DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer

As it is half the trains on the Maynooth/M3 line terminate at Connolly or Docklands so I am not sure that would be such a massive issue,

Trains can certainly easily be turned around in 4-5 minutes - that isn't an issue and already takes place.

Pearse already copes with a 5 minute frequency at peak times with ease, so I don't see it being that big an issue, particularly as that frequency will increase with the introduction of the 10 minute DART frequency.

antoinolachtnai

The 'turning' train has to wait for its place in the northbound schedule. Trains depart northbound from GCD every 10 minutes in our hypothetical train timetable, fitting into the 5-minute schedule for the service. You need to allow a couple of minutes, probably 5 minutes to wait for the gap in this schedule in addition to the time to make the train 'ready' (which could be under 90 seconds if you had an extra driver on the platform). That is the difficulty.

You can do it, sure, but your operations have to be really really tight.

Re Pearse: To run 5-minute services on the DART service I think the frequency on the loop line would have to go to around 20 tph in each direction (12 DARTs and 8 other trains). That would mean you would have a train at the upstairs platforms every 1.5 minutes. That is a lot, certainly, but the problem isn't the frequency. The problem is the proportion of people who will want to go to the underground platform to change trains.

Carawaystick

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Re Pearse: To run 5-minute services on the DART service I think the frequency on the loop line would have to go to around 20 tph in each direction (12 DARTs and 8 other trains).

Isn't that the resignalling target that's happening now anyway?

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The 'turning' train has to wait for its place in the northbound schedule. Trains depart northbound from GCD every 10 minutes in our hypothetical train timetable, fitting into the 5-minute schedule for the service. You need to allow a couple of minutes, probably 5 minutes to wait for the gap in this schedule in addition to the time to make the train 'ready' (which could be under 90 seconds if you had an extra driver on the platform). That is the difficulty.

You can do it, sure, but your operations have to be really really tight.

Re Pearse: To run 5-minute services on the DART service I think the frequency on the loop line would have to go to around 20 tph in each direction (12 DARTs and 8 other trains). That would mean you would have a train at the upstairs platforms every 1.5 minutes. That is a lot, certainly, but the problem isn't the frequency. The problem is the proportion of people who will want to go to the underground platform to change trains.

The current resignalling project will allow for up to 20 tph over the loop line from next year so I really don't see this being an issue.

It and the redesign of Grand Canal Dock will also facilitate much faster turnarounds than at present. Also you could "step up" drivers at peak times - in other words an incoming driver doesn't operate the next departure, but the one after that. This is standard practice across high frequency railway operations.

Therefore I don't see 5 minute turnarounds being an issue either.

Given that level of planned frequency, I am pretty sure that Pearse will be designed to cope with the crowds.

munchkin_utd

lxflyer wrote: »

<snip>
It and the redesign of Grand Canal Dock will also facilitate much faster turnarounds than at present. Also you could "step up" drivers at peak times - in other words an incoming driver doesn't operate the next departure, but the one after that. This is standard practice across high frequency railway operations.
<snip>

It'll be interesting to see how the rail drivers can justify a pay increase for the work changes (which is inivatible, seeing as they would hold the world to ransom otherwise) to work a rota that gives them more breaks and potentially less time actually working.

LXFlyer

munchkin_utd wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how the rail drivers can justify a pay increase for the work changes (which is inivatible, seeing as they would hold the world to ransom otherwise) to work a rota that gives them more breaks and potentially less time actually working.

I think you'll find that their current agreements already cover this, and it already has taken place at times.

Frankly sometimes the degree of negativity here is mind boggling.

hardy_buck

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you'll find that their current agreements already cover this, and it already has taken place at times.

Frankly sometimes the degree of negativity here is mind boggling.

In fairness it's not as if there has been no precedent for it before...

