DART+ (DART Expansion)

Idbatterim

I'm sorry, but with the greatest respect, you're totally wrong on the roads projects outside of Dublin - they are BADLY needed. It's not doing something to keep the country bumpkins happy - they're absolutely essential to give the other parts of the country some chance of being able to contribute to economic growth rather than Dublin subsidising them all the time. Have you tried driving from Cork to Limerick recently? Or Galway to Gort? Or Galway to Tuam?

I have not driven cork to limerick. But i have driven dublin to athlone, galway, waterford, cork etc. The main national routes from Dublin to the other "cities" are now fantastic and some have very low levels of traffic on them, parts of M3 and M9, the girlfriend is from the uk and cant believe how quiet some of these motorways are. Now this overcapacity on certain routes, is probably a good thing, as it majorly future proofs them... But the road v rail investment for the past decade in particular and I am sure in decades gone by, has been off the wall in terms of ratio, in terms of road v rail...

are they needed more badly than metro north or DU? these schemes would benefit an incomparable number of people and I'm sure the cost benefit analysis is a multiple of the road schemes...

A few things on growth outside of Dublin, anyone who thinks Facebook, LinkedIn, google or whoever are going to locate their european head office's in in Cork, Limerick or wherever are off their rocker... they wont and for a number of reasons...

I think the country needs to take a long deep look at itself and decide where we want to be in 10-20 years. In my opinion, the belfast, cork and maybe other lines to dublin should be electrified, extend dart, build DU. Endless road building at the expense of rail, is simply unsustainable and short sighted... Other countries realised this decades ago. If our planners and politicians havent, maybe its time they visit our european neighbours, they are being paid more than bloody enough and we are a rich country, who can borrow for as good as nothing, what is the problem?

red bull

Apple Goes to Athenry ??????????????

Idbatterim

is it worth contacting dublin airport, would they have an opinion on it? Their massive landbank value would surely be influenced largely depending on what option goes ahead. I can see how they may lose money on carparking. Its so hard to know who holds what view and based on what information, facts, speculation etc...

Cinephille1888

Grandeeod wrote: »

I feel for you being a student. Don't bother banging out emails to politicians. Absolute waste of time. Get organised into some sort of group and get some media presence.

I've found emails is one of the few ways to get TDs to listen, a hand written letter has even got me a tour of the Dail in the past.

I will try and be vocal about this any way I can, and I recommend everyone does.

The press coverage is appalling and few people ever discuss it honestly or with experts. Calling Joe Duffy may not be out of the question.

They're further selling our future out with inadequate decisions that cost all of us. Without DARTu in the SDZ of the North Lotts/ Docklands the case for any signature towers on the limited sites is diminished. As it stands the Red Line Luas could only service buildings meeting the planed and existing heights and densities, and no outlier buildings. It looks like Central Bank /Anglo Skeleton will be the only stand out building in the area for years to come.


The planned Line D2 (Phase 1) is already being jeered at with inaccurate claims of "tunnelling under" Glasnevin cemetery. When journalists say it like this they are trying to stir controversy that somehow a tunnel in excess of 30m below 6ft graves will cause subsidence and sully their honour. It's hackery and dishonest, and they should know better. :rolleyes:

But it is the Irish Media's hobby horse to flog controversy when it comes to Public transport rather than a substantial debate about Access/ Mobility, Economic benefit, Social Good, Environmental /Sustainable, the only choice against congestion etc etc:mad:

Leonard Hofstadter

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Agree 100%



Agree 90%!

I'd rather they spent any money available securing the CPOs for DU rather than let the whole project return to ground zero on September 24th.

Luas - Airport is worse than useless except as a local tram and the Clongriffen spur will only work as a temporary measure until DU is built and only addresses the Airport connection rather that citywide integration.

Absolutely, Luas-Airport is utter crap. I totally agree that whatever money needs to be spent on trying to keep DU alive should be done. I wouldn't see it as an immediate priority (there's so many roads that need doing first), but longer term it absolutely does need to be done. In fairness, the attitude towards rail in Ireland is pathetic, we do everything badly, I'd nearly say things are done badly on purpose so that no money is spent on rail (e.g. Western Rail Corridor - another fine waste which even Irish Rail said was a waste and now it means nothing will ever be done on heavy rail). There is only a certain amount of money but I would say keeping DU alive and an Airport spur would be fine for Dublin (for now). It would actually be better not to spend the money on Luas and spend it outside of Dublin (or just not spend it at all and pay off the national debt), it's waste on the scale that would make FF blush with embarrassment.

