DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Well, initially, and this can, if necessary, be backed up by all the newspaper reports at the time and over the years, they were planning to build the DART Underground through St. Stephen's Green because it enabled the IE project to connect with the LUAS.

They couldn't plan it through College Green, or any other city centre location, because the LUAS simply wasn't there. So, Jack, that's pretty much why they routed it through St. Stephen's Green. Over the years, I haven't seen a single press release or departmental statement that there was any other reason for DART Underground being built through St. Stephen's Green than that it would enable it to connect with the LUAS and metro.

And I would challenge you to present any newspaper report, or Department of Transport press release, from the time, which suggested otherwise.

Of course, the LUAS will soon be in College Green

I haven't spoken to the NTA, or to IE, about their plans for Dublin. I wrote to the Department of Transport about this very issue (College Green versus St. Stephen's Green) when I lived in Dublin, way back when. I don't believe it would be appropriate for me to do this, now, when I'm outside the country (probably for the long term) and don't have to live by the decisions they make. I post on the world wide web because I hope I can influence some Dubliners to see the potential of the city the way that I do.

Practically none of the stuff which we have discussed on this amazing thread, valuable maps of commuter density in Dublin, and important contributions from posters about what they have learnt from other cities in the world, will be absorbed by the planners in Dublin. Pity.

This is why frankly I can't take this seriously any more.

You've frankly hijacked a thread with this notion, gone on and on about it, getting virtually no one to agree with you, constantly asking why was a particular route chosen, yet when push comes to shove you come up with the flimsiest excuse imaginable not to contact the company directly.

I would suggest your efforts at persuasion are too late, too little and frankly pointless.

strassenwo!f

Jack Noble wrote: »

So, essentially, you have no evidence, data or costings figures to back up your assertion that CG is a 'better' location than SSG.

And you've never once asked the people who selected SSG as a major interchange -- NTA, IE and RPA -- why they did so and how they came to this conclusion. That's despite this being known for the last 13 years.

If you are so convinced CG is more appropriate than SSG then why have you not asked these surely important questions of the relevant bodies?

Jack, you haven't produced any evidence that St. Stephen's Green would suit more people than a station at College Green. And that's really what public transport is about, trying to suit as many people as possible.

All we know, so far, from all of the documentation produced by the DOT, The DTO, The NTA, IE, The RPA, all of them, is that St. Stephen's Green enables the DART Underground to connect with the LUAS.

Well, College Green will shortly be able to do that too.

salmocab

just to stick my uneducated oar in I read a few pages of this thread its interesting enough but a lot of petty sniping, regards the stop SSG v CG debate without any real technical understanding of mass transit requirements etc it seems to me that having the stop at SSG means that 3 different lines meet as opposed to 2 at CG. People wanting to get the dart underground coming into the city on the green line would need to get off and onto the cross city line then get off a couple of stops later to get on the Dart u/g this does seem like a bad set up.

LXFlyer

salmocab wrote: »

just to stick my uneducated oar in I read a few pages of this thread its interesting enough but a lot of petty sniping, regards the stop SSG v CG debate without any real technical understanding of mass transit requirements etc it seems to me that having the stop at SSG means that 3 different lines meet as opposed to 2 at CG. People wanting to get the dart underground coming into the city on the green line would need to get off and onto the cross city line then get off a couple of stops later to get on the Dart u/g this does seem like a bad set up.

The Green Line and the BXD Line are one and the same - effectively this is an extension of the Green Line. No change required.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Jack, you haven't produced any evidence that St. Stephen's Green would suit more people than a station at College Green. And that's really what public transport is about, trying to suit as many people as possible.

All we know, so far, from all of the documentation produced by the DOT, The DTO, The NTA, IE, The RPA, all of them, is that St. Stephen's Green enables the DART Underground to connect with the LUAS.

Well, College Green will shortly be able to do that too.

THE NTA, IE and RPA have the data - ask them about it. So too do Dublin Bus and Dublin City Council -- ask them too.

But you yourself posted the CSO maps on employment densities in the city centre -- it clearly shows in employment terms alone why SSG is a much more appropriate location than College Green.

And if you think SSG was chosen simply because the Luas is there, you haven't the first clue what you are talking about.

SSG was chosen because it was the ideal location to serve residents, commuters, shoppers and tourists in the area bounded by the Liffey to the north, Grand Canal to the south, Merrion Square/Fitzwilliam Square to the east and Patrick St/Christchurch to the west -- the busiest employment, shopping, leisure/entertainment and tourist area on the island of Ireland.

You also tell us you don't live in Dublin. Well I do, and I'm just back from SSG this morning. And I must have imagined all those people heading in all four directions from Fusiliers Arch when they got off the Luas and the buses.