Idbatterim

It'll be interesting to see how the rail drivers can justify a pay increase for the work changes (which is inivatible, seeing as they would hold the world to ransom otherwise) to work a rota that gives them more breaks and potentially less time actually working.

it would be interesting then to see if CIE introduced pay cuts, sure if they are doing less work, isnt it only "fair" given that they look for more money every time there is more work or a change in practice :rolleyes:

Frankly sometimes the degree of negativity here is mind boggling.

I know what you are saying, but this cynicism doesnt come from nowhere...

LXFlyer

hardy_buck wrote: »

In fairness it's not as if there has been no precedent for it before...

Not for some considerable time - and no I certainly don't excuse what happened before, but to hear this chestnut raised every time here there's a suggestion of improvements gets a bit tiresome.

The public sector unions have done themselves no favours at times, but at the same time the amount of times I've heard people mention possible strikes as in this case or in the case of possible 24 hour bus operation when all of these practices are already agreed does get very tiresome and repetitive.

LXFlyer

Idbatterim wrote: »

it would be interesting then to see if CIE introduced pay cuts, sure if they are doing less work, isnt it only "fair" given that they look for more money every time there is more work or a change in practice :rolleyes:

Who's to say that they would be doing less work?

The current turnaround time could be the same as the turnaround time spent if they swapped sets. Remember frequency will be increasing.

hardy_buck

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/underground-dart-plan-sacrificed-for-other-capital-projects-31509205.html

Well there you have it folks, the sum of all fears, DU scrapped to be replaced by Airport Luas.
Face, meet my friend palm....

Idbatterim

Why not simply get worked started on Du and postpone mn etc...

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

Why not simply get worked started on Du and postpone mn etc...

that'd make sense, also we need the money to fill potholes in across vast swathes of Mayo.

FreudianSlippers

Idbatterim wrote: »

Why not simply get worked started on Du and postpone mn etc...

Sounds like we're not even getting MN; they're going to the ludicrous airport Luas idea.

Schadenfreudia

And not even the €150 million in CPO money to keep the project alive for some future date......? :mad:

Idbatterim

so these decisions are purely political then and even outside the hands of the minister for transport?

salmocab

Idbatterim wrote: »

so these decisions are purely political then and even outside the hands of the minister for transport?

every decision is political, all anyone who makes decisions cares about is the next election

Idbatterim

Im writing to Pascal Donohoe later, tell him there is a better way, if price is the only thing that matters. Build nothing, save several hundred million and don't get left with a joke, that is the best option for everyone IMO...

salmocab

Idbatterim wrote: »

Im writing to Pascal Donohoe later, tell him there is a better way, if price is the only thing that matters. Build nothing, save several hundred million and don't get left with a joke, that is the best option for everyone IMO...

he'd be happier with your vote

McAlban

You're better off writing to Clare Daly to be honest. (just got a little bit sick in my mouth) At least she'll moan about it. Lives in Swords and has a Strong Connection with the Airport being a former Siptu Shop Steward in Aer Lingus. And for an Inependent Leftie gets quite a bit of air time too.

Can't See James O'Reilly or Alan Farrell bothering to tackle the minister. They did get their Primary Care Centre after all.

murphaph

No comments yet under the article. Shows how much your average punter knows/cares about DU. We deserve (collectively) what we get. We as a people are easily distracted. Reinforces my decision to put down roots here in Germany. Ireland is too frustrating to live in for me.

My post assumes this article isn't made up. It is the Irish Independent.

Van.Bosch

murphaph wrote: »

My post assumes this article isn't made up. It is the Irish Independent.

With the mail last week (not my most reliable go to source) and the stories today in the times/indo i would guess this is some intentional leak of the info as they know it is a mess.

cgcsb

murphaph wrote: »

No comments yet under the article. Shows how much your average punter knows/cares about DU. We deserve (collectively) what we get. We as a people are easily distracted. Reinforces my decision to put down roots here in Germany. Ireland is too frustrating to live in for me.

My post assumes this article isn't made up. It is the Irish Independent.

