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DART+ (DART Expansion)
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DWCommuter wrote: »Listen, you hate filled troll, when you actually have a grasp of rail transport as opposed to what the thick media inform you about, come back and talk about it.
Now really DW? That just ain't polite (even though the poster was talking rubbish).
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Please explain how your plan deals with the capacity issues -- mainly (a) on and around the Loopline Bridge and (b) around Inchicore-Heuston
If anything your plan seems like it would cause further capacity issues or there would be so few trains it would be unattractive.First, scrap cross-city intercity services. Start the Balbriggan, Drogheda, Dundalk, Rosslare services from their respective stations either side of the bridge. This frees up some of the bottleneck.
I don't know what you mean here? Are you trying to suggest outer commuter and intercity services should not run into the city and passengers should switch to Dart?
I've never understood the lack of takeup of the idea of connecting services.
Having connecting services is one thing but making people to use connecting services just to get somewhere which should have a direct service is highly unattractive.I still can't see why the whole network can't be privatised
Can you give examples of where privatising rail networks has worked?Surely makes more sense though than spending €3-5 billion that we don't have on a project that we can't afford, will probably make a hames of and which would only deliver a single new station? (Christchurch)
In the mid-term can Dublin afford not to improve its rail backbone?
Where are you getting "€3-5 billion" from?
There's already Dart stations at Inchicore, Heuston, St Stephen's Green, the Docklands? And there's an underground platform at Pearse which has trains running from the south-western line to the northern line? That's should be news to most of us here! :pac:
And sure if we "will probably make a hames" Dart Underground, would the same not happen with your project?With the above exception, people can get to anywhere served by the proposed DU scheme with just one connection from most places in the city.
With one connection right now how do you get from, for example...
From anywhere west of Heuston to anywhere on any of the other Irish Rail lines or the Green Luas? Or anywhere on the Green Line to anywhere on the Northern Line?And if and when DU does come onstream (I may have called it a wet dream, but it's still a good project - we just can't pay for it right now and there are higher priorities) the PPT route will be electrified facilitating more choices of routes going forward.
What higher priorities are there than Dart Underground?0 -
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Please explain how your plan deals with the capacity issues -- mainly (a) on and around the Loopline Bridge and (b) around Inchicore-Heuston
See below.I don't know what you mean here? Are you trying to suggest outer commuter and intercity services should not run into the city and passengers should switch to Dart?
Yes, absolutely. DART services will be extended as follows:
Drogheda to Grand Canal Dock
Maynooth to Bray
Hazelhatch to Bray
Anybody living along the majority of the northern line can take the extended DART to the city centre stations. Maynooth DARTs will replace the current service operated by 29000 class DMUs.
Any non-DART services would be terminated at Connolly (Northern Line, Enterprise) Heuston (Kildare, Portlaoise, Cork, Limerick etc) and Grand Canal Dock (or Pearse if a third platform can be squeezed in where it used to be - Rosslare, Wicklow routes etc).
This multiplies out as I worked out above - one train every twelve minutes on each line equates to one train every four minutes over the loopline, with no need for any other services to use it as the DART services operating every four minutes will link the services together.
For example, you want to go from Trinity College to Hazelhatch. You can catch a Green Line LUAS to Broombridge, a DART to Drumcondra, and a second DART to Hazelhatch. Much more efficiently, you could now get on a Bray-Hazelhatch DART at Pearse.
Second example, you want to go from Landsowne Road to Dundalk. You catch a DART at Lansdowne, change at Connolly, and catch your connecting service.
Example three - you want to go from Dún Laoghaire to Malahide. You catch a DART, and change at any of the four city centre stations onto a Northbound DART rather than continuing to Maynooth or Hazelhatch.
With this setup, DARTs connecting the city stations operate extremely frequently and twelve minute intervals is still a perfectly acceptable wait for your particular train if you're going further afield. This could be reduced further to about 11 minutes with the current signalling setup, as the maximum hournly number of movements over the loopline is sixteen.Having connecting services is one thing but making people to use connecting services just to get somewhere which should have a direct service is highly unattractive.
Connecting services are a fact of life. The "An Lárism" that is mentioned in the post above this one is not necessarily a bad thing, but it has led to a culture where people expect not to have to connect to get to where they want to go. It is an extremely easy thing to change trains and if it's possible to cater for the masses but not for everyone, but to do it some people need to change trains, as per my suggestion above, then so bloody well be it.Can you give examples of where privatising rail networks has worked?
Not many. But if IÉ are allowed contnue to run the network backwards into the dark ages, the alternative isn't very attractive. The organisation needs to eb de-unionised and radically reformed or abolished and let someone motivated by profit do the job under close state supervision. End of, in my opinion.In the mid-term can Dublin afford not to improve its rail backbone?
