DART+ (DART Expansion)

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

What has that to do with DART Underground?

The discussion on whether DU should go the SSG or CG is irrelevant once a decision is made.

strassenwo!f

murphaph wrote: »

Established by whom?

I still think it's a good idea to use the green.

Are you still basing that on your theory that St. Stephen's Green is better because it's nearer to Copper Faced Jack's?

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

The discussion on whether DU should go the SSG or CG is irrelevant once a decision is made.

I completely agree and the decision is unlikely to be revisited - I just wasn't sure why you were talking about Dublin/Galway!

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But, I'm still confused.

That article (from May 1st), about the DART expansion project, has Irish Rail itself putting the total cost of this project at 2 billion euro.

I agree with Jack, above, that this does seem low for such a large scale project (what with all the tunnelling, removal of level crossings, etc).

But Irish Rail are the people who are managing this project. They're certainly the people who know most about it.

Yet the 4 billion figure keeps coming up.

Even after the bank bailouts, when people became inured to money being thrown down the swanny, there is surely a difference between 2 billion and 4 billion.

The €4bn figure is what was put in the public domain in January 2013 by the PAC based on Comptroller and Auditor General's report of 2011 and is based on the 2011 Estimates for the Department of Transport.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/pac/correspondence/2013-meeting730702/%5BPAC-R-827%5D-Correspondence-4C.1.pdf

It is made up of €2.6bn for the tunnel section and €1.4bn for electrification and upgrade of the other lines to Dart standard and new rolling stock.

These in turn are based on cost estimates and construction costs drawn up in 2009/2010 - before the Dart and Metro projects were put on hold.

We know from the Metro North tender process and other construction projects that construction costs have fallen between 20% and 40% since the collapse of that sector and the economic crisis - depending on the individual projects concerned.

It's perfectly reasonable to presume that there will be some savings to be made should Dart construction begin in 2016, possibly somewhere in the region of 20% to 25% compared to before the crash but as construction recovers and gains pace with the economy, those costs will rise again. CPO costs will certainly have fallen since the crazy days but property prices in Dublin are still on the rise. And they'll go up more when owners know IE wants to CPO their property or part of it.

So it's perfectly reasonable to suggest the tunnel element may now cost around €2bn - but we won't know for sure until updated estimates are done and tenders sought. But I don't see much scope for savings in the electrification and rolling stock element as those costs will be less likely to change compared to the heavy construction element.

As for fugures bandied around in the media, I really would not pay much heed to them as, in my experience, the majority of reporters and editors haven't the first clue about such projects and don't know what to ask or who to ask with regard to getting the correct information. And I say that as someone with 20 years experience working in the Irish media. The number of journalists in Ireland who actually have any knowledge or understanding of these projects can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

strassenwo!f

lxflyer wrote: »

I completely agree and the decision is unlikely to be revisited - I just wasn't sure why you were talking about Dublin/Galway!

This is a key point.

There was the original plan for Temple Bar, then the whole thing was moved several hundred metres to the south. Far from being revisited, is there any evidence that it has actually been visited? You certainly wouldn't think so if you were basing your view on what was presented to the public at the consultations, way back when.

One route, how many doors should there be in each station? What a load of b*****ks.

It was moved several hundred metres to the south because the LUAS was stuck at St. Stephen's Green at that time. It is absolutely not clear how this will be of more benefit to Dublin's commuters.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And I see a possible DART/metro/LUAS St. Stephen's Green interchange being mentioned above. I thought it had been established that that was a pretty crap idea?

FFS, not this nonsense again.

The only person who has 'established' this is you and the only place where it has been 'established' is in your head.

IE, NTA, RPA, DTTAS, DCC -- and pretty much everyone else who understands transportation and urban planning -- accept SSG is the best location for a major interchange station to serve the south city CBD.

The plans are not going to be changed now -- accept that and move on.

strassenwo!f

And ABP Jack, don't forget An Bord Pleanala.

I'm talking about getting people rapidly into, out of and across the city.

You seem to only be interested in transport to or from the south city.

murphaph

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Are you still basing that on your theory that St. Stephen's Green is better because it's nearer to Copper Faced Jack's?

I honestly can't remember that far back. Maybe dig out my full quote so we can see it in context, rather than paraphrased.

Amirani

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And ABP Jack, don't forget An Bord Pleanala.

I'm talking about getting people rapidly into, out of and across the city.

You seem to only be interested in transport to or from the south city.

I thought it had been established that SSG was actually the centre of the city? I don't see why you're insistent that the Liffey is the geographic or economic centre, it's not.

strassenwo!f

Who are the DDTAS? Just as a matter of interest.

strassenwo!f

Jack Noble wrote: »

FFS, not this nonsense again.

