DART+ (DART Expansion)

monument

CrabRevolution wrote: »

London's Metropolitan Area has 3 times as many people as our entire country. Hardly surprising that crossrail gets built a bit sooner, its not exactly a fair comparison.

Amsterdam and Copenhagen are comparable with Dublin in terms of city and metro populations, and in terms of population density of AMS (but not CPH).

In the time we have been talking about a Dart line under the city centre, both Amsterdam and Copenhagen have built fairly reasonable networks of metro and suburban railways which makes ours look like a joke.

Even if you taken into account of differences such as the Dutch regional / national network, the rail network around the area of Amsterdam or Copenhagen comparable to Dublin shows us up.

KCAccidental

Manchester have done brilliantly with metrolink. Never kicked expansion down the road and slowly but surely turned a limited system into an excellent urban transportation structure.

D.L.R.

monument wrote: »

Amsterdam and Copenhagen are comparable with Dublin in terms of city and metro populations, and in terms of population density of AMS (but not CPH).

In the time we have been talking about a Dart line under the city centre, both Amsterdam and Copenhagen have built fairly reasonable networks of metro and suburban railways which makes ours look like a joke.

Even if you taken into account of differences such as the Dutch regional / national network, the rail network around the area of Amsterdam or Copenhagen comparable to Dublin shows us up.

That's just two examples. There must be 20 cities in Europe which show up the Irish state on that score.

cgcsb

Obviously Dublin is miles behind the rest of the western world. Here's a small example: The alpine city of Innsbruck is home to just over 100,000 (about Limerick sized) They run a mix tram and bus with some brt standard sections at pinch points. Ticketing is off board but you can purchase a ticket from the driver at a higher cost. The city is also served by a comprehensive three line electrified suburban rail system,the central section of which has a 15 minute frequency 7 days a week. They also have a nitebus service 7 days a week at a 30 to 60 minute frequency. Ticketing is integrated and seem less in zones, I.e. If you take a train, tram or a bus to your destination, it doesn't matter to the ticket inspector. You can also purchase tickets for your dog, at about 1/3rd of an adult ticket.

AngryLips

If you ignore Luas, then Dublin performs poorly compared to its peers (and Amaterdam doesn't really compare on that one seeing as it's part of a larger conurbation in a much larger/denser country). But why are we ignoring Luas? The network has seen fairly consistent expansion since it began and is only half the age of Manchester Metrolink. Yes, the city could do better, but I don't think it's doing half bad.

monument

AngryLips wrote: »

If you ignore Luas, then Dublin performs poorly compared to its peers (and Amaterdam doesn't really compare on that one seeing as it's part of a larger conurbation in a much larger/denser country). But why are we ignoring Luas? The network has seen fairly consistent expansion since it began and is only half the age of Manchester Metrolink. Yes, the city could do better, but I don't think it's doing half bad.

Err... Or just take the Amsterdam metro and/or say half of the local suburban rail.

D.L.R.

AngryLips wrote: »

If you ignore Luas, then Dublin performs poorly compared to its peers (and Amaterdam doesn't really compare on that one seeing as it's part of a larger conurbation in a much larger/denser country). But why are we ignoring Luas? The network has seen fairly consistent expansion since it began and is only half the age of Manchester Metrolink. Yes, the city could do better, but I don't think it's doing half bad.

I wouldn't look to Manchester as a model to strive towards. The UK's second-tier cities are notoriously under-funded. A city of Manchester's size in Germany or France would have a comprehensive subway system.

Even if you include the luas, Dublin's transport system is still firmly second-rate. The luas is nice, but its got limited scope in terms of journey times and capacity.

Idbatterim

I wouldn't look to Manchester as a model to strive towards. The UK's second-tier cities are notoriously under-funded. A city of Manchester's size in Germany or France would have a comprehensive subway system.

