DART+ (DART Expansion)

Lenton Lane

Grandeeod wrote: »

So this is where we are at, as of 2015.

DU - floating around in various guises for over 40 years. I don't have the expenditure figures since its current variation surfaced nearly 15 years ago.

MN - 156 million quid later, its gone off the radar and we are about to enter the traditional, "let's do something else instead" phase in North Dublin that will take years to bring to the planning stage and trust me, it won't be built either.

I witnessed a lot of anger here today similar, but not as vicious, as the anger I have expressed here and on other threads/forums. I hope those who crossed my path in discussion, can appreciate how utterly despondent one can become with all this BS.

Sadly with no specific independent lobby group representing projects such as DU or MN and Public Transport projects in Dublin, the media do as they please and the politicians get away with talking crap and not being held accountable. Emailing TDs with a Joe Duffy type of complaint achieves nothing. I say that with the greatest respect for those who do so. But going head to head with them in the media is a far better option and keeps issues highlighted. In the noughties, it was easy, because they were promising everything. For example, even Irish Rails Barry Kenny insisted stuff would get done, despite an alternative view, backed up by legitimate facts, that it wouldn't.

But now is a time that a real alternative voice is needed.

Nail on head. Remember the DTTAS have not got any policy on Rail. When you consider that fact the pantomime over rails to Dublin Airport begins to make sense.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

It's very easy to be popular when you run a simple system of two lines, and which only requires the use of 47 trams each day out of a total fleet of 66 trams.

Actually I have to question your numbers here, where does the 47 come from?

Reading up on it, they have 66 trams in total:

26 Citadis 301 (3000 class - 40m)
14 Citadis 401 (4000 class - 40m)
26 Citadis 402 (5000 class - 43m)

The 26 5000 class were ordered in 2009, well into the recession, so clearly they wouldn't have ordered those unless they were actually needed!

They were put on the green line and the 4000 series cascaded onto the Red Line.

They have now placed an order for 10 new trams for Luas Cross City. Why would they order so many new trams if there are older ones sitting there unused?

Obviously you need to have some spear trams for when other are taken out for repairs. But I can't see them ordering 10 new ones if there were so many gonig unused.

Also given that they were able to upgrade the 3000 class from 30 meters to 40 meters shows excellent forward planning and utilisation by the RPA. Compare that to the disaster that the Irish Rail 8200 series DARTS were!

And just as I write this I see news on RTE that talks with the Irish Rail unions have broken down and they are yet again threatening strike!!!

No one both the public and government have lost all faith in Irish Rail.

BTW this all frustrates me, as I think Dart Underground is an extremely important project. But I believe as long as it is tarnished by the Irish Rail brand, it will never happen.

McAlban

Just to remind you all... The original plans for DART...

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

Also given that they were able to upgrade the 3000 class from 30 meters to 40 meters shows excellent forward planning and utilisation by the RPA. Compare that to the disaster that the Irish Rail 8200 series DARTS were!

That story is not as smooth as you would like to think.

Before the Red line opened for business with 30 metre trams, it was pointed out to the RPA that 40 metre trams would be more suited to the line. (The platforms were designed for them) Their answer was that the 30 metre trams would run more frequently and this would suffice. The RPA were challenged in the media about this and reacted in a very aggressive/defensive fashion, while completely failing to admit the obvious. Then, under the radar the extensions were ordered. It wasn't forward planning. It was a balls up that they didn't want to admit to and could easily fix because the unit was an off the shelf design.

Don't be under any allusions that the RPA are somehow superior to the CIE group. A lot of the luas team were ex CIE staff and the tram units were ordered before the creation of the RPA.

brownbeard

I reckon if Dublin had a directly elected mayor, he/she/it would be a lightening rod for flak about ditching projects like this. Transport infrastructure would be their greatest responsibility and they would have a remit and a mandate to fight for these kinds of projects as opposed to funds getting diverted to more rural, political causes.

Grandeeod

McAlban wrote: »

Just to remind you all... The original plans for DART...

I'm older than those plans!

McAlban

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm older than those plans!

And yet very little of it is acheived... Nice to see that Dart Phase 1 is now complete however, and even extended to Malahide and Greystones.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Actually I have to question your numbers here, where does the 47 come from?

Reading up on it, they have 66 trams in total:

26 Citadis 301 (3000 class - 40m)
14 Citadis 401 (4000 class - 40m)
26 Citadis 402 (5000 class - 43m)

The 26 5000 class were ordered in 2009, well into the recession, so clearly they wouldn't have ordered those unless they were actually needed!

