DART+ (DART Expansion)

noelfirl

http://web.archive.org/web/20130130095342/http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/assets/files/downloads/Railway_Works_Drawings/Area_106-RIVER_LIFFEY_TO_EAST_WALL/RO_Structure_Details/DU-ST_106_O-A_06.PDF

This file has it. Entrance hall, escalators and underground walkway to ticket hall from LMS building.

monument

salmocab wrote: »

whilst I was being a bit tongue in cheek mentioning the NCH on the DU thread in the first place, I think there is something to be said for linking transport infrastructure and other types of infrastructure. Yes the m50 can be a mess but Rialto is a mess too with little scope to improve, a hospital is likely to be in place for 50 to 100 years so transport infrastructure can be brought to it and improved as time goes on. The NCH is for the whole country not just Dublin which means that it needs to be accessed from outside the m50 as much as from inside it.

Parking on one or both sides of the road could removed -- bingo, new traffic lane into the NCH.

McAlban

Poses the question though, what are they going to do with the rest of the building. Isn' it a listed building along with the Wool Store and the Hotel next door?

Always Loved North Wall station, would love to see a decent restoration. I Remember my uncle working in there in the 80's/90's when there was still some freight going in and out.

Reuben1210

According to a thread on skyscraper city, they are keeping both and restoring them, and planning permission has gone in for a big development on the rest of that block...

1huge1

Ya. skyscraper city have a good discussion involving it.

Full schematics for the building here

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=515490&page=88 (about half way down)

McAlban

Good to hear. I always think it's a shame when a station is repurposed or left derelict. These Victorian Buildings should be preserved as much as possible I think. And When a Refurbishment is done right it can only add to the quality of the building.

http://archiseek.com/2010/irish-rail-freight-offices-north-wall-quay-dublin/

hardy_buck

Does the RPO expire at the end of September or the start? There doesn't appear to be much movement in either case which leads me to fear the worst....

cgcsb

It's late september

Reuben1210

hardy_buck wrote: »

Does the RPO expire at the end of September or the start? There doesn't appear to be much movement in either case which leads me to fear the worst....

Really hoping common sense prevails, and they set aside the money to build this....transformative for transport in the country...

hardy_buck

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Really hoping common sense prevails, and they set aside the money to build this....transformative for transport in the country...

You're not the only one, however I have a sinking feeling when I see that the HSE are looking for another €1.4Bn+ http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0831/724663-health-hse/ and the government need a tax cut sweetener for the upcoming election

Reuben1210

hardy_buck wrote: »

You're not the only one, however I have a sinking feeling when I see that the HSE are looking for another €1.4Bn+ http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0831/724663-health-hse/ and the government need a tax cut sweetener for the upcoming election

oh great!

Schadenfreudia

hardy_buck wrote: »

You're not the only one, however I have a sinking feeling when I see that the HSE are looking for another €1.4Bn+ http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0831/724663-health-hse/ and the government need a tax cut sweetener for the upcoming election

If they simply go ahead with the CPO (€150 million) and protect the route that would be a major advance.

They could kick the commitment to build a few years down the road.

The important thing is not to go backwards at this stage....

That would be criminal :mad:

Ren2k7

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Really hoping common sense prevails, and they set aside the money to build this....transformative for transport in the country...

Common sense doesn't exist within the collective minds of FGLAB.

hardy_buck

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Common sense doesn't exist within the collective minds of FGLAB.

I don't see much(intelligent proposals anyways) about transport or infrastructure in the Manifestos of FF/SF/AAA/etc. either, this isn't so much a FG/LAB problem so much as it is a problem with the entire political structure and electorate...

Anyhow let's not hijack this thread and turn into yet another 'gubbermint' bashing thread, this forum has enough of those.

More to the point, I think the proposal to go ahead with the CPO and just sit on things sounds good. Is that legally acceptable in the eyes of the high court?

Reuben1210

hardy_buck wrote: »

I don't see much(intelligent proposals anyways) about transport or infrastructure in the Manifestos of FF/SF/AAA/etc. either, this isn't so much a FG/LAB problem so much as it is a problem with the entire political structure and electorate...

Anyhow let's not hijack this thread and turn into yet another 'gubbermint' bashing thread, this forum has enough of those.

More to the point, I think the proposal to go ahead with the CPO and just sit on things sounds good. Is that legally acceptable in the eyes of the high court?

Was this done with metro north, givent the hundreds of millions spent, or was that just designs and consultancy?

