DART+ (DART Expansion)

Jack Noble

Sam Russell wrote: »

If my memory serves me right, the second batch was also 80 coaches. Did they withdraw 20 coaches? Are they that bad? Can they not be reworked?

I thought only one coach was destroyed be arson, and all the old units were revamped/reworked and upgraded.

A decent service, using splitting trains, would allow a much higher service level than we currentlt endure.

The time from one end to the other is approx an hour (and certainly could be made that) means a ten minute service requires 12 trains or 72 EMUs. Even allowing extra units, they have enough at the present time. Currently, trains run every 15 mins.

5 Alsthom 8200 two-cars sets bought in 1999 were withdrawn and sold off cos IE was not happy with them.

17 85-series four-car sets were delivered by Tokyu between 2001 and 2005 but IE only list 15 in service.

IE may have enough units to serve the present Malahide/Howth to Bray/Greystones services, but a major fleet expansion will be required to provide the greatly enhance two-line services proposed by IE via Dart Underground.

Jack Noble

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The plans from 2007/8 are non existent and won't happen when DU first opens.

The 2008 plan included the replacement of the current fleet. That has since been scaled back.

As no routes will be electrified apart form KRP section there is no need for such an order and a 5 minute frequency will never happen in a million years!

The DartU plan includes the electrification of the Northern line to Drogheda, Maynooth line, and Kildare line to Hazelhatch.

IE's 2010 business case for DU suggested 16 trains per hour per direction through the tunnel at peak times and up to 8 trains per hour on the Maynooth-Greystones line with an additional 2 trains per hour between Connolly and Bray.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/dart_underground_business_case1.pdf?v=grhdepa

Page 61 of 74 in the PDF.

A an updated business case will be published later this year and I've no reason to believe the proposed schedule will be any different. The population of the GDA surpassed the 2016 estimate in 2011 and is still growing - despite the economic crash.

Just reading the BC again, I see that the fleet requirement is now 282 rail cars. That does not say if it included the current fleet or is additional to it. However, given that the service is unlikely to begin before 2022 or 2023 at the earliest, one can presume the 37 older 8100-series units will be due for replacement at that stage.

You seem to be forgetting IE had money on tap back then and when DU opens (IE are expected to be break even or profitable) and with this in mind such frequency will never be possible.

If the demand is there, then IE will provide the peak service to meet it. There's no point spending €2bn-plus on a tunnel and then not utilising it.

strassenwo!f

Murphaph, it's one thing making sensible use of the Marienhof if the route had already been planned to integrate with the U-Bahn at Marienplatz (and with the original S-Bahn station). It's quite another spending an extra couple of hundred million building a large detour so that you can use a park for construction of an underground station.

Jack Noble

AngryLips wrote: »

If, for whatever reason, the costings on DU do not include electrification of the Maynooth/Pace line then what is the infrastructure like at Clontarf Road to handle Hazelhatch originating trains as a temporary terminus?

Maynooth will be electrified, Pace won't.

What has the Maynooth line got to do with Hazelhatch trains - they are separate lines?

Hazelhatch trains will run to Clongriffin and Balbriggan - why would they terminate at Clontarf?

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Murphaph, it's one thing making sensible use of the Marienhof if the route had already been planned to integrate with the U-Bahn at Marienplatz (and with the original S-Bahn station). It's quite another spending an extra couple of hundred million building a large detour so that you can use a park for construction of an underground station.

If you want to discuss your College Green fantasy, why don't you start a separate thread on it?

Leave this thread for people who want to discuss the plan that exists, has been approved by ABP and which IE and the govt hope to proceed with in 2016.

Jamie2k9

Jack Noble wrote: »

The 2008 plan included the replacement of the current fleet. That has since been scaled back.

The DartU plan includes the electrification of the Northern line to Drogheda, Maynooth line, and Kildare line to Hazelhatch.

IE's 2010 business case for DU suggested 16 trains per hour per direction through the tunnel at peak times and up to 8 trains per hour on the Maynooth-Greystones line with an additional 2 trains per hour between Connolly and Bray.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/dart_underground_business_case1.pdf?v=grhdepa

Page 61 of 74 in the PDF.

