hames of and which would only deliver a single new station? (Christchurch)
In the mid-term can Dublin afford not to improve its rail backbone?
Where are you getting "€3-5 billion" from?
There's already Dart stations at Inchicore, Heuston, St Stephen's Green, the Docklands? And there's an underground platform at Pearse which has trains running from the south-western line to the northern line? That's should be news to most of us here! :pac:
And sure if we "will probably make a hames" Dart Underground, would the same not happen with your project?With the above exception, people can get to anywhere served by the proposed DU scheme with just one connection from most places in the city.
With one connection right now how do you get from, for example...
From anywhere west of Heuston to anywhere on any of the other Irish Rail lines or the Green Luas? Or anywhere on the Green Line to anywhere on the Northern Line?And if and when DU does come onstream (I may have called it a wet dream, but it's still a good project - we just can't pay for it right now and there are higher priorities) the PPT route will be electrified facilitating more choices of routes going forward.
What higher priorities are there than Dart Underground?0 -
Your post is the kind of thing that a couple of years ago I would have thought of as pointless, highly irritating crayonism.
Irritating? Why would you have thought that?
A contibution to a message board about a possible way to improve Dublin's transport. And you would have found it irritating.
What's that about?0 -
And no offence meant in my previous post, by the way, Etchyed.
I guess from your earlier contributions that you don't like the crayonists.
But you, an anti-crayonist, may be coming around to the crayonist point of view (that the time is right to have a fresh look at the plans for Dublin. Fresh thinking is needed. To paraphrase last week's Economist, "Public transport in Dublin has a great future, and always will.")
It's a difficult one, like that old battle between the realists and the surrealists. Or the impressionists and the expressionists.
Even the fetish for anti-An Lárism, as espoused by organisations like Platform11, may need to be explored. An Lárism may not be wrong.0 -
Please explain how your plan deals with the capacity issues -- mainly (a) on and around the Loopline Bridge and (b) around Inchicore-Heuston
See below.I don't know what you mean here? Are you trying to suggest outer commuter and intercity services should not run into the city and passengers should switch to Dart?
Yes, absolutely. DART services will be extended as follows:
Drogheda to Grand Canal Dock
Maynooth to Bray
Hazelhatch to Bray
Anybody living along the majority of the northern line can take the extended DART to the city centre stations. Maynooth DARTs will replace the current service operated by 29000 class DMUs.
Any non-DART services would be terminated at Connolly (Northern Line, Enterprise) Heuston (Kildare, Portlaoise, Cork, Limerick etc) and Grand Canal Dock (or Pearse if a third platform can be squeezed in where it used to be - Rosslare, Wicklow routes etc).
This multiplies out as I worked out above - one train every twelve minutes on each line equates to one train every four minutes over the loopline, with no need for any other services to use it as the DART services operating every four minutes will link the services together.
For example, you want to go from Trinity College to Hazelhatch. You can catch a Green Line LUAS to Broombridge, a DART to Drumcondra, and a second DART to Hazelhatch. Much more efficiently, you could now get on a Bray-Hazelhatch DART at Pearse.
Second example, you want to go from Landsowne Road to Dundalk. You catch a DART at Lansdowne, change at Connolly, and catch your connecting service.
Example three - you want to go from Dún Laoghaire to Malahide. You catch a DART, and change at any of the four city centre stations onto a Northbound DART rather than continuing to Maynooth or Hazelhatch.
With this setup, DARTs connecting the city stations operate extremely frequently and twelve minute intervals is still a perfectly acceptable wait for your particular train if you're going further afield. This could be reduced further to about 11 minutes with the current signalling setup, as the maximum hournly number of movements over the loopline is sixteen.Having connecting services is one thing but making people to use connecting services just to get somewhere which should have a direct service is highly unattractive.
Connecting services are a fact of life. The "An Lárism" that is mentioned in the post above this one is not necessarily a bad thing, but it has led to a culture where people expect not to have to connect to get to where they want to go. It is an extremely easy thing to change trains and if it's possible to cater for the masses but not for everyone, but to do it some people need to change trains, as per my suggestion above, then so bloody well be it.Can you give examples of where privatising rail networks has worked?