I would have to agree, my temptation is to leave. Ireland is just so frustratingly backward and it doesn't seem to be improving. The backwardness permeates all segments of society. We stayed backwards in previous generations because emigration made the smart ones leave and the local parish pump politicos just divided up the remaining numpties along party lines with promises of filled potholes and more welfare/tax cuts, unfortunately Ireland seems to be going back that way.

No doubt most of the €4.5bn capital funding announced will be on 'rural schemes'. Dublin will see less than €0.5bn of it.

murphaph

Yep. Doesn't look good. Dublin losing even more ground to attractive European cities where people will want to come and live and work in. Google etc. won't find staff willing to move to Dublin in a few years and then the true cost of failing to invest in required infrastructure will become apparent (but it'll be blamed on some other factor).

Van.Bosch

cgcsb wrote: »

I would have to agree, my temptation is to leave. Ireland is just so frustratingly backward and it doesn't seem to be improving. The backwardness permeates all segments of society. We stayed backwards in previous generations because emigration made the smart ones leave and the local parish pump politicos just divided up the remaining numpties along party lines with promises of filled potholes and more welfare/tax cuts, unfortunately Ireland seems to be going back that way.

No doubt most of the €4.5bn capital funding announced will be on 'rural schemes'. Dublin will see less than €0.5bn of it.

The only solution is for Dublin to have its own political party as the TD's in the parties get beaten down by their colleagues, thats if they even bother to lobby for Dublin if its not in their part of dublin.someone from Dublin South might think sure a Luas to the airport is grand.

murphaph

Van.Bosch wrote: »

The only solution is for Dublin to have its own political party as the TD's in the parties get beaten down by their colleagues, thats if they even bother to lobby for Dublin if its not in their part of dublin.someone from Dublin South might think sure a Luas to the airport is grand.

Yep. Dubs are just as stupidly parochial as the rest of the populace. DU and MN would be seen by the average Knocklyon, Tallaght, Dun Laoighaire, Finglas or Beaumont resident as not being of any use to them.

Idbatterim

I'm going to forward the email that I just sent to Donohoe to Clare Daly now...

munchkin_utd

to be honest, when the Kildare-Phoenix Park Tunnel-Docklands plan was announced you knew the next step was the abandonment of the Dart underground.

And what votes are there for a 4billion underground rail project when people in Navan cant even organise some sort of a political push to get proper bus services to a town linked to Dublin by an uncongested Motorway and a 500million Tunnel direct to beside Busaras
(the 109 goes the back road to Dublin and sits in traffic instead between suburbs and the centre, for those who dont know. )

Theres no votes to be gained in public transport, and the powers that be know it.

Idbatterim

Theres no votes to be gained in public transport, and the powers that be know it.

munchkin_utd is online now Report Post

maybe I am incredibly naive, I get they want to maintain power, but could they not sometimes do the right thing and maintain power?

Politics is a game and the electorate are fickle and actually have a laughable understanding on a range of issues, so you re-secure power, give them what they want, then early in the term, do the not so popular stuff... Rinse and repeat...

he'd be happier with your vote

fg got it last time around, they probably wont get it this time. If FF put it back on the agenda, I'd consider voting for them, that's how massive this thing is IMO... FF did try to please everyone, part of the problem obviously, but if FG are simply going to siphon all the money out of Dublin, then I am done with them

McAlban

munchkin_utd wrote: »

to be honest, when the Kildare-Phoenix Park Tunnel-Docklands plan was announced you knew the next step was the abandonment of the Dart underground.

And what votes are there for a 4billion underground rail project when people in Navan cant even organise some sort of a political push to get proper bus services to a town linked to Dublin by an uncongested Motorway and a 500million Tunnel direct to beside Busaras
(the 109 goes the back road to Dublin and sits in traffic instead between suburbs and the centre, for those who dont know. )

Theres no votes to be gained in public transport, and the powers that be know it.

Well Meath on Track died a death. While I support WRC in principal, The Navan Rail line was always a more viable option and the Re-opening of Navan Junction should have been a major win for residents in Navan.