A an updated business case will be published later this year and I've no reason to believe the proposed schedule will be any different. The population of the GDA surpassed the 2016 estimate in 2011 and is still growing - despite the economic crash.

Just reading the BC again, I see that the fleet requirement is now 282 rail cars. That does not say if it included the current fleet or is additional to it. However, given that the service is unlikely to begin before 2022 or 2023 at the earliest, one can presume the 37 older 8100-series units will be due for replacement at that stage.


If the demand is there, then IE will provide the peak service to meet it. There's no point spending €2bn-plus on a tunnel and then not utilising it.

That's the wider plan and it won't be completed for up to around 20 years unless the Government has lots of cash to splash which it doesn't. You thinking other wise is unbelievable. All capital spending over the next 10 years isn't going to go into rail.....

Demand and Profit are both very different and unless both can be combined together extra service will NOT happen and there will never be a 5 minute frequency during the majority of posters working lives on here. 10 at best.

Jack Noble

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

That's the wider plan and it won't be completed for up to around 20 years unless the Government has lots of cash to splash which it doesn't. You thinking other wise is unbelievable. All capital spending over the next 10 years isn't going to go into rail.....

The DartU project qualifies for EU funding under TEN-T - up to 30% of the cost. It will also involve EIB loans and PPP funding. The exchequer contribution is expected to be around €1bn over eight years. It is considered affordable -- that's why it is back on the agenda again.

Demand and Profit are both very different and unless both can be combined together extra service will NOT happen and there will never be a 5 minute frequency during the majority of posters working lives on here. 10 at best.

Extra services will be put on at peak if the demand is there because that's what will drive revenue and ultimately profits. Demand is increasing on both IE Dart and Commuter services in and around Dublin and will continue to grow as the economy recovers - and thre only way IE can increase its revenues and profits is to serve that demand.

Just how many trains per peak hour do you believe IE will run through the tunnel when it opens in 2022/23?

Jamie2k9

Extra services will be put on at peak if the demand is there because that's what will drive revenue and ultimately profits. Demand is increasing on both IE Dart and Commuter services in and around Dublin and will continue to grow as the economy recovers.

Just how many trains per peak hour do you believe IE will run through the tunnel when it opens in 2022/23?

Today demand is there for extra services or even coaches but they don't operate because they don't generate a profit.

Numbers will need to recover to 2006/7 levels as will frequency and with the CC re signalling in place before DU even opens to passengers there is high scope for increase the flow of service into the city centre so me posting a figure for DU would be stupid but it will depend on demand from Kildare line primarily which is good but will need major growth to justify high frequency DART service.

The main point is that your posts seem to suggest that there will be x and y amounts of service when in fact it was always going to be very different even if it was being build on schedule as a lot of the PR around services was referring to capacity that will be available and not actual service.

And after doing a quick search it DOES NOT qualify for EU funding under Ten-T

Jack Noble

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Today demand is there for extra services or even coaches but they don't operate because they don't generate a profit.

Numbers will need to recover to 2006/7 levels as will frequency and with the CC re signalling in place before DU even opens to passengers there is high scope for increase the flow of service into the city centre so me posting a figure for DU would be stupid but it will depend on demand from Kildare line primarily which is good but will need major growth to justify high frequency DART service.

The main point is that your posts seem to suggest that there will be x and y amounts of service when in fact it was always going to be very different even if it was being build on schedule as a lot of the PR around services was referring to capacity that will be available and not actual service.

The whole point of DU is to expand the Dart service and bring it into the busiest area of the city centre - of course demand is going to increase from that alone. And it will also increase as the population and employment increases both in the city centre and along the lines through west and north Dublin into Kildare, Meath and Louth.

IE will provide the higher frequency services to give people a fixed timetable and then manage capacity over the day through the train lengths - just as it's done in other cities.

The demand today is being served by increased capacity when its needed and reduced when it's not.

Another point is that electrification of the lines and new EMU cars will significantly reduce operating costs compared to diesel, allowing for increased frequencies without increasing operating costs.

monument

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

And after doing a quick search it DOES NOT qualify for EU funding under Ten-T

Yes. Yes, it does. How are you coming it another conclusion?

This is what the commission said in 2012:

"The detailed design, including the work planning programme was completed at the end of 2009. €10 million from the TEN-T budget under the Multi-Annual programme has been earmarked for this purpose."

"Due to the financial crisis, the project has been postponed for consideration in advance of the next capital pro- gramme which will be drawn up in 2015 and will cover the period from 2016 onwards.
While the DART Underground Tunnel project has been postponed there may be elements of the overall Pro- gramme, such as some re-signalling and/or electrification which of themselves will bring benefits and which, subject to funding availability and other priorities, may be progressed in the period to 2016."

They also part-funded the city centre re-signaling project and they see this as interlinked with Dart Underground.

It's been made more than crystal clear that the EIB and the EC via the T-Ten project want to fund or loan money for transport projects.

Jack Noble

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

And after doing a quick search it DOES NOT qualify for EU funding under Ten-T

WTF?

You may want to tell Leo Varadkar that. This is what he told the Shift2Rail conference in Dublin on December 16, 2013.

http://www.dttas.ie/speeches/2013/speech-minister-transport-tourism-sport-leo-varadkar-shift2rail-briefing-dublin

My Department has commenced work on a “Strategic Investment Framework for Land Transport” as a foundation document to inform the next Capital plan. The priorities for rail investment will be a major part of the Framework and I expect that the deficiencies which the Dart Underground was to address will be highlighted. I recently met with officials from the EU Commission and the Ten-T Executive Agency in Brussels who confirmed their positive views towards the Dart Underground. The EIB had also indicated a keen interest in supporting DU and this interest was confirmed to me at a meeting with the EIB Management Board on 29 April last. The Dart Underground has been included in the new Ten-T Core Network and is part of one of the nine Core Corridors. Dart Underground is likely to be a priority in the context of the next capital plan subject to an appropriate funding package being developed.

L1011

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Murphaph, it's one thing making sensible use of the Marienhof if the route had already been planned to integrate with the U-Bahn at Marienplatz (and with the original S-Bahn station). It's quite another spending an extra couple of hundred million building a large detour so that you can use a park for construction of an underground station.

Have you somehow managed to wipe the fact that there is an interchange planned for SSG from your mind?

You are the one proposing a large detour and hundreds of millions more here - don't forget that.

markpb

Jack Noble wrote: »

The Extra services will be put on at peak if the demand is there because that's what will drive revenue and ultimately profits.

I'm not sure that's correct. Peak services are the most expensive to provide because the short-term influx of passengers requires hiring extra drivers and purchasing extra rolling stock, neither of which will be useful out of the relatively small peak window. Additionally, those passengers are the ones most likely to hold period passes and, thus, are paying less per trip.

Profit is driven by efficient operation and a relatively flat curve of demand across the operating hours. Having big peaks or low troughs (or both) is very inefficient.

Jamie2k9

IE will provide the higher frequency services to give people a fixed timetable and then manage capacity over the day through the train lengths - just as it's done in other cities.

The demand today is being served by increased capacity when its needed and reduced when it's not.

Another point is that electrification of the lines and new EMU cars will significantly reduce operating costs compared to diesel, allowing for increased frequencies without increasing operating costs.

Yes demand will increase however it will not increase to the levels to match the demand for the PR IE gave a few years about extra services and all the spin. It simply won't happen.

As for fixed timetable and capacity when needed and when not needed, that is all sensible however it is not happening as IE, sense and customers don't made a good combination where they do elsewhere.

DMU and EMU cots would be down however core costs would still exist.

What is your agenda, you are fixated on IE drastically increasing services when "everyday" users of the railway network know that it simply won't happen. As passengers recover it will happen on a smaller scale. Numbers are still down around 9 million on peak years which are largely commuters and then if you included 2012 projects made back in 2006/7 (when DU was due to start construction) that probably adds a few more million to it and that level will not be easy to recover by any means.

You don't strike me as a regular commuter with Irish Rail as if you were you wouldn't be posting what you are....

