DART+ (DART Expansion)

monument

Remember that while most of us on here think Dart Underground is one of the most important transport projects, that's not a universal view and nothing is near a done deal until contracts for the main build are signed.

There's still:

-- our very rural/regional-focused national political system which might baulk at the idea of spending €4 billion on Dublin

-- the cut, cut, cut; we need to cut more people, groups and departments... Many of who will be linked to...

-- high-profile economists and other commentators who are against rail of any kind or at least big ticket projects; and these people will likely target DU now that Metro is out of the way

-- the anti-CIE / IR people who don't want any projects run by Irish Rail

-- the "sure, the Phoenix Park tunnel will do" people

Etc

Idbatterim

-- our very rural/regional-focused national political system which might baulk at the idea of spending €4 billion on Dublin

spending 4 billion on Dublin? Dublin is massively subsiding most other counties. I find this really infuriating, their logic probably being, if we dont have a metro, why should Dublin :rolleyes: Its just a real pity this and metro north werent started before the crash, just before it would have made it sweeter! Any party who would actually get this built, would have my vote. I'd probably take it ahead of income tax cuts, given what it would do for the city, quality of life, connectivity...

monument

Idbatterim wrote: »

spending 4 billion on Dublin? Dublin is massively subsiding most other counties. I find this really infuriating, their logic probably being, if we dont have a metro, why should Dublin :rolleyes: Its just a real pity this and metro north werent started before the crash, just before it would have made it sweeter! Any party who would actually get this built, would have my vote. I'd probably take it ahead of income tax cuts, given what it would do for the city, quality of life, connectivity...

Yes, it is infuriating.

While it seems in some circles the opposing view is getting stronger, it'll still take a lot to get across the idea that Dublin is massively subsiding most other counties.

Grandeeod

the anti-CIE / IR people who don't want any projects run by Irish Rail

-- the "sure, the Phoenix Park tunnel will do" people

Hey monument, that's a bit misguided and disrespectful to a few people and I have to check you on it.

The anti CIE/IR People have a point and its a point thats entirely seperate from the building of DU.

As for the PPT will do people, I think you are being very disingenuous. It has been outlined very clearly how the PPT can play a role outside of and within the context of DU.

There may be people that are ignorant of all the facts and history of both, but that should never be held up as supporting evidence to back up your opinion.

Schadenfreudia

monument wrote: »

-- the anti-CIE / IR people who don't want any projects run by Irish Rail

Etc

I agree that all the other objections you list are rubbish...but the CIE objection is a very valid concern.

Compare and contrast DART and Luas.

1huge1

The objection I'm hearing a lot lately is ''sure Dublin is too small of a city to have an underground''

Aard

I try not to concern myself too much with arguments from people who clearly have only read headlines on a project.

"Dart Underground > underground > Dublin's too small for an underground."

Really? Not worth entertaining imo. Now, people who have done some cursory reading around the project I will gladly listen to.

It's the same with people who think DU is "just" a Heuston-Connolly link. I just smile and nod and let them have their rant

(I'm talking IRL of course here, not on boards!)

liamog

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I agree that all the other objections you list are rubbish...but the CIE objection is a very valid concern.

Compare and contrast DART and Luas.

Not sure about the DART vs Luas but the commuter line to Maynooth has been reliable over the last 4 years I've been using, so CIE aren't doing to bad a job.

Its always good to remember that it was the NTA whom were tasked with implementing the Leap card so its not all sunshine and roses at their end.

monument

Grandeeod wrote: »

Hey monument, that's a bit misguided and disrespectful to a few people and I have to check you on it.

The anti CIE/IR People have a point and its a point thats entirely seperate from the building of DU.

Maybe some anti-IE people points are separate entirely, but there's some of those people who don't want Dart Underground because it's a IR project which will be run by IR -- those are the people I was referring to.

Grandeeod wrote: »

As for the PPT will do people, I think you are being very disingenuous. It has been outlined very clearly how the PPT can play a role outside of and within the context of DU.

There may be people that are ignorant of all the facts and history of both, but that should never be held up as supporting evidence to back up your opinion.

Again: I said people who say that the PPT will do, I did not mention people who say both projects should proceed.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I agree that all the other objections you list are rubbish...but the CIE objection is a very valid concern.

Compare and contrast DART and Luas.

I'd like to see what IR could have done if Dart had more money and without Dart / IR books being saddled with the construction costs.

Aard wrote: »

I try not to concern myself too much with arguments from people who clearly have only read headlines on a project.

