DART+ (DART Expansion)

Sam Russell · 30-06-2014 11:45pm

Picadilly is not the centre of London, and certainly not so convenient for the City. Crossrail will be their third attempt at it.

Edit:
According to TFL, the shortest time given for travel to Charing Cross, leaving at 8:00 am is 48 mins, with other options taking 52 mins. This includes quite a bit of walking (with suitcases) and does not include waiting time - so I stand by my hour time to get to central London. The Heathrow Express saves the four minutes and costs a fortune.

strassenwo!f · 01-07-2014 5:41am

Jack Noble wrote: »

WTF?

What 'St Stephen's Green detour'?

It's a detour in the sense that it is a longer route than the obvious, direct, one.

Jack Noble wrote: »

SSG has been planned as a major Metro/Dart interchange since 2001 when an expanded Dart network was put back on the agenda as part of PFC.

Yes, we've been through that before Jack. We have no information that the DTO ever bothered to look at the DRRTS plan. It certainly didn't appear so in their (or IE's) presentation to ABP, for a railway order. We don't have any information that they ever, from their offices in St. Stephen's Green, looked at any routes apart from the potential one going through St. Stephen's Green, where they knew the LUAS was going to be stuck for at least a number of years.

Jack Noble wrote: »

Dart Underground was never going anywhere near College Green -- except in your head.

Nor has it any need to because such a line would not serve the three major areas planners want to serve -- north Docklands and IFSC, south Docklands and Pearse/Trinity/Merrion Square, and the south city CBD centred around SSG.

College Green would seem to be on a pretty direct route between Heuston and the proposed Docklands station. I'd be surprised if this direct route wasn't considered, and as I show below, I'd like to know why it was discounted, especially if (as you earlier said) disruption wasn't a factor.

We don't (or at least I don't) know the other locations which the RPA were talking about, and about which ABP didn't ask, but can you let us assume that one of them was around College Green. Instead of the Heuston-Docklands route with a longer, more expensive St. Stephen's Green loop, a direct Heuston-College Green-Pearse Station-Docklands route might be feasible.

Such a route should certainly cater well for commuters heading to the Docklands, despite what you say, and for the Pearse/Trinity/Merrion Square area, also despite what you say.

And if you look at the figures for that direct route, it's quite interesting also in relation to the St. Stephen's Green angle (I'm not sure I've managed to get everything to fit onto the page, but I am grateful to the poster Monument for providing the detail).

And he has kindly added the Metro North stops in, in purple:

Jack, you should, I hope, be able to see here that the biggest area of high employment density in the city is directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green, so there doesn't appear to be any advantage to building the considerably longer, more expensive, St. Stephen's Green route to cater for that high-density area.

While there is a high-density employment area in the north inner city, there is a considerably larger area of high-density employment, as shown on the map, in the south city. You referred to this above.

The problem with that high-density area in the south city, around the Harcourt Centre, Adelaide Road, etc., is that it is quite remote from the proposed St. Stephen's Green interchange, which it is allegedly intended to serve. Given that it is broadly around a kilometre from the proposed interchange, I think it's much more likely that people working there will change onto the LUAS (or a southbound metro, when it's eventually built).

Assuming, of course, that the transport bods in Dublin can eventually get their heads around the benefits of integrated ticketing. (Not a given, I know). But let's assume that they can. That high-density employment area around Hatch Street and Harcourt Street is absolutely not served by a station at St. Stephen's Green.

Folk who work in those areas will eventually be changing onto the metro or LUAS, whether the interchange is at College Green or St. Stephen's Green. From College Green versus St. Stephen's Green, an extra minute on the metro, or around an extra four on the LUAS.

Jack, you may think that it's an important factor to make their miniscule metro or LUAS trip that little bit shorter. I'm not convinced that I see this as a priority for Dublin, at this stage.

