DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

We need both. Dublin needs both. Ireland needs both. We will get neither as we are a short sighted little country and we'll never amount to much in the long term. Sad to say it, but it's true. We piss about with these studies until the money is gone.

Real countries just get on with building stuff. Drove Berlin - Munich - Berlin at the weekend (not my ideal method!) and you can see the works to build the ICE line between the 2 cities at various points. They'll have it down to a 4.5 hour trip in a couple of years at a cost of multiple billions.

The German people (in general) see the value of (expensive) infrastructure. The Irish people, in general, do not. If we did, we would elect people that would build it for us.

1huge1

murphaph wrote: »

We need both. Dublin needs both. Ireland needs both. We will get neither as we are a short sighted little country and we'll never amount to much in the long term. Sad to say it, but it's true. We piss about with these studies until the money is gone.

Real countries just get on with building stuff. Drove Berlin - Munich - Berlin at the weekend (not my ideal method!) and you can see the works to build the ICE line between the 2 cities at various points. They'll have it down to a 4.5 hour trip in a couple of years at a cost of multiple billions.

The German people (in general) see the value of (expensive) infrastructure. The Irish people, in general, do not. If we did, we would elect people that would build it for us.

Personally I have mostly found it cheaper to fly to berlin from munich than going by ICE but thats a different story.

Germany does have the power of economies of scale in its favour (82million vs 4.5million) but that does not mean we cannot learn from them.

I agree that Irish people don't see the true value of infrastruture, (besides the motorway network perhaps), its a shame that the green party didn't push harder to get these projects going when they had the chance, the consultation process in Ireland is unbelievable sometimes.

dowlingm

It's not enough to say Ireland has to build. The obstacle isn't technical or financial - it's decision making. While people from rural Ireland can come into Dublin with a straight face and argue for motorways and railways from hamlet to hamlet while demanding this be done ahead of urban projects because "they got it already" and without co-payments or development in parallel, money will continue to be spent on items which will never give a decent return except to contractors and suppliers, many of which will be foreign (since we don't make steel in Ireland any more, for one thing).

You have people on boards.ie and elsewhere who will compare DART Underground - 6-8 EMUs per direction multiple times an hour - with a rail line which will support at most 2 DMUs 6 times per direction per day with a straight face. Even now the parity of esteem line of "balanced development" is said with a straight face, ridiculous ideas like the Tipp Casino don't die a death because the media can't resist a story no matter how stupid.

The point of infrastructure is not profit but it sure as hell must be bang for the buck, or as it can be put in this context passenger boardings and passenger-km per euro capital spend. DART Underground is not merely a heavy rail subway but a link between Kildare and Drogheda, Cork and Dundalk, while providing massive quantities of public transport seats to parts of Dublin like around Trinity and Christchurch where it will be hard to do so in any fashion other than underground.

Now, some people will read this and assume I mean that rural Ireland can never get anything. I grew up in rural Ireland so that isn't what I mean. What I mean is though, that rural Ireland can't get 6 lane motorways or 100mph railway lines. What it can get is appropriately sized infrastructure in response to development plans which are geared to it. If local representatives won't get on board with that then the money has to go to a Council who will.

Aard

dowlingm wrote: »

... If local representatives won't get on board with that then the money has to go to a Council who will.

That's exactly it. Everything is nationally funded, so there's no incentive for a council to give due consideration to whether or not it makes financial sense. At least if the Councils had to cough up a percentage, they'd me far more inclined to have a think about the value for money element. It's another problem with the ridiculously weak Local Authorities we have, whose primary source of income is national 'handouts' and local business rates -- both quite inefficient.

And when 'no' is said to the requests, Dublin is the bad guy, purely by virtue of the fact that it's the seat of government. People seem to forget that not all of the taxes generated in Dublin stay in Dublin (either absolutely or per capita). Or that Dublin is a city of 1,045,769 people. There is absolutely no comparison to any other city in the country (very maybe Cork). When it comes to infrastructure, a whole different tack needs to be taken with such a big city.

dowlingm

In Canada, very few projects get funded 100pc by higher government, provincial or federal. Even where it is, often there's a quid pro quo where the municipality pays 100pc of something else.