Not many. But if IÉ are allowed contnue to run the network backwards into the dark ages, the alternative isn't very attractive. The organisation needs to eb de-unionised and radically reformed or abolished and let someone motivated by profit do the job under close state supervision. End of, in my opinion.In the mid-term can Dublin afford not to improve its rail backbone?
Possibly. But in the short term we simply can't afford to. This project I'm suggesting would be an additional one to DU, not a permanent replacement for it. I still think DU is an intelligently planned and viable project, but not one we have the cash to build in the near future. I would be advocating my suggestion above even if DU had been built. Then, we would have the possibility of an orbital rail line around the city centre, connecting with the Luas at different points. Borderline orgasmic for some on here, I knowWhere are you getting "€3-5 billion" from?
That was the figure mentioned on here, and given that for the DPT 5km of twin bore tunnel cost €4.6bn, I would say that double that, in the current non-boom climate, would be of comparable cost. I could be way off, and stand open to correction.There's already Dart stations at Inchicore, Heuston, St Stephen's Green, the Docklands? And there's an underground platform at Pearse which has trains running from the south-western line to the northern line? That's should be news to most of us here! :pac:
There are DART stations already at Pearse, Heuston. Stephen's Green would be served in the short term by the Luas BXD which looks certain to go ahead. Inchicore is a matter of building a station over the current line as has been done at Phoenix Park, Cheery Orchard and Parkwest, Clongriffin, etc etc.And sure if we "will probably make a hames" Dart Underground, would the same not happen with your project?
Quite simply - there's less to make a hames of. At least a surface line, unlike the DPT, can't spring a leakWith one connection right now how do you get from, for example...
From anywhere west of Heuston to anywhere on any of the other Irish Rail lines or the Green Luas? Or anywhere on the Green Line to anywhere on the Northern Line?
One connection to anywhere on the heavy rail network in Dublin. Two to anywhere on Rail or Luas.
If broombridge wasn't located about a km west of the junction between the Maynooth line and PPT spur, that would be different - one connection to anywehere on the rail network - whether heavy or LRT - would of course be possible.What higher priorities are there than Dart Underground?
Infrastructurally, not many. But nationally, we owe the EU about a hundred million euro and the banks a good bit more. I think we need to shelve massive infrastructural projects in favour of improving and maintaining what we have, in the short term, in as much as the population growth allows.0 -
Advertisement
-
-
DWCommuter wrote: »After consideration.
It's as polite as the poster deserves.
That may be, but please don't go vigilante again, DW. That's how flame wars break out on forums. Hit the report post button if you've a problem. Thanks.0 -
Apologies if this has been discussed before but why is it that the outer tracks on the KRP are the faster intercity tracks?
Surely it makes more sense to have the northern two tracks as the fast tracks and the southern tracks as the slow ones as they're the ones which will eventually enter the DU tunnel.
By having the most southern track as a fast track creates an unnecessary track crossing when the slow tracks will enter the tunnel at Inchicore.
Or have I totally gotten the wrong end of the stick?0 -
Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »Apologies if this has been discussed before but why is it that the outer tracks on the KRP are the faster intercity tracks?
Surely it makes more sense to have the northern two tracks as the fast tracks and the southern tracks as the slow ones as they're the ones which will eventually enter the DU tunnel.
By having the most southern track as a fast track creates an unnecessary track crossing when the slow tracks will enter the tunnel at Inchicore.
Or have I totally gotten the wrong end of the stick?
I think safety is the idea there. The fast trains are on the outer tracks, traveling beside slower trains going in the same direction. This seriously reduces the possibility of a high speed head on collision.0 -
I think safety is the idea there. The fast trains are on the outer tracks, traveling beside slower trains going in the same direction. This seriously reduces the possibility of a high speed head on collision.0
-
I was sure I posted a reply from my phone, but I guess it did not work...See below.
Yes, absolutely. DART services will be extended as follows:
Drogheda to Grand Canal Dock
Maynooth to Bray
Hazelhatch to Bray
What are you doing with commuter services beyond those places?
With or without including the other and outer commuter services (ie commuter services from beyond the places you listed), how do you fit Intercity services from Belfast and Sligo and your Darts from the Maynooth, Kildare, and Northern lines into Connelly Station? You seem to think the Loopline Is the only congestion problem, it's not.