Idbatterim

best case scenario they start work on DU and kick the swords /airport option down the road, even if its 2/3 years. We have waited decades and the solution will be in place for decades. I read about the HSE earlier and the amount of other areas that are starved of funding, then we are in an election year, there is virtually nothing in the pot... My point being that giving go ahead to MN etc now wouldnt be on politically, resecure power and then early on in the term, do the correct thing, but not necessarily popular with the public thing (when you read about virtually every issue, the publics level of understanding is laughable) ...

Would constructing a large multistorey car park at the Point depot be an option, for traffic coming from port tunnel, it would allow connection to red luas line, which will shortly connect to the green line, then onto Sandyford Business Park , Cherrywood etc. Large amounts commute via the M50 car park from north dublin to get to this location...

It may be a solution to stop total gridlock until a permanent solution has been come up with...

Van.Bosch

Idbatterim wrote: »

best case scenario they start work on DU and kick the swords /airport option down the road, even if its 2/3 years. We have waited decades and the solution will be in place for decades. I read about the HSE earlier and the amount of other areas that are starved of funding, then we are in an election year, there is virtually nothing in the pot... My point being that giving go ahead to MN etc now wouldnt be on politically, resecure power and then early on in the term, do the correct thing, but not necessarily popular with the public thing (when you read about virtually every issue, the publics level of understanding is laughable) ...

Would constructing a large multistorey car park at the Point depot be an option, for traffic coming from port tunnel, it would allow connection to red luas line, which will shortly connect to the green line, then onto Sandyford Business Park , Cherrywood etc. Large amounts commute via the M50 car park from north dublin to get to this location...

It may be a solution to stop total gridlock until a permanent solution has been come up with...

Would that just clog up the tunnel, so people in N Dub, would drive through the tunnel and then onto 2 trams to get to work? If they don't use the commuter line and then walk to green line I can't see them doing this.

We also shouldn't be bringing more people into the centre.

Idbatterim

Would that just clog up the tunnel, so people in N Dub, would drive through the tunnel and then onto 2 trams to get to work? If they don't use the commuter line and then walk to green line I can't see them doing this.

We also shouldn't be bringing more people into the centre.

It wouldnt just be for that area, it would also be for people working in the docklands and city centre, you could easily walk from point depot or take luas red line, depending on where you are working...

There is a maximum number of vehicles that can be in the tunnel at any one time, price it so that is always at the max usage. It could generate a fortune, that could then go onto pay for rail and other transport infrastructure...

I mean a lot of traffic could potentially be taken off the existing N1 corridor between the port tunnel entrance and city centre... It might buy a few more years of non total gridlock...

antoinolachtnai

The capacity of the tunnel is immense. A giant park and ride at the port is not really an option though. Quite apart from the space it would require and the cost of constructing, it would be hard to get cars into and out of their spaces fast enough. The car park itself would be a big traffic jam.

markpb

Idbatterim wrote: »

It wouldnt just be for that area, it would also be for people working in the docklands and city centre, you could easily walk from point depot or take luas red line, depending on where you are working...

There is a maximum number of vehicles that can be in the tunnel at any one time, price it so that is always at the max usage. It could generate a fortune, that could then go onto pay for rail and other transport infrastructure...

I mean a lot of traffic could potentially be taken off the existing N1 corridor between the port tunnel entrance and city centre... It might buy a few more years of non total gridlock...

What happens to all that traffic when it exits the southern portal of the tunnel? Does it suddenly dissipate into the high capacity streets around the Point Depot?

The only way that's workable is the P&R is at the northern end of the tunnel and they're bussed through the tunnel. Otherwise people will think they've come that far, why not drive the rest of the way?

Even with that, asking people to park, bus and then luas won't be attractive to many people. If they have to park, bus, luas and then transfer to dart or green line luas, that's even less attractive.

I agree the tunnel can be part of a solution but I haven't seen a good solution yet. I think the 41x, 33x and Swords Express buses are a good start though.

Also don't forget that the tunnel operators won't be keen on increasing the volume through the tunnel too much because it will increase the chances of congestion or a crash both of which are major disadvantages for the primary users of the tunnel.

Idbatterim

like I said, much of it could park at the large car park. Where does it go, when the tens of thousands of cars currently funnel down the existing N1 to avoid the E10 toll.... currently there are thousands of cars driving into the city centre, through an old undercapacity residential areas to get to the city centre, this also holds up buses etc. We have a motorway running almost all the way in, that results in getting the cars off much congested streets, at least for most of the way. A lot of these people are in cars, due to the totally crap and pathetic transport options here...

markpb

Idbatterim wrote: »

like I said, much of it could park at the large car park. Where does it go, when the tens of thousands of cars currently funnel down the existing N1 to avoid the E10 toll....