Possibly. But in the short term we simply can't afford to. This project I'm suggesting would be an additional one to DU, not a permanent replacement for it. I still think DU is an intelligently planned and viable project, but not one we have the cash to build in the near future. I would be advocating my suggestion above even if DU had been built. Then, we would have the possibility of an orbital rail line around the city centre, connecting with the Luas at different points. Borderline orgasmic for some on here, I know
Where are you getting "€3-5 billion" from?
That was the figure mentioned on here, and given that for the DPT 5km of twin bore tunnel cost €4.6bn, I would say that double that, in the current non-boom climate, would be of comparable cost. I could be way off, and stand open to correction.There's already Dart stations at Inchicore, Heuston, St Stephen's Green, the Docklands? And there's an underground platform at Pearse which has trains running from the south-western line to the northern line? That's should be news to most of us here! :pac:
There are DART stations already at Pearse, Heuston. Stephen's Green would be served in the short term by the Luas BXD which looks certain to go ahead. Inchicore is a matter of building a station over the current line as has been done at Phoenix Park, Cheery Orchard and Parkwest, Clongriffin, etc etc.And sure if we "will probably make a hames" Dart Underground, would the same not happen with your project?
Quite simply - there's less to make a hames of. At least a surface line, unlike the DPT, can't spring a leakWith one connection right now how do you get from, for example...
From anywhere west of Heuston to anywhere on any of the other Irish Rail lines or the Green Luas? Or anywhere on the Green Line to anywhere on the Northern Line?
One connection to anywhere on the heavy rail network in Dublin. Two to anywhere on Rail or Luas.
If broombridge wasn't located about a km west of the junction between the Maynooth line and PPT spur, that would be different - one connection to anywehere on the rail network - whether heavy or LRT - would of course be possible.What higher priorities are there than Dart Underground?
Infrastructurally, not many. But nationally, we owe the EU about a hundred million euro and the banks a good bit more. I think we need to shelve massive infrastructural projects in favour of improving and maintaining what we have, in the short term, in as much as the population growth allows.0 -
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I was sure I posted a reply from my phone, but I guess it did not work...See below.
Yes, absolutely. DART services will be extended as follows:
Drogheda to Grand Canal Dock
Maynooth to Bray
Hazelhatch to Bray
What are you doing with commuter services beyond those places?
With or without including the other and outer commuter services (ie commuter services from beyond the places you listed), how do you fit Intercity services from Belfast and Sligo and your Darts from the Maynooth, Kildare, and Northern lines into Connelly Station? You seem to think the Loopline Is the only congestion problem, it's not.
What about between Inchicore and Heuston -- how are you going to fit all the Intercity services and your extra suburban services in the form of Darts?Connecting services are a fact of life. The "An Lárism" that is mentioned in the post above this one is not necessarily a bad thing, but it has led to a culture where people expect not to have to connect to get to where they want to go. It is an extremely easy thing to change trains and if it's possible to cater for the masses but not for everyone, but to do it some people need to change trains, as per my suggestion above, then so bloody well be it.
If the "masses" go anywhere, they go to the city to work, shop, eat, be entertained, watch matches etc.
It's a "fact of life" that the city centre is still the largest by far employment area by far and it's the highest density of homes.Not many. But if IÉ are allowed contnue to run the network backwards into the dark ages, the alternative isn't very attractive. The organisation needs to eb de-unionised and radically reformed or abolished and let someone motivated by profit do the job under close state supervision. End of, in my opinion.
Let's forget that privatisation has been the cause of deaths and other major problems in the UK... why not... :rolleyes:Possibly. But in the short term we simply can't afford to. This project I'm suggesting would be an additional one to DU, not a permanent replacement for it. I still think DU is an intelligently planned and viable project, but not one we have the cash to build in the near future. I would be advocating my suggestion above even if DU had been built. Then, we would have the possibility of an orbital rail line around the city centre, connecting with the Luas at different points. Borderline orgasmic for some on here, I know
The question was "In the mid-term can Dublin afford not to improve its rail backbone?"... if the answer is "possibly" and that's leaning towards 'yes', and the project has such high return value, then it starts to become crazy not to go with DU.
Your suggestion in general shows that you don't fully understand the reasons for DU. Your proposals are not additional to DU, they can't be -- they are not compatible with the ideas behind DU.That was the figure mentioned on here, and given that for the DPT 5km of twin bore tunnel cost €4.6bn, I would say that double that, in the current non-boom climate, would be of comparable cost. I could be way off, and stand open to correction.
What has the Port Tunnel got to do with it?
How about sourcing a figure rather than leaving it up to others to correct you?There are DART stations already at Pearse, Heuston. Stephen's Green would be served in the short term by the Luas BXD which looks certain to go ahead. Inchicore is a matter of building a station over the current line as has been done at Phoenix Park, Cheery Orchard and Parkwest, Clongriffin, etc etc.
As already said: The current Dart station at Pearse is not comparable with having an interchange of two Dart lines going in different directions.
There is no Dart at Heuston, not sure how you think there is. And I'm not sure Heuston would work into your plan.