What about between Inchicore and Heuston -- how are you going to fit all the Intercity services and your extra suburban services in the form of Darts?Connecting services are a fact of life. The "An Lárism" that is mentioned in the post above this one is not necessarily a bad thing, but it has led to a culture where people expect not to have to connect to get to where they want to go. It is an extremely easy thing to change trains and if it's possible to cater for the masses but not for everyone, but to do it some people need to change trains, as per my suggestion above, then so bloody well be it.
If the "masses" go anywhere, they go to the city to work, shop, eat, be entertained, watch matches etc.
It's a "fact of life" that the city centre is still the largest by far employment area by far and it's the highest density of homes.Not many. But if IÉ are allowed contnue to run the network backwards into the dark ages, the alternative isn't very attractive. The organisation needs to eb de-unionised and radically reformed or abolished and let someone motivated by profit do the job under close state supervision. End of, in my opinion.
Let's forget that privatisation has been the cause of deaths and other major problems in the UK... why not... :rolleyes:Possibly. But in the short term we simply can't afford to. This project I'm suggesting would be an additional one to DU, not a permanent replacement for it. I still think DU is an intelligently planned and viable project, but not one we have the cash to build in the near future. I would be advocating my suggestion above even if DU had been built. Then, we would have the possibility of an orbital rail line around the city centre, connecting with the Luas at different points. Borderline orgasmic for some on here, I know
The question was "In the mid-term can Dublin afford not to improve its rail backbone?"... if the answer is "possibly" and that's leaning towards 'yes', and the project has such high return value, then it starts to become crazy not to go with DU.
Your suggestion in general shows that you don't fully understand the reasons for DU. Your proposals are not additional to DU, they can't be -- they are not compatible with the ideas behind DU.That was the figure mentioned on here, and given that for the DPT 5km of twin bore tunnel cost €4.6bn, I would say that double that, in the current non-boom climate, would be of comparable cost. I could be way off, and stand open to correction.
What has the Port Tunnel got to do with it?
How about sourcing a figure rather than leaving it up to others to correct you?There are DART stations already at Pearse, Heuston. Stephen's Green would be served in the short term by the Luas BXD which looks certain to go ahead. Inchicore is a matter of building a station over the current line as has been done at Phoenix Park, Cheery Orchard and Parkwest, Clongriffin, etc etc.
As already said: The current Dart station at Pearse is not comparable with having an interchange of two Dart lines going in different directions.
There is no Dart at Heuston, not sure how you think there is. And I'm not sure Heuston would work into your plan.
BXD is nothing like DU's high capacity Dart route -- different direction and route, different type of service, and different capacity.
Building a station at Inchicore on the current congested line which would divert northwards into the PPT is nothing like a route directly off the four-tracked section and then underground into Heuston and the hart of the city and the Docklands and off onto the Northern line.
No mention of Docklands? One of largest employment areas and which has had a 85.4% population rise since the last census and there's still room for development.
Christchurch is by far not the only new station.
Also, it's not just the new stations, it's what DU will do for the whole Dublin heavy and light rail network, and beyond that what it'll do for the public transport network. This is where your talk of connecting services would be real.Quite simply - there's less to make a hames of. At least a surface line, unlike the DPT, can't spring a leak
You mostly seem to be playing a game of rhetoric.
Otherwise, using your hyperbole measures, surely, your idea has the largest potential for death given the increased number of at grade crossing of different lines.0 -
I didn't really mean to get into a massive debate about my hypothetical short term solution, but I'll address monument's second trance of interrogations
Let me preface – while I've done nearly half a degree in transport Operations, I'm by no means an industry expert in rail but I do have a vested interest. I'm not a total Walter Mitty taling out of my arse either, though.
What are you doing with commuter services beyond those places?
With or without including the other and outer commuter services (ie commuter services from beyond the places you listed), how do you fit Intercity services from Belfast and Sligo and your Darts from the Maynooth, Kildare, and Northern lines into Connelly Station? You seem to think the Loopline Is the only congestion problem, it's not.
What about between Inchicore and Heuston -- how are you going to fit all the Intercity services and your extra suburban services in the form of Darts?