What do you think will happen if the toll is reduced?

A - less people will drive into town
B - more people will drive into town
C - the same amount of people will drive, all of them moving to DPT and no-one new will be enticed by the empty streets of Drumcondra and decide to drive (instead of taking public transport or moving to an area poorly served by public transport because driving is now an option)

cgcsb

hardy_buck wrote: »

You're not the only one, however I have a sinking feeling when I see that the HSE are looking for another €1.4Bn+ http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0831/724663-health-hse/ and the government need a tax cut sweetener for the upcoming election

The dept of defense is also looking for 3 new ships, a rake of new aircraft and tanks, every department will want a boost in funding.

cgcsb

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

If they simply go ahead with the CPO (€150 million) and protect the route that would be a major advance.

They could kick the commitment to build a few years down the road.

The important thing is not to go backwards at this stage....

That would be criminal :mad:

with the planning permission expiring in 3 weeks time, we can't kick the can. It's either now or take multiple steps backward and have to get new planning approval.

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

best case scenario they start work on DU and kick the swords /airport option down the road, even if its 2/3 years. We have waited decades and the solution will be in place for decades. I read about the HSE earlier and the amount of other areas that are starved of funding, then we are in an election year, there is virtually nothing in the pot... My point being that giving go ahead to MN etc now wouldnt be on politically, resecure power and then early on in the term, do the correct thing, but not necessarily popular with the public thing (when you read about virtually every issue, the publics level of understanding is laughable) ...

Public information comes from the herald and indo. Neither paper actually understand, or have taken the time to read about DARTu, many articles still insist that it's a connection between Heuston and Connolly :rolleyes:

and that goal can be achieved by reopening the ppt :rolleyes:

hardy_buck

cgcsb wrote: »

Public information comes from the herald and indo. Neither paper actually understand, or have taken the time to read about DARTu, many articles still insist that it's a connection between Heuston and Connolly :rolleyes:

and that goal can be achieved by reopening the ppt :rolleyes:

I'll never for the life of me understand why the newspapers have such an axe to grind against capital expenditure in this country. At the very thought of a big project in our capital they are almost tripping over themselves to resist it, howling at the cost or disruption during building..

One such example that makes me want to bang my (and the authors much, much harder) head off a wall: http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-its-time-to-bury-the-dart-underground-plan-permanently-31432860.html
Millions spent on planning and consultations, proven business cases, economic benefits (€2-€2.5 out for every €1 in) confirmed by leading London economists...

I can't understand this agenda..

cgcsb

I love the bit about 'tunnel mining' being 'laborious' as if it was 1895 Paris and we were discussing Cité station.

Langerland

How do all the great ideas end up back on the Dart line? An already over capacity stretch of two track rail that only extends to Bray? Surely a relatively low cost project would be to add 2 or more tracks to the dart central line at various intervals. Remove all the intercity, commuter and cargo trains from these lines. This would then allow for all the extra capacity that would be planned from the Dart Airport connections, etc. The same should be done on the lines approaching Heuston from Newbridge - especially to maximise the Pheonix Park tunnel.

Maybe this is already planned I didn't check that!

Reuben1210

hardy_buck wrote: »

I'll never for the life of me understand why the newspapers have such an axe to grind against capital expenditure in this country. At the very thought of a big project in our capital they are almost tripping over themselves to resist it, howling at the cost or disruption during building..

One such example that makes me want to bang my (and the authors much, much harder) head off a wall: http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-its-time-to-bury-the-dart-underground-plan-permanently-31432860.html
Millions spent on planning and consultations, proven business cases, economic benefits (€2-€2.5 out for every €1 in) confirmed by leading London economists...

I can't understand this agenda..

I think that unfortunately, the papers believe many of the people who buy them daily are very conservative and pro "ye old Dublin", and not progressive...and basically just moaners and nimbies

hardy_buck

cgcsb wrote: »

I love the bit about 'tunnel mining' being 'laborious' as if it was 1895 Paris and we were discussing Cité station.

The sad thing is that people are largely clueless about infrastructure and are likely to believe most of what is written here. Link it to the Celtic tiger years and declare it a white elephant and all of a sudden you have a nice hit piece on your hands.