The only person who has 'established' this is you and the only place where it has been 'established' is in your head.

IE, NTA, RPA, DTTAS, DCC -- and pretty much everyone else who understands transportation and urban planning -- accept SSG is the best location for a major interchange station to serve the south city CBD.

The plans are not going to be changed now -- accept that and move on.

Yes we have plenty of documention that says St. Stephen's Green is the right location for integration of the metro, LUAS and DART. Do we have any documentation post the ';Rourke era which says this?

Or the Cullen Era?

That's all ten years ago.

L1011

Do we have anything other than your deranged mind that says that College Green is?

Jamie2k9

So it's perfectly reasonable to suggest the tunnel element may now cost around €2bn - but we won't know for sure until updated estimates are done and tenders sought. But I don't see much scope for savings in the electrification and rolling stock element as those costs will be less likely to change compared to the heavy construction element.

Can't see any new rolling stock planned until Maynooth/M3 are electrified which will probably be mid 20's unless economic conditions improve drastically over the next 6 years.

There is more than enough DART's especially with IE's current system in place to connect Hazelhatch to city centre and demand would need go well above 2007 levels before an order is even placed and DU will probably be well operational by then.

Diesel trains will be allowed to operate in DU?

Aard

MYOB wrote: »

Do we have anything other than your deranged mind that says that College Green is?

Let's leave the insults out.
- Mod.


The St Stephen's Green argument is a well-flogged dead horse at this stage. I would advise those who have no interest in resurrecting it not to concern themselves with counter-arguments.

richiek83

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Who are the DDTAS? Just as a matter of interest.

It's DTTAS. Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport

Grandeeod

Aard wrote: »

Let's leave the insults out.
- Mod.


The St Stephen's Green argument is a well-flogged dead horse at this stage. I would advise those who have no interest in resurrecting it not to concern themselves with counter-arguments.

Ah Mod, cool the jets dude. More offensive stuff like this going unchecked|.

So, Jack, you've been following the whole thing for a decade, and now you find that it's actually not so easy to understand. Perhaps you'll try not to be such a smartass in future.

strassenwo!f

Grandeeod, Jack has been fairly free with his insults about me in the past. What I said there is mild by comparison.

I am surprised by a moderator of this discussion board advocating no discussion of a very relevant issue, though there may be some bias involved on his part as he labels this issue a "dead horse".

To summarise: a route through College Green would offer better passenger uptake efficiency (all day and all week) and would be cheaper than a route through St. Stephen's Green. It would also not cause decades-long destruction of a large section of a much-loved park - College Green could be returned to its current glory after construction, though I have to say I would prefer it to be pedestrianised.

A route through St. Stephen's Green would be more expensive and would not offer the same passenger uptake efficiency, for a number of reasons which have been discussed at length. There would also be destruction of a large section of the park which would be visible for decades.

This is not a dead horse, much as Aard might like it to be.

L1011

There's the slight issue that nobody here agrees with you; nor are your statements of 'fact' actually verifiable.

BowWow

MYOB wrote: »

There's the slight issue that nobody here agrees with you

I'll probably regret this...

I actually agree that the interchange for DU, Luas, and MN should be in College Green area and not SSG.
Its more central. SSG is not the centre of Dublin - where do "An Lar" buses terminate?
Line from Pearse would be shorter - cheaper to construct. A College Green stop would not be too close to Pearse, actually further away than Tara St.
If we were really thinking about integrated transport, we would link a College Green underground station to a new central bus station.
See Post 119 - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=86270591

I'll probably regret this...

murphaph

BowWow wrote: »

where do "An Lar" buses terminate?

Well, until the IRA blew it up, the buses and the trams before them ran mostly to Nelson's Pillar. So why not put the interchange there, if we are using such logic to decide such things.

BowWow wrote: »

I'll probably regret this...

Yeah, most likely!

Anyway, building a large interchange station where 2 undergorund routes are planned to cross is sadly not just about picking the sweetest spot that will deliver the absolute highest footfall. The practical problems of actually building such a complex are part of the decision. Closing College Green to traffic for several years cannot simply be airbrushed out of the equation. The city must continue to function while DU is being built. Using a park has obvious advantages and has been done elsewhere. Munich is using the Marienhof park in this way. If anyone thinks that the route of the tunnel hasn't been influenced by the availability of this park for a station box, well I think that would be naive.

AngryLips

murphaph wrote: »

Well, until the IRA blew it up, the buses and the trams before them ran mostly to Nelson's Pillar. So why not put the interchange there, if we are using such logic to decide such things.

No I think we should dig up what's left of the viking archaeological site underneath Christchurch and put the interchange there since this is the historic "centre" of the settlement that would eventually lead to modern day Dublin.

Copyerselveson

BowWow wrote: »

I'll probably regret this...