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

It won't cost €4bn today or tomorrow, it only requires €200m next year to secure the CPOs. A fraction of the spending on the M17 between the great metropoli of Gort and Tuam. There are PLENTY of other uses for diesel locos.

Gort nor Tuam may neither be major metropoli but those two towns are merely arbitrary destinations for two much needed motorways. A motorway project was constructed between Castletown and Nenagh, is this a major national priority? Gort-M6 is one of the busiest sections of the N18 road and is well overdue, and the M6-Tuam section of N17 is currently well below the needed standard. Sure we all wish both motorways linked closer to Galway but there was only so much money going to be given to the two projects (now linked as one in M17/M18) and the further away from Galway they are built the cheaper they would be. Anyone can waffle on about public transport but every man and his dog knows that all the major areas in Ireland need to be linked by road first (plenty of major areas in Ireland have well substandard road links eg Cork-Limerick, Limerick-Waterford, Killarney-Tralee)

Those of us in Cork would die for the funding the N18 road has got over the last few years considering how little finding the N20 upgrade has got. This country is far too Dublin centred, hence the continual need to upgrade all of the major roads out of Dublin. Construction of the M17/M18/M20 and economic decentralisation is only beneficial for this country going forward.

Amirani

red bull wrote: »

Apple Goes to Athenry ??????????????

With a data centre...

Idbatterim

Amirani wrote: »

With a data centre...

Exactly, I said with European headquarters...

GerardKeating

Idbatterim wrote: »

Exactly, I said with European headquarters...

Once constructed, it will have 20/30 employees at most..

Leonard Hofstadter

People are really showing their ignorance of Galway's needs if they think the Gort to Tuam motorway isn't needed or is 'too fancy'. I can only assume they've never been in Galway let alone driven on either the N17 or N18, because if you knew anything about Galway and the commuting patterns, you'd know how busy the existing roads are and how badly needed this is. And before anyone says it, yes the city bypass is also badly needed for Galway.

FreudianSlippers

Amirani wrote: »

With a data centre...

A data centre that still needs workers to build it and power/water to supply it. Just because there aren't going to be hundreds employed there long-term doesn't mean it isn't a huge benefit to the area/country*.


(*so long as our government enforces current tax laws)

BoatMad

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

A data centre that still needs workers to build it and power/water to supply it. Just because there aren't going to be hundreds employed there long-term doesn't mean it isn't a huge benefit to the area/country.

There will be a tiny benefit that's all. The building is cheap, the systems are now containerised so no technical work is done locally. It's being built there because it's cheap and in the middle of nowhere.

BoatMad

captainspeed wrote: »

People are really showing their ignorance of Galway's needs if they think the Gort to Tuam motorway isn't needed or is 'too fancy'. I can only assume they've never been in Galway let alone driven on either the N17 or N18, because if you knew anything about Galway and the commuting patterns, you'd know how busy the existing roads are and how badly needed this is. And before anyone says it, yes the city bypass is also badly needed for Galway.

I've driven extensively around Galway. Yes some roads need attention. But the motorway is a folly

cgcsb

brownbeard wrote: »

I reckon if Dublin had a directly elected mayor, he/she/it would be a lightening rod for flak about ditching projects like this. Transport infrastructure would be their greatest responsibility and they would have a remit and a mandate to fight for these kinds of projects as opposed to funds getting diverted to more rural, political causes.

We almost had one but Fingal County Council voted against it, not enough brown envelops and inflation proof pensions to be had.

A directly elected mayor would bring accountability, that's a dirty word.

BoatMad

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree, I would take DU or MN over a few euro in my back pocket, dont think we are in the majority unfortunately! Dublin being screwed repeatedly, to fund insane road building budgets all over the country so everywhere, gets their "fair share" other than dublin is not on...

I'm not surprised DU has been finally cancelled. LUAS is more popular politically. No one likes irish rail period.

Anyway the park tunnel with centre city re signalling , could achieve a significant proportion of what DU would achieve. DU was also fatally wounded by LUAS Connolly to Hueston links. IR were disingenuous in down playing the park tunnel over the years cause it rained on DU.

IR would be far better concentrating on fixing and promoting the existing heavy rail system , especially outside Dub Cork. They'd be better leaving off from the " glamour projects " IR have been dismal at convincing Gov to expand the network. The only recent expansion, was one they never wanted.

