DART+ (DART Expansion)

strassenwo!f

Jack Noble wrote:

Drogheda is part of the DU plan.

But not part of the T21 plan, which is the most recent plan produced by the Dept. of Transport.

Jack Noble wrote:

I am only quoting what I'm reading in the IE plans and business case and the latest NTA strategy, 2030Vision - it's there for all to see.

The NTA strategy? That's basically the DTO, isn't it? Are Crayola still sponsoring them?

Jack Noble wrote:

Too much discussion has been done already. We have the plans - they should be implemented as soon as possible when the funding situations improves.

Well you say you have the plans, Jack. But the plans are basically the same as they were in the earlier part of the last decade, when the country was wallowing in money. They weren't implemented then, and it's hard to see the country soon being in a situation where it could sit down and have a think about rethinking them.

Jack Noble wrote:

The DTO was a strategy - FF-PDs dillied and dallied and then cherry picked the best bits. Two of those now have detailed plans and railways orders so we are further along than every other plan bar the one Dart and two Luas lines we have.

Jack, have you have ever looked at the transport systems of other cities, and the amount of planning which is involved? In comparison to the work which goes on in many European cities about general planning and transport planning the DTO's work was quite obviously minimal. I'm sure they did their best within their remit, but it was minimal.

Jack Noble wrote:

In the current circumstances nothing will start before 2016 at the earliest. But it is all down to money now - we don't have any and won't for at least another four/five years.

Well, yes, that's what I'm saying. There's no cash, and the previous projects didn't get the go-ahead when there was lots of it. It's going to be a long time before the country is as rich as it was in the years around the T21 project. If they didn't get the green light then, maybe they weren't the right projects.

Jack Noble wrote: »

It also depends on the political situation here and in the eurozone. Today, 'austerity' is the only agenda in town. A few more years of recession or zero growth, and a few more elections across the EZ and 'stimulus' may very well be the new agenda a few years from now - especially if Merkel gets booted out in Germany next year. Hollande is already suggesting that is the route he will seek/demand if, as now seems likely, he is elected in France.

Unfortunately, this is European political stuff, which is over my handsome little head.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But not part of the T21 plan, which is the most recent plan produced by the Dept. of Transport.

The IE DartU plan and business case and 2030Vision are more uptodate than T21.

The Business Case dates from April 2010.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The NTA strategy? Is that a nationwide re-mix of the DTO strategy? All the crayola stuff in the DTO's documents?

2030Vision updates Platform for Change, taking into account what has happened since 2001 such as T21 in 2005.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Well you say you have the plans, Jack. But the plans are basically the same as they were in the earlier part of the last decade, when the country was wallowing in money. They weren't implemented then, and it's hard to see the country soon being in a situation where it could sit down and have a think about rethinking them.

The plans are what have been developed in the last few years and supercede what came about in 2001 and 2005.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Jack, have you have ever looked at the transport systems of other cities, and the amount of planning which is involved? In comparison to the work which goes on in many European cities about general planning and transport planning the DTO's work was quite obviously minimal. I'm sure they did their best within their remit, but it was minimal.

I certainly have - I have a little library of books on them and have travelled on many of the best European and US systems.

In Germany, for example, most of the urban transport systems were developed over decades and are still being developed. During that time, the plans were often changed as circumstances changed. Consider, for example, the orginal plans for U3 in Nuremburg or U4 in Hamburg as formulated four decades ago to what is being built today.

Amsterdam is another good example of plans changing over time as political agendas, funding and public opinion altered.

In the case of Dublin, the core of the old DRRTS plan of 1975 is reflected in the MN-DU plans of today - ie, two intersecting undeground lines in the city centre, albeit with stations in different locations. Dublin has not suffered for lack of good plans but lack of political will, imagination and vision - and no end of political interference, bad decisions and cute-hooring which ensured that funding was never made available, even when it was there.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Well, yes, that's what I'm saying. There's no cash, and the previous projects didn't get the go-ahead when there was lots of it. It's going to be a long time before the country is as rich as it was in the years around the T21 project. If they didn't get the green light then, maybe they weren't the right projects.

The big difference today is that both MN and DU have detailed plans and railway orders and most, if not all the land/property required for both is now in State hands. What's missing is (a) funding and (b) political will.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Unfortunately, this is European political stuff, which is over my handsome little head.

Everything depends on what happens to the euro and how the EU's politicians tackle the current crisis. If they FUBAR it, then wondering when DartU goes ahead will be the least of our worries.

Victor

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But not part of the T21 plan, which is the most recent plan produced by the Dept. of Transport.

T21 wasn't a plan, it was a funding envelope / budget fudge.

If it was a plan, surely it would have been longer than 11 pages and if I can ask, what is the scope of the Atlantic Corridor?

strassenwo!f

Victor wrote: »

T21 wasn't a plan, it was a funding envelope / budget fudge.

If it was a plan, surely it would have been longer than 11 pages and if I can ask, what is the scope of the Atlantic Corridor?

In answer to your question, I've no idea.

In fact, I've forgotten what the Atlantic Corridor is, though I've a vague recollection that I knew about it at some stage.

Where does it fit in to a discussion about the DART underground project?

antoinolachtnai

It is worth looking at this density map.

http://airomaps.nuim.ie/flexviewer/?config=Census2011.xml

Density is very low west of Adamstown and North of Malahide, even Clongriffin. If you are building a tunnel, you really want it to connect to the Western Line. There is a lot more population over that way.

Victor

strassenwo!f wrote: »

In answer to your question, I've no idea.

In fact, I've forgotten what the Atlantic Corridor is, though I've a vague recollection that I knew about it at some stage.

Where does it fit in to a discussion about the DART underground project?

Just proving the point that T21 wasn't a plan.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is worth looking at this density map.

http://airomaps.nuim.ie/flexviewer/?config=Census2011.xml

Density is very low west of Adamstown and North of Malahide, even Clongriffin. If you are building a tunnel, you really want it to connect to the Western Line. There is a lot more population over that way.

While the suburban fringe is closer there, you have to remember the amount of journeys that the N4, N7 and the Cork mainline bring to the Heuston area and are badly fed along the quays and Grand Canal. In contrast, while Maynooth to Castleknock do represent a large population, there is nothing in the Phoenix Park and along the River Liffey as far as Leixlip.

Aside from that, there are already 4 tracks from Connolly to Cabra, beyond that, the main constraints are the level crossings and lack of feeder services, not the track.

antoinolachtnai

That is why it would be prudent to link the three railways (western, northern, Cork) into the tunnel, not just two, and to link the Phoenix Park Tunnel as well. You would be able to do this all with a well designed single tunnel from Heuston to Docklands.

strassenwo!f

Victor wrote: »

Just proving the point that T21 wasn't a plan.

Victor, you don't think it was a plan. I also don't think it was a plan.

The fact remains that the DOT, CIE, the RPA and everybody else in the publicly-owned transport sector acted as if it was a plan. Why else would there have been T21 logos on practically every bus and bus shelter in the country?

AngryLips

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Victor, you don't think it was a plan. I also don't think it was a plan.

The fact remains that the DOT, CIE, the RPA and everybody else in the publicly-owned transport sector acted as if it was a plan. Why else would there have been T21 logos on practically every bus and bus shelter in the country?

Regardless of whether or not it was a plan, the fact remains that pretty much all recently completed and planned-but-not-delivered transport projects mooted by T21 (or Platform for Change for that matter) were CBA'd on the assumption that all other aspects of the recommendations would be delivered as well.

markpb

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Why else would there have been T21 logos on practically every bus and bus shelter in the country?

Because they were ordered to by the DoT, presumably for political point scoring.

Victor

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Victor, you don't think it was a plan. I also don't think it was a plan.

The fact remains that the DOT, CIE, the RPA and everybody else in the publicly-owned transport sector acted as if it was a plan. Why else would there have been T21 logos on practically every bus and bus shelter in the country?

Advertising and political advantage.

strassenwo!f

Victor wrote: »

Just proving the point that T21 wasn't a plan.

So, okay Victor, that wasn't a plan.

The DTO had an earlier plan, which in fairness involved a lot of crayon work, and now there's a lot of designing being done on the Luas BXD line, which was not part of that plan.

So it looks like their back-of-the-envelope plan isn't being implemented either.

It seems that, 12 years in, there is no plan from this millenium which is being implemented.

JeffK88

Some talk of the Dart extension to the airport today IE want to include as part of the Dart Underground project. Looks like it could possibly happen within a decade or so says IE

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/airport-link-tunnel-included-in-expanded-dart-plan-29479191.html

moyners

JeffK88 wrote: »

Some talk of the Dart extension to the airport today IE want to include as part of the Dart Underground project. Looks like it could possibly happen within a decade or so says IE

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/airport-link-tunnel-included-in-expanded-dart-plan-29479191.html

I wonder would this mean changing or having to get a whole new railway order? Because the airport link is mentioned nowhere on the existing one: http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/

Or would they hope to start on the existing plan and add in an airport link later? Either way it'd probably be the end of Metro North.

bk

moyners wrote: »

Or would they hope to start on the existing plan and add in an airport link later? Either way it'd probably be the end of Metro North.

It would be a separate project and there is no point in doing the airport link until DART underground is completed and the northen line electrified due to the current capacity constraints on the Northern Line.

Also even then it is very unlikely to go ahead.

It will take significantly longer to take a DART from the airport to the city center then it would take Metro North. Hell even the 747 and Aircoach today will be quicker into the city center!!

Really the only people who would benefit from this are folks who live along the northern line.

For everyone else, you would get to the airport quicker by changing onto Metro North.

Intercity and commuter trains from Hueston won't be able to operate directly to the airport as they can't use the DART Underground tunnel, at least not until the intercity trains are electrified, which isn't going to happen for at least 30 years if ever!

It will also cause a significant increase in journey times for people travelling on the northern line who aren't going to the airport, as they have to leave the current alignment to go west to meet the airport and then go back east. Alternatively you could put in place a shuttle service, but again that would slow things down even more versus Metro North.

On the whole an Airport DART link is a very poor and costly project with little real benefit and many downsides.

Perhaps creating a BRT between Howth Junction and the airport would be a much cheaper and equally effective way of doing this.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

Perhaps creating a BRT Dart line between Howth Junction and the airport would be a much cheaper and equally effective way of doing this.

This to me is a no-brainer. Howth Junction to the airport is all open coutyside with only a few graveyards to avoid. It would be cheap and quick to build because of this and could provide a quick link into the city centre. It would also allow an interchange for travellers from northern staions on the line.

A bus link was tried before (AirDart iirc) but it failed because buses could not turn right at some point because of traffic but it might be better now because of the upgrade of the roads on the route.

Howth Junction is not a station I would like to change from train to bus at night in the winter. It is a dark, bleak place.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

This to me is a no-brainer. Howth Junction to the airport is all open coutyside with only a few graveyards to avoid. It would be cheap and quick to build because of this and could provide a quick link into the city centre. It would also allow an interchange for travellers from northern staions on the line.

Actually Howth Junction is surrounded by houses, check google maps. A new station between Howth Junction and Portmarnock would be the likely best solution.

Or alternatively a spur off the northern line further north of Howth Junction, where a feeder DART operates between Howth and the airport. There would be then no direct DARTs to either the airport or Howth, instead you would always change at Howth Junction.

And that is why it isn't a good idea. It would disimprove the service to Howth (now you have to wait and change DARTs) and would be significantly slower to get into town then just simply taking the 747 or Aircoach into town.

Basically is would cost us 200 million and give very little advantage.