D.L.R.

1huge1 wrote: »

Germany does have the power of economies of scale in its favour (82million vs 4.5million) but that does not mean we cannot learn from them.

The Irish always use this as an excuse though - "ah we're a small nation". Its not a vaild excuse.

Plenty of small European countries are as developed as Germany, or better. Scandinavia, for example.

Nobody rationalises their mediocrity like the Irish, we're #1 there alright. :rolleyes:

dubhthach

Aard wrote: »

Or that Dublin is a city of 1,045,769 people....

Of course it doesn't help that population is spilt between 4 local authorities all of them powerless to actually raise their own funds and dependent on the "fix" from central-goverenment (Block grant)

When I was in Seattle couple of years ago (2007) they were in process of building rail link to airport, it was funded by adding 1-2% to Sales tax within the "urban boundary" (might have been county boundary?) on all transactions. Of course given that irish local authorities live on block grant they don't have to worry bout wasting taxpayers money, given that they just run back to central gov looking for more.

Victor

New drawings up for Kildare Route Project Phase 2 - not many changes. Now sure how they are working Lucan Luas. http://irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_route_project2.asp

Aard

Speaking of Lucan Luas: generally, as there's both CIE and the RPA doing rail stuff here (not to mention any other kind of infrastructure), do they tend to work together? I know that the SSG station will be collaborative, but for some reason I assumed that this was only because of its one-off magnitude.

Wild Bill

Victor wrote: »

New drawings up for Kildare Route Project Phase 2 - not many changes. Now sure how they are working Lucan Luas. http://irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_route_project2.asp

If the electrify from Hazlehatch to Inchicore in the current phase 2 and separate the DART service from the Intercity...then all the commuters from H'hatch inwards get dumped in Inchicore, waiting for DART underground!

:eek:

DWCommuter

Wild Bill wrote: »

If the electrify from Hazlehatch to Inchicore in the current phase 2 and separate the DART service from the Intercity...then all the commuters from H'hatch inwards get dumped in Inchicore, waiting for DART underground!

:eek:

Its cool. We have at least 20 years to work it out.

dowlingm

I'd still like to see a couple of Heuston platforms OHLEd. I'm pretty sure that will turn out useful one day.

strassenwo!f

Victor wrote: »

New drawings up for Kildare Route Project Phase 2 - not many changes. Now sure how they are working Lucan Luas. http://irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_route_project2.asp

Well, now that you're sure about how they are working Lucan Luas, Victor, would you care to tell us what the final plans are?

strassenwo!f

One issue which surprises me in relation to both the DART underground project and the metro north is that the Wikipedia pages for these do not have a page in Irish which summarises the projects. (The metro has a page in several languages - including Spanish, Portuguese, Polish, Russian and a few other languages I can't recognise - but, oddly, no Irish one).

I'd like to write one for either project, but unfortunately I don't have the language skills. But it is surprising that neither project has a page outlining the need for or aims of the project in the first national language.

Judgement Day

strassenwo!f wrote: »

One issue which surprises me in relation to both the DART underground project and the metro north is that the Wikipedia pages for these do not have a page in Irish which summarises the projects. (The metro has a page in several languages - including Spanish, Portuguese, Polish, Russian and a few other languages I can't recognise - but, oddly, no Irish one).

I'd like to write one for either project, but unfortunately I don't have the language skills. But it is surprising that neither project has a page outlining the need for or aims of the project in the first national language.

Can't imagine why you would want to but away you go.

http://www.all-translation.com/translation/irish/

Victor

Aard wrote: »

Speaking of Lucan Luas: generally, as there's both CIE and the RPA doing rail stuff here (not to mention any other kind of infrastructure), do they tend to work together? I know that the SSG station will be collaborative, but for some reason I assumed that this was only because of its one-off magnitude.