I'm in Dublin city centre every morning of the week and I can tell you with the evidence of my own eyes, the area around SSG is much busier than College Green in terms of people movements at peak times and through most of the day.

You are also ignoring the fact that, TOGETHER Dart Underground, Metro North and Luas will serve the Docklands-Pearse-SSG-Heuston and Parnell-OCS-CG-SSG axes, with the GPO and CG served by a Metro stop less than 250 metres from each and Luas stops. That's clearly shown in the second CSO map you posted.

But all that aside, you are still ignoring the most obvious point of all: that tunneling under and digging a bloody great hole on College Green simply wouldn't get approval and permission -- from the planners, politicians or the public. Or the courts.

Why do you ignore that reality?

salmocab

lxflyer wrote: »

The Green Line and the BXD Line are one and the same - effectively this is an extension of the Green Line. No change required.

Sorry I was under the impression it was going to run as a separate line. Just looked at the map that would mean the CG stop would be awkward to make it a direct link with luas? either up to dolier st and westmoreland under the westin hotel or to dawson street stop which is a bit away. Im not being argumentative its just difficult to see the points here as there is so much argument that it makes it very difficult to find if this has been answered already.

Jack Noble

salmocab wrote: »

Sorry I was under the impression it was going to run as a separate line. Just looked at the map that would mean the CG stop would be awkward to make it a direct link with luas? either up to dolier st and westmoreland under the westin hotel or to dawson street stop which is a bit away. Im not being argumentative its just difficult to see the points here as there is so much argument that it makes it very difficult to find if this has been answered already.

A College Green Dart-Metro stop is never going to happen -- ever. It's Strassenwolf's fantasy which no one else shares -- especially the NTA, IE, RPA and DCC.

Frankly, I have more chance of a caviar and cocaine-fueled threesome with Kate and Pippa in a jacuzzi filled with Dom Perignon in the Royal Suite of the Burj Al Arab Hotel in Dubai -- than there is of a Dart-Metro interchange at College Green.

Now, I'm off to buy my Euromillions ticket for tonight because there's more chance of me winning that jackpot than there is of either of the above fantasies coming true.

L1011

strassenwo!f wrote: »

We're broadly talking about 200 million euro per kilometre for tunnelling through a European city.

I thought it was around a kilometre. Which should equate to savings of around 200 million euro on tunnelling costs.

I was wrong.

It is clear from Telchak's nice map above, that it's actually only around 500m shorter. So savings of only 100 million euro or so on tunnelling costs.

You were claiming 200m a km earlier - which is pulled out of the air but lets run with it.

You claimed that College Green would save about 100m in total after its other costs - also pulled out of the air, but lets run with that too.

The actual route shown is about 1/3rd of a kilometre shorter, not 500 metres. So 66m tunnelling savings off your costings.

Meaning you're now 34m in the red - not saving anything.

Care to reconsider your pricing? Cause even if we fudge and spoof the difference to 500 metres as you tried there; its a zero sum game.

strassenwo!f

Jack Noble wrote: »

THE NTA, IE and RPA have the data - ask them about it. So too do Dublin Bus and Dublin City Council -- ask them too.

I've explained why I think this would be inappropriate.

Jack Noble wrote: »

But you yourself posted the CSO maps on employment densities in the city centre -- it clearly shows in employment terms alone why SSG is a much more appropriate location than College Green.

No Jack, that CSO map quite clearly showed that the largest area of high density employment, in Dublin, was directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green. The largest other bit of high-density employment in the city was broadly around 1 kilometre away from the proposed St. Stephen's Green interchange. The people working there are going to be changing, as a LUAS and metro network is developed.

Jack Noble wrote: »

And if you think SSG was chosen simply because the Luas is there, you haven't the first clue what you are talking about.

SSG was chosen because it was the ideal location to serve residents, commuters, shoppers and tourists in the area bounded by the Liffey to the north, Grand Canal to the south, Merrion Square/Fitzwilliam Square to the east and Patrick St/Christchurch to the west -- the busiest employment, shopping, leisure and tourist area on the island of Ireland.

Residents? Around St. Stephen's Green?

Surely that's a very minor issue, Jack, compared to the number of residents of suburbs of Dublin trying to get rapidly into and out of the city.

It has been explained above why St. Stephen's Green is not a better option for commuters than College Green. Those who work in the largest area of high density employment in Dublin are directly served by a route which goes to either. Those who work in the second largest area of high density employment will be changing onto the LUAS or metro, in either case.