As for Connolly, you'd now have no need for Maynooth Commuter, so it's Longford, Sligo and Northern Line Only. Platform 1 – Dundalk Trains, Platform 2 – Enterprise, Platform 3 – Longford/Sligo routes. Seriously easy. Platforms 4-7 would be redesigned as 4 through platforms linking onto the loopline (Platofrm 4 may or may not work with this idea, I'm not an engineer).
If the "masses" go anywhere, they go to the city to work, shop, eat, be entertained, watch matches etc.
It's a "fact of life" that the city centre is still the largest by far employment area by far and it's the highest density of homes.
Which is why with my idea I've routed every train TO the city centre, just not THROUGH it. If you read the diagram, you'll see that. The only place not served under my idea that would be by DU remains Christchurch.
Let's forget that privatisation has been the cause of deaths and other major problems in the UK... why not...
Can. Worms. Not opening.
The question was "In the mid-term can Dublin afford not to improve its rail backbone?"... if the answer is "possibly" and that's leaning towards 'yes', and the project has such high return value, then it starts to become crazy not to go with DU.
Your suggestion in general shows that you don't fully understand the reasons for DU. Your proposals are not additional to DU, they can't be -- they are not compatible with the ideas behind DU.
That depends on your definitiopn of mide-term, which to me means 5-10 years. In the short term, 0-5 years, we simply don't have the billions to throw at DU. Even if we did, my idea is a cheaper and more immediate option which I still think should be done in tandem in some way shape or form, I haven't had time to have a look at how it might be integrated) with DU.
As already said: The current Dart station at Pearse is not comparable with having an interchange of two Dart lines going in different directions.
There is no Dart at Heuston, not sure how you think there is. And I'm not sure Heuston would work into your plan.
BXD is nothing like DU's high capacity Dart route -- different direction and route, different type of service, and different capacity.
Building a station at Inchicore on the current congested line which would divert northwards into the PPT is nothing like a route directly off the four-tracked section and then underground into Heuston and the hart of the city and the Docklands and off onto the Northern line.
No mention of Docklands? One of largest employment areas and which has had a 85.4% population rise since the last census and there's still room for development.
Docklands would not be able to continue in its current existance until DU is build, because it's a terminus at present. Dunboyne trains would probably have be shuttle to Clonsilla too, because there wouldn't be the capacity on the Maynooth branch. There's a falw in my plan, actually :P
Christchurch is by far not the only new station.
Also, it's not just the new stations, it's what DU will do for the whole Dublin heavy and light rail network, and beyond that what it'll do for the public transport network. This is where your talk of connecting services would be real.
I agree with you! But my rationale for my own suggestion is, if we have the infrastructure, why not use it. Silly not to, especially when it's going to be at LEAST six years before DU is running.
You mostly seem to be playing a game of rhetoric.
Otherwise, using your hyperbole measures, surely, your idea has the largest potential for death given the increased number of at grade crossing of different lines.
Ah here, that's just pure speculation. A major problem with IÉ's network is inefficient signalling leading to reduced capacity – the whole thing would need to be upgraded fopr my crayoning to work and we both know that.0 -
It's a simple enough thing to fit an houly service (that's presumign an Enterprise and Dundalk Commuter each 2-hourly) in between trains running every 12 minutes at peak.
You seriously are underestimating peak trains on the line from Connolly. At the moment, there are 9 trains between Howth Junction and Malahide in the morning peak between 7.09 and 8.09, 6 DARTs and 3 Drogheda trains. That means that it is certainly not simple to fit in the Enterprise, especially as it shares track with commuter trains from Drogheda on.
There needs to be capacity enhancements allowing overtaking to allow a frequent DART and fast commuter and Enterprise services to co-exist.
Also, the Port Tunnel cost 750 million in total, with 450 million in direct construction costs, which is nowhere near the 4.6 billion you claim, so really, it looks like you haven't done your homework.0 -
Just to point out that the entire section from Malahide/Howth to Lansdowne Road is currently being resignalled to facilitate up to 20 trains per hour. This is due to be completed next year.
The middle platform at Grand Canal Dock will become a turnback platform and the two outer platforms will be served by the running lines, thus eliminating all the conflicting moves that any train terminating at Pearse currently makes.
http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/city_centre_resignalling.asp0 -
Edit: Deserves a better reply...