I actually agree that the interchange for DU, Luas, and MN should be in College Green area and not SSG.
Its more central. SSG is not the centre of Dublin - where do "An Lar" buses terminate?
Line from Pearse would be shorter - cheaper to construct. A College Green stop would not be too close to Pearse, actually further away than Tara St.
If we were really thinking about integrated transport, we would link a College Green underground station to a new central bus station.
See Post 119 - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=86270591

I'll probably regret this...

On the face of it College Green makes a lot of sense as an interchange spot as you are very near to Grafton Street, Westmoreland Street and O'Connell Bridge. SSG requires a walk down Grafton Street and then College Green and Westmoreland Street to get to O'Connell Bridge.

On the down side - more work would need to be done (and therefore money spent) on reworking the Design Phase of DU to switch the line to College Green. Could be that the expense involved in re-working the DU plans would be so high as to render the College Green option unworkable.

Jack Noble

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Can't see any new rolling stock planned until Maynooth/M3 are electrified which will probably be mid 20's unless economic conditions improve drastically over the next 6 years.

If IE is to deliver the levels of service and frequencies it plans on the extended Dart service it needs to significantly increase the number of EMU rail cars.

There is more than enough DART's especially with IE's current system in place to connect Hazelhatch to city centre and demand would need go well above 2007 levels before an order is even placed and DU will probably be well operational by then.

There are currently 15 four-car sets and 37 two-car sets in the IE Dart fleet -- nowhere near enough to run 5-min frequency peak services with 8-car trains from Maynooth to Greystones and Balbriggan/Clongriffin to Inchicore/Hazelhatch.

In 2008, IE issued a tender for 432 new EMU cars, with a contract value estimated at €900m. That has since been scaled back to 230 new EMU cars.

Diesel trains will be allowed to operate in DU?

No. The Dart tunnel will be restricted to electric rail cars only.

AngryLips

If, for whatever reason, the costings on DU do not include electrification of the Maynooth/Pace line then what is the infrastructure like at Clontarf Road to handle Hazelhatch originating trains as a temporary terminus?

Sam Russell

Jack Noble wrote: »

There are currently 15 four-car sets and 37 two-car sets in the IE Dart fleet

I thought Dart started off with 40 two-car sets. What happened to the other six coaches?

Did they only expand by 60 coaches with the new batch?

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought Dart started off with 40 two-car sets. What happened to the other six coaches?

Did they only expand by 60 coaches with the new batch?

Arson did for some of the original LHB sets. There was also the newer Spanish heaps that have been withdrawn

Sam Russell

If my memory serves me right, the second batch was also 80 coaches. Did they withdraw 20 coaches? Are they that bad? Can they not be reworked?

I thought only one coach was destroyed be arson, and all the old units were revamped/reworked and upgraded.

A decent service, using splitting trains, would allow a much higher service level than we currentlt endure.

The time from one end to the other is approx an hour (and certainly could be made that) means a ten minute service requires 12 trains or 72 EMUs. Even allowing extra units, they have enough at the present time. Currently, trains run every 15 mins.

Jack Noble

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought Dart started off with 40 two-car sets. What happened to the other six coaches?

Did they only expand by 60 coaches with the new batch?

37 were refurbished between 2005 and 2007 -- I guess some cars weren't worth refurbing.

According to IE's website, there are 15 new four car sets and 37 older two-car sets in service.

http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/dart

Sam Russell

While we are talking about current EMUs, why are the old ones used as 6 car sets, mixed in with 8 car sets? It appears to me, the old stock rarely form 8 car sets, no matter the time of the service?

Jamie2k9

If IE is to deliver the levels of service and frequencies it plans on the extended Dart service it needs to significantly increase the number of EMU rail cars.

The plans from 2007/8 are non existent and won't happen when DU first opens.

There are currently 15 four-car sets and 37 two-car sets in the IE Dart fleet -- nowhere near enough to run 5-min frequency peak services with 8-car trains from Maynooth to Greystones and Balbriggan/Clongriffin to Inchicore/Hazelhatch.

In 2008, IE issued a tender for 432 new EMU cars, with a contract value estimated at €900m. That has since been scaled back to 230 new EMU cars.

As no routes will be electrified apart form KRP section there is no need for such an order and a 5 minute frequency will never happen in a million years! When DU becomes operational it will just be Hazelhatch to one fo the current DART terminus. Something like Howth to Hazelhatch and Graystones to Clongrifin. There then may be scope to terminate some Bray-Connolly DARTS in Connolly to make up for the lost frequency over on South side because of services going to Hazelhatch instead of Bray.

You seem to be forgetting IE had money on tap back then and when DU opens (IE are expected to be break even or profitable) and with this in mind such frequency will never be possible.