DART+ (DART Expansion)

poteen o hooley

Constructive posts only hmmmmmm

Why doncha phone the or pee eh Vic and help poor ol strassenfox out with the secret of Fatima mansions as 2 y they insist on sending wonder of d worild DU on a magikle mystory tewer to d waistlands of SSG when any eejit can see it needs to go true CG. He suffers from the rare phonyophobia and cant manidge hisself.

cgcsb

2bn spending spree to be announced tomorrow apparently, hopefully there's some starting funds for DU

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/coalition-to-splash-2bn-in-budget-to-buy-election-30656879.html

Aard

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SeanW

cgcsb wrote: »

2bn spending spree to be announced tomorrow apparently, hopefully there's some starting funds for DU

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/coalition-to-splash-2bn-in-budget-to-buy-election-30656879.html

Most of that is going to be new current spending >_< seriously. We're still borrowing heaps of money to finance day-to-day spending and the gov't will add another 1.8bn/year to the deficit ...

Schadenfreudia

cgcsb wrote: »

2bn spending spree to be announced tomorrow apparently, hopefully there's some starting funds for DU

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/coalition-to-splash-2bn-in-budget-to-buy-election-30656879.html

Only €200 million extra in capital expenditure...the planned house building will soak all that up and more.

I fear transport infrastructure improvement is still in deep freeze.

VeryOwl

I think that was almost the template of how you write a terrible article.

That said, would fully expect to see little imagination or long-term planning in the budget.

Sam Russell

VeryOwl wrote: »

I think that was almost the template of how you write a terrible article.

That said, would fully expect to see little imagination or long-term planning in the budget.

You were right. Long term planning is only as far as the next election.

Idbatterim

IF FG want this to go ahead, best thing to do is get the election out of the way, then build it once they have secured another term and dont need to worry about buying the election again for a few years... Can you imagine all of the "we have dems billionz for da Dublin folk joe" wheres my metro for ballygobackwards etc? :rolleyes:

poteen o hooley

There's more chance of Elvis Presley crashing a UFO into the Loch Ness Monster than of FG being in Gov. after the next election.

1huge1

poteen o hooley wrote: »

There's more chance of Elvis Presley crashing a UFO into the Loch Ness Monster than of FG being in Gov. after the next election.

well considering they are the most popular party in the country, you might just be wrong about that.

cgcsb

I dunno, there is no credible opposition party, and people aren't going to be turning to indos because a coalition of indos isnt realistic.

Cinephille1888

A coalition of Indos is what a democracy is supposed to be.

God for bid they compromise and negotiate through vigorous and debate in order to efficiently run the state...

Unlike dictats and guillotined legislation to square things for foreign masters and your lackies...


All future possible govts have to weigh up the transport options for Irelands Towns And Cit(y)ies.

Dart Underground is seen on the EU level as vital to regional investment, but it is unknown if it'll ever get the funding from those funds.


If it became an Electrification cross border service, with integrated cross border power, then maybe it would be really supported by Europe.

Belfast to Cork Via Heuston in 4 hours 30 anyone?

I also feel that to "counter" the uproar that Dublin would get the Underground and eventually BRT and Metro North, that Regional Cities should get enhanced Bus routes or even BRT corridors.

I remember seeing a regional map of Cork and it's old railways and how they could be turned into commuter railways, before the worst of the boom. Imagine partially using those alignments for BRT and preserving for eventual Light Rail? Pre-Tramming routes?

Same deal for the "G-Luas"....

The best economic benefit to be gained from Dart Underground is if the areas more widely reached are also capable of growing with good transport.

poteen o hooley

1huge1 wrote: »

well considering they are the most popular party in the country, you might just be wrong about that.

You're away with the fairies.

(1) FF will not go into gov with them. If you don't know why no point me wasting time debating it.
(2) Lab will be wiped out
(3) SF and FG ha ha
(4) SF, FF and leftish independents will be the largest group by far.

Finny Gale might have a slight edge in the current polls but things will get worse for them by polling.

Idbatterim

You're away with the fairies.

(1) FF will not go into gov with them. If you don't know why no point me wasting time debating it.
(2) Lab will be wiped out
(3) SF and FG ha ha
(4) SF, FF and leftish independents will be the largest group by far.