It's been made more than crystal clear that the EIB and the EC via the T-Ten project want to fund or loan money for transport projects.

Fair enough, just where I read about T-Ten, it didn't really relate to commuter sort of projects.

Jack Noble

markpb wrote: »

I'm not sure that's correct. Peak services are the most expensive to provide because the short-term influx of passengers requires hiring extra drivers and purchasing extra rolling stock, neither of which will be useful out of the relatively small peak window. Additionally, those passengers are the ones most likely to hold period passes and, thus, are paying less per trip.

Profit is driven by efficient operation and a relatively flat curve of demand across the operating hours. Having big peaks or low troughs (or both) is very inefficient.

Two thirds of IE's Dart passengers use the service over the four peak hours daily - the remaining third is over the 14 hours of the day.

While IE can expect off-peak passenger numbers to increase post-DU it will still need to serve the highest demand and that is peak morning and evening hours -- when the majority of commuters will want to and need to travel.

And that is where the majority of Dart revenue will come from, whether it is single full fare tickets, discounted Leap fares or or monthly or annual discounted tickets/passes.

The same applies to Luas - the majority off daily passengers are in the peak periods and the service frequency reflects that.

And Luas both efficient and profitable.

Jack Noble

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes demand will increase however it will not increase to the levels to match the demand for the PR IE gave a few years about extra services and all the spin. It simply won't happen.

And you base this sweeping statement on what evidence exactly?

As for fixed timetable and capacity when needed and when not needed, that is all sensible however it is not happening as IE, sense and customers don't made a good combination where they do elsewhere.

I think that answers the above - your personal view of IE and nothing else.

DMU and EMU cots would be down however core costs would still exist.

Fuel and maintenance costs are a major part of IE's cost base -- savings in the region of 20% to 30% due to the switch to EMU from DMU will have massive effect on IE's cost base.

What is your agenda, you are fixated on IE drastically increasing services when "everyday" users of the railway network know that it simply won't happen. As passengers recover it will happen on a smaller scale. Numbers are still down around 9 million on peak years which are largely commuters and then if you included 2012 projects made back in 2006/7 (when DU was due to start construction) that probably adds a few more million to it and that level will not be easy to recover by any means.

My 'agenda' is wanting a proper public transport system in and around Dublin. Period.

And IE will deliver the service the NTA tells it to deliver in line with govt policy. Just as the RPA and Trandev do with Luas.

You don't strike me as a regular commuter with Irish Rail as if you were you wouldn't be posting what you are....

I'm a regular Luas commuter because I live close to the Red line. And I use the Dart when I need to go places along that line. When DartU construction begins and the time comes to move to a bigger house, guess which areas I'll be looking in?

Jamie2k9

And you base this sweeping statement on what evidence exactly?

The evidence when it was produced on are very different to the projected numbers by 2018.

I think that answers the above - your personal view of IE and nothing else.

Nobody else really? MYOB or markpb do you feel Irish Rail services/capacity is currently acceptable and do you anticipate any improvement long term?

Fuel and maintenance costs are a major part of IE's cost base -- savings in the region of 20% to 30% due to the switch to EMU from DMU will have massive effect on IE's cost base.

Yes but enough to be profitable?

My 'agenda' is wanting a proper public transport system in and around Dublin. Period.

And IE will deliver the service the NTA tells it to deliver in line with govt policy. Just as the RPA and Trandev do with Luas.

Govt policy for railways is make money or else.......have you not being keeping in touch with news recently. NTA will be getting less money for railways unless they make money so that means IE won't have to do anything.

I'm a regular Luas commuter because I live close to the Red line. And I use the Dart when I need to go places along that line. When DartU construction begins and the time comes to move to a bigger house, guess which areas I'll be looking in?

There's the problem, you don't use IE enough to understand the current problems. Have a read of Commuting and Transport forum to see the problems.

I to live on the Red Line and its a fantastic service and well one something which IE doesn't currently offer.

And Luas both efficient and profitable.

Efficient but not fully profitable. Around 1.5 million in the red but nothing major.

murphaph

I suppose they could electrify Hazelhatch-Clontarf (via tunnel) and run EMUs from Hazelhatch-Malahide/Howth and also EMUs Bray/Greystones-Grand Canal Dock and run DMUs Maynooth/Pace-Grand Canal Dock. That might get some more use out of the DMU stock for a few years and then they could electrify Maynooth and run through through EMU services as planned. No ideal, would be nicer to have all electric setup from the start and cascade the DMUs to the outer suburban routes or non-electrified cities, maybe even long term lease to NIR.

richiek83

According to this website, the estimated cost is €3 billion. It states in the article that "It is important to note that the provision of rolling stock will not form part of this contract"

http://www.cisireland.com/projectdescription.aspx?id=867

Either way, true cost will not be known until if and when tenders are received.

Jamie2k9

murphaph wrote: »

I suppose they could electrify Hazelhatch-Clontarf (via tunnel) and run EMUs from Hazelhatch-Malahide/Howth and also EMUs Bray/Greystones-Grand Canal Dock and run DMUs Maynooth/Pace-Grand Canal Dock. That might get some more use out of the DMU stock for a few years and then they could electrify Maynooth and run through through EMU services as planned. No ideal, would be nicer to have all electric setup from the start and cascade the DMUs to the outer suburban routes or non-electrified cities, maybe even long term lease to NIR.

By the time DU underground first phase opens (KRP electrification) the 2900 will be around 20 years old (2022 is provided works start by 2016) so then add a few more years before Maynooth/M3 goes EMU's and that will bring them close to 25 years.

Cork commuter is bound to grown and require additional rolling stock probably 2900 which will taken them close to 30 years and keeping them beyond that would not be economical as more fuel efficient DMU's will be produced in the next 10 years.

theKillerBite

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Efficient but not fully profitable. Around 1.5 million in the red but nothing major.

It's making a profit

Record passenger numbers for the Luas were not enough to prevent pretax profits at its French-owned operator last year slipping by 25 per cent last year to €1.39 million.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/transport-and-tourism/luas-pretax-profit-down-25-to-1-39m-1.1598050

LXFlyer

Yes but we've not seen the RPA results yet which will give the full picture.

D.L.R.

http://infrapppworld.com/2014/05/megaproject-228-ireland-relaunches-dart-underground-project.html
Ireland relaunches DART Underground project

Lets hope this doesn't suffer any more setbacks!

murphaph

If this actually gets built the most important thing it will do is create a new realisation among Dubliners that Dublin can build underground railways and that they are worth it. Transport might finally become a serious political issue and people might start looking at their own areas and electing people who run on transport tickets (pardon the pun). I would expect the residents of the Metro North corridor to take notice of DU and say, hey, our stalled plan should be next! It's time for Dubs to fight for their infrastructure. We just need one big project to get the ball rolling and DU always made the most sense. With a bit of luck by the time it's built, the railways will have been taken off IE and will be run by a company that understands customers.

theKillerBite

Irish Rail released plans for the bridge over the Coolmine railway crossing (FOI request from Roderick O'Gorman).

murphaph

That'll piss the locals off there and delight them in equal measure. I was looking at this on google maps last year and came to the same conclusion that they'd more or less have to go that way to replace the Coolmine crossing. Technically you could replicate option 4 at the existing crossing point but you'd have traffic chaos in the area during the construction phase as the crossing would need to completely close for several months.

I feel sorry for people who may have bought in the affected area, but this has to be done or spending billions on the tunnel component will be partially wasted. Both DART routes need turn up and go frequency once DU is up and running and it's not possible without eliminating the at grade crossing at Coolmine (among others).

TheBandicoot

I really can't tell where this would go, can someone mspaint a line on Google Maps or something? Can' t find the streets mentioned in the document.

murphaph

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I really can't tell where this would go, can someone mspaint a line on Google Maps or something? Can' t find the streets mentioned in the document.

The bunglaow in the middle of this page will be demolished. The bridge will span across at this point.

TheBandicoot

Ah, thanks, can see the basic route now I think.

liamog

By the looks of it that land has always been reserved for a transport corridor