DART+ (DART Expansion)

D.L.R.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I guess if we spent on infrastructure like our international competitors a branch underground from Inchicore/Heuston to MN would be an obvious move....

And a single rail gauge always helps :rolleyes:

Sam Russell

D.L.R. wrote: »

Northern Line capacity is the achilles heel there.

Well, MN, if built to Dart spec would be an alternative route to the airport.

But build DU and Clongriffin/airport spur first.

Sam Russell

D.L.R. wrote: »

And a single rail gauge always helps :rolleyes:

But think how much money we saved by building the Luas on the UK gauge rather than sticking to the 1.6m gauge. Why with those savings we could have joined up the two lines.

Thrashssacre

AngryLips wrote: »

It would make ultimate sense to terminate them at Dublin Airport via Clongriffin spur so that Dublin Airport can better serve as a hub for the entire country ...given that it's fast becoming that already.

I'd rather see the airport served from a spur off the maynooth line as I think there more scope for trains there plus if done at broombridge and something can be done about the junction just beyond the ppt too allow trains from the heuston side too access it I think it allows much more interchange and route options although this idea could be pricey which at the end of the day will be the most important factor too the government.

Schadenfreudia

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I'd rather see the airport served from a spur off the maynooth line as I think there more scope for trains there plus if done at broombridge and something can be done about the junction just beyond the ppt too allow trains from the heuston side too access

If you don't stitch in the DART and Luas lines you are missing probably half of the airport traffic.

Thrashssacre

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

If you don't stitch in the DART and Luas lines you are missing probably half of the airport traffic.

It would meet the luas green at broombridge and red at Connolly isn't the bray dart to be routed towards maynooth after dart underground is build anyways? They could send every second one too the airport Then any intercity train could reach anywhere in the country from the airport aswell apart from the northern line unless you turned around at connolly.

D.L.R.

Why the hell didn't they just build the airport beside the railway in the first place??

Schadenfreudia

D.L.R. wrote: »

Why the hell didn't they just build the airport beside the railway in the first place??

My God - Ccearly you don't understand the principles of Airportology!

...and neither do I

Thrashssacre

D.L.R. wrote: »

Why the hell didn't they just build the airport beside the railway in the first place??

In fairness I don't think they would have ever expected 25 million people a year traveling through it when the area was chosen the fact it Doesent have a rail link by now I think is less excusable it really should have been done a long time ago

Sam Russell

Thrashssacre wrote: »

In fairness I don't think they would have ever expected 25 million people a year traveling through it when the area is chosen the fact it Doesent have a rail link by now I think is less excusable it really should have been done a long time ago

They should have built the railway station as part of the second terminal, together with a fully functioning bus station.

crushproof

Sam Russell wrote: »

They should have built the railway station as part of the second terminal, together with a fully functioning bus station.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - what is this logical thinking you speak of???
Ohhhh right, the kind of thought that a 10 year old would have but not the planners of our fair country.

alias no.9

Sam Russell wrote: »

They should have built the railway station as part of the second terminal, together with a fully functioning bus station.

They built a concourse in the basement of T1 for a future rail terminus back when it was built. It was used briefly as a check in area in the late '00s but I'm guessing it's back to storing e-voting machines or some such again.

Thrashssacre

alias no.9 wrote: »

They built a concourse in the basement of T1 for a future rail terminus back when it was built. It was used briefly as a check in area in the late '00s but I'm guessing it's back to storing e-voting machines or some such again.

Were Irish rail planning too use this for the clongriffin spur?

alias no.9

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Were Irish rail planning too use this for the clongriffin spur?

No idea but I could see a station built as part of T2 being similarly redundant for 40 years

Thrashssacre

alias no.9 wrote: »

No idea but I could see a station built as part of T2 being similarly redundant for 40 years

Seamingly so with talks of the luas branch from cabra too serve the airport

Ren2k7

It's good to see Irish Rail still aggressively pushing Dart U despite the govt pushing the upgrade of the hopelessly unsuitable Phoenix Park tunnel. I can imagine that's putting a fair degree of unwanted pressure on FGLAB to get moving on DU. The PPT is just a stop gap and not suitable as a long term solution to Dublin's public transport woes.