Shoppers: well there are options for them either side of College Green, but that is not so for St. Stephen's Green. Tourists: not a lot for them either, south of St. Stephen's Green, but plenty either side of College Green.

Jack Noble wrote: »

But all that aside, you are still ignoring the most obvious point of all: that tunneling under and digging a bloody great hole on College Green simply wouldn't get approval and permission -- from the planners, politicians or the public. Or the courts.

Why do you ignore that reality?

I'm not ignoring any reality. Digging up a large chunk of St. Stephen's Green, and leaving it scarred for decades, is not going to be an easy thing, and I'm certain that that will end up in the courts. All that fighting in the courts for no obvious advantage in terms of movement of people.

Digging up College Green, which would also end up in the courts, no doubt about it, would at least leave Dublin with a very central interchange which can be returned to its former glory after construction.

Though, as I said above, this would seem like a glorious opportunity to pedestrianise College Green. Munich's Marienplatz, for example, is a pedestrianised square, right in the middle of that city. Yet it still has a very serious public transport function, with around 200 or so stations in the suburbs served from there.

It's going to end up in the courts either way. I believe the best way to get it through is to concentrate on the area which can be enhanced by construction of the interchange, not the area which will be damaged for decades by it.

L1011

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I've explaned why I think this would be inappropriate..

How is less appropriate than banging on about it to the wrong people?

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'm not ignoring any reality. Digging up a large chunk of St. Stephen's Green, and leaving it scarred for decades, is not going to be an easy thing, and I'm certain that that will end up in the courts. All that fighting in the courts for no obvious advantage in terms of movement of people.

It has planning permission, which has been validly judicially reviewed. It won't.



Lovely use of emotive language when all other forms of argument have failed there - "scarred" for one site after reconstruction, "glory" for the other - obvious which you're pushing just from those two words.

murphaph

Indeed. Use of emotive language like "scarred" weakens any argument you make SW. The strip of the Green will recover as would College Green after construction.

You just think CG would be better. That's ok. I think it would be better too if Metro North was not also in planning but MN will serve that whole axis very well and you can still pedestrianise CG after you've delivered some quality public transport to replace all those buses that need to pass through CG.

alias no.9

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Though, as I said above, this would seem like a glorious opportunity to pedestrianise College Green. Munich's Marienplatz, for example, is a pedestrianised square, right in the middle of that city. Yet it still has a very serious public transport function, with around 200 or so stations in the suburbs served from there.

I would absolutely love to see College Green turned into a pedestrian plaza, I just have no idea why you would need to locate an underground rail interchange there in order to do that.

strassenwo!f

alias no.9 wrote: »

I would absolutely love to see College Green turned into a pedestrian plaza, I just have no idea why you would need to locate an underground rail interchange there in order to do that.

You don't need to locate an underground interchange there, but it might be a good opportunity for Dublin to kill two birds with one stone.

In terms of cost, and in terms of passenger demand, nowhere else, specifically not St. Stephen's Green, has been shown to be any better.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I've explained why I think this would be inappropriate.

You live outside the country and thus think it 'inappropriate' to ask the NTA, IE and RPA how and why they decided on SSG as a Metro-Dart-Luas interchange over College Green -- but at the same time you believe it's 'appropriate' to tell the same organisations to dump their existing plans and data and locate the planned Dart-Metro-Luas interchange on College Green because you, who lives outside the country and can't see yourself returning any time soon, believe it's a much better location, despite having no hard evidence to back up this assertion.

Do you see the fundamental contradiction between those two positions? Or how much it wrecks any credibility you and your argument may have?

It smacks to me of you not wanting to ask the questions because in your heart you know the answers will not be what you want to hear and that would destroy your little fantasy -- and you really can't face that, can you?

No Jack, that CSO map quite clearly showed that the largest area of high density employment, in Dublin, was directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green. The largest other bit of high-density employment in the city was broadly around 1 kilometre away from the proposed St. Stephen's Green interchange. The people working there are going to be changing, as a LUAS and metro network is developed.

It is not simply about the small areas around Grafton Street and Trinity but the wider area stretching out in a 1km radius from the Grafton St-SSG junction. That's why, on those grounds, SSG has been chosen and not CG.

Look at this map with the catchment areas within 250m, 500m, 750m and 1km from Fusiliers Arch on at SSG-GS -- that's within 2-3, 5-6, 8-9 and 10-12 minutes walk respectively. This is why SSG is the most appropriate point for the Dart-Metro-Luas interchange because it serves the widest catchment area in terms of employment, retail, entertainment, leisure and tourism.

Residents? Around St. Stephen's Green?