Even if you include the luas, Dublin's transport system is still firmly second-rate. The luas is nice, but its got limited scope in terms of journey times and capacity.

the transport system here is laughabably bad... Speaking of rail transport in the city, I read this earlier... We need Metro north and DU underground asap, a real pity the work didnt start before the s**t hit the fan...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/shelved-metro-north-back-on-agenda-as-six-schemes-being-examined-for-north-dublin-transport-30809124.html

1huge1

I don't understand why they are re-examining the options again. There are some new options there that haven't been spoken about much.

I think everyone would agree that DU should get priority. Public consultation deadline is 19th of January though which is reasonably soon enough.

Only thing we can hope for is if FG/Lab announce some and get it shovel ready ASAP with the aim of getting themselves re-elected in 2016.

Here is a link to the paper published today, originally 26 projects were looked at and now it has been narrowed down to 6.
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Appraisal_Report_19112014_final.pdf

murphaph

1huge1 wrote: »

IOnly thing we can hope for is if FG/Lab announce some and get it shovel ready ASAP with the aim of getting themselves re-elected in 2016.

Not to put too fine a point on it but this sh!t doesn't win elections in Ireland!

The very sad reality is that the likes of us on here that want to see this built are in the minority nationally. The electorate is extremely parochial...even voters in South Dublin would rather a swimming pool in their constituency than Metro North in Fingal....and that's inside Dublin. Outside Greater Dublin the likes of Metro North is so controversial that it could easily lose FG the election.

The majority of Irish people simply don't understand the concept of the greater good I'm afraid.

handlemaster

http://m.rte.ie/news/2014/1208/665495-dublin-transport/

7-10 yrs.

Just say it would be builth . Couldnt plan a piss up in a brewery

Ren2k7

Given that the SSG station plans to incorporate Metro North the government's review process could conceivably create a big headache for IE if it decides not to go with the revised Metro North suggestion. DART U runs underneath the MN concourse, so if MN is cancelled the entire SSG station would have to be redesigned. Ergo back to ABP for another lengthy planning application. This country.....

AngryLips

Metro Optimised seems like the best option in light of BXD and budget restrictions. Putting Metro underground in Ballymun was always a stupid idea given that the at-grade alignment was available. While at the same time, reducing the number of stops in the city centre makes sense because it means Metro will cater for different journey types over Luas where one will be used more for short hops and the other primarily for getting into and out of town.

What I don't understand is why all the rail options presented are spurs from one line or another when many of them are sufficiently long as to be lines of their own. My feeling about many of the spurs proposed here is that they are just going to create future choke points like what we see now on the northern line.

Pete_Cavan

It seems they are obsessed with linking the airport (even by a mediocre bus that will probably be a worse service than existing services) and have no interest in building on the existing infrastructure to ease congestion in the city centre. Clearly there is no interest in building something which would actually create profitable rail services.

Sam Russell

It would be relatively cheap and quick to build a Dart spur from Clongriffin to the airport. It would provide a quick link for small cost.

D.L.R.

AngryLips wrote: »

Metro Optimised seems like the best option in light of BXD and budget restrictions. Putting Metro underground in Ballymun was always a stupid idea given that the at-grade alignment was available. While at the same time, reducing the number of stops in the city centre makes sense because it means Metro will cater for different journey types over Luas where one will be used more for short hops and the other primarily for getting into and out of town.

I disagree. The city is where the heaviest use will be.

Upper O'Connell and SSG are a mile apart, thats a bit too far IMO.

BonkeyDonker

Plenty of room at College Green apparently.......

Ren2k7

D.L.R. wrote: »

I disagree. The city is where the heaviest use will be.

Upper O'Connell and SSG are a mile apart, thats a bit too far IMO.

BXD has that covered no? Short journeys from SSG to OCS: Luas, longer ones Metro.

cgcsb

Sam Russell wrote: »

It would be relatively cheap and quick to build a Dart spur from Clongriffin to the airport. It would provide a quick link for small cost.

Over €200mil for a rail services with low frequency, owing to low capacity available on the northern line, that serves only one stop at the airport.

You'd be spending all that money to just add one stop to the IÉ network.