Schadenfreudia

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It's good to see Irish Rail still aggressively pushing Dart U despite the govt pushing the upgrade of the hopelessly unsuitable Phoenix Park tunnel. I can imagine that's putting a fair degree of unwanted pressure on FGLAB to get moving on DU. The PPT is just a stop gap and not suitable as a long term solution to Dublin's public transport woes.

On the wireless at one Paschal was quoted as saying (or maybe it was Irish Rail) that the PPT was in "no way" considered a substitute for DU.

Ren2k7

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

On the wireless at one Paschal was quoted as saying (or maybe it was Irish Rail) that the PPT was in "no way" considered a substitute for DU.

We'll see soon enough. But it's quite obvious that the current government are very cool on DU and prefer the utterly insane BRT scheme.

Idbatterim

We'll see soon enough. But it's quite obvious that the current government are very cool on DU and prefer the utterly insane BRT scheme.

wouldnt surprise me, its a cheap poor option, the less money they have to "waste" on anything that isnt tax cuts or welfare increases, the better as far as they are concerned. I look / ed at Greece in disbelief, we are the next up for the banana republic award in Europe...

Its a total and utter shame that they hadnt signed contracts and started work on MN and DU before the **** hit the fan, it would have been the best several billion ever spent by the state here...

mackerski

Sam Russell wrote: »

But think how much money we saved by building the Luas on the UK gauge rather than sticking to the 1.6m gauge. Why with those savings we could have joined up the two lines.

There is no single rail gauge across main lines railways in the UK. Perhaps you mean Standard, International or European Gauge.

Schadenfreudia

Idbatterim wrote: »

Its a total and utter shame that they hadnt signed contracts and started work on MN and DU before the **** hit the fan, it would have been the best several billion ever spent by the state here...

Not all the fault of the politicians; they are hugely facilitated by our desperate need for a "debate" every time we build a bus shelter!

Can't think of a single major project in the past twenty years that hasn't had endless debate about it's size, location etc etc.

After twenty years of delay the Irish Times opined the other day that we shouldn't rush the new Children's Hospital just 'cos each years delay will cost €70 million.

They suggested the congested site needs thorough analysis before going ahead; the same IT that campaigned for the hospital not to be located on the M50 - leading to the Parnell Sq mess and probably now to the James's St mess.

They made the same contribution to Luas and DU and MN - and about everything else. Endless controversy sells papers.....

Sam Russell

mackerski wrote: »

There is no single rail gauge across main lines railways in the UK. Perhaps you mean Standard, International or European Gauge.

I refer to the 4ft 8.5 inch gauge as the 'UK Gauge' as that is where it started. The only other gauge used in the UK is in NI, so that does not count. It was used in France because the French Railways were built by British engineers. It was easier for the railways to spread over Europe by keeping to the standard gauge.

Using the 4ft 8.5 inch for Luas made no sense as it produced a second standard when one would have done.

FreudianSlippers

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Not all the fault of the politicians; they are hugely facilitated by our desperate need for a "debate" every time we build a bus shelter!

Can't think of a single major project in the past twenty years that hasn't had endless debate about it's size, location etc etc.

After twenty years of delay the Irish Times opined the other day that we shouldn't rush the new Children's Hospital just 'cos each years delay will cost €70 million.

They suggested the congested site needs thorough analysis before going ahead; the same IT that campaigned for the hospital not to be located on the M50 - leading to the Parnell Sq mess and probably now to the James's St mess.

They made the same contribution to Luas and DU and MN - and about everything else. Endless controversy sells papers.....

You've kind of inadvertently proved another point though: Everyone wants their 2 cents. All the people arguing it should be in a greenfield out on the M50 in the face of medical evidence to support tri-location, the people worried about the "character" of the Mater area, etc.