MrDerp

bk wrote: »

Actually Howth Junction is surrounded by houses, check google maps. A new station between Howth Junction and Portmarnock would be the likely best solution.

Or alternatively a spur off the northern line further north of Howth Junction, where a feeder DART operates between Howth and the airport. There would be then no direct DARTs to either the airport or Howth, instead you would always change at Howth Junction.

And that is why it isn't a good idea. It would disimprove the service to Howth (now you have to wait and change DARTs) and would be significantly slower to get into town then just simply taking the 747 or Aircoach into town.

Basically is would cost us 200 million and give very little advantage.

I don't think the Howth Junction spur thing is to be taken literally, rather it'd be the changeover station for the airport, just as a passenger coming from Balbriggan might today change for the Howth Dart, or for intermediate stations like Raheny not serviced by commuter services.

Airport bound Darts might run non-stop from here, even if they must pass through Clongriffen station, to avoid using and overloading stations not equipped for changeovers.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

Actually Howth Junction is surrounded by houses, check google maps. A new station between Howth Junction and Portmarnock would be the likely best solution.

Or alternatively a spur off the northern line further north of Howth Junction, where a feeder DART operates between Howth and the airport. There would be then no direct DARTs to either the airport or Howth, instead you would always change at Howth Junction.

And that is why it isn't a good idea. It would disimprove the service to Howth (now you have to wait and change DARTs) and would be significantly slower to get into town then just simply taking the 747 or Aircoach into town.

Basically is would cost us 200 million and give very little advantage.

I am not suggesting that the line would run from Howth Junction, but would spur off the Northern Line form somewhere between Howth Junction and Portmarnock. It would be chosen to minimise cost. It could be designed to continue through Ballymun and onto the Phoenix Park tunnel and Heuston.

It need not be a Dart as such and could be a non-stop service to Connolly, and additional to current Dart services.

Heathrow had an Underground extension but it stopped at all staions to Cockfosters, (Not a rapid transit solution) but then they introduced an express service (at high cost) to Paddington (which is not central London and not very well served). They are currently talking about a through East-West link.

How would it cost €200m for such a simple link? 4-5km of open country-side two-rail with no stations (except at the airport).

Journey time to Connolly should be less than 30 mins - perhaps 20 min. Frequency should be 15 mins or 30 mins. If the station was well integrated with the airport terminals, then it would be very popular with travellers as journey times would be certain.

patrickmooney

I travel a lot and when presented with rail or bus connections from an airport into a city I ALWAYS take rail. It's safe and has a clear route. I never take cost or time into account. Can't see why tourists arriving into Dublin wouldn't do the same. And in most cities there is a surcharge to exit or board at the airport, so the tickets would/could cost a little more.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

How would it cost €200m for such a simple link? 4-5km of open country-side two-rail with no stations (except at the airport).

That is Irish Rails estimate, so I assume it is correct.

Remember it would require lots of works and a new station at Dublin Airport.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Journey time to Connolly should be less than 30 mins - perhaps 20 min. Frequency should be 15 mins or 30 mins. If the station was well integrated with the airport terminals, then it would be very popular with travellers as journey times would be certain.

That isn't what Irish Rail are proposing, the capacity simply isn't there on the Northern Line for such a service.

Here is what they are proposing:

http://www.slideshare.net/PatrickKing1/dart-link-to-dublin-airport-10182754

Basically:

- Dart Airport to Bray / Greystones, calling at all DART stations.

Note this will mean Howth will have to become a shuttle service from Howth junction, thus increasing journey times and adding a change for people going to Howth.

- 25 minute journey time to Connolly

This will mean about 35 minutes to O'Connell St with a change to LUAS required.

And all for 200 million!!

Now to put this in context, it currently takes Aircoach 40 minutes to reach O'Connell St at zero cost to the tax payer!

So basically they are proposing spending 200 million just to save 5 minutes journey time and with the added inconvenience of the horrible bag unfriendly hike from Connolly down to the Luas by BusAras!! And all while making dis-improving the service to Howth!!

I'm sorry but it just doesn't make any sense. There is a reason why this plan has never been taken seriously and why it has never been included in any strategic plans.

Now when DART Underground opens, it may make more sense then, so I would certainly be totally in favour of the alignment being reserved now for future use.

In the meantime I think a BRT between Howth Junction and the airport would be a much cheaper and better solution for serving people who live along the DART line.

Yes I'm aware of the AerDart and it's failures, but I'm proposing something more substantial then that. A BRT with dedicated road and any necessary road building and changes that are needed to make it fast and reliable, in conjunction with through ticketing for the DART.

It would give you most of what a DART link would give you at a fraction of the cost.

Amirani

Sam Russell wrote: »

Heathrow had an Underground extension but it stopped at all staions to Cockfosters, (Not a rapid transit solution) but then they introduced an express service (at high cost) to Paddington (which is not central London and not very well served). They are currently talking about a through East-West link.

They're doing a lot more than talking about it.

Aard

bk wrote: »

In the meantime I think a BRT between Howth Junction and the airport would be a much cheaper and better solution for serving people who live along the DART line.

Not to say that I endorse such a BRT line (haven't considered its merits yet), but I think that if line is built then it should follow the exact same reservation of any future railway line. No point in doing the land acquisition twice.

Zebra3

bk wrote: »

Basically:

- Dart Airport to Bray / Greystones, calling at all DART stations.

Note this will mean Howth will have to become a shuttle service from Howth junction, thus increasing journey times and adding a change for people going to Howth.

- 25 minute journey time to Connolly

This will mean about 35 minutes to O'Connell St with a change to LUAS required.

And all for 200 million!!

Now to put this in context, it currently takes Aircoach 40 minutes to reach O'Connell St at zero cost to the tax payer!

So basically they are proposing spending 200 million just to save 5 minutes journey time and with the added inconvenience of the horrible bag unfriendly hike from Connolly down to the Luas by BusAras!! And all while making dis-improving the service to Howth!!

I'm sorry but it just doesn't make any sense. There is a reason why this plan has never been taken seriously and why it has never been included in any strategic plans.

Now when DART Underground opens, it may make more sense then, so I would certainly be totally in favour of the alignment being reserved now for future use.

You seem to assume that everyone wants to go to O'Connell St from the airport.

bk

Zebra3 wrote: »

You seem to assume that everyone wants to go to O'Connell St from the airport.

It is what most people consider to be the city center, along with Grafton Street, which Aircoach stops near a few minutes later. It is also where the majority of Dublin Bus routes operate from and thus a major connection point for onward journeys.

Also Aircoach also serves the o2 area too, so no great time saving for people living near Connolly either. In fact the Aircoach o2 stop is closer to where more people live then Connolly.

Victor

AerDART died because of the disruption caused by the DART upgrade works.

bk

Aard wrote: »

Not to say that I endorse such a BRT line (haven't considered its merits yet), but I think that if line is built then it should follow the exact same reservation of any future railway line. No point in doing the land acquisition twice.

Interestingly the BRT could also be continued from the Airport along the M50 to Castleknock and Cheery Orchard station from where it could pick up Kildare and Western line based passengers heading to the airport.

monument

BRT via Swords Road
Luas via BXD and Finglas
Dart link

Aard

bk wrote: »

Interestingly the BRT could also be continued from the Airport along the M50 to Castleknock and Cheery Orchard station from where it could pick up Kildare and Western line based passengers heading to the airport.

Very interesting concept. Dare I suggest extending it a little further down the road to meet up with the Luas at the Red Cow?!

cgcsb

That old chestnut. They have that in the 2030 vision document released in 2011. It seems it was reprinted in a paper in 2013 to grab a headline. Maybe they think it'll make the public think the managers in IÉ are worth their salt in the wake of the recent DB strike.