So, it does seem to be incorrect to say that commuters in the south city (ie around Hatch Street, Earlsfort Terrace, The Harcourt Centre) have a seriously better commuting option because of a circuitous, more expensive route via St. Stephen's Green. And I'm not convinced that the State benefits in any significant way by building this longer, more expensive route.

And then, we also need to look at the non-commuter traffic, which will sustain the proposed line throughout the day, between the commuting hours. There is nothing on the southside of St. Stephen's Green which can sustain retail or entertainment traffic to the extent that either side of College Green can.

All in all, for commuter traffic, and general traffic thoughout the day, what's going on in my crazy head is still saying College Green.

Shorter and cheaper, efficient for commuters to high-density working areas, and then also more efficient for people who want to get to major retail and entertainment areas.

L1011 · 01-07-2014 8:58am

You keep saying "more expensive route" like you've some proof there. You don't.

LXFlyer · 01-07-2014 10:49am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Picadilly is not the centre of London, and certainly not so convenient for the City. Crossrail will be their third attempt at it.

Edit:
According to TFL, the shortest time given for travel to Charing Cross, leaving at 8:00 am is 48 mins, with other options taking 52 mins. This includes quite a bit of walking (with suitcases) and does not include waiting time - so I stand by my hour time to get to central London. The Heathrow Express saves the four minutes and costs a fortune.

Gosh you could have fooled me about that. Piccadilly Circus is pretty central as far as I and most people would tell.

As a regular traveller to/from London, I can stand over the 40 minutes time frame using the Heathrow Express. I've done it many times.

The reality is that people are all going to different parts of the city, and Paddington is well connected through the Underground lines to facilitate that. They're not all going to the City of London area either. Paddington is directly connected to all the other major rail terminals by a single underground journey.

I can't really see where else you could have routed the Heathrow Express to without incurring major additional cost and taking capacity into account.

murphaph · 01-07-2014 12:16pm

MYOB wrote: »

You keep saying "more expensive route" like you've some proof there. You don't.

Inded he doesn't. The "detour" the TBM makes is not going to add significantly to cost. The expensive business with TBMs is the launch pit and that is required either way.

In fact, the disruption to the economy alone through a prolonged closure of College Green could outweigh any savings that may be made through a shorter route. Never mind the extra construction costs involved in building there as opposed to using a bit of the park (no shallow foundations to underpin etc.)

I would actually favour the route Strassenwolf proposes IF there was never going to be any more underground rail built in Dublin but Metro North is planned to go right up the centre of that employment hotspot north of the river, so it will certainly not be poorly catered for long term, quite the contrary. In the context of MN I believe the SSG route makes a lot of sense however.

LXFlyer · 01-07-2014 12:43pm

MYOB wrote: »

You keep saying "more expensive route" like you've some proof there. You don't.

Nor did he bother answering why he doesn't contact Irish Rail directly.

Yet more "red mist" regurgitating all his earlier posts.

Sam Russell · 01-07-2014 12:47pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Gosh you could have fooled me about that. Piccadilly Circus is pretty central as far as I and most people would tell.

As a regular traveller to/from London, I can stand over the 40 minutes time frame using the Heathrow Express. I've done it many times.

The reality is that people are all going to different parts of the city, and Paddington is well connected through the Underground lines to facilitate that. They're not all going to the City of London area either. Paddington is directly connected to all the other major rail terminals by a single underground journey.

I can't really see where else you could have routed the Heathrow Express to without incurring major additional cost and taking capacity into account.

Distances to/from London are measured to/from Charing Cross, but Picadilly or Oxford Circus would, for Tourists, be considered central, but they are actually referred to as 'the West End' and so are not central. However, it is only minutes to go the further distance. Paddington is not that great an exchange point which is why they are reworking it. 48 mins via the Heathrow Express vs 51 min by Picadilly line is not much of an express route in my book and is not much less than an hour as to make much difference. At least going on the Picadilly line means no changes. A 15 min express ride followed by a 7 min walk does no rate in my book.