I get the impression that on day to day things that they do cooperate, e.g. in building this bridge (I think the current one is owned by the Council, not the railway), Irish Rail will willingly have their contractor do the bridge and fit the rails and ducts for the RPA. However, there have been some high-profile spats like CIÉ refusing access tot he Broadstone railway cutting so that the RPA could survey it for Luas.

Victor wrote: »

New drawings up for Kildare Route Project Phase 2 - not many changes. Now sure how they are working Lucan Luas. http://irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_route_project2.asp

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Well, now that you're sure about how they are working Lucan Luas, Victor, would you care to tell us what the final plans are?

Sorry, that should have read "Not sure how they are working Lucan Luas.".

dynamick

I think he means "not sure"

Cathaoirleach

strassenwo!f wrote: »

One issue which surprises me in relation to both the DART underground project and the metro north is that the Wikipedia pages for these do not have a page in Irish which summarises the projects.

http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/DART_Faoi_Thalamh
http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meitreo_Bhaile_%C3%81tha_Cliath

It's a start anyway.

Judgement Day

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/DART_Faoi_Thalamh
http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meitreo_Bhaile_%C3%81tha_Cliath

It's a start anyway.

I'm sure it's great but it will probably be about as much use as CIE's 1984 celebrations of 150 years of Irish railways - they came up with a name (in Irish) Traen 150 and did nothing further to mark the event. :rolleyes:

Cathaoirleach

Well maybe strassenwo!f will read them. At least I will have made one person happy.

strassenwo!f

Thanks Cathaoirleach for starting the page. Unfortunately I won't be able to contribute: my Irish skills peaked when I got a very charitable pass leaving cert D from the Department of Education many years ago, and I'm afraid it has been downhill ever since.:o

dubhthach

Article in Irish times today:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0812/1224302301839.html

Metro North and Dart Underground 'deferred'
FRANK McDONALD, Environment Editor

METRO NORTH and Dart Underground are to be dropped by the Government next month following a comprehensive review by Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar of “big ticket” transport projects.

According to well-placed sources, the two schemes will be “deferred” indefinitely on the basis that neither can be funded in the current climate, even under public-private partnership (PPP) arrangements.

Even though construction costs are considerably lower than they were during the boom and estimates for Metro North were a closely guarded secret, it is believed the scheme would cost at least €3 billion.

Given that Dart Underground – billed as the “missing link” that would transform Dublin’s disparate suburban rail services into a network – was likely to cost €2 billion, the combined total would be €5 billion-plus.

For political reasons, the term “deferred” will be used, rather than “abandoned” or “cancelled”, with Mr Varadkar holding out hope that both could be built when economic conditions improve.

CIÉ’s proposal for a rail spur to Dublin airport from the Dart line at Clongriffin in north Dublin is also widely seen as a non-runner. “It’s a daft idea and the cost would be enormous,” one source said.

But the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) is optimistic that the Government will go ahead with plans for a city centre link between the existing Luas lines, with a spur to Broombridge on the Maynooth line.

The link, known as Luas Line BXD, has already been the subject of an oral hearing by An Bord Pleanála and the board’s approval for a railway order to facilitate its construction could be issued as early as next month.

It would run from St Stephen’s Green via Dawson Street, Nassau Street, lower Grafton Street, College Green, Westmoreland Street, O’Connell Street and then on to Broombridge on a currently disused rail line.

The line would be split in the city centre, with southbound trams running via Marlborough Street across a new bridge to Hawkins Street and College Street before rejoining the main route in College Green.

“If there are no further cutbacks, BXD would fit within the reduced capital spending envelope for transport projects, primarily because of its affordability,” an RPA source told The Irish Times yesterday.

“The Government is keen to stimulate the engineering sector and BXD could be done from its own resources. But the bigger capital projects [Metro North and Dart Underground] will have to be deferred,” he said.

Another source said PPP projects for the metro and Dart schemes would involve “crazy money” to service the debt. Interest rates would be “prohibitive”, especially with the financial markets in turmoil now.

This is recognised by the final two bidders for the Metro North PPP, the Celtic Metro Group, which includes Mitsui and Barclays Private Equity, and Metro Express, which includes Bombardier and Macquarie.

