DART+ (DART Expansion)

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

Interestingly the BRT could also be continued from the Airport along the M50 to Castleknock and Cheery Orchard station from where it could pick up Kildare and Western line based passengers heading to the airport.

essentially what metro west proposes to but at a higher cost

Victor

cgcsb wrote: »

essentially what metro west proposes to but at a higher cost

Not quite. Stick BRT on the M50 will only serve a few specific points where there are interchanges. The M50 is generally away from residential areas, although at Red Cow, it is lots of commercial development on one side. The BRT would take substantial capacity away from the M50 - capacity that we have just spent more than €1bn creating.

Metro West is slated to have 21 stations that are actually at places where people live and work.

So it might cost less, but it would also likely deliver less. So it isn't "essentially what metro west proposes".

cgcsb

Victor wrote: »

Metro West is slated to have 21 stations that are actually at places where people live and work.

So it might cost less, but it would also likely deliver less. So it isn't "essentially what metro west proposes".

The only difference is you propose a heavy rail solution for an orbital railway, quite bold, and with different station locations than are currently proposed. Why not simply move the proposed metro west stations if they are indeed that inconvenient?

loyatemu

bus services to the airport are excellent, largely as a result of the 100s of millions of euro spent on the port tunnel. I don't see the point in spending any money on a rail link connecting to the northern line - well maybe if it could be done for €20m, but €200m? - no way. (Metro North is a different matter as it serves a whole load of new areas, though I'm not convinced by the economics of that either).

as an example - I live in Greystones, currently I can get to the airport on the Aircoach in 80 minutes with no changes (and thats allowing for the bus going through some fairly congested areas on the southside). The proposed Dart would take exactly the same length of time. (Greystones - Connolly is 55 mins, + 25 to the airport). I suspect that from most areas of Dublin bus (using the M50 or the tunnel) would beat rail every time.

Victor

cgcsb wrote: »

The only difference is you propose a heavy rail solution for an orbital railway, quite bold, and with different station locations than are currently proposed. Why not simply move the proposed metro west stations if they are indeed that inconvenient?

Whut?

strassenwo!f

Victor wrote: »

Not quite. Stick BRT on the M50 will only serve a few specific points where there are interchanges. The M50 is generally away from residential areas, although at Red Cow, it is lots of commercial development on one side. The BRT would take substantial capacity away from the M50 - capacity that we have just spent more than €1bn creating.

Metro West is slated to have 21 stations that are actually at places where people live and work.

So it might cost less, but it would also likely deliver less. So it isn't "essentially what metro west proposes".

Very good points, Victor. BRT would be a poor relation to the metrowest, which will hopefully be built some day.

Thankfully, though, the metrowest has quite correctly been binned for the moment. Dublin needs to be concentrating on getting people (i) rapidly into and out of the city. When that has been achieved, getting them (ii) across the city. And then, when all that has been accomplished, turning heads towards getting people (iii) around the city.

The planned metrowest would not have delivered a single person directly into the city. In other words, it represented a totally arseways way of dealing with the city's most immediate and important transport needs.

There's not a lot of money now for the big stuff. But what money there is needs to be spent on dealing, in the correct order, with priorities (i) to (iii) above. BRT around the city should not figure highly at the moment.

markpb

I agree that arterial routes are the most important ones for capital investment but it would be a folly to ignore the estimated hundred thousand cars a day that use the M50 - the majority of them in the morning and evening peaks and the busiest exits being at places of employment. A lot of people in Dublin commute around the m50 to get to the airport, Citywest and Sandyford and no combination of public transport arterial routes is going to beat that drive on time.

I work in Sandyford and the three main origins are M50, Wicklow and the Luas (in that order). Several people from the first category tried taking public transport (bus + luas or train + luas) when petrol prices spiked but their journey times went up by between 200% and 300% and -none- of them kept it up despite the huge savings on money.

Victor

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The planned metrowest would not have delivered a single person directly into the city. In other words, it represented a totally arseways way of dealing with the city's most immediate and important transport needs.

Direct services to the city centre aren't everything. MW had the potential to feed several other rail lines and while exact service patterns weren't decided, it is possible there would have been Blanchardstown to St. Stephen's Green / Luas Green Line services.

Then there is the huge number of people who travel, especially on the Tallaght-Blanchardstown axis. Possibly building the MW bridge and operating a QBC might be useful in the interim.

AngryLips

If radial services were successful then DB would have a lot more of them. Cue a handful of replies outlining reasons why MW is different because of segregation etc

markpb

AngryLips wrote: »

If radial services were successful then DB would have a lot more of them.

That's a bit of a stretch. Their existing radial services are mostly local services, meandering around housing estates, hospitals and shopping centres taking the longest route possible to serve as much as possible, as poorly as possible. The roads used are rarely main roads, preferring local roads with no bus priority at all.

In the case of the 17a which was actually quite good, they used Network Direct to move it *away* from a brand new QBC into a housing estate with 90 degree bends, speed ramps and a hospital with roads so narrow two buses can't meet without one of them stopping.

DBs experience of proving public transport is rarely a good example to learn from.