Yes. There are significant residential developments, private and local authority, in the area west of SSG to Patrick St, between Camden St and Heytesbury Street, in Portobello, between Adelaide Road and the Grand Canal, around Trinity and between Merrion Sq and the Liffey -- all within 1km of SSG station and in many cases much, much closer.

Surely that's a very minor issue, Jack, compared to the number of residents of suburbs of Dublin trying to get rapidly into and out of the city.

Tell that to the people who live there and wish to go elsewhere within the city and beyond for work or other reasons.

It has been explained above why St. Stephen's Green is not a better option for commuters than College Green.

No, it has been explained by YOU why YOU believe it is 'better' -- not why it IS 'better'. Something, may I point out again, for which you have absolutely no evidence.

Those who work in the largest area of high density employment in Dublin are directly served by a route which goes to either.

Many times more people are served by SSG than by CG.

Those who work in the second largest area of high density employment will be changing onto the LUAS or metro, in either case.

Which is precisely what those who want to go to CG can do when they get off the Dart at CG.

Shoppers: well there are options for them either side of College Green, but that is not so for St. Stephen's Green. Tourists: not a lot for them either, south of St. Stephen's Green, but plenty either side of College Green.

Again, SSG covers more options than CG - and then there's Luas, Dublin Bikes and Shank's Mare (and someday Metro) for those who want to head for CG and OCS.

I'm not ignoring any reality. Digging up a large chunk of St. Stephen's Green, and leaving it scarred for decades, is not going to be an easy thing, and I'm certain that that will end up in the courts. All that fighting in the courts for no obvious advantage in terms of movement of people.

Yes your are ignoring reality. These realities:

That any Dart line under CG with a major interchange station on CG would make it past objections at the public consultation stage;

If it did, that the Minister for Transport and Cabinet would approve such a line to go to detailed planning and Railway Order stage.

But, if that did happen, that Bord Pleanala would approve such a scheme given the level of objections from the public, statutory bodies and those directly affected by construction of such a scheme, especially Trinity, Bank of Ireland, An Taisce and DCC, to name four. And that's before ABP considers the potential disruption to city centre due to four to six years of construction -- and all the objections that will be mounted to that.

But let's go a little further, say it makes it past those three stages, the Government will then have to approve it. No cabinet, especially one containing Dublin TDs is going to approve and fund a scheme that has such massive opposition to it -- and hope to keep their seats.

But, let's say at this stage, we've a cabinet full of culchies who approve the scheme, then we are heading for massive public protests a la Corrib and Shell to Sea, and multiple court challenges -- with Trinity at the front of the queue on the steps of the Four Courts presenting a very strong argument, backed up by its own engineers, that construction if such a line under the TCD campus would cause substantial risk to the historic, protected, buildings of the university. And this will go on for years as any High Court judgements will then be appealed to the Supreme Court for final adjudication.

Such matters and delays are likely to span a change of government which, seeing how unpopular such a plan is and the hassle it caused the previous lot, will kill it stone dead at its first cabinet meeting. And then it's back to the drawing board after four, five, six, wasted years.

Do you really think the NTA, IE, RPA and DOT -- never mind the Cabinet -- are going to go down that route when they have a much more suitable alignment and interchange location at SSG, without all the above hassle?

You are ignoring the realities -- the planning, practical, political and legal realities which such a CG Dart line and station would face. And that's just another reason why the NTA, IE and RPA have not gone down that route.

Digging up College Green, which would also end up in the courts, no doubt about it, would at least leave Dublin with a very central interchange which can be returned to its former glory after construction.

Digging up CG would be a nightmare -- see above.

Construction of SSG, on the other hand, causes very little disruption and destruction of the Green. The footprint of the construction site will essentially be the wide section of road between the top of Grafton Street and Kildare Street. Only a few metres of the park itself will be included, some two dozen mature trees will be uprooted, but the areas will be restored and replanted when construction finishes. There will be little or no 'scarring'.

Though, as I said above, this would seem like a glorious opportunity to pedestrianise College Green. Munich's Marienplatz, for example, is a pedestrianised square, right in the middle of that city. Yet it still has a very serious public transport function, with around 200 or so stations in the suburbs served from there.

College Green can still be pedestrianised - and I believe it will be some day. But after a bloody battle between Dublin City Council and Dublin Bus.

It's going to end up in the courts either way. I believe the best way to get it through is to concentrate on the area which can be enhanced by construction of the interchange, not the area which will be damaged for decades by it.

The difference is the current Dart Undergound scheme has already survived a court challenge.

strassenwo!f

I'll get back to you Jack, but I need to get a couple of hours sleep before the game.

L1011

Why are you now putting that diagram in virtually every post?