However, the Dart spur, if used in conjunction with DU would be fantastic. Airport, Connolly - or - Airport, Spencer Dock, Pearse, Stephens Green, Christ Church, Heuston. Would beat the current service for most people.

LXFlyer · 01-07-2014 1:11pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Distances to/from London are measured to/from Charing Cross, but Picadilly or Oxford Circus would, for Tourists, be considered central, but they are actually referred to as 'the West End' and so are not central. However, it is only minutes to go the further distance. Paddington is not that great an exchange point which is why they are reworking it. 48 mins via the Heathrow Express vs 51 min by Picadilly line is not much of an express route in my book and is not much less than an hour as to make much difference. At least going on the Picadilly line means no changes. A 15 min express ride followed by a 7 min walk does no rate in my book.

However, the Dart spur, if used in conjunction with DU would be fantastic. Airport, Connolly - or - Airport, Spencer Dock, Pearse, Stephens Green, Christ Church, Heuston. Would beat the current service for most people.

Let's be honest people are going to different parts of the city - Paddington facilitates travel to all major railway stations via a single onward journey, and most parts of central London. I don't think you can arbitrarily cherry pick one location and then say that the Heathrow Express is useless.

Whatever the journey planner says, I can tell you that I have regularly got from Piccadilly Circus to Heathrow using Bakerloo and Heathrow Express in 40 minutes, not 48. It's all about timing - knowing where the exit at Paddington is and getting into the closest coach on the tube, and knowing the fastest walking routes, knowing the departure times of the Heathrow Express, and tube journey times - all of this becomes second nature if you do it often enough.

There are plenty of places that Heathrow Express offers a much faster (and more pleasant) journey than the Piccadilly line. It also offers certainty of departure time and journey time between Paddington and Heathrow, something that can be missing on the tube. I use it generally going to the airport when I know I'll get a seat, and I have certainty that it will arrive at a particular time. Coming in the other direction I generally use either Heathrow Connect, the Piccadilly line, or take a bus to Feltham and use the train towards Waterloo.

I think that changing between modes at Paddington boils down to personal choice - internationally most people are used to changing modes en route than Irish people. I don't think that is a big deal at all for someone with a single bag as most business people would be. Inevitably most people are going to have to change somewhere.

Clearly quite a lot of people don't share your view as the service is well patronised.

Anyhow, we are digressing from DART Underground - I would concur that if DART Underground is built that the option of a direct Airport spur becomes far more attractive. It would also offer interchange with the Enterprise at Clongriffen.

Amirani · 01-07-2014 1:25pm

It's extremely rare for Paddington to be someone's final destination, probably the least likely of the main line termini in London.

If you're designing the perfect Heathrow link from scratch, it's not going to go to Paddington. The only reason it goes there is because of the existing infrastructure on the Great Western Main Line.

Aard · 01-07-2014 1:52pm

Let's try to bring the thread back to Dart Underground. Feel free to start a new thread on infrastructure in London.

- Mod.

Jack Noble · 01-07-2014 1:56pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It's a detour in the sense that it is a longer route than the obvious, direct, one.

So it's not a detour but an alternative route -- as proposed by YOU.

Yes, we've been through that before Jack. We have no information that the DTO ever bothered to look at the DRRTS plan. It certainly didn't appear so in their (or IE's) presentation to ABP, for a railway order. We don't have any information that they ever, from their offices in St. Stephen's Green, looked at any routes apart from the potential one going through St. Stephen's Green, where they knew the LUAS was going to be stuck for at least a number of years.

The DRRTS plan dates from 1975 -- Dublin has changed massively since then, both in the city centre area, the docklands and the suburbs. The long-term transport development strategies drawn up by the DTO and later the NTA reflect this. Bar the fundamental concepts of two underground lines -- north-south and east-west -- intersecting in a key city centre location, DRRTS is redundant for the Dublin of today and tomorrow.