They were put on the green line and the 4000 series cascaded onto the Red Line.

They have now placed an order for 10 new trams for Luas Cross City. Why would they order so many new trams if there are older ones sitting there unused?

Obviously you need to have some spear trams for when other are taken out for repairs. But I can't see them ordering 10 new ones if there were so many gonig unused.

Also given that they were able to upgrade the 3000 class from 30 meters to 40 meters shows excellent forward planning and utilisation by the RPA. Compare that to the disaster that the Irish Rail 8200 series DARTS were!

And just as I write this I see news on RTE that talks with the Irish Rail unions have broken down and they are yet again threatening strike!!!

No one both the public and government have lost all faith in Irish Rail.

BTW this all frustrates me, as I think Dart Underground is an extremely important project. But I believe as long as it is tarnished by the Irish Rail brand, it will never happen.

You can question my numbers all you like - I can assure you that there are only 47 trams in service on both lines - that's all that are required for the timetable and which are out in practice. Of course you will have maintenance spares on top of that , but there are still an awful lot of trams not being used each day.

I have no particular quibble with LUAS either way, they run a very efficient operation. I was merely making the point that they have made some questionable decisions too.

You also seem to ignore the fact that LUAS drivers are now threatening strike action:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/luas-drivers-plan-strikes-in-protest-over-wages-31478934.html

A little bit of balance would go a long way.

As I said it's very easy to run a simple 2 line tram operation which has no legacy issues from political interference over 60 years.

jd

Grandeeod wrote: »

Don't be under any allusions that the RPA are somehow superior to the CIE group. A lot of the luas team were ex CIE staff and the tram units were ordered before the creation of the RPA.

The RPA were originally the Light Rail Office in CIE, if my memory serves me.

Grandeeod

jd wrote: »

The RPA were originally the Light Rail Office in CIE, if my memory serves me.

Yes they were.

Grandeeod

McAlban wrote: »

And yet very little of it is acheived... Nice to see that Dart Phase 1 is now complete however, and even extended to Malahide and Greystones.

Im bored stiff mentioning it! As for Greystones? Lowry!

murphaph

brownbeard wrote: »

I reckon if Dublin had a directly elected mayor, he/she/it would be a lightening rod for flak about ditching projects like this. Transport infrastructure would be their greatest responsibility and they would have a remit and a mandate to fight for these kinds of projects as opposed to funds getting diverted to more rural, political causes.

Won't happen though. Why do you think Dail Eireann dismantled Dublin County Council? It was getting too powerful for the Dail's liking.

brownbeard

The latest move to have a directly elected mayor was supported by all Dublin cocos with the exception of Fingal, which probably shouldn't have been included anyway. I'm hoping (perhaps naively) the idea will be rekindled in the next term. I think (perhaps naively) the effect it would have on Dublin based transport infrastructure would be significant.

Cinephille1888

I'm so annoyed by this that I'm not sure if I can keep bashing out the words to express myself.

I will be writing emails to several people asap over this. I'm a student of planning and this kind of short sightedness is only going to make my job harder into the future.

Grandeeod

brownbeard wrote: »

The latest move to have a directly elected mayor was supported by all Dublin cocos with the exception of Fingal, which probably shouldn't have been included anyway. I'm hoping (perhaps naively) the idea will be rekindled in the next term. I think (perhaps naively) the effect it would have on Dublin based transport infrastructure would be significant.

A directly elected mayor needs a budget. So all taxes generated in the GDA should stay in the GDA. Yeah?

They'll be using candles for light, outside it within a year. That's what they forget. Dublins contribution, deserves a bigger share of the spoils. However, think about the amount of "rural" TDs in the Dail. In fact across every Dublin coco, you will have councillors and staff that are actually from outside of Dublin itself. I met an old lady today while experiencing local privately run public transport via the NTA. She lived in Dublin for 40 years. Worked in the civil service. Her loyalty? Came right back to where she was born and bred. Take that simple example to big decision making and Dublin hasn't a hope.

Grandeeod

Cinephille1888 wrote: »

I'm so annoyed by this that I'm not sure if I can keep bashing out the words to express myself.

I will be writing emails to several people asap over this. I'm a student of planning and this kind of short sightedness is only going to make my job harder into the future.

I feel for you being a student. Don't bother banging out emails to politicians. Absolute waste of time. Get organised into some sort of group and get some media presence.

syklops

McAlban wrote: »

Just to remind you all... The original plans for DART...

That, with a couple of tram, luas or otherwise lines connecting the lines perpendicularly would be miles ahead of what we have now.