Finny Gale might have a slight edge in the current polls but things will get worse for them by polling.

they will be on best behaviour mode coming up to the elections, have a semi giveaway budget next year and probably have unemployment below 9% come the next election. The Irish water furore will no doubt be well over at that stage too...

Oasis_Dublin

You know the way luas is a reliable (green line, red line as far as Museum) service, yeah? And it made its money in a much shorter space of time than anyone envisaged, yeah? Why is the government opposed to such a crucial rail link up in the capital city?

Is it just because they work in five year blocks, and couldn't care less about the long term?

Idbatterim

You know the way luas is a reliable (green line, red line as far as Museum) service, yeah? And it made its money in a much shorter space of time than anyone envisaged, yeah? Why is the government opposed to such a crucial rail link up in the capital city?

Is it just because they work in five year blocks, and couldn't care less about the long term?

they were close to starting and then the economy tanked, a REAL pity that they hadnt started. Ultimately I would blame the politicians more than voters, like I said, the should do what it takes to get reelected and once in, the can do contentious stuff (to some) in the early years. They generally only do something here, when the situation is so bad, that it cant be ignored... By the time MN gets built for example, the airport will probably have close to if not more than 30,000,000 using it! It will be 22,000,000 this year, a mere 6 miles out of town and it doesnt have its own rail link, now I appreciate the airports numbers exploded during the boom and why it was derailed during the bust, but this should be on the cards again asap AFAIC, it will open up serious amounts of land for high density development, increase employment, increase property value in its vicinity, thus increasing council taxes, increase people's quality of life, save the economy lots in loss of productivity...

DU is priority one though... If they serve the docklands with proper high quality transport, they could house a major amount of people in the docklands on sites currently vacant or by demolishing a lot of the low density crap that they have allowed and continue to allow (obviously the higher the site value, the quicker this would / could happen)...

Pete_Cavan

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

You know the way luas is a reliable (green line, red line as far as Museum) service, yeah? And it made its money in a much shorter space of time than anyone envisaged, yeah? Why is the government opposed to such a crucial rail link up in the capital city?

Is it just because they work in five year blocks, and couldn't care less about the long term?

The big difference is that Luas has nothing to do with CIE/IR. I would say the unwillingness to advance DU is more to do with government/senior civil servants distrust of CIE and the fact that the company is a perpetual loss making basketcase. The government doesn’t want to invest any more money into the company and would be quite happy for it to die. Instead they are investing in NTA/RPA projects (Luas BXD, BRT, cycling network).

If we were going to see DU progressed any time soon I would have expected the KPR2 to get funding in this budget. It seems like a no-brainer of a project; creates a new Dart line to service west Dublin/east Kildare, improves journey times on intercity services and paves the way for DU. It is much more than a project for Dublin, it benefits the national rail network. However, policy seems to be to keep funding away from IR and hope that it will things get so bad that they can pull the plug.

Idbatterim

The big difference is that Luas has nothing to do with CIE/IR. I would say the unwillingness to advance DU is more to do with government/senior civil servants distrust of CIE and the fact that the company is a perpetual loss making basketcase. The government doesn’t want to invest any more money into the company and would be quite happy for it to die.

surely DU could be CIE's saviour? in terms of service and getting passengers using it? The M50 and traffic in general is brutal again, at this stage, surely putting the majority of funds into rail makes sense now, after all the money the roads got and the fact that the road network is pretty much as good as its going to get? short of an easter bypass that I cant see happening for years...

poteen o hooley

Idbatterim wrote: »

they will be on best behaviour mode coming up to the elections, have a semi giveaway budget next year and probably have unemployment below 9% come the next election. The Irish water furore will no doubt be well over at that stage too...

That will make no difference. Large cohort will never forgive them.

But economy will go down again next year. Disastrous indicators worldwide will hit Irish economy.

Oasis_Dublin

I think if everyone can forgive Fianna Fáil, and their sovereignty destroying ways, then we can forgive the Labour Party. Either that or vote for a party other than the established three parties. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH.

But yeah, surely DU would be popular, while also somewhat alleviating traffic?

poteen o hooley

Everyone forgiving FF?

18% in the polls.

hahaha

Oasis_Dublin

Have we got any recent elections to go by? Have Fianna Fáil, the Irish economic sovereignty hating Irish Republican party, been the biggest party at any national elections recently. What use are elections when we have random polls?!

poteen o hooley

There's never been Oirish economic sovereignity

poteen o hooley

There's never been Oirish economic sovereignity

Real power is with markets/big central banks.