RPA chief executive Frank Allen, whose term of office was due to end this month, has had his contract extended for a further year, pending the agency’s proposed merger with the National Roads Authority.

The RPA has spent nearly €200 million on preparatory work for Metro North, which would run from St Stephen’s Green to Swords, via Dublin airport. The project was finally approved by An Bord Pleanála last October.

1huge1

At least they realised the Clongriffin spur to the airport was a daft idea.

I'd rather wait longer till a proper job like the metro north can be built than some short term poor service to the airport.

Brian CivilEng

Much as I am glad to see them use the word "deferred" instead of scrapped, I can see this scheme and the Metro going through many more years of "feasibility studies" and a redesign when we have the money to pay for it again. We'll get there eventually, the DART will slip through the cracks and be built "accidentally" at some point. Can't say the same for the Metro.

Judgement Day

And good riddance! Get rid of CIE before spending another cent on DART underground.

strassenwo!f

But, even if it is scrapped, or "deferred", An Bord Pleanala are still mulling over the project. So what happens there? In the event that they wish to approve the project, can they approve a strategic infrastructure project which - it appears - may not now happen, even if such approval may arrive at a time when it has already been scrapped/deferred. What's that going to do for the overall view of the planning process in Ireland?

Or do they just let their whole inquiry into the project quietly die a death and never be published. What's that going to do for the overall view of the planning process in Ireland?

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But, even if it is scrapped, or "deferred", An Bord Pleanala are still puzzling over the project. So what happens there? Do they approve a project which - it appears - may not now happen, and therefore their approval (or otherwise!) may arrive at a time when it has already been scrapped/deferred. What's that going to do for the overall view of the planning process in Ireland?

Or do they just let their whole inquiry into the project quietly die a death and never be published. What's that going to do for the overall view of the planning process in Ireland?

I wouldn't think it changes anything at all wrt DartU.

DartU had already been 'deferred' until post-2014 by the previous government and the planning process and oral hearings continued with An Bord Pleanala.

As far as I am aware, this current review also covers the period up to 2014 in which Metro North and Luas BXD were included by FF-Greens last November.

The DartU RO application was submitted on June 30, 2010 and was 'expected' to take a year to go through the planning process. I wouldn't be surprised if the RO was granted before the capital review is formally announced at the end of September.

But we'll know for sure soon enough.

strassenwo!f

(Sorry, Jack, there is a mismatch between my post and the quote you posted. I was editing. I hope it doesn't change things).

loyatemu

CIÉ’s proposal for a rail spur to Dublin airport from the Dart line at Clongriffin in north Dublin is also widely seen as a non-runner. “It’s a daft idea and the cost would be enormous,” one source said.

this at least is good news IMO - it would have been a tremendous waste of money (and particularly when CIE are planning to close some of their other lines).

Jack Noble

If these projects are 'deferred' post 2014 or even 2016, anyone think FG and Labour are storing up an election headache for themselves?

With Metro North and Dart Underground holding 10-year railway orders, I will be very surprised if FF, SF, ULA and Greens won't be making their own 'promises' re Metro and Dart come 2016.

Varadkar, Reilly, Burton and Shorthall will be particularly vulnerable on the issue locally and I fully expect FF and SF to exploit it to the maximum in Dublin North, North West and West, in particular.

I know DWC is very pessimistic but I'll look at the glass half full here and say 'deferral' in the current economic and political climate really is the best we can expect.

However, the need for these projects hasn't gone away and will actually grow when recovery takes hold.

The difference between now and the 1980s, is that Metro and DartU will have railway orders active until 2020 and 2022 and much of the design and preparatory work has already been done.

It is now up to advocates of public transport in Dublin to keep Metro and Dart on the agenda for when better economic times come and put them back on the political agenda post-2014 and the next general election.

Finally, let's see what Leo and govt actually says in September when the review is published.

As has been pointed out on another thread, the number 2 in the NTA told the Oireachtas Transport committee two weeks ago that he expected 'the right result' from the capital review - and the NTA's future strategy hinges on Metro and Dart.

That's my optimistic view...