Thanks for the reply sdeire, on the main point of I'd echo Cool Mo D's post -- so I'll just leave it to him.
Between Inchicore and Heuston it could be worse you have your extra Darts, Intercity from most of the country and mid and longer range commuter services not covered in the Dart expansion.That depends on your definitiopn of mide-term, which to me means 5-10 years. In the short term, 0-5 years, we simply don't have the billions to throw at DU. Even if we did, my idea is a cheaper and more immediate option which I still think should be done in tandem in some way shape or form, I haven't had time to have a look at how it might be integrated) with DU.
5-10 years would be around what I mean. The full focus in the meanwhile should be on the other elements of the wider Dart Underground project.
Your plan is a distinct diversion of limited funding and resources, and not really doable.Ah here, that's just pure speculation. A major problem with IÉ's network is inefficient signalling leading to reduced capacity – the whole thing would need to be upgraded fopr my crayoning to work and we both know that.
Sorry, when I see silly arguments / rhetoric -- like your's on not building a tunnel just in case there's leaks -- I tend try to mirror the silly logic of those arguments to show how silly the original was.If you read the diagram, you'll see that. The only place not served under my idea that would be by DU remains Christchurch.
If you're comparing your plan to DU (which you first were) none of the areas are served in the same way.
You can't compare current (or your plan's) level of service to DU.0 -
Advertisement
-
You seriously are underestimating peak trains on the line from Connolly. At the moment, there are 9 trains between Howth Junction and Malahide in the morning peak between 7.09 and 8.09, 6 DARTs and 3 Drogheda trains. That means that it is certainly not simple to fit in the Enterprise, especially as it shares track with commuter trains from Drogheda on.
There needs to be capacity enhancements allowing overtaking to allow a frequent DART and fast commuter and Enterprise services to co-exist.
Also, the Port Tunnel cost 750 million in total, with 450 million in direct construction costs, which is nowhere near the 4.6 billion you claim, so really, it looks like you haven't done your homework.
Serious typo on the DPT mullarky. 4.6km, not €bn...im a tool for overestimating when I knew that damn well. Bah. Lack of homework/rookie error.
Moving on - the Northern Line. 9 Commuters, 6 Darts, 3 Drogheda Commuters = 18 movements per hour. Basically my entire budget for the loopline, not even including the Maynooth OR Hazelhatch lines.
Yeah, DU is needed so.0 -
Is there any end in sight to the resignalling project? Seems like it's been going on for ages.0
-
Moving on - the Northern Line. 9 Commuters, 6 Darts, 3 Drogheda Commuters = 18 movements per hour. Basically my entire budget for the loopline, not even including the Maynooth OR Hazelhatch lines.
Yeah, DU is needed so.
Come back here, sdeire, don't give up on your idea.
The Dart underground project would be nice to have, but - let's face it -it's not going to happen for a very long time.
So other proposals need to be looked at for the long "interim" period, including yours.
Now I don't know where you're getting 18 movements per hour from the above. The resignalling project will increase potential movements to 20 trains per hour in each direction, i.e. 40 movements overall in theory. It probably will be a good bit lower than this because of the conflict between the northside DART line and the Maynooth line, but still better than it currently is.
So, between 7.09 and 8.09 there are 18 movements in total related to the northern commuter and northern DART services. With a theoretical maximum of 40 movements per hour over the bridge that should still leave room for some presence of your Maynooth and Hazelhatch trains.
Keep at it.0 -
-
strassenwo!f wrote: »Come back here, sdeire, don't give up on your idea.
The Dart underground project would be nice to have, but - let's face it -it's not going to happen for a very long time.
So other proposals need to be looked at for the long "interim" period, including yours.
Now I don't know where you're getting 18 movements per hour from the above. The resignalling project will increase potential movements to 20 trains per hour in each direction, i.e. 40 movements overall in theory. It probably will be a good bit lower than this because of the conflict between the northside DART line and the Maynooth line, but still better than it currently is.
So, between 7.09 and 8.09 there are 18 movements in total related to the northern commuter and northern DART services. With a theoretical maximum of 40 movements per hour over the bridge that should still leave room for some presence of your Maynooth and Hazelhatch trains.
Keep at it.
You have to remember though that every train movement off the Maynooth line at Connolly blocks one northern line path heading north.
