DART+ (DART Expansion)

alias no.9

BoatMad wrote: »

I'm not surprised DU has been finally cancelled. LUAS is more popular politically. No one likes irish rail period.

Anyway the park tunnel with centre city re signalling , could achieve a significant proportion of what DU would achieve. DU was also fatally wounded by LUAS Connolly to Hueston links. IR were disingenuous in down playing the park tunnel over the years cause it rained on DU.

The PPT does very little of what DU was intended to do.

DU would have created a high speed, high capacity backbone for rail services, enabling
- Massive increase in services on the Kildare through Balbriggan line, there's lots of green and brownfield sites along these routes suitable for high density residential development with excellent access to the city center without adding to the congestion on the roads
- Removal of northern line Darts from Connolly would have expanded capacity on the Maynooth to Greystones line with re signalling in the city center adding more and added Inter City capacity out of Connolly
- Taking the existing commuter services out of Heuston would have opened up capacity in the station and through the pinch point between Inchicore and Heuston enabling more Intercity Capacity

Reopening the PPT will
- Divide the existing commuter services on the Kildare line, adding no capacity there and pissing people off by having every second train going to a different station
-Consume capacity from the Maynooth line
-Add nothing for the either end of the existing Dart line
-Do nothing to expand the capacity for adding additional Inter City services out of either Heuston or Connolly.

Sam Russell

alias no.9 wrote: »

Reopening the PPT will
- Divide the existing commuter services on the Kildare line, adding no capacity there and pissing people off by having every second train going to a different station
-Consume capacity from the Maynooth line
-Add nothing for the either end of the existing Dart line
-Do nothing to expand the capacity for adding additional Inter City services out of either Heuston or Connolly.

Have you ever been to Waterloo staion in London where hundreds and hundreds of passengers stand in front of the huge destination board to watch for their next train going to their station as it varies depending on the particular minute they arrive at the station. Most railways are not like the Dart where all trains between Bray and Howth Junction stop at every station - not even the 'fast Dart' which skips underused station.

BoatMad

alias no.9 wrote: »

The PPT does very little of what DU was intended to do.

DU would have created a high speed, high capacity backbone for rail services, enabling
- Massive increase in services on the Kildare through Balbriggan line, there's lots of green and brownfield sites along these routes suitable for high density residential development with excellent access to the city center without adding to the congestion on the roads
- Removal of northern line Darts from Connolly would have expanded capacity on the Maynooth to Greystones line with re signalling in the city center adding more and added Inter City capacity out of Connolly
- Taking the existing commuter services out of Heuston would have opened up capacity in the station and through the pinch point between Inchicore and Heuston enabling more Intercity Capacity

Reopening the PPT will
- Divide the existing commuter services on the Kildare line, adding no capacity there and pissing people off by having every second train going to a different station
-Consume capacity from the Maynooth line
-Add nothing for the either end of the existing Dart line
-Do nothing to expand the capacity for adding additional Inter City services out of either Heuston or Connolly.

I'm not sure " massive increases " in services is what needed. Certainly there are pinch points. But incrementally PPT will aid in providing services with commuter trains now terminating at grand canal dock.

The rise in low hours working , contract over full time and other " improvements" is going to change conventional commuting patterns, possibly having more people travelling but spread over a greater part of the day. I suspect we will see more 20 hour time tabling and better use of track resources now that freight no longer takes up any paths.

I didn't buy into many of the completely unsubstantiated claims made for DU. Too much " grass is greener " eulogy style thinking. Expanding intercity rail has dubious financials in Ireland and IR is not a great company to run a railway

The loop line will remain a bottleneck. But improved signalling will help as would moving block type signalling aka parts of London Underground. Again with the concentration in IR of a small number of fixed train sets. This is entirely feasible.

Idbatterim

Bit OT here but Apple, Pfizer, EMC and VMWARE all have European headquarters in Cork, Amazon has a customer service centre in Cork. Tyco is moving its global headquarters to Cork.

Galway has a large medical devices cluster, etc.

There is life outside of Dublin

I am assuming Apple have been based in Cork a long time then? I should say, I mean the relatively recent software giants, probably wouldnt be looking at anywhere in Ireland, other than Dublin...

BoatMad

brownbeard wrote: »

There were 21.7m passengers in 2014. Assuming a modest 3% growth (numbers are up 15% in the first 6 months of this year) We’d reach 40m passengers in 2035.

That's assuming demand and capacity keeps place. Ultimately there is a ceiling

Van.Bosch

cgcsb wrote: »

The middle of the century is a long way off yes.

I'm not saying I disagree but if we're dealing with people building a luas which will not have enough capacity for Day 1, 40 years down the line prob doesn't even come on their radar.

BoatMad

McAlban wrote: »

DAA said yestereday that the Airport "City" was a 30-40 year project (on the same day Luas Airport was floated).