( maybe if IR had argued against DU, they'd have got it, there's an idea )

I suspect we will get a heavy rail connection to the airport though.

We do need more roads cancelling M20 was very shortsighted

Rip DU.

cgcsb

McAlban wrote: »

And yet very little of it is acheived... Nice to see that Dart Phase 1 is now complete however, and even extended to Malahide and Greystones.

Even that came up against sterling opposition from from the indo, they insisted the government should buy us all cars instead.

cgcsb

With new office complexes being planned for DUB and a new runway, most likely a third terminal, we'll probably be looking at 40 million passengers by the middle of the century, not to mention airport staff and the office workers. Can a 40 min journey on a luas to town be sufficient? assuming anyone can get on, it'll probably be crush loaded from Swords anyway, much like trying to get on at Ranelagh in the mornings now.

BoatMad

cgcsb wrote: »

With new office complexes being planned for DUB and a new runway, most likely a third terminal, we'll probably be looking at 40 million passengers by the middle of the century, not to mention airport staff and the office workers. Can a 40 min journey on a luas to town be sufficient? assuming anyone can get on, it'll probably be crush loaded from Swords anyway, much like trying to get on at Ranelagh in the mornings now.

I suspect that DA will get a heavy rail link,isn't that what was proposed recently

cgcsb

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Totally agree the €200 million (or €150 million) is vital - but characterising the M17/18 as simply joining two tiny towns is part of the attitude makes the rustics hostile to treating Dublin like a modern European city.

The rail link between Ennis and Galway is daft; the M17/M18 isn't and is a valuable contribution to keeping the West up to modern standards of access.

Let's be rational.

Don't let's fall for the "divide-and-conquer" strokes by the cynical gombeens in Leinster House.

I remember the eighties when if you were supported the DART you sneered at soggy boggy Knock Airport; and if you supported Knock you whined about the cost of electrifying a rail line with half its catchment area in the sea and spending all that money in Dublin.

We behaved as if those two tiny projects were an existential either/or. Politicians lined up on the issue according to geography.

The M17/M18 is in an area of declining population, it'll likely never reach it's design capacity, especially north of Athenry.

Roads can be improved without building a full spec motorway.

BoatMad

cgcsb wrote: »

Even that came up against sterling opposition from from the indo, they insisted the government should buy us all cars instead.

I'd vote for that

cgcsb

captainspeed wrote: »

People are really showing their ignorance of Galway's needs if they think the Gort to Tuam motorway isn't needed or is 'too fancy'. I can only assume they've never been in Galway let alone driven on either the N17 or N18, because if you knew anything about Galway and the commuting patterns, you'd know how busy the existing roads are and how badly needed this is. And before anyone says it, yes the city bypass is also badly needed for Galway.

It's not 'badly needed' roads can be upgraded without building a full spec motorway that'll never reach it's design capacity. There a much cheaper options for upgrading that road that'll ensure enough capacity for generations. It's an area of declining population.

The Galway bypass is way too expensive, over half a billion to bypass a town of 75k. Would ya stop. Build some BRT routes through Galway, some park 'n' rides and ban cars from the centre, a permanent sustainable solution for a fraction of the price.

Mahogany Gaspipe

BoatMad wrote: »

I've driven extensively around Galway. Yes some roads need attention. But the motorway is a folly

It took me 35 minutes to travel from south of Kilcolgan to north of Clarenbridge (N18) last Saturday, a journey of approximately 3 miles.

Is that to be expected on a national road?

Van.Bosch

cgcsb wrote: »

With new office complexes being planned for DUB and a new runway, most likely a third terminal, we'll probably be looking at 40 million passengers by the middle of the century, not to mention airport staff and the office workers. Can a 40 min journey on a luas to town be sufficient? assuming anyone can get on, it'll probably be crush loaded from Swords anyway, much like trying to get on at Ranelagh in the mornings now.

Im all for DU and MN and would even support the DART spur also but talk of 40 mln passengers for DUB is way off.

Mahogany Gaspipe

cgcsb wrote: »

It's not 'badly needed' roads can be upgraded without building a full spec motorway that'll never reach it's design capacity. There a much cheaper options for upgrading that road that'll ensure enough capacity for generations. It's an area of declining population.

Source?

McAlban

DAA said yestereday that the Airport "City" was a 30-40 year project (on the same day Luas Airport was floated).