College Green would seem to be on a pretty direct route between Heuston and the proposed Docklands station. I'd be surprised if this direct route wasn't considered, and as I show below, I'd like to know why it was discounted, especially if (as you earlier said) disruption wasn't a factor.

DartU is not simply about connecting the Northern and Kildare lines via Heuston but also serving highest demand areas in between. And those, in terms of employment, residential and leisure are the north Docklands, south Docklands/Pearse/Trinity/Merrion Square, and the south city CBD centred around St Stephen's Green. That is what the DTO/NTA and IE set out to address with Interconnector/DartU and that reflects the chosen route and station points.

You, on the other hand, have fixated on the idea that College Green would make a great interchange station on a direct line between the Northern Line and Heuston and therefore the shortest route is via CG.

DartU is not simply about the shortest route from A to B but about serving the maximum demand between A and B.

DTO/NTA and IE know this and that is why they have chosen the route and stations which have now received a Railway Order from ABP.

You also ignore the critical point that College Green is not an appropriate place for a major interchange station because of its tight confines for construction, the need to protect so many historic buildings, the massive disruption to the daily fabric of the city such construction would bring and, most critically of all, there is not a chance in hell that any government would approve such works in the first place given the controversy and public backlash there would be due to the aforementioned reasons.

We don't (or at least I don't) know the other locations which the RPA were talking about, and about which ABP didn't ask, but can you let us assume that one of them was around College Green. Instead of the Heuston-Docklands route with a longer, more expensive St. Stephen's Green loop, a direct Heuston-College Green-Pearse Station-Docklands route might be feasible.

Yes we do - Liffey Junction, Drumcondra and Tara Street for the Maynooth-Bray Dart and SSG for Dart Underground. Just look at the alternative routes for Metro North put out for public consultation and the chosen route whoch received a Railway Order.

It's not the role of the RPA to tell IE where to route its lines or where to locate its stations. And in the case of the existing rail lines, the RPA's options were limited in the first place.

Of course a Docklands-Pearse-College Green-Heuston route is 'feasible' but it makes no sense for the reasons already outlined by myself and others -- reasons which you ignore to push your fantasy route.

Just look at that route you have chose on a map. Given that the two Dart lines must interchange at Pearse, where exactly would you put the interchange stations at Pearse and CG to allow for a tunnel alignment between the two?

And if you can't see the glaring problems here, it tells me you haven't thought far beyond a line on the map between Pearse and CG.

Such a route should certainly cater well for commuters heading to the Docklands, despite what you say, and for the Pearse/Trinity/Merrion Square area, also despite what you say.

It would -- but it would also ignore the tens of thousands of commuters working north of SSG. That's another key factor about the chosen route you keep ignoring.

And if you look at the figures for that direct route, it's quite interesting also in relation to the St. Stephen's Green angle (I'm not sure I've managed to get everything to fit onto the page, but I am grateful to the poster Monument for providing the detail).

And he has kindly added the Metro North stops in, in purple:

Jack, you should, I hope, be able to see here that the biggest area of high employment density in the city is directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green, so there doesn't appear to be any advantage to building the considerably longer, more expensive, St. Stephen's Green route to cater for that high-density area.

The highest density employment area in the city is that between the Liffey and the Grand Canal, the epicentre of which is SSG. Again, you keep ignoring this although it is plain as day in the maps you have just referenced.

While there is a high-density employment area in the north inner city, there is a considerably larger area of high-density employment, as shown on the map, in the south city. You referred to this above.

Well, at least you are acknowledging a degree of reality here.

The problem with that high-density area in the south city, around the Harcourt Centre, Adelaide Road, etc., is that it is quite remote from the proposed St. Stephen's Green interchange, which it is allegedly intended to serve. Given that it is broadly around a kilometre from the proposed interchange, I think it's much more likely that people working there will change onto the LUAS (or a southbound metro, when it's eventually built).