Grandeeod

syklops wrote: »

That, with a couple of tram, luas or otherwise lines connecting the lines perpendicularly would be miles ahead of what we have now.

And it was proposed over 40 years ago!

No excuses. And our current Government should be reminded of it. Bit by bit, it could have been implemented.

Schadenfreudia

cgcsb wrote: »

It won't cost €4bn today or tomorrow, it only requires €200m next year to secure the CPOs. A fraction of the spending on the M17 between the great metropoli of Gort and Tuam. There are PLENTY of other uses for diesel locos.

Totally agree the €200 million (or €150 million) is vital - but characterising the M17/18 as simply joining two tiny towns is part of the attitude makes the rustics hostile to treating Dublin like a modern European city.

The rail link between Ennis and Galway is daft; the M17/M18 isn't and is a valuable contribution to keeping the West up to modern standards of access.

Let's be rational.

Don't let's fall for the "divide-and-conquer" strokes by the cynical gombeens in Leinster House.

I remember the eighties when if you were supported the DART you sneered at soggy boggy Knock Airport; and if you supported Knock you whined about the cost of electrifying a rail line with half its catchment area in the sea and spending all that money in Dublin.

We behaved as if those two tiny projects were an existential either/or. Politicians lined up on the issue according to geography.

Schadenfreudia

Deleted User wrote: »

If people are so for it in Dublin why not cancel the next march against water infrastructure and march for Dublin underground and Metro North instead.

More of the same bull - this is not "either/or". No wonder we end up with nothing!

Schadenfreudia

Grandeeod wrote: »

A directly elected mayor needs a budget. So all taxes generated in the GDA should stay in the GDA. Yeah?

They'll be using candles for light, outside it within a year. That's what they forget. Dublins contribution, deserves a bigger share of the spoils. However, think about the amount of "rural" TDs in the Dail. In fact across every Dublin coco, you will have councillors and staff that are actually from outside of Dublin itself. I met an old lady today while experiencing local privately run public transport via the NTA. She lived in Dublin for 40 years. Worked in the civil service. Her loyalty? Came right back to where she was born and bred. Take that simple example to big decision making and Dublin hasn't a hope.

You'll be happy to know that this post has been quoted in the M17/M18 thread

(Not by me I hasten to add...)

Illustrating my point....

jd

loyatemu wrote: »

Social Democrats in general would be worth trying to lobby - their existing representatives are all Dublin area based (and reasonably solid politicians). They don't seem to have much on Transport on their website - here's a policy for them.

They've come out with a statement,

http://us11.campaign-archive2.com/?u=98563bc2f53bc670a2442d07f&id=c520d0fb8a

Scrapping Dart Underground is Short-Sighted


Social Democrat TD Catherine Murphy has expressed disappointment at reports today that Government is set to scrap plans for the Dart underground in favour of other projects. Deputy Murphy has previously called the Dart Underground project a ‘game-changer’ in terms of public transport for the greater Dublin area.



Speaking today Catherine Murphy said:

“Ireland is among the very few developed nations where urban underground high capacity rail has not been attempted as a solution to congestion. Dublin is one of the few largest cities in the world without an underground. The absence of such a transport network in a city as big as Dublin means people are forced to rely on cars. This means our emissions targets look increasingly unachievable – a problem that will cost us financially in terms of fines; the cost of congestion to both individuals and businesses continues to rise; the accident rates increase – it’s a fact that most accidents happen during rush-hour; and simply put, a major international capital city without a proper underground system is ludicrous.”



“The Dart underground would represent a key piece of infrastructure for foreign direct investment. It is no secret that large multi-nationals factor in the livability of a city when making location decisions and easy access to and from the airport is critical in those decisions. The Dart underground would connect a series of rail lines and a Luas line to create a transport network befitting an International capital city.”



“This is yet another example of this Government’s short-term approach that takes no account of the longer-term requirements which would ensure our country could compete on an international level into the future and Government need to justify the rationale for such a decision.”

Idbatterim

I received a reply from Clare Daly, agreeing with our sentiments... I will email local FF candidates and see what their opinion is, if they tried to get it back on the agenda, it creates competition...

They are spineless here, it doesnt take much to get them to back down, we just need a platform. A call to Joe Duffy is usally enough to send shivers up their spine. The issue here is we dont have the media on our side... We dont have the mayor or media doing it though... So contacting TD's etc seems to be first step, they may even be aware of peoples disgust by viewing threads like these. If contacting TD's etc doesnt come to anything. I would be prepared to go down the protest route, about DU and MN, but the appalling mismanagement of everything here, the economy, planning, it has a massive impact on peoples lives and having total gombeens ruining this country! Its gone to far this time IMO. They can borrow the money for nothing provide a stimulus the country needs, start addressing our infrastructure deficit, improve competitiveness etc etc etc...

Schadenfreudia

Idbatterim wrote: »

I received a reply from Clare Daly, agreeing with our sentiments... I will email local FF candidates and see what their opinion is, if they tried to get it back on the agenda, it creates competition...

Don't tell her that I'll abandon a lifetime of consistent principles and vote for FG if they simply go ahead with DU!

(My vote can be bought - but not cheaply..)

McAlban

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Don't tell her that I'll abandon a lifetime of consistent principles and vote for FG if they simply go ahead with DU!

(My vote can be bought - but not cheaply..)

Mine too... for about €5 Billion.

She lives down the Road from my girlfriend. Might just print this thread off and pop it in her letterbox.

Idbatterim

Don't tell her that I'll abandon a lifetime of consistent principles and vote for FG if they simply go ahead with DU!

(My vote can be bought - but not cheaply..)

I agree, I would take DU or MN over a few euro in my back pocket, dont think we are in the majority unfortunately! Dublin being screwed repeatedly, to fund insane road building budgets all over the country so everywhere, gets their "fair share" other than dublin is not on...

Leonard Hofstadter

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree, I would take DU or MN over a few euro in my back pocket, dont think we are in the majority unfortunately! Dublin being screwed repeatedly, to fund insane road building budgets all over the country so everywhere, gets their "fair share" other than dublin is not on...

I'm sorry, but with the greatest respect, you're totally wrong on the roads projects outside of Dublin - they are BADLY needed. It's not doing something to keep the country bumpkins happy - they're absolutely essential to give the other parts of the country some chance of being able to contribute to economic growth rather than Dublin subsidising them all the time. Have you tried driving from Cork to Limerick recently? Or Galway to Gort? Or Galway to Tuam?

I do agree that the Government's proposals for an Airport Luas link are totally and utterly wrong, but don't go blaming those of us 'down the country' for that - they could have for instance chosen to build a spur off the Dublin-Belfast line (and would probably cost less money) to the Airport if they wanted to, but didn't. That's what I would favour, Dublin Airport deserves a proper heavy rail connection to the city centre and beyond. Integrated transport is something that simply doesn't exist anywhere in Ireland, and the Airport Luas shambles is yet another example of this.

Schadenfreudia

captainspeed wrote: »

I'm sorry, but with the greatest respect, you're totally wrong on the roads projects outside of Dublin - they are BADLY needed. It's not doing something to keep the country bumpkins happy - they're absolutely essential to give the other parts of the country some chance of being able to contribute to economic growth rather than Dublin subsidising them all the time. Have you tried driving from Cork to Limerick recently? Or Galway to Gort? Or Galway to Tuam?

Agree 100%

I do agree that the Government's proposals for an Airport Luas link are totally and utterly wrong, but don't go blaming those of us 'down the country' for that - they could have for instance chosen to build a spur off the Dublin-Belfast line (and would probably cost less money) to the Airport if they wanted to, but didn't. That's what I would favour, Dublin Airport deserves a proper heavy rail connection to the city centre and beyond. Integrated transport is something that simply doesn't exist anywhere in Ireland, and the Airport Luas shambles is yet another example of this.

Agree 90%!

I'd rather they spent any money available securing the CPOs for DU rather than let the whole project return to ground zero on September 24th.

Luas - Airport is worse than useless except as a local tram and the Clongriffen spur will only work as a temporary measure until DU is built and only addresses the Airport connection rather that citywide integration.

Nichard Dixon

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree, I would take DU or MN over a few euro in my back pocket, dont think we are in the majority unfortunately! Dublin being screwed repeatedly, to fund insane road building budgets all over the country so everywhere, gets their "fair share" other than dublin is not on...

One reason why the politicians are able to get away with this kind of thing is that even comment among those interested is equally self serving rather than putting forward proper principles for planning. There are few, if any, "insane" road projects in Ireland, which has not seen adequate road investment over the years. The problem is short sighted planning and a state where people want to avoid paying for things rather than investing in them, not "them v us".

spillit67

Going to write to some journalists and broadcasters with links to specific posts ect. Suggest others do the same, it's time there was an actual conversation over this in the media rather than the Govt putting out public statements with the semi state bodies curled up in a corner not speaking out.