DART+ (DART Expansion)

Carawaystick

Langerland wrote: »

How do all the great ideas end up back on the Dart line? An already over capacity stretch of two track rail that only extends to Bray? Surely a relatively low cost project would be to add 2 or more tracks to the dart central line at various intervals. Remove all the intercity, commuter and cargo trains from these lines. This would then allow for all the extra capacity that would be planned from the Dart Airport connections, etc. The same should be done on the lines approaching Heuston from Newbridge - especially to maximise the Pheonix Park tunnel.

Maybe this is already planned I didn't check that!

The plan is to run Bray -> Maynooth line

and Kildare ->dart underground -> North Dublin

Dublin city centre is to be resignalled to be able to run 20 trains per hour each way, or one train every 3 minutes.

8 carriage trains with 200 people per carriage is a through put of 32k people per hour per direction, which should be grand for a while

THis also avoids the conflict of where a train on the Maynooth line coming into tara street blocks a northbound and southbound track from being used by a northern line train at present.

Dardania

McAlban wrote: »

Good to hear. I always think it's a shame when a station is repurposed or left derelict. These Victorian Buildings should be preserved as much as possible I think. And When a Refurbishment is done right it can only add to the quality of the building.

http://archiseek.com/2010/irish-rail-freight-offices-north-wall-quay-dublin/

Totally agree. I attended some meetings in one of those buildings while Spencer Dock was being built (it was the site office for that development) - was a much nicer building than the rest of the development!

Zebra3

hardy_buck wrote: »

I'll never for the life of me understand why the newspapers have such an axe to grind against capital expenditure in this country. At the very thought of a big project in our capital they are almost tripping over themselves to resist it, howling at the cost or disruption during building..

One such example that makes me want to bang my (and the authors much, much harder) head off a wall: http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-its-time-to-bury-the-dart-underground-plan-permanently-31432860.html
Millions spent on planning and consultations, proven business cases, economic benefits (€2-€2.5 out for every €1 in) confirmed by leading London economists...

I can't understand this agenda..

I hope someone with far greater infrastructural knowledge than myself has written into the Herald to correct that nonsense.

alias no.9

hardy_buck wrote: »

I'll never for the life of me understand why the newspapers have such an axe to grind against capital expenditure in this country. At the very thought of a big project in our capital they are almost tripping over themselves to resist it, howling at the cost or disruption during building..

One such example that makes me want to bang my (and the authors much, much harder) head off a wall: http://www.herald.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-white/dan-white-its-time-to-bury-the-dart-underground-plan-permanently-31432860.html
Millions spent on planning and consultations, proven business cases, economic benefits (€2-€2.5 out for every €1 in) confirmed by leading London economists...

I can't understand this agenda..

I can only hope he's being deliberately obtuse to get DU back on the agenda. He misrepresents the purpose of DU so badly that it almost has to be deliberate. He couldn't possibly be as ignorant as he seems to be, could he?

Schadenfreudia

alias no.9 wrote: »

I can only hope he's being deliberately obtuse to get DU back on the agenda. He misrepresents the purpose of DU so badly that it almost has to be deliberate. He couldn't possibly be as ignorant as he seems to be, could he?

Of course he could!

From Busaras to the DART; from the Luas to the M50...every transport infrastructure initiative in Dublin (and elsewhere) is seen by the media as an opportunity to create controversy and hence sell papers.

From Garret Fitzgerald's senile ramblings about the Luas to this latest bull...all in a good cause...keeping mediocre hacks in jobs. :cool:

Grandeeod

Hard to believe that over 12 years later DU (nee the interconnector) is still a victim of shabby, poor and downright ignorant journalism.

hardy_buck

Grandeeod wrote: »

Hard to believe that over 12 years later DU (nee the interconnector) is still a victim of shabby, poor and downright ignorant journalism.

And it will likely be another 12 years of this too, Howlin has claimed that they need to make €1.5Bn of adjustments shutting down the HSE request for €1.9Bn. http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0901/724892-budget/

Consider then the rumours that the government will cut income tax or offer another break as an election sweetener and I would say you have odds on that this project will be scrapped, especially when you have clowns like those in the herald painting them as white elephants...

It seems that if people can tolerate the absolute disaster that is the HSE, they can certainly tolerate traffic problems.

cgcsb

The government does not need to spend €4bn in this budget in order to go ahead with DARTu. It'll be a PPP.

FreudianSlippers

cgcsb wrote: »

The government does not need to spend €4bn in this budget in order to go ahead with DARTu. It'll be a PPP.

Do they have a partner on board, or has it not yet gone to tender? If they do, should it probably go back to tender anyway though?

Schadenfreudia

Key thing is to go ahead with the CPOs.

That shows commitment to eventually doing it when the cash is available; by whatever mechanism.

Not going ahead with the CPO would be akin to building houses on the Harcourt St line reservation; it vastly increases the cost of the project - all planning would have to start from zero and it would be a hammer-blow to the chances of DU ever going ahead - regardless of what waffle might accompany an announcement.

The most disheartening thing really is that we are collectively to blame; obviously not one single party or Independent seems to think there is any electoral gain in promising to go ahead with DU.

With 22 days left to a possible catastrophic decision for PT in the GDA I hear M Martin waffling about the Garda Commissioner and SF have certainly never felt strongly enough about DU to actually mention it on air.

Their focus groups must be telling them no one gives a sh1t

cgcsb

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Do they have a partner on board, or has it not yet gone to tender? If they do, should it probably go back to tender anyway though?

No tenders yet, but I don't think it'd be difficult to find one.

hardy_buck

cgcsb wrote: »

The government does not need to spend €4bn in this budget in order to go ahead with DARTu. It'll be a PPP.

Perhaps I don't understand the concept of PPP's but how is a private party meant to make money on an investment like this? It's not like a motorway where they can charge tolls.. Won't Irish rail will be the ones selling tickets?
If so, its more of a loan than anything...

Regardless other posters have correctly pointed out time and time again that the electorate simply don't care for this project.

cgcsb

hardy_buck wrote: »

Perhaps I don't understand the concept of PPP's but how is a private party meant to make money on an investment like this? It's not like a motorway where they can charge tolls.. Won't Irish rail will be the ones selling tickets?
If so, its more of a loan than anything...

Regardless other posters have correctly pointed out time and time again that the electorate simply don't care for this project.

the PPP can be a deal to pay the private company X% of ticket sales for Y number of years or it can be a deal where by the capital is provided by a company and paid back by the state over a number of years or indeed a combination of the two.

hardy_buck

cgcsb wrote: »

the PPP can be a deal to pay the private company X% of ticket sales for Y number of years or it can be a deal where by the capital is provided by a company and paid back by the state over a number of years or indeed a combination of the two.

What are the rates like on the bond markets these days, is there a way they could do that?

Sam Russell

If they are serious about DU, they need to get EU money involved. If they could get MN and DU in the same deal, it would do a lot to solve the public transport need of Dublin for a decade or two.

Reuben1210

Sam Russell wrote: »

If they are serious about DU, they need to get EU money involved. If they could get MN and DU in the same deal, it would do a lot to solve the public transport need of Dublin for a decade or two.

That would be an amazing day!!

FreudianSlippers

Sam Russell wrote: »

If they are serious about DU, they need to get EU money involved. If they could get MN and DU in the same deal, it would do a lot to solve the public transport need of Dublin for a decade or two.

As far fetched an idea as it sounds, if we had a smart government, they would be beating down doors in the EU saying "we did what you asked; now we need money for infrastructure projects" and they would go with DU and MN as-is. I'm sure there would be some cost savings by doing both projects at the same time as well?

cgcsb

Has anyone seen this from Brian Hayes:

"THE development of a new water supply in the capital, the construction of the Dart underground and an upgrade of Dublin Airport have been placed on a Government wish-list, as it prepares to tap into a multi-billion euro EU war chest."

http://www.herald.ie/news/fg-mep-brian-hayes-says-we-need-to-act-fast-on-eu-fund-wishlist-31489230.html

crushproof

cgcsb wrote: »

Has anyone seen this from Brian Hayes:

"THE development of a new water supply in the capital, the construction of the Dart underground and an upgrade of Dublin Airport have been placed on a Government wish-list, as it prepares to tap into a multi-billion euro EU war chest."

http://www.herald.ie/news/fg-mep-brian-hayes-says-we-need-to-act-fast-on-eu-fund-wishlist-31489230.html

Wow.....must be a typo :pac:

munchkin_utd

hope that really is true.
The Dart underground really is the key missing piece of infrastructure in Ireland at this stage.

In Munich they built an almost identical link from 2 terminal stations east and west of the centre through the heart of the city, and completely underestimated how popular and useful and key to the development of the city it would be (so much that a second tunnel is now almost, maybe, going to be approved imminently).

If you look at Brussels, they have also such a link and you cant imagine the city without it.

anyhow, preaching to the converted here, but I do hope to god this gets approval sooner rather than later.

hardy_buck

munchkin_utd wrote: »

hope that really is true.
The Dart underground really is the key missing piece of infrastructure in Ireland at this stage.

In Munich they built an almost identical link from 2 terminal stations east and west of the centre through the heart of the city, and completely underestimated how popular and useful and key to the development of the city it would be (so much that a second tunnel is now almost, maybe, going to be approved imminently).