It's not 'quite remote' - it's 5 to 15-minute walk from the top of Grafton Street, depending on where you are going. My wife works in Earlsfort Terrace, a 10-minute stroll across the Green from the top of Grafton Street.

Assuming, of course, that the transport bods in Dublin can eventually get their heads around the benefits of integrated ticketing. (Not a given, I know). But let's assume that they can. That high-density employment area around Hatch Street and Harcourt Street is absolutely not served by a station at St. Stephen's Green.

It is - on foot, by Luas and by Dublin Bikes.

Folk who work in those areas will eventually be changing onto the metro or LUAS, whether the interchange is at College Green or St. Stephen's Green. From College Green versus St. Stephen's Green, an extra minute on the metro, or around an extra four on the LUAS.

Which means it really doesn't matter if the interchange is at either because the distance and time is negligble on Luas/Metro.

Jack, you may think that it's an important factor to make their miniscule metro or LUAS trip that little bit shorter. I'm not convinced that I see this as a priority for Dublin, at this stage.

Not sure what this means.

So, it does seem to be incorrect to say that commuters in the south city (ie around Hatch Street, Earlsfort Terrace, The Harcourt Centre) have a seriously better commuting option because of a circuitous, more expensive route via St. Stephen's Green. And I'm not convinced that the State benefits in any significant way by building this longer, more expensive route.

In your opinion. However, the transport planners see it rather differently.

And then, we also need to look at the non-commuter traffic, which will sustain the proposed line throughout the day, between the commuting hours. There is nothing on the southside of St. Stephen's Green which can sustain retail or entertainment traffic to the extent that either side of College Green can.

There doesn't need to be - there is more than enough in the area between SSG, the Liffey, Merrion Square and St Patrick's/Christchurch to sustain such traffic.

All in all, for commuter traffic, and general traffic thoughout the day, what's going on in my crazy head is still saying College Green.

Your words, not mine.

Shorter and cheaper, efficient for commuters to high-density working areas, and then also more efficient for people who want to get to major retail and entertainment areas.

The DartU line is not 'shorter' because it's designed to serve certain areas, not simply link Docklands to Heuston.

And how do you know it's 'cheaper'? Have you detailed costings for the two proposals?

Can you tell us the difference in tunneling costs between your 'shorter' route via CG and NTA/IE's 'detour' route via SSG?

Can you tell us the difference in construction costs between corresponding deep-level interchange stations at CG and SSG, or alternatives for the Pearse interchange necessitated by a CG routing?

Have you allowed for the costs associated with any delays that would be enforced on any construction at CG given the inevitable court challenges and protests that would happen if such massive works at CG were given the go-ahead?

And what about any CPO costs for properties in the CG area - have you factored those into your 'cheaper' route?

I won't be holding my breath for detailed, fully costed answers.

BTW, have you asked the NTA, IE and RPA yet why they ignored the obvious location of College Green?

Sam Russell · 01-07-2014 1:59pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Clearly quite a lot of people don't share your view as the service is well patronised.

All public transport links in London are well patronised and many people going through Heathrow are not paying their own fare. Also, it is a big city and public transport is the only real option for many. HE cost £21 for a single journey to Paddington, while an off peak travel card zones 1-6 cost £8.90 all day. For 4 mins, I'll take the Picadilly line.

For Dublin, a train connection is vital and the spur provides it at low (relative) cost. The future implementation of DU makes it a no-brainer so it should be done asap.

LXFlyer · 01-07-2014 2:02pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

All public transport links in London are well patronised and many people going through Heathrow are not paying their own fare. Also, it is a big city and public transport is the only real option for many. HE cost £21 for a single journey to Paddington, while an off peak travel card zones 1-6 cost £8.90 all day. For 4 mins, I'll take the Picadilly line.

For Dublin, a train connection is vital and the spur provides it at low (relative) cost. The future implementation of DU makes it a no-brainer so it should be done asap.