BonkeyDonker

MYOB wrote: »

Why are you now putting that diagram in virtually every post?

Psychological warfare - if we see it often enough then we will start to subconsciously absorb it and it will become the norm and accept it.

ps. strassenwo!f - If you want I know somewhere that you can print and laminate it.

murphaph

This has turned into a wind up.

BonkeyDonker

murphaph wrote: »

This has turned into a wind up.

having decided to re-read alot of this thread I'm starting to believe that it may have been that for a very long time.

Telchak

MYOB wrote: »

Why are you now putting that diagram in virtually every post?

Fixed it for him (may need to refresh your browser)

NuMarvel

Telchak wrote: »

Fixed it for him (may need to refresh your browser)

Why won't Boards let me thank a post more than once??

noelfirl

This thread is beyond a joke. With DART underground (via Stephen's Green) potentially coming back on stream in the next round of capital funding, I glance at this thread now and then expecting to see some new clipping or political squeak that might signal progression.

Instead, every time, without fail, it's Don Quixote tilting at a windmill. Even after a thread has been specifically set up for that purpose.

cgcsb

Agreed this is getting to be a joke thread. A thread has been set up to accommodate the said poster, yet we are still subjected to the endless abyss.

strassenwo!f

Telchak, I'd be surprised if there's any doubt that an East-West oriented station at Pearse Station is doable. You might need to write something else there on your depiction of that line.

And, maybe, alongside your depiction of "the route which makes no sense", you could do some kind of overlay of the route which has been given approval (ie the sensible route).

Maybe in some shade of green. So as not to conflict with the other stuff there.

mackerski

Telchak wrote: »

Fixed it for him (may need to refresh your browser)

Dougal, have you been studying the diagram like I told you?

alias no.9

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Telchak, I'd be surprised if there's any doubt that an East-West oriented station at Pearse Station is doable. You might need to write something else there on your depiction of that line.

And, maybe, alongside your depiction of "the route which makes no sense", you could do some kind of overlay of the route which has been given approval (ie the sensible route).

Maybe in some shade of green. So as not to conflict with the other stuff there.

Fantastic Map* of existing and proposed rail, tram, metro and brt lines in Dublin, shamelessly borrowed from here

*doesn't work on phones

Zebra3

alias no.9 wrote: »

Fantastic Map* of existing and proposed rail, tram, metro and brt lines in Dublin, shamelessly borrowed from here

*doesn't work on phones

Needs to add in the Pace branch off the Maynooth line.

Jack Noble

So, Pascal Donohoe replaces Leo Varadkar as Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport.

He's a Dublin Central TD which means every major transport project on the current agenda -- Dart Underground, Metro North and BRT -- will have a major impact on and benefits for his constituency and constituents.

How will that influence his thinking when it comes to examining which projects to approve for 2016-2020 capital spending plan? Each one carries a big price tag -- in every sense.

For example, Dart Underground is a major hot potato in East Wall area due to residents' objections over construction traffic and the lack of a station serving them?

Or what does he do about the BRT plan on the City Centre-Swords route when it's clear it can't meet expected demand and, according to the NTA, Metro North is still needed?

That's assuming he survives the first bomb that has landed on his lap today -- those Garth Brooks gigs at Croker. Another little local difficulty for him.

Sometimes getting a seat at Cabinet table means having to sup from a poisoned chalice.

Good luck, Minister Donohoe -- you're going to need it.

D.L.R.

Jack Noble wrote: »

So, Pascal Donohoe replaces Leo Varadkar as Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport.

No wonder transport in this country is so crap, it only has 1/3 of a minister.

Transport... and sport? WTF??

1huge1

Jack Noble wrote: »

So, Pascal Donohoe replaces Leo Varadkar as Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport.

He's a Dublin Central TD which means every major transport project on the current agenda -- Dart Underground, Metro North and BRT -- will have a major impact on and benefits for his constituency and constituents.

How will that influence his thinking when it comes to examining which projects to approve for 2016-2020 capital spending plan? Each one carries a big price tag -- in every sense.

For example, Dart Underground is a major hot potato in East Wall area due to residents' objections over construction traffic and the lack of a station serving them?

Or what does he do about the BRT plan on the City Centre-Swords route when it's clear it can't meet expected demand and, according to the NTA, Metro North is still needed?

That's assuming he survives the first bomb that has landed on his lap today -- those Garth Brooks gigs at Croker. Another little local difficulty for him.

Sometimes getting a seat at Cabinet table means having to sup from a poisoned chalice.

Good luck, Minister Donohoe -- you're going to need it.

How does everyone think Varadkar did overall? Not an easy job in the current environment.