BXD is nothing like DU's high capacity Dart route -- different direction and route, different type of service, and different capacity.
Building a station at Inchicore on the current congested line which would divert northwards into the PPT is nothing like a route directly off the four-tracked section and then underground into Heuston and the hart of the city and the Docklands and off onto the Northern line.
No mention of Docklands? One of largest employment areas and which has had a 85.4% population rise since the last census and there's still room for development.
Christchurch is by far not the only new station.
Also, it's not just the new stations, it's what DU will do for the whole Dublin heavy and light rail network, and beyond that what it'll do for the public transport network. This is where your talk of connecting services would be real.Quite simply - there's less to make a hames of. At least a surface line, unlike the DPT, can't spring a leak
You mostly seem to be playing a game of rhetoric.
Otherwise, using your hyperbole measures, surely, your idea has the largest potential for death given the increased number of at grade crossing of different lines.0 -
I didn't really mean to get into a massive debate about my hypothetical short term solution, but I'll address monument's second trance of interrogations
Let me preface – while I've done nearly half a degree in transport Operations, I'm by no means an industry expert in rail but I do have a vested interest. I'm not a total Walter Mitty taling out of my arse either, though.
It's a simple enough thing to fit an houly service (that's presumign an Enterprise and Dundalk Commuter each 2-hourly) in between trains running every 12 minutes at peak.What are you doing with commuter services beyond those places?
With or without including the other and outer commuter services (ie commuter services from beyond the places you listed), how do you fit Intercity services from Belfast and Sligo and your Darts from the Maynooth, Kildare, and Northern lines into Connelly Station? You seem to think the Loopline Is the only congestion problem, it's not.
What about between Inchicore and Heuston -- how are you going to fit all the Intercity services and your extra suburban services in the form of Darts?
As for Connolly, you'd now have no need for Maynooth Commuter, so it's Longford, Sligo and Northern Line Only. Platform 1 – Dundalk Trains, Platform 2 – Enterprise, Platform 3 – Longford/Sligo routes. Seriously easy. Platforms 4-7 would be redesigned as 4 through platforms linking onto the loopline (Platofrm 4 may or may not work with this idea, I'm not an engineer).
If the "masses" go anywhere, they go to the city to work, shop, eat, be entertained, watch matches etc.
It's a "fact of life" that the city centre is still the largest by far employment area by far and it's the highest density of homes.
Which is why with my idea I've routed every train TO the city centre, just not THROUGH it. If you read the diagram, you'll see that. The only place not served under my idea that would be by DU remains Christchurch.
Let's forget that privatisation has been the cause of deaths and other major problems in the UK... why not...
Can. Worms. Not opening.
The question was "In the mid-term can Dublin afford not to improve its rail backbone?"... if the answer is "possibly" and that's leaning towards 'yes', and the project has such high return value, then it starts to become crazy not to go with DU.
Your suggestion in general shows that you don't fully understand the reasons for DU. Your proposals are not additional to DU, they can't be -- they are not compatible with the ideas behind DU.
That depends on your definitiopn of mide-term, which to me means 5-10 years. In the short term, 0-5 years, we simply don't have the billions to throw at DU. Even if we did, my idea is a cheaper and more immediate option which I still think should be done in tandem in some way shape or form, I haven't had time to have a look at how it might be integrated) with DU.
As already said: The current Dart station at Pearse is not comparable with having an interchange of two Dart lines going in different directions.
There is no Dart at Heuston, not sure how you think there is. And I'm not sure Heuston would work into your plan.
BXD is nothing like DU's high capacity Dart route -- different direction and route, different type of service, and different capacity.
Building a station at Inchicore on the current congested line which would divert northwards into the PPT is nothing like a route directly off the four-tracked section and then underground into Heuston and the hart of the city and the Docklands and off onto the Northern line.
No mention of Docklands? One of largest employment areas and which has had a 85.4% population rise since the last census and there's still room for development.
Docklands would not be able to continue in its current existance until DU is build, because it's a terminus at present. Dunboyne trains would probably have be shuttle to Clonsilla too, because there wouldn't be the capacity on the Maynooth branch. There's a falw in my plan, actually :P
Christchurch is by far not the only new station.
Also, it's not just the new stations, it's what DU will do for the whole Dublin heavy and light rail network, and beyond that what it'll do for the public transport network. This is where your talk of connecting services would be real.
I agree with you! But my rationale for my own suggestion is, if we have the infrastructure, why not use it. Silly not to, especially when it's going to be at LEAST six years before DU is running.
You mostly seem to be playing a game of rhetoric.
Otherwise, using your hyperbole measures, surely, your idea has the largest potential for death given the increased number of at grade crossing of different lines.
Ah here, that's just pure speculation. A major problem with IÉ's network is inefficient signalling leading to reduced capacity – the whole thing would need to be upgraded fopr my crayoning to work and we both know that.0 -
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