But for many people the difference can be far more than 4 minutes - you're assuming that everyone using it is going to one place which they clearly are not. In my own case the difference is 10-20 minutes depending upon where I'm coming from, a guaranteed seat and a certain arrival time. Personally I'm prepared to pay the difference for that.

Apologies mods - didn't see the post above!!

donvito99 · 02-07-2014 7:11am

Strassen I think you may have shot yourself in the foot there with that excellelnt (thank you) map. SSG looks like the ideal location now.

Not that this should stop you.

Schadenfreudia · 03-07-2014 1:12pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

However, the Dart spur, if used in conjunction with DU would be fantastic. Airport, Connolly - or - Airport, Spencer Dock, Pearse, Stephens Green, Christ Church, Heuston. Would beat the current service for most people.

Any drawings of the DART spur - exact route? Any intermediate stations planned on the new bit or would it be an express?

LXFlyer · 03-07-2014 1:34pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Any drawings of the DART spur - exact route? Any intermediate stations planned on the new bit or would it be an express?

No drawings available - but it would branch off north of Clongriffin and go non-stop to the Airport from there.

Sam Russell · 03-07-2014 2:25pm

There is about 5km of railway across green fields with a couple of minor bridges and the M1 to cope with and a tunnel or elevated run into the airport. Either way it is a small project and could be done quickly. Whatever happens with DU, it would be a huge benefit to the airport. Express would be prefered since most passengers would be going into the city and have baggage.

A single track would work but would be much better to have dual track.

Amirani · 03-07-2014 3:55pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is about 5km of railway across green fields with a couple of minor bridges and the M1 to cope with and a tunnel or elevated run into the airport. Either way it is a small project and could be done quickly. Whatever happens with DU, it would be a huge benefit to the airport. Express would be prefered since most passengers would be going into the city and have baggage.

Even Airport > Howth Junction > Connolly would be a great line. Extensions to Pearse and/or Heuston possible too.

1huge1 · 03-07-2014 8:33pm

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Even Airport > Howth Junction > Connolly would be a great line. Extensions to Pearse and/or Heuston possible too.

Well technically with the usage of the Phoenix Park tunnel and the building of the spur to the airport, we could see trains from Cork even heading to Dublin airport. But the line would be too heavily congested to add too much to it.

With the Dart Underground however, the effectiveness of a spur to the airport would greatly increase.

Just by viewing the supposed line on google maps, it doesn't seem like a huge project. As has been said, its mostly greenfield.

Sam Russell · 03-07-2014 10:13pm

1huge1 wrote: »

Well technically with the usage of the Phoenix Park tunnel and the building of the spur to the airport, we could see trains from Cork even heading to Dublin airport. But the line would be too heavily congested to add too much to it.

With the Dart Underground however, the effectiveness of a spur to the airport would greatly increase.

Just by viewing the supposed line on google maps, it doesn't seem like a huge project. As has been said, its mostly greenfield.

It is about 5km of track. It could be done in single track as a train will transverse it in less than 3 minutes when travelling at 90 km/hr. That would make it significantly cheaper to build. Only the M1 to cross apart from minor local roads.

It really is a no-brainer.

BonkeyDonker · 03-07-2014 10:30pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is about 5km of track. It could be done in single track as a train will transverse it in less than 3 minutes when travelling at 90 km/hr. That would make it significantly cheaper to build. Only the M1 to cross apart from minor local roads.

It really is a no-brainer.

Also, it may only be five miles one way, but you would need to at least double (then have to travel both ways) that and allow for stopping, unloading loading etc, so realistically you are looking at ten plus minutes from the current main line out. Also if a single line in and out the driver would need to switch end of the train as well ,adding some time as well.

So while I agree that a single track would be sufficient initially, it would be short sighted not to plan for double tracking (bridges etc), even if it is not initially laid - this would allow for more flexibility in the future if required.

markpb · 03-07-2014 10:34pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is about 5km of track. It could be done in single track as a train will transverse it in less than 3 minutes when travelling at 90 km/hr. That would make it significantly cheaper to build. Only the M1 to cross apart from minor local roads.