Victor

AngryLips wrote: »

If radial services were successful

Do you mean cross-radial routes?

markpb wrote: »

That's a bit of a stretch. Their existing radial services are mostly local services, meandering around housing estates, hospitals and shopping centres taking the longest route possible to serve as much as possible, as poorly as possible. The roads used are rarely main roads, preferring local roads with no bus priority at all.

Hospitals and shopping centres are big trip generators, not just for patients/shoppers, but also staff.

The 17a serves Howth Junction station, DCU, Beaumont and Blanchardstown hospitals, industrial areas in Baldoyle, Coolock, Clonshaugh, Santry, Ballycoolin and shopping at Donaghmede, Coolock, Northside, Ballymun, Finglas, Blanchardstown village and Blanchardstown Centre.

There may be the issue that the cross radial routes 17, 17a, 18, 75, 76/a, 102, 104, 114, 236* serve local journeys too much and act as medium/long distance routes / connectors to radial routes too little.



* The 45a, 63, 84/a, 111 are more radial routes from Dún Laoghaire than cross-radial from Dublin; similarly the 184 and 185 from Bray; 33a and 33b from Swords; 44b from Dundrum; however the the 59, 116, 161, 220, 238, 239 are just strange.

Victor

This is straying a bit off-topic, so I'd be grateful if we could get back on-topic.

Feel free to start a new thread.

Moderator

strassenwo!f

Victor wrote: »

This is straying a bit off-topic, so I'd be grateful if we could get back on-topic.

Feel free to start a new thread.

Moderator

Is it straying off-topic? Discussion of the metrowest is surely very relevant to discussion of the DART underground project.

The various plans produced by the Department of Transport and the offshoots (Platform for Change, Transport21) talk about building both the metrowest and the DART underground project.

What wasn't specifically mentioned in the plans, unsurprisingly, is that the DART underground project will (if built) be operating for many years at seriously below the theoretical capacity of the tunnel.

Obviously both the tunnel itself and additions to the services which run in it are a long way off. But some cities, e.g. Munich, have shown that it is possible to arrange a system which both fulfils metrowest-like functions and, critically, utilises the most expensive tunnel infrastructure to good effect.

The capacity issue will have to be dealt with if the tunnel is ever to be built, especially given the opposition which is likely to emerge, primarily because of cost and the fact that "Dublin gets everything".

It can't obviously, all be done immediately, but I think Dublin needs to start thinking about both the DART underground project and the metrowest being incorporated into one.

Aard

Of relevance too (to both MW and DU) is if/when the new town of Clonburris is built. It will incorporate two stops on the future Dart, one of them being an interchange with Metro West, in what is currently a greenfield site. Density is likely to be a minimum of 50 units/ha in the vicinity of the stations. At an occupancy rate of at least 2 per dwelling on average, which means there will be an overall population density of 10,000/sqkm around each station.

I know it might look like a bit of a pipe dream given the current state of the property market, but this is Ireland finally getting the hang of long-term planning, and it will have a positive effect on the future patronage and viability of DU.

murphaph

Clonburris will be built. The question is whether DU will be there to greet it!

strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

Clonburris will be built. The question is whether DU will be there to greet it!

Confident prediction here: it won't be.

Putting together all the SDZs along the Hazelhatch line, together with all the other places along the route, you are probably looking at max demand of 4-5 trains per hour along the four-tracked Kildare Route into Heuston.

I think you could double that to 8-10 trains per hour if the trains eat further into the city, i.e. if the interconnector is built.

But that is still well short of the capacity which the tunnel is capable of carrying and, I'd guess, well short of the throughput which the tunnel needs before it will be built in the first place.

The way to go seems, to me, to plan on sticking the metrowest route, in its various pieces, through the tunnel as well.

Aard

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The way to go seems, to me, to plan on sticking the metrowest route, in its various pieces, through the tunnel as well.

If the MW alignment was built to heavy gauge, trains from the west could bypass the city and go straight to the airport or even through to the Belfast line.

strassenwo!f

Aard wrote:

If the MW alignment was built to heavy gauge, trains from the west could bypass the city and go straight to the airport or even through to the Belfast line.

Possibly they could.

However, that is something for another day, as such traffic is mostly confined to people who are making such journeys on a very occasional basis. The inconvenience of changing at Heuston and travelling across the city to Connolly, or vice versa, is not a priority problem, I feel.

The greater demand is for regular access to the city. People along the metrowest route have as much need to rapidly get into and out of the city as people in Clonburris, Adamstown or Hazelhatch do.

strassenwo!f

And the failure of IE to incorporate extra platforms at their proposed Spencer Dock station, for turnback purposes, is a very clear indictation that they don't understand the potential of the interconnector.

D.L.R.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And the failure of IE to incorporate extra platforms at their proposed Spencer Dock station, for turnback purposes, is a very clear indictation that they don't understand the potential of the interconnector.

I think they struggle to understand railway transportation in general!

murphaph

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The greater demand is for regular access to the city. People along the metrowest route have as much need to rapidly get into and out of the city as people in Clonburris, Adamstown or Hazelhatch do.