We tend to let a hell of a lot of people with no business being involved give their opinion.

cgcsb

Sam Russell wrote: »

I refer to the 4ft 8.5 inch gauge as the 'UK Gauge' as that is where it started. The only other gauge used in the UK is in NI, so that does not count. It was used in France because the French Railways were built by British engineers. It was easier for the railways to spread over Europe by keeping to the standard gauge.

Using the 4ft 8.5 inch for Luas made no sense as it produced a second standard when one would have done.

the international standard is 4ft 8.5 inches. We have to buy trams from other countries like France, Germany and South Korea. It's easier and cheaper to buy an off the shelf product rather than buy a bespoke Irish gauge tram that'd have to be made specially for Ireland.

An Irish Gauge tram would also present design challenges for Dublin's street running trams where space is tight enough.

D.L.R.

cgcsb wrote: »

the international standard is 4ft 8.5 inches. We have to buy trams from other countries like France, Germany and South Korea. It's easier and cheaper to buy an off the shelf product rather than buy a bespoke Irish gauge tram that'd have to be made specially for Ireland.

An Irish Gauge tram would also present design challenges for Dublin's street running trams where space is tight enough.

I wonder if dual gauge is possible for our two particular gauges

Schadenfreudia

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

We tend to let a hell of a lot of people with no business being involved give their opinion.

A system that couldn't deliver the hospital in 20 years is broke - and in need of fixing.

Giving their opinion is a right in a democracy - allowing third party planning objections isn't - it's just a daft decision we are, collectively, paying for every day.

In all sorts of ways.

Ren2k7

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Not all the fault of the politicians; they are hugely facilitated by our desperate need for a "debate" every time we build a bus shelter!

Can't think of a single major project in the past twenty years that hasn't had endless debate about it's size, location etc etc.

After twenty years of delay the Irish Times opined the other day that we shouldn't rush the new Children's Hospital just 'cos each years delay will cost €70 million.

They suggested the congested site needs thorough analysis before going ahead; the same IT that campaigned for the hospital not to be located on the M50 - leading to the Parnell Sq mess and probably now to the James's St mess.

They made the same contribution to Luas and DU and MN - and about everything else. Endless controversy sells papers.....

Why can't policy makers and planners just ignore the Property Times? They bear much of the blame for pumping up the property market during the "boom" years so for them to now be calling for a "thorough anaylsis" of much needed infrastructure projects is truly quite contemptable.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

An Irish Gauge tram would also present design challenges for Dublin's street running trams where space is tight enough.

It is 165 mm (or 6 and half inches) wider, and only at the wheels/bogies. Even the lads that hot up their hatches can manage that - hardly a major design challenge. The bigger problem would be the 750 volts if the Dart and Luas were mixed. Anyway trams would not be bought off the shelf as the design for each market. For example France (where the Luas trams are made) has several versions of the tram with quite demanding special requirements. In Bordeau they have underground power an in Nice they have battery power, and designing different bogies is hardly rocket science.

I cannot believe the gauge could save enough to join the two Luas lines ( well it clearly didn't).

richiek83

Idbatterim wrote: »

wouldnt surprise me, its a cheap poor option, the less money they have to "waste" on anything that isnt tax cuts or welfare increases, the better as far as they are concerned. I look / ed at Greece in disbelief, we are the next up for the banana republic award in Europe...

Its a total and utter shame that they hadnt signed contracts and started work on MN and DU before the **** hit the fan, it would have been the best several billion ever spent by the state here...

Really was. The previous Government's Four Year Plan done at the time of the bailout actually had in it, funds earmarked, to proceed with Metro North if I remember correctly. The new Government reviewed all spending plans including capital plans and this is how the LUAS Cross City got the go ahead.

Grandeeod

richiek83 wrote: »

Really was. The previous Government's Four Year Plan done at the time of the bailout actually had in it, funds earmarked, to proceed with Metro North if I remember correctly. The new Government reviewed all spending plans including capital plans and this is how the LUAS Cross City got the go ahead.

2005. T21. Funds were ringfenced.:rolleyes: