DART+ (DART Expansion)

dowlingm

The 2600s are cleared on Howth so they could take over the shuttle if there were no safety issues with retaining the connection so that they could run to Drogheda for service.

Looking at the area between Howth J and Grange Road there doesn't seem to be any protection for 4 tracking - houses right up against the alignment. Sadly Bing runs out at that point so have to rely on the sat rather than the aerial shots.

murphaph

The OSI website has aerial imagery from 2005 for the whole country, if that's any use.

dowlingm

Already had a look but the resolution is about the same.

Cool Mo D

dowlingm wrote: »

Already had a look but the resolution is about the same.

The simplest way might be to electrify the entire Dublin - Belfast line, which would probably be viable, as there are intercity and commuter trains running nearly the whole length of it. Then a single bore, dual track tunnel could be built from Connolly to Grange road, for intercity and express trains. This would not need to be even close to the cost of the interconnector, or metro north, as there would be no stations, and only a single bore. It would be comparable to half the port tunnel. But it would require an electric enterprise, or a much more expensive tunnel, with ventilation for diesel trains would be required - prob not a cost effective option.

Eventually, quad track to Drogheda is what is needed, as the enterprise is would be very badly hampered by Northern commuter trains between Drogheda and Dublin, if they were increased in frequency.

And, on an off-topic point, I seem to remember IE promising express, non-stop morning and evening enterprise services a few years ago - 90 minutes non-stop. Has anyone heard more about this?

Chris_533976

Absolutely awful report on RTE 601 tonight about this, pandering solely to the NIMBYism of the Inchicore residents and saying nothing AT ALL about the benefits of this. The Inchicore residents want another public inquiry.

ilovegermany

murphaph wrote: »

It's already identified for 4 tracking. IE are idiots but they aren't about to build a billion+ euro tunnel and 4 track to within a few hundred yards of it. They know 100% that 4 tracking all the way into the tunnel is what's going to happen.

I'll eat my hat if the Interconnector doesn't open with 2 dedicated DART tracks all the way from Hazelhatch, throught he tunnel to Spencer Dock. After that who knows.

I'm still worried that when we look at those application drawings next year there will still be a mile of 4 track missing past Inchicore - why didnt they just include this when they were extending the tunnel out to Inchicore in the first place?

Re: impact on the Northern Line - I remember being at a public consultation in April 2009 for the Interconnector and when i asked how it would impact on the Enterprise Service to Belfast I was told that it would have "no discernable impact at all due to better signalling".
Give me a break!!!

miss no stars

Aard wrote: »

I have often thought of the viability of the Howth branch. Would it be possible to have a shuttle service from HJ/D to Howth, just going back and forth with no contact with the mainline? Last time I took the Dart there, the train was quite empty.

dowlingm wrote: »

A busway with artic buses would probably do fine, or LUASification at a pinch. Howth Stn catchment is 50% water 40% golf course FFS.

If MetroWest was converted to LUASWest (as it should be) the Howth alignment could be its eastern terminus after a run through Coolock and over/under the Northern Line.

Obviously neither of you have been on the dart to/from Howth at rush hour so!
I'd say that in the mornings the trains are about a third full before they even leave Howth.


Now someone PLEASE tell me why they can't have every second dart going on the usual track and every second dart going on the proposed line? Because as I see it, sitting here in Howth, I won't be able to get to Connolly or Tara without a transfer or backtracking. What about the (literally) hundreds of kids in the morning that get the dart into Connolly and Tara to get to Belvedere and get off at Connolly or Tara? What if, god forbid, I might actually want to go to the north side of the city centre? Why should I have to go to the southside first and trek all the way over or change darts, or go all the way out to the docklands and somehow get in from there? There are much better alternatives that could have been explored. For instance, why not send a tunnel under Connolly? OR!!! Why not (wait for it!!!!!) Stop having trains (commuter mostly) sitting around in Connolly in excess of 60 seconds?

murphaph

miss no stars wrote: »

Obviously neither of you have been on the dart to/from Howth at rush hour so!
I'd say that in the mornings the trains are about a third full before they even leave Howth.


Now someone PLEASE tell me why they can't have every second dart going on the usual track and every second dart going on the proposed line? Because as I see it, sitting here in Howth, I won't be able to get to Connolly or Tara without a transfer or backtracking. What about the (literally) hundreds of kids in the morning that get the dart into Connolly and Tara to get to Belvedere and get off at Connolly or Tara? What if, god forbid, I might actually want to go to the north side of the city centre? Why should I have to go to the southside first and trek all the way over or change darts, or go all the way out to the docklands and somehow get in from there? There are much better alternatives that could have been explored. For instance, why not send a tunnel under Connolly? OR!!! Why not (wait for it!!!!!) Stop having trains (commuter mostly) sitting around in Connolly in excess of 60 seconds?

Many more folks will benefit from the Interconnector than the tiny minority it will inconvenience. Backtracking to Tara (one stop FFS, talk about exaggerating) or Connoly is what happens in any developed network every day right across Europe. Most people coming in from the Northside will be delighted to be dropped directly at St. Stephen's Green tbh, with direct onward connection to Sandyford etc. I will be surprised if your average commute is longer with the Interconnector as it will eliminate conflicts (and thus delays) from the network on a massive scale.

My bold btw. Think bigger picture, for the greater good and can the me me me approach to Infrastructural and service planning. It's this sort of tripe that has paralysed Ireland for decades as it is. Networks only function because people have to wait for it, change train/bus/tram etc.

Aard

@Miss no stars:

Your proposal is a case of the needs of the few outweighing the needs of the many. Do you think that's fair?

D.L.R.

On that note, I've always thought a station at Ossory Jn would be useful. Seems a waste of a major junction not to have a station there.

L1011

D.L.R. wrote: »

On that note, I've always thought a station at Ossory Jn would be useful. Seems a waste of a major junction not to have a station there.

Where is that? I'm trying to think of junctions in Dublin and the only one I can think of with any proper traffic at it is Glasnevin... other than Howth and Connolly itself!

Aard

Ossory Jctn is, afaik, the flyover junction immediately north of Connolly.


I'd think it's too close to Connolly. Perhaps further out - on the Ballybough Road?

D.L.R.

Yeah thats it. About the same distance from Connolly to Tara St, and further than Tara-Pearse. Given that the two dart lines will come within 100m of each other at this point, its got merit. Ballybough also has merit, but it misses the interchange value.

Aard

If it's purely for interchange-purposes, then Pearse isn't too far away. Would building a new station on the junction be worth it?

murphaph

Aard wrote: »

If it's purely for interchange-purposes, then Pearse isn't too far away. Would building a new station on the junction be worth it?

Eventually I'd say it would be. The Interconnector is going to force the hand of a lot more investment in the rail network (if it ever gets built) than anything we've seen before. Once the public sees the bones of a network they'll start demanding more. A northern interchange between the two DART lines at Ossory Road was on the original PFC plans IIRC, and would make eminent sense down the road. The new DART network will radically change how people view mass transit in Dublin and will ultimately lead to people making commutes they'd never dream about today.

spacetweek

murphaph wrote: »

Eventually I'd say it would be. The Interconnector is going to force the hand of a lot more investment in the rail network (if it ever gets built) than anything we've seen before. Once the public sees the bones of a network they'll start demanding more. A northern interchange between the two DART lines at Ossory Road was on the original PFC plans IIRC, and would make eminent sense down the road. The new DART network will radically change how people view mass transit in Dublin and will ultimately lead to people making commutes they'd never dream about today.

This is correct; it was called East Wall I believe.

I agree it might be a good idea, but in the long term only. Don't want to unnecessarily waste people's time adding stations that mightn't be needed.

When the new infrastructures are in place, we can see how the network beds down and whether there is a need for a second DART crossover.

Empire o de Sun

I think that more train stations would be viable on the Maynooth line closer to the city centre once the Dart is separated into Dart 1 and Dart 2, and the Metro is built.

A station for East Wall / North Strand would be deadly.

And also could the Luas be extended to East point and then to Clontarf maybe?

Dublin Metro.png

L1011

Outside of the city the Maynooth line runs through open countryside most of the way (due to fantastic planning), a Lucan North station would make sense if they'd push the future building of the town that way though.

dowlingm

How much scope is there for adding passing tracks on the Maynooth line to allow expresses to pass stoppers at these extra stations?

L1011

dowlingm wrote: »

How much scope is there for adding passing tracks on the Maynooth line to allow expresses to pass stoppers at these extra stations?

Limited. In the city its elevated for part, and built up to when not elevated.

Out of the city it has the canal along one side for most of the way, and roads the other side at times. However, cause its just Sligo trains that are express on the line since the 1980s when Galway trains were re-routed to Heuston its not as pressing an issue as on Kildare or the Northern line.

You could add a decent enough passing loop between Leixlip and Maynooth I'd expect but this is so close to one end of the shared zone you may as well pass in a station...

Cool Mo D

MYOB wrote: »

Limited. In the city its elevated for part, and built up to when not elevated.

Out of the city it has the canal along one side for most of the way, and roads the other side at times. However, cause its just Sligo trains that are express on the line since the 1980s when Galway trains were re-routed to Heuston its not as pressing an issue as on Kildare or the Northern line.

You could add a decent enough passing loop between Leixlip and Maynooth I'd expect but this is so close to one end of the shared zone you may as well pass in a station...

However, fast trains could travel along the canal, rather than through Drumcondra, which would free up capacity between Glasnevin and the city centre.
The disadvantage is that they would have to terminate at Docklands station, rather than Connolly, as that particular line would have to cross the Dart and Maynooth line to get into Connolly's terminus platforms, causing lots of disruption.

Although, looking at the Goole map, it looks like there's room to construct a new approach from that line to Connolly that would not have to cross the DART. This might have been a better idea then building Docklands station...

murphaph

Cool Mo D wrote: »

However, fast trains could travel along the canal, rather than through Drumcondra, which would free up capacity between Glasnevin and the city centre.
The disadvantage is that they would have to terminate at Docklands station, rather than Connolly, as that particular line would have to cross the Dart and Maynooth line to get into Connolly's terminus platforms, causing lots of disruption.

Although, looking at the Goole map, it looks like there's room to construct a new approach from that line to Connolly that would not have to cross the DART. This might have been a better idea then building Docklands station...

I don't see the problem with terminating Intercity services in Docklands (if it still exists) or simply building 2 platforms where the Midland Line (the one beside the canal) crosses under the tracks that head north out of connolly and a lift/escalator and walkway up to the other Connolly platforms (ca. 400m walk). That would be a shorter interchange than some interchanges in Berlin and London, so no problem really.

I would definitely strive to remove IC services from as much of the DART line as possible. A passing loop could easily be constructed between the old Lucan North station and Clonsilla too, or even a bit further east as there's still no development on the south side of the line (the canal is to the north of the railway here), just fields. It's almost Coolmine before the development is encroaching so far that a passing loop couldn't be added.

spacetweek

MYOB wrote: »

a Lucan North station would make sense if they'd push the future building of the town that way though.

I grew up in Lucan, this wouldn't be a good idea. Lots of new bridges would be needed and the land all along the Liffey is parks or privately owned. The Lucan Bypass with its continuous buslanes and future DART to the south should be enough, if they only get moving on better bus services and expediting the DART.

Hungerford

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Although, looking at the Goole map, it looks like there's room to construct a new approach from that line to Connolly that would not have to cross the DART. This might have been a better idea then building Docklands station...

If you are referring to what I think you are, that's the site of the existing Newcommen Junction, which is extremely steep and has to have a special mechanical bridge to allow navigation on the canal.

Victor

Hungerford wrote: »

If you are referring to what I think you are, that's the site of the existing Newcommen Junction, which is extremely steep and has to have a special mechanical bridge to allow navigation on the canal.

Not a problem for trains going downhill.

murphaph

Victor wrote: »

Not a problem for trains going downhill.

Maybe that was tongue in cheek, as I'm sure you're aware it would be no use if it only allowed trains to go one way.

In seriousness however, I think the lighter weight of an EMU
as compared to a DMU should easily enable it to climb that curve, so could the DART line not be routed along the Midland line (shorter route) and climb up the Newcommen curve into P6/7 and let intercity and outer suburban services to go via Drumcondra and terminate in Connolly shed?

I have to say, EMUs in Berlin seem to be able to cope with extremely severe gradients, like Newcommen Curve, everyday with ease. The canal navigation can be sorted with a lock that drops boats under the railway if needed, although navigation along the canal here hardly requires more that this bridge affair at is so rarely lifted.

Victor

If the Midland line is used for westbound traffic (with an extra platform at Drumcondra and where ever else) and the upper line for eastbound traffic it cuts out a certain amount of messing.

The canal is rarely used and given it is tidal at that point, putting a lock under it would be interesting .

csd

Victor wrote: »

The canal is rarely used and given it is tidal at that point, putting a lock under it would be interesting .

A tidal canal??

The attached picture shows the area under discussion. I happened to come across a bridge lift in progress in May 2003 and had my camera on me.

/csd

Road-Hog

According to the link below, CIE will be seeking tenders later this year for a DBO/PPP type contract to design and build about 16km of underground dart line, its anyones guess as to when it might start though, could be 2015 or later before we see any tunnel boring machines in operation

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=FEB140989

murphaph

Victor wrote: »

If the Midland line is used for westbound traffic (with an extra platform at Drumcondra and where ever else) and the upper line for eastbound traffic it cuts out a certain amount of messing.

The canal is rarely used and given it is tidal at that point, putting a lock under it would be interesting .

I think the idea of running on separate lines is a bit messy tbh (for example I hate the proposal to extend the Luas along 2 parallel streets (O'Connell and Marlborough) but could probably work somehow.

I think the canal is only tidal because Spencer Dock lock is busted and left permanently open, but the plan is to repair that lock.