If you look at Brussels, they have also such a link and you cant imagine the city without it.

anyhow, preaching to the converted here, but I do hope to god this gets approval sooner rather than later.

Perhaps we might see the government push on with it in the hope that it forces the EU to throw some cash at it?
Perhaps I'm thinking too wishfully also...

Idbatterim

they only have 1.5 billion or so available for budget. Borrowing that way if its off balance sheet makes total sense, it will fast forward the recovery, lack of investment is hampering it and it going to draw things out far longer than needs be, if things continue this way. The quicker they can get construction back to a "sustainable level" a middle ground between the boom and the height of the recession, unemployment can be brought down to "full employment"....

Investment in housing, water infrastructure, rail etc is fantastic investment, as opposed to the simply lets give you a few euro extra welfare or tax cuts, that FF championed for over a decade, money up in smoke. the end result being the appalling infrastructure here...

cgcsb

I think there will be a change of attitude among the public, at least in Dublin anyway. In 2 years time we'll have the new luas, kildare trains operating to GCD, higher frequency DART thanks to ongoing works in the city centre section, and cycling facilities. We'll have a decent luas/DART/Commuter Rail service covering about 20% of the city, abysmal by international standards but enough for people to stop and say 'oh yes more of that please'.

The public need a taster of half decent public transport before they'll start demanding more of it when the TD comes knocking.

antoinolachtnai

There is certainly truth to that. The problem with DU is that it doesn't really allow for high frequency (as opposed to 'higher frequency' services) to the north west of the city because of the way it is set up. It is all constrained by level crossings in Dublin 4. If there were a link from the Clonsilla line to enter the DU tunnel it would make a lot more sense.

hardy_buck

Your probably right, I think we should just take what we can here though, at this stage building extra functionality into the project would probably Reduce the chances of this happening even more, planning etc.

Schadenfreudia

cgcsb wrote: »

Has anyone seen this from Brian Hayes:

"THE development of a new water supply in the capital, the construction of the Dart underground and an upgrade of Dublin Airport have been placed on a Government wish-list, as it prepares to tap into a multi-billion euro EU war chest."

http://www.herald.ie/news/fg-mep-brian-hayes-says-we-need-to-act-fast-on-eu-fund-wishlist-31489230.html

Interesting that Hayes seems to imply that the FG-led Government doesn't have a "coherent plan".

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is certainly truth to that. The problem with DU is that it doesn't really allow for high frequency (as opposed to 'higher frequency' services) to the north west of the city because of the way it is set up. It is all constrained by level crossings in Dublin 4. If there were a link from the Clonsilla line to enter the DU tunnel it would make a lot more sense.

I don't know about that - you could have a 10 minute frequency from Maynooth to Bray all day. If you wanted higher frequency on the north west section, you could run extras to Connolly or Grand Canal Dock thus creating a 5 minute frequency.

antoinolachtnai

Connolly isn't really an option. There is no interconnect with the line to south city.

Grand canal Dock would be very difficult. You would have to turn trains around in five or six minutes to have the platform free for the next train coming into the turnaround platform.

You'd also be blocking platform slots that would otherwise be used by the Trains from the northeast. You could terminate the northeastern services at Connolly, sure, but it would be a reduction in service for those commuters.

If you brought a train into the upstairs platforms at Pearse St every 2.5 minutes, with a significant proportion of those passengers changing to the trains in the basement, would the station handle it? It's potentially 800 passengers per train, every 2.5 minutes. 300 of them change to downstairs platform. That's 120 passengers per minute on average with a peak of 300 or 400 passengers wanting to get down the steps in one minute at the busiest times when two trains arrive at the upstairs platform together. Possible, sure, but you would need a lot of escalators.

The situation underground wouldn't be as bad but you'd need to make sure you had space to hold a few hundred passengers at times.

A lot of the design complexity would be avoided by having the flexibility to run services from Clonsilla to St Stephen's Green.

GerardKeating

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is certainly truth to that. The problem with DU is that it doesn't really allow for high frequency (as opposed to 'higher frequency' services) to the north west of the city because of the way it is set up. It is all constrained by level crossings in Dublin 4. If there were a link from the Clonsilla line to enter the DU tunnel it would make a lot more sense.

I think the is actually a single track cross over, but not for "operational" use.

It certainly should have been in the place, it would allow a more flexible service.

Carawaystick

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Grand canal Dock would be very difficult. You would have to turn trains around in five or six minutes to have the platform free for the next train coming into the turnaround platform.

I've regularly seen trains turn around in Pearse in the time it takes the driver to walk the length of the train.