It really is a no-brainer.

Building single track on a new build seems like being cheap for no reason. It makes timetabling more difficult, it makes growing the service more challenging, it reduces operational flexibility and, worst of all, it threatens the operation of the existing dart line if there's a train or line failure on the branch. Build it properly or don't build it at all.

Personally I still think it's a nice to have but I haven't seen any good justification for building it. The resulting service will be no better than the existing express bus services which are mostly being provided without any cost to the taxpayer. So after a chunk of capital expenditure and increased operational expenditure, we're not really any better off. Some people will benefit from a slightly shorter transfer but that's about it.

Sam Russell · 03-07-2014 10:55pm

markpb wrote: »

Building single track on a new build seems like being cheap for no reason. It makes timetabling more difficult, it makes growing the service more challenging, it reduces operational flexibility and, worst of all, it threatens the operation of the existing dart line if there's a train or line failure on the branch. Build it properly or don't build it at all.

Personally I still think it's a nice to have but I haven't seen any good justification for building it. The resulting service will be no better than the existing express bus services which are mostly being provided without any cost to the taxpayer. So after a chunk of capital expenditure and increased operational expenditure, we're not really any better off. Some people will benefit from a slightly shorter transfer but that's about it.

You are quite correct. We built a lot of unecessary motorways, but we did build them. The tunnel under the Shannon at Limerick has proved totaly unecessary and cost about the same as the Dart spur, which would be more use. The state is lumbered with compensation to the private partner as not enough traffic uses the tunnel, and that applies to quite a few tolls.

It is not just about the time, it is also about connectivity and image.

BonkeyDonker · 03-07-2014 11:10pm

Stick with me here but would it not be a good idea to make Dublin Airport a transport interchange. You could have the Dart Extension - lets give it a sexy name - say DartX, Metro North and LUAS - lets assume we win the Euro millions at the weekend - and extend the current LUAS at Broombridge as far as Swords, via the airport.

DartX

would be a double line detour of the existing Northern line so that all Dart services North of Connolly would visit the airport, greatly enhancing its usefulness to those from the North of the Country. The Metro North is Metro North, with all the goodness that brings, and the Luas extension from Broombridge would give-much improved access to Finglas/Swords/Rail-lines through Broombridge to the airport. However, it would also give much improved interchanges for non-airport travellers to other services, avoiding the current obsession that everything must go through the city center.

While I'am sure there is some underlying flaw in my idea (I do not pretend to be some mystic planner) I do think it would greatly improve the practical use of public services in the North of the county/country.

1huge1 · 03-07-2014 11:38pm

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

Stick with me here but would it not be a good idea to make Dublin Airport a transport interchange. You could have the Dart Extension - lets give it a sexy name - say DartX, Metro North and LUAS - lets assume we win the Euro millions at the weekend - and extend the current LUAS at Broombridge as far as Swords, via the airport.

DartX would be a double line detour of the existing Northern line so that all Dart services North of Connolly would visit the airport, greatly enhancing its usefulness to those from the North of the Country. The Metro North is Metro North, with all the goodness that brings, and the Luas extension from Broombridge would give-much improved access to Finglas/Swords/Rail-lines through Broombridge to the airport. However, it would also give much improved interchanges for non-airport travellers to other services, avoiding the current obsession that everything must go through the city center.

While I'am sure there is some underlying flaw in my idea (I do not pretend to be some mystic planner) I do think it would greatly improve the practical use of public services in the North of the county/country.

Maybe I misunderstood you but are you saying all DART trips north of Connolly would go through the airport, what about Malahide and Portmarnock commuters who work in the city, I'm sure they wouldn't want their current commute extended to have to go by the airport, or have I misread your post. Sorry if I have.