It's not quite as simple as you make out.0 -
You have to remember though that every train movement off the Maynooth line at Connolly blocks one northern line path heading north.
It's not quite as simple as you make out.
I'm not making out that it is simple. In my original post I wrote:It probably will be a good bit lower than this because of the conflict between the northside DART line and the Maynooth line, but still better than it currently is.
At the moment, there seem to be 11 trains (including Maynooth suburban) going North to South over the bridge between 07:10 and 08:10, and the current signalling allows 12. (And there are 8 northbound trains between 7:08 and 8:07)
So, if the signalling were to allow 20, as it will, it could be expected that 15 would be a reasonably possible number - even including all the conflicts.
This would allow the current arrangement of northern commuter and DART services to remain unchanged. And, say, 3 trains from Maynooth. This would still seem to leave room for 3 of sdeire's Hazelhatch trains.
No?0 -
strassenwo!f wrote: »Irritating? Why would you have thought that?
A contibution to a message board about a possible way to improve Dublin's transport. And you would have found it irritating.
What's that about?
(I've taken your second post into account, strassenwolf, despite just quoting the first)
Sorry, I've left this so long, I haven't been keeping up with this thread since I posted. As you've acknowledged, I have changed my mind about this but I'll try to explain why I used to find posts like sdeire's irritating.
During the few years (however brief and unsustainable they may have been) when DART Underground was a realistic, conceivable possibility, there were endless queues of uninformed people who would pipe up with comments along the lines of "shure we already have the Phoenix Park tunnel and the red line to link Heuston and Connolly".
These people failed to recognise that linking Heuston and Connolly wasn't the point. They failed to to recognise that the interconnector would more than double the capacity of Dublin's rail network by separating train paths. They failed to recognise that it would allow the DART (with its two new lines) to operate at metro-style frequencies. They failed to recognise that a DART line through the heart of the south city would be beneficial. And they failed to recognise the benefits of an integrated network of two DART lines and Metro North (I'll take the liberty of lumping these people in with the "shure nobody needs to get from the airport to Stephen's Green" crowd)
Some of them can claim that they didn't believe in DART Underground because they foresaw the crash and knew we'd never have the money. But that's only some, not many. Most simply lacked vision.
Back then, 9 times out of 10, the people who extolled the virtues and potential benefits of the PPT were the same people who missed the point of DART Underground. Of course, there are and were people who fully understand the benefits of the interconnector, but still think that the PPT should be utilised to its full extent (sdeire seems to be one of them, and I would say I am too). Sadly, those things used not to go hand in hand.
I hope that explains to you why I used to find posts about potential uses of the PPT irritating. It's because they were usually posted by idiots. Not an entirely reasonable standpoint, I accept, but that's the general feeling I had at the time.0 -
Etchyed, thank you for a fine post.
But, it isn't the ordinary punter on messageboards who decides what's built and what isn't, whether they "recognise" the merits of the projects or not. I write as a punter on a messageboard who was and is broadly in favour of DART underground and the metro.
Yet, from the emergence of the DART underground and metro plans in the early 2000's, nothing really emerged from either project. Ireland's richest years until 2007, and not a sausage. Whose fault was that? The messageboard punters?0 -
Back then, 9 times out of 10, the people who extolled the virtues and potential benefits of the PPT were the same people who missed the point of DART Underground.
I remember when I was on the P11 committee and we were pushing it, I never quite saw the point. One day, it was explained to me clearly and I realised how beneficial the project was. I think it's tough as the average chap has no idea how railways work, how complex signalling etc.
I would love to see this and MN go ahead but if it were one, I would chose this. While MN will bring benfits to a huge part of the city, this would be our first ever "integrated" transport platform, I even think it could get a more pro-rail stance in the City.0 -
Advertisement
-
paulm17781 wrote: »I remember when I was on the P11 committee and we were pushing it, I never quite saw the point. One day, it was explained to me clearly and I realised how beneficial the project was. I think it's tough as the average chap has no idea how railways work, how complex signalling etc.
I would love to see this and MN go ahead but if it were one, I would chose this. While MN will bring benfits to a huge part of the city, this would be our first ever "integrated" transport platform, I even think it could get a more pro-rail stance in the City.0
Advertisement