Rest is fairy tales.

Oasis_Dublin

Glib, and edited. Anyway, DU.

richiek83

Idbatterim wrote: »

they were close to starting and then the economy tanked, a REAL pity that they hadnt started. Ultimately I would blame the politicians more than voters, like I said, the should do what it takes to get reelected and once in, the can do contentious stuff (to some) in the early years. They generally only do something here, when the situation is so bad, that it cant be ignored... By the time MN gets built for example, the airport will probably have close to if not more than 30,000,000 using it! It will be 22,000,000 this year, a mere 6 miles out of town and it doesnt have its own rail link, now I appreciate the airports numbers exploded during the boom and why it was derailed during the bust, but this should be on the cards again asap AFAIC, it will open up serious amounts of land for high density development, increase employment, increase property value in its vicinity, thus increasing council taxes, increase people's quality of life, save the economy lots in loss of productivity...

DU is priority one though... If they serve the docklands with proper high quality transport, they could house a major amount of people in the docklands on sites currently vacant or by demolishing a lot of the low density crap that they have allowed and continue to allow (obviously the higher the site value, the quicker this would / could happen)...

True. MN was included in capital expenditure element of the the Four Year Plan which was devised around the time of the bailout. New Govt was elected and persued different objectives. NTA is currently reviewing options for transport in the MN/ North Dublin corridor to Swords. This review is expected to be completed by the end of the first quarter in 2015.

Aard

Back on topic please. Politics forum is that-a-way -->

- Moderator.

cgcsb

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The big difference is that Luas has nothing to do with CIE/IR. I would say the unwillingness to advance DU is more to do with government/senior civil servants distrust of CIE and the fact that the company is a perpetual loss making basketcase. The government doesn’t want to invest any more money into the company and would be quite happy for it to die. Instead they are investing in NTA/RPA projects (Luas BXD, BRT, cycling network).

If we were going to see DU progressed any time soon I would have expected the KPR2 to get funding in this budget. It seems like a no-brainer of a project; creates a new Dart line to service west Dublin/east Kildare, improves journey times on intercity services and paves the way for DU. It is much more than a project for Dublin, it benefits the national rail network. However, policy seems to be to keep funding away from IR and hope that it will things get so bad that they can pull the plug.

I think you are overlooking the vast differential in capital costs. The state can fund several projects across the country e.g. BXD, BRT, Cycle network and bike schemes in the regional Cities. Although DART Underground will probably deliver as many if not more benefits, it's the speed of delivery and the value of the smaller projects that attracts looser purse strings. DART u is a more long term project, a minimum of 4 years construction and massive capital required. It's just not as politically appealing.

MICKEYG

cgcsb wrote: »

I think you are overlooking the vast differential in capital costs. The state can fund several projects across the country e.g. BXD, BRT, Cycle network and bike schemes in the regional Cities. Although DART Underground will probably deliver as many if not more benefits, it's the speed of delivery and the value of the smaller projects that attracts looser purse strings. DART u is a more long term project, a minimum of 4 years construction and massive capital required. It's just not as politically appealing.

And therein lies the problem with this country. Rather than make the right decision and stand behind it we make the political short term decision and pay for it.

It does amaze me that even though both DU and MN have such strong business cases, no one tried to solve the problem with private funding. We had a construction industry on it knees with huge numbers of available workers. Why not get private investors in to fund the whole thing (at prices lower than would be the case even today), promising them a share of revenues to repay their investment.
I know lending was hard to come by but could the EIB not have stepped up given the favorable cost benefit analysis?
Doing the above would mean no impact on the exchequer figures.
Maybe I am being naive here.

cgcsb

MICKEYG wrote: »

And therein lies the problem with this country. Rather than make the right decision and stand behind it we make the political short term decision and pay for it.

It does amaze me that even though both DU and MN have such strong business cases, no one tried to solve the problem with private funding. We had a construction industry on it knees with huge numbers of available workers. Why not get private investors in to fund the whole thing (at prices lower than would be the case even today), promising them a share of revenues to repay their investment.
I know lending was hard to come by but could the EIB not have stepped up given the favorable cost benefit analysis?
Doing the above would mean no impact on the exchequer figures.
Maybe I am being naive here.

Such a private venture would carry significant risk, especially in the depths of recession, and private investors wouldn't touch it unless there was at least some commitment from the state.