I like the DartX though :-)

BonkeyDonker · 04-07-2014 12:27am

1huge1 wrote: »

Maybe I misunderstood you but are you saying all DART trips north of Connolly would go through the airport, what about Malahide and Portmarnock commuters who work in the city, I'm sure they wouldn't want their current commute extended to have to go by the airport, or have I misread your post. Sorry if I have.

I like the DartX though :-)

For my idea to work then yes you would need to reroute at least some of the services via the airport. These would be services north of Portmarnock

It would probably add ten minutes to the journey, but the overall benefits should out-weight this. And in my brain I cannot see the advantage of just a Spur to the City Center when extending it to the entire Northern route would benefit alot more people.

The image gives you a (poor) idea of how I see it in my minds eye.

A version running through College Green is also available........

However, from a marketing point of view I would sell it more as allowing passengers from all parts of the country one simple change to the airport.

1huge1 · 04-07-2014 12:38am

I don't see why the Northern route cannot use the spur either without having to divert the entire line to serve the airport.

I just think from a commuting point of view, its just adding extra burden to getting to work in Dublin city centre in the morning. But I'm no expert in the slightest. You could well be right.

BonkeyDonker · 04-07-2014 12:50am

1huge1 wrote: »

I don't see why the Northern route cannot use the spur either without having to divert the entire line to serve the airport.

I debated this in my head, but a one way in/out spur has limitations and reduces overall usefulness. Another consideration is available paths, by doing this way you are using the existing timetable so no need to juggle paths/services to any major extent.

1huge1 wrote: »

I just think from a commuting point of view, its just adding extra burden to getting to work in Dublin city centre in the morning.

Agreed it would add some time to the journey, but if you alternated every second (or third) dart through the airport then you could mitigate this. Also, once the service had been running you could tailor the service to the arrival/departure banks at Dublin airport so as to best allocate the resource.

1huge1 wrote: »

But I'm no expert in the slightest. You could well be right.

As indeed could you - but armchair infrastructure planner can be good fun.

spacetweek · 04-07-2014 10:15am

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

Stick with me here but would it not be a good idea to make Dublin Airport a transport interchange. You could have the Dart Extension - lets give it a sexy name - say DartX, Metro North and LUAS - lets assume we win the Euro millions at the weekend - and extend the current LUAS at Broombridge as far as Swords, via the airport.

DartX would be a double line detour of the existing Northern line so that all Dart services North of Connolly would visit the airport, greatly enhancing its usefulness to those from the North of the Country. The Metro North is Metro North, with all the goodness that brings, and the Luas extension from Broombridge would give-much improved access to Finglas/Swords/Rail-lines through Broombridge to the airport. However, it would also give much improved interchanges for non-airport travellers to other services, avoiding the current obsession that everything must go through the city center.

While I'am sure there is some underlying flaw in my idea (I do not pretend to be some mystic planner) I do think it would greatly improve the practical use of public services in the North of the county/country.

Your idea would be a massive expensive project that could have just used one line anyway and would add 10 mins to every journey to the city centre from 6 DART stations (DART will be extended to Balbriggan). This is the only destination people are going to as they need to visit the airport probably once or twice a year but commuters need rail to or from the centre twice a day (500 times a year). You've diverted them from their primary destination 99.8% of the time.

Secondly, the Luas through Finglas idea compounds the error by creating a second rail line that takes a huge detour to get to the Airport. The mass transit line that connects Airport to Centre is Metro North. We are still going to build this at some stage post-2020. You don't need a wandering tram line going through Finglas and across fields.

Just build Metro North and possibly a one-line DART spur. Nothing else is needed in North Dublin.

TheBandicoot · 04-07-2014 10:20am

spacetweek wrote: »

Just build Metro North and possibly a one-line DART spur. Nothing else is needed in North Dublin.

I don't agree with the plan presented by BonkeyDonker, but I don't entirely agree with this- I think an extension of Luas BXD through Finglas would be useful and give good coverage to North Dublin. I struggle to think of a good end point other than the airport for such a line- perhaps cross the M50 and over to the industrial estates?

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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