Why can't they just change from MW to DART at a purpose built interchange at Kishoge (Clonburris)?

Why do the actual trains have to divert into the tunnel?

strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

Why can't they just change from MW to DART at a purpose built interchange at Kishoge (Clonburris)?

Why do the actual trains have to divert into the tunnel?

They could change. Indeed they could.

But since the greatest demand is to get into the city, isn't it just easier for all concerned if the train is diverted into the tunnel and brings the passengers directly into the city, without having to change?

Especially if the tunnel has capacity in bucketloads.

strassenwo!f

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Especially if the tunnel has capacity in bucketloads.

Which, if it is built, it will have. Capacity in shedloads, bucketloads, whatever superlative you wish.

My own belief is that the main pressure for the DART Underground project needs to come from the West of the city. If built, the DU project will have a lot of capacity, much more than can be satisfied by trains between Hazelhatch and the City, travelling via various SDZs.

The available capacity should, I feel, be filled by spurs from this line: for example, to locations north and south of the main Kildare line by locations which can feed capacity into a tunnel which is currently proposed to run for many years (perhaps for ever) at considerably below its capacity.

There are numerous locations in West Dublin which would welcome, and benefit from, such a service.

The failure of IE to pencil in extra platforms at their proposed Spencer Dock station, for turnaround purposes, shows that they didn't understand the potential of this project. The fact that IE's arrangement for Spencer Dock was given the go-ahead from ABP, without question, shows that ABP didn't understand the potential either.

Thus far, much of the focus about the DU project has been about the relief it will provide for the beleagured rail services in the East of the city.

Even though it has been parked,and probably won't emerge again as a feasible project for a long time to come, I believe it will be a more viable project if it is envisaged as a project which can deliver large numbers of people from West Dublin into the city, than if it is seen mostly as a way of solving the capacity problems on the DART line.

Aard

Interesting post.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that the best way to funnel people into the DU tunnel is by adding spurs to the line. The construction of such spurs would be very expensive and would travel through largely residential areas -- sensitive and with few trip generators. West Dublin (specifically the Lucan-Clondalkin area) has a very good orbital road network that lends itself to an array of orbital bus services. Considering DU's unique penetration into the CBD, a bus+train trip could still prove more attractive than a respective bus-only trip, and much cheaper than a rail spur.

You are absolutely correct in saying that much of the pressure will come from the West. Looking at various Development Plans and Settlement Strategies, it is clear that the population in the West will continue to increase at a higher rate than elsewhere overall. Most of the area abutting the railway between Hazelhatch and Clondalkin is greenfield. As I mentioned in a previous post, these lands (once developed of course) will have population densities nearing 10,000/sqkm beside stations, and likely at least 5,000/sqkm elsewhere. I wouldn't be surprised to see an Adamstown/Clonburris style SDZ for the lands around Hazelhatch.

antoinolachtnai

You are talking about serving the southwest city. If DU were altered to connect with the Maynooth line as well as the Northern Line, it would allow fast access from the Northwest city to St Stephen's Green. .

The place that really has the population to merit a spur is Blanchardstown.

Cool Mo D

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You are talking about serving the southwest city. If DU were altered to connect with the Maynooth line as well as the Northern Line, it would allow fast access from the Northwest city to St Stephen's Green. .

The place that really has the population to merit a spur is Blanchardstown.

As I understand it, the plan is that the Maynooth line will connect to DU, but it will be a crappy single track connection: http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/assets/files/site_files/5%20Railway%20Works%20Drawings/Area%20106/03_RO_Alignment_Details/DU-RO_106_B-C.PDF

antoinolachtnai

Yes, not adequate to run services on (or at least not more than a few services per hour). The plan for DU is to rely on a change at Pearse Street.

The point is well made that the tunnel should have lots of capacity and the key is to design the network to take advantage of that capacity.

AngryLips

Well it doesn't make sense to serve Haslehatch from Maynooth-originating trains. Yes, much of the traffic wont want to travel the entire route but it is far more likely that people will want to do Malahide-Haselhatch than any point on the Maynooth line to any point on the south city via a detour through the Docklands...

antoinolachtnai

Very few people ever want to travel the full length of any 'pendular' route but I take your point.

You would terminate a lot of the services at Inchicore, or better still, Cabra. You would still run Hazelhatch-Malahide as well.

(The DART Underground plan only ever served as far as Inchicore. Going to Hazelhatch was provided for but is not part of the plan.)

strassenwo!f

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The place that really has the population to merit a spur is Blanchardstown.

Blanchardstown probably makes sense, if spurs are ever to be built to the DART underground project.

The main one though, is surely Tallaght. What is it, the fifth biggest urban population in the state?

Of course, as mentioned above, proper railway lines are expensive. And they also take time to design and plan.

An important point here is that there is time.

The DART Underground project is now, realistically, on the very long finger.

But there have got to be benefits if there's eventually a 20-minute rapid connection between the two most populous urban areas in Greater Dublin, rather than a 45-50 minute one, using the considerable excess of capacity available under the current DART underground proposals.