Heavy Rail upgrades outside the cities is USELESS unless people can move around those cities when they get there. e.g. What's the point of building a High Speed Network from Connolly-Belfast and Heuston to Cork if it takes longer to get across Dublin City?! HSR Could open up the West (even more than the motorway network). And Yes I have driven it, A decent or dare I say it High Speed Cork-Limerick rail could help reduce congestion on the N20. A decent Commuter Service (as planned) from Tuam to Galway also could impact on the N17. However the Road Lobby won on that front too.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We need a holistic view of Infrastructure in this Country, The Roads Lobby won out during the Tiger and we have a generally good (and World Class in places) motorway system that was extended by 100's of Km in a relatively short time. Would you Call the M20 a "Glamour Project" or the Slane By-Pass? DU and MN and Dart "Phase 2" were not glamour projects, they were vital infrastructure projects designed to meet specific issues that experts in planning, economics and infrastrucuture agreed were the correct solutions.

cgcsb

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Im all for DU and MN and would even support the DART spur also but talk of 40 mln passengers for DUB is way off.

The middle of the century is a long way off yes.

brownbeard

There were 21.7m passengers in 2014. Assuming a modest 3% growth (numbers are up 15% in the first 6 months of this year) We’d reach 40m passengers in 2035.

markpb

Mahogany Gaspipe wrote: »

It took me 35 minutes to travel from south of Kilcolgan to north of Clarenbridge (N18) last Saturday, a journey of approximately 3 miles.

Is that to be expected on a national road?

Motorways are built to solve a very specific problem: when dual carriageways cannot handle the vehicle demand. Dual carriageways are built to solve a very specific problem: when single carriageways cannot handle vehicle demand. Your section of the N18 has a peak demand of 1,410 in the morning and 1,601 in the evening (both in March 2015).

A 120kph dual carriageway would carry between 2,000 and 3,000 vehicles per hour which is more than enough for the N18 and enough room to grow as well, if needed. Motorways are overkill in most places and won't benefit motorists at all. They do, however, cost an awful lot more to build and maintain.

Wasting money building motorways because people have the mistaken impression that they need one or because politicians think that a motorway is more valuable than opening a dual carriageway (in terms of vote winning) is crazy when, at the same time, we're proposing to take the cheap option when it comes to building public transport through Dublin to the airport and Swords.

Edit: FWIW I also disagreed with the building of the M3 because it wasn't necessary either.

moyners

Idbatterim wrote: »

A few things on growth outside of Dublin, anyone who thinks Facebook, LinkedIn, google or whoever are going to locate their european head office's in in Cork, Limerick or wherever are off their rocker... they wont and for a number of reasons...

Bit OT here but Apple, Pfizer, EMC and VMWARE all have European headquarters in Cork, Amazon has a customer service centre in Cork. Tyco is moving its global headquarters to Cork.

Galway has a large medical devices cluster, etc.

There is life outside of Dublin :rolleyes:

Mahogany Gaspipe

markpb wrote: »

Motorways are built to solve a very specific problem: when dual carriageways cannot handle the vehicle demand. Dual carriageways are built to solve a very specific problem: when single carriageways cannot handle vehicle demand. Your section of the N18 has a peak demand of 1,410 in the morning and 1,601 in the evening (both in March 2015).

A 120kph dual carriageway would carry between 2,000 and 3,000 vehicles per hour which is more than enough for the N18 and enough room to grow as well, if needed. Motorways are overkill in most places and won't benefit motorists at all. They do, however, cost an awful lot more to build and maintain.

Wasting money building motorways because people have the mistaken impression that they need one or because politicians think that a motorway is more valuable than opening a dual carriageway (in terms of vote winning) is crazy when, at the same time, we're proposing to take the cheap option when it comes to building public transport through Dublin to the airport and Swords.

So, and this isn't a loaded question, the data shows that a dual carriageway is currently needed. So, for now, do we just built dual carriageways to bypass all the towns between Limerick and Galway. And then two decades after it becomes apparent that solution isn't fit for purpose we then built a motorway joining those two Cities?

I spend my time equally between Dublin City Centre and the Galway. Sure infrastructure in Dublin serves greater numbers of people but there is a lack of understanding and very little acknowledgement of the actual infrastructural needs of communities in the west. A lot of the opinion in this tread shows that and some are clearly unfounded and are based on nonsensical claims, that's not directed towards yourself. One poster even bizarrely claiming that the area is declining in population!