Also the route means that existing bus services would be faster than the DART. It's cheap compared to Metro North, but delivers nothing.

cgcsb

D.L.R. wrote: »

I disagree. The city is where the heaviest use will be.

Upper O'Connell and SSG are a mile apart, thats a bit too far IMO.

the route is duplicated by luas, people making shorter journeys would prever overground transport anyway, less time wasted on escalators.

roddney

cgcsb wrote: »

Over €200mil for a rail services with low frequency, owing to low capacity available on the northern line, that serves only one stop at the airport.

You'd be spending all that money to just add one stop to the IÉ network.

Also the route means that existing bus services would be faster than the DART. It's cheap compared to Metro North, but delivers nothing.

Agreed. Spur would be useless unless they quad tracked the Northern Line as far as Clongriffen also. That would cost a hell of a lot more than 200 m (as a standalone project).

loyatemu

the Dart spur to the airport is pointless, it's just Irish Rail attempting to mark their territory. It would be slower than many of the bus services already in existence (which utilise a tunnel we spent €750m building).

Sure, build a rail link to the airport, but only as part of a wider network serving the northside.

MICKEYG

Why are we going through this whole evaluation process again?
Was everything not agreed but stopped due to funding issues? My understanding was both DU and MN have very positive cost benefit analysis figures.
What has changed? Seems to be just an excuse to spend more money on consultants.

cgcsb

roddney wrote: »

Agreed. Spur would be useless unless they quad tracked the Northern Line as far as Clongriffen also. That would cost a hell of a lot more than 200 m (as a standalone project).

Even with quad tracking, which has it's merits for other reasons, The Journey time would make it uncompetitive, with express buses beating it by a good 15 mins at least. You'd also be building over 5 km of track just to service one new station on the network. However it may be useful for intercity connections. Say a direct Cork-Central Dublin-Dublin Airport service via DART underground, but as a commuter link not much use at all.

cgcsb

MICKEYG wrote: »

Why are we going through this whole evaluation process again?
Was everything not agreed but stopped due to funding issues? My understanding was both DU and MN have very positive cost benefit analysis figures.
What has changed? Seems to be just an excuse to spend more money on consultants.

As stated earlier in this thread these alternatives have mostly been considered in various reports in the past and rejected, but shure let's do it again.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

Even with quad tracking, which has it's merits for other reasons, The Journey time would make it uncompetitive, with express buses beating it by a good 15 mins at least. You'd also be building over 5 km of track just to service one new station on the network. However it may be useful for intercity connections. Say a direct Cork-Central Dublin-Dublin Airport service via DART underground, but as a commuter link not much use at all.

I would see the airport spur as a non-stop airport-City Centre route with a 30 min frequency taking 20 to 25 min. I would not see it as a part of Dart as such but a stand-alone service. With DU, it makes a lot more sense, but it could be done now.

cgcsb

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would see the airport spur as a non-stop airport-City Centre route with a 30 min frequency taking 20 to 25 min. I would not see it as a part of Dart as such but a stand-alone service. With DU, it makes a lot more sense, but it could be done now.

200,000,000 for a half hourly(horribly infrequent), one stop service that has the same journey time as express buses. It's just no worth it unless it's port of an intercity service.

Sheldons Brain

roddney wrote: »

Agreed. Spur would be useless unless they quad tracked the Northern Line as far as Clongriffen also. That would cost a hell of a lot more than 200 m (as a standalone project).

There is significant scope for improving the capacity of the northern line, which should be done anyway.

D.L.R.

cgcsb wrote: »

the route is duplicated by luas, people making shorter journeys would prever overground transport anyway, less time wasted on escalators.

Its not efficient in terms of passenger distribution. A mile is too wide a gap for a metro system in the centre of a city. Coupled with shorter platforms you'd have crowding issues from day one.

cgcsb

re: platform length, I'd agree 100%
Re: fewer stops: I disagree, it's one less stop, nothing major, and it's one of the most difficult/expensive stations to build. If I were in Stephen's Green and wanted to travel to Trinners/westmoreland st, I'd either walk or take the luas taking the metro would mean lost of escalators just to go one stop.