"Dart Underground > underground > Dublin's too small for an underground."

Really? Not worth entertaining imo. Now, people who have done some cursory reading around the project I will gladly listen to.

It's the same with people who think DU is "just" a Heuston-Connolly link. I just smile and nod and let them have their rant

(I'm talking IRL of course here, not on boards!)

Sadly, all sorts of people need convincing -- even those not too bother to read up about the project.

Oasis_Dublin

Idbatterim wrote: »

I find this really infuriating, their logic probably being, if we dont have a metro, why should Dublin :rolleyes:

Ah come on now. Kilmuckridge and Claregalway need metros as bad as them auld Dubs!!

Sierra Oscar

I see that Diageo have a small piece in today's Irish Independent stating that they have 'fears' about the DART Underground proposal as the line will travel underneath the St. James's Gate campus. Trouble on the horizon, or just the Independent stirring the pot?

Grandeeod

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I see that Diageo have a small piece in today's Irish Independent stating that they have 'fears' about the DART Underground proposal as the line will travel underneath the St. James's Gate campus. Trouble on the horizon, or just the Independent stirring the pot?

Old news, but fact. They expressed these concerns during the planning permission phase a few years ago. However, one could be forgiven for wondering why the Indo have brought it up again.

murphaph

Diageo engineers & managers will certainly have concerns that their production isn't in any way affected, but "fears"?

Jack Noble

Very interesting line in the print edition of the Herald report today on 'Guinness fears' -- but not in the online version here:

http://www.herald.ie/news/new-dart-line-may-unsettle-our-pints-guinness-30238779.html

It said the Dart Underground project was initially due to cost €4bn but Irish Rail had told the Herald that costs had since been reduced to €2bn.

However, it was only last August, the Irish Independent reported the following:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/airport-link-tunnel-included-in-expanded-dart-plan-29479191.html

The Department of Transport said that DART Underground – expected to cost in the region of €2.6bn – could be in line for the money because it is a priority transport project.

A spokesman said a maximum of 30pc of the costs of building the 7.6km line could be provided by the EU.

Planning permission is already in place for the tunnel, which would run underneath the city, connecting the northern and Kildare lines, with underground stations at Spencer Dock, Pearse, St Stephen's Green, Christchurch, Heuston Station and a surface DART station at Inchicore

The DART Airport link would cost in the region of €200m, and would provide a link from Howth junction to the airport.

But the total cost of the project is estimated to be more than €4bn – €2.6bn to build the tunnel, with another €1.4bn needed to electrify one line between the city centre and Hazelhatch in Kildare, a second line between Connolly Station and Maynooth in Kildare, new rolling stock and the elimination of level crossings.

So how can an overall project which was expected to cost €4bn -- with the tunnel element alone costed at €2.6n -- less than a year ago now drop to €2bn?

Someone has got their figures wrong.

monument

Jack Noble wrote: »

Very interesting line in the print edition of the Herald report today on 'Guinness fears' -- but not in the online version here:

http://www.herald.ie/news/new-dart-line-may-unsettle-our-pints-guinness-30238779.html

Err... that story nothing that has not been in the public for three years or more. The only fresh quote from Guinness is in this paragraph:

When asked if Irish Rail had addressed any of its concerns over the last three years the company responded by saying: "We are currently in the process of reviewing this correspondence."

Jack Noble

monument wrote: »

Err... that story nothing that has not been in the public for three years or more. The only fresh quote from Guinness is in this paragraph:

I think you may have missed the oiny of my post. Read again.

The Guinness thing is the usual nonsense the papers focus on.

The key line was in the print edition but not online.

According to the Herald, the cost of the entire DartU project has fallen from €4bn to €2bn, a figure it says was confirmed to it by Irish Rail.

Thats one hell of a difference. The €4bn figure was put into the public domain by the Comptroller and Auditor General and later the NTA.

Only last August, the Indo reported that figure and broke it down -- €2.6bn for the tunnel element and €1.4bn for electrification and ugrades of the other lines and the new rolling stock.

Having followed the project for the last decade, that is exactly what I understood the costs breakdown to be.

So either the Herald has got its figures wrong -- or IE is spinning.

monument

I was giving out about the article being based on a three-year-old planning submission and the only thing new was Guinness saying we'll review the correspondence we had.

The updated business case should give a firmer idea of cost.

strassenwo!f

Jack Noble wrote:

The tunnel project to which Indo today refers is circa €2bn.

The overall Dart expansion project, including the tunnel, electrification and station upgrades on Maynooth, Kildare and Northern lines and additional rolling stock, comes in at the €4bn mark.

It's really easy to understand if you pay attention.

So, Jack, you've been following the whole thing for a decade, and now you find that it's actually not so easy to understand. Perhaps you'll try not to be such a smartass in future.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

So, Jack, you've been following the whole thing for a decade, and now you find that it's actually not so easy to understand. Perhaps you'll try not to be such a smartass in future.

It is easy to understand.

Someone is spinning a line with that €2bn figure in the Herald.

Given the scale and scope of works involved in the entire DartU project it is simply not possible to do it all for €2bn.

The rolling stock element alone is going to cost around €500m for 230-plus new EMU rail cars - and that's scaled back from the €900m order of 432 originally planned by IE in 2008.

Do you believe 15km of tunnels, four deep underground stations -- including two interchanges under existing railway stations and a third on SSG under a Luas line and to include provision for a Metro station -- a grade separated junction in Inchicore, electrification of the Northern, Maynooth and Kildare lines, station upgrades, grade separation of level crossings, CPOs, etc, can now all be done for circa €1.5bn?

I certainly don't -- and I doubt many others who have followed the project closely do either.

If this project is to be approved next year, then putting false numbers out there is really not going to help push the case for DartU with the austerity-weary public, is it?

AngryLips

Well Diageo obviously don't have any serious concerns because they just completed a massive investment in their James' Gate site

strassenwo!f

The Irish Independent wrote:

The project has already cost the taxpayer €44m in consultants, design and
staff costs but Irish Rail estimates that the entire cost will be put at
€2bn.

But, I'm still confused.

That article (from May 1st), about the DART expansion project, has Irish Rail itself putting the total cost of this project at 2 billion euro.

I agree with Jack, above, that this does seem low for such a large scale project (what with all the tunnelling, removal of level crossings, etc).

But Irish Rail are the people who are managing this project. They're certainly the people who know most about it.

Yet the 4 billion figure keeps coming up.

Even after the bank bailouts, when people became inured to money being thrown down the swanny, there is surely a difference between 2 billion and 4 billion.

FreudianSlippers

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But, I'm still confused.

That article (from May 1st), about the DART expansion project, has Irish Rail itself putting the total cost of this project at 2 billion euro.

I agree with Jack, above, that this does seem low for such a large scale project (what with all the tunnelling, removal of level crossings, etc).

But Irish Rail are the people who are managing this project. They're certainly the people who know most about it.

Yet the 4 billion figure keeps coming up.

Even after the bank bailouts, when people became inured to money being thrown down the swanny, there is surely a difference between 2 billion and 4 billion.

Could an exponential reduction in cost of materials, labour and land value result in a 50% cost reduction? Probably not. Substitute wanting any money for abject greed and we might be getting close. (I.e. the 4bn figure was always inflated)

strassenwo!f

And I see a possible DART/metro/LUAS St. Stephen's Green interchange being mentioned above. I thought it had been established that that was a pretty crap idea?

KCAccidental

not again strassenwolf, please... for the sake of my sanity... don't drag this back into the stephen's green interchange debate again. We had 12 pages worth of it.

L1011

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And I see a possible DART/metro/LUAS St. Stephen's Green interchange being mentioned above. I thought it had been established that that was a pretty crap idea?

No, I think it was established that you had an obsession with College Green and that was about the end of the debate.

strassenwo!f

KCAccidental wrote: »

not again strassenwolf, please... for the sake of my sanity... don't drag this back into the stephen's green interchange debate again. We had 12 pages worth of it.

I think I have shown why College Green would be a better option for the passengers on the interconnector, and for Dublin commuters generally.

I'm sorry, KC, if your sanity has to fall by the wayside.

LXFlyer

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I think I have shown why College Green would be a better option for the passengers on the interconnector, and for Dublin commuters generally.

I'm sorry, KC, if your sanity has to fall by the wayside.

No, you've expressed an opinion (at considerable length).

Plenty of people disagree with you.

It doesn't mean you have a monopoly on being right about this.

murphaph

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And I see a possible DART/metro/LUAS St. Stephen's Green interchange being mentioned above. I thought it had been established that that was a pretty crap idea?

Established by whom?

I still think it's a good idea to use the green.

Sam Russell

Heuston to Galway goes through Portarlington. Hardly direct.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Heuston to Galway goes through Portarlington. Hardly direct.

What has that to do with DART Underground?