Heavy Rail upgrades outside the cities is USELESS unless people can move around those cities when they get there. e.g. What's the point of building a High Speed Network from Connolly-Belfast and Heuston to Cork if it takes longer to get across Dublin City?! HSR Could open up the West (even more than the motorway network). And Yes I have driven it, A decent or dare I say it High Speed Cork-Limerick rail could help reduce congestion on the N20. A decent Commuter Service (as planned) from Tuam to Galway also could impact on the N17. However the Road Lobby won on that front too.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We need a holistic view of Infrastructure in this Country, The Roads Lobby won out during the Tiger and we have a generally good (and World Class in places) motorway system that was extended by 100's of Km in a relatively short time. Would you Call the M20 a "Glamour Project" or the Slane By-Pass? DU and MN and Dart "Phase 2" were not glamour projects, they were vital infrastructure projects designed to meet specific issues that experts in planning, economics and infrastrucuture agreed were the correct solutions.

There is NO evidence that intercity as opposed to commuter rail has any future in this country. Running trains in excess of 100 mph is unnecessary, expensive and actually counter productive

Hence the HSR argument is nonsense give the traffic movements! uncluttered motorways and density spread of the population.

Road and rail investment is not a zero sum game, roads are needed because 95% of people use them. Rail must justified on its own, unlike say WRC which just exploited " not in Dublin "

Rail programmes, especially in Ireland are very difficult to justify outside large commuter areas. Roads on the other hand are a life blood to a nation.

You cannot project the thinking of a 19th century transport mechanism into the 21st. In the next 2 decades we will see a large increase in electric cars, leading to further congestion, as people discover the cheap cost of its fuel. We must therefor plan our road building, especially in and around the capital to ensure that these needs and trends are catered for

brownbeard

BoatMad wrote: »

That's assuming demand and capacity keeps place. Ultimately there is a ceiling

The demand is inherent to the 3% assumption. Dublin Airport's current capacity is 35m, with talk of new runways, control towers etc, I don't think the extra 5m in capacity is much of a reach.

Carawaystick

markpb wrote: »

A 120kph dual carriageway would carry between 2,000 and 3,000 vehicles per hour
...
They do, however, cost an awful lot more to build and maintain.

The only difference here between a 120kmh dual carriageway and a motorway is blue signs. And no bikes or pedestrians allowed on a motorway.

alias no.9

BoatMad wrote: »

I'm not sure " massive increases " in services is what needed. Certainly there are pinch points. But incrementally PPT will aid in providing services with commuter trains now terminating at grand canal dock.

The capacity on the loop line to provide this service is at the expense of the provision of other services. The announcements to date have not indicated that there will be any additional services on the Kildare line, just the diversion of existing trains, there will in effect be two separate services on the Kildare line each running at half of the frequency of the existing service.

BoatMad

brownbeard wrote: »

The demand is inherent to the 3% assumption. Dublin Airport's current capacity is 35m, with talk of new runways, control towers etc, I don't think the extra 5m in capacity is much of a reach.

A lot of that capacity doesn't actually cone out the front doors. Today the public transport infrastructure at the airport " sorta works " LUAS will at very least add " some " capacity. Personally I think it's more likely a heavy rail link will be added to the existing mainline

BoatMad

alias no.9 wrote: »

The capacity on the loop line to provide this service is at the expense of the provision of other services. The announcements to date have not indicated that there will be any additional services on the Kildare line, just the diversion of existing trains, there will in effect be two separate services on the Kildare line each running at half of the frequency of the existing service.

Adding existing services will not happen till the signalling project is completed and the stated capacity extension actually appears ( I remain dubious ). I've no doubt that if the demand is there ,services will be added , IR is severely constrained by the availability of rolling stock too.

Sam Russell

alias no.9 wrote: »

The capacity on the loop line to provide this service is at the expense of the provision of other services. The announcements to date have not indicated that there will be any additional services on the Kildare line, just the diversion of existing trains, there will in effect be two separate services on the Kildare line each running at half of the frequency of the existing service.

Persuade your neighbours and friends to use the services from Kildare and - who knows - IR may increase the frequency and train length of the services to cope. If no extra passengers appear to use the services, how can you justify more trains?

Muahahaha

cgcsb wrote: »

With new office complexes being planned for DUB and a new runway, most likely a third terminal, we'll probably be looking at 40 million passengers by the middle of the century, not to mention airport staff and the office workers. Can a 40 min journey on a luas to town be sufficient? assuming anyone can get on, it'll probably be crush loaded from Swords anyway, much like trying to get on at Ranelagh in the mornings now.

Transport 21

Idbatterim

Originally Posted by cgcsb View Post
With new office complexes being planned for DUB and a new runway, most likely a third terminal, we'll probably be looking at 40 million passengers by the middle of the century, not to mention airport staff and the office workers.

40 million by the middle of the century?! Ok, we are going to hit 25,000,000 this year or good as, with 10% compound growth over the next few years (down from the current 15%), it would leave us at 40,262,750 by the end of 2020...

Of course I am not sure how much more numbers the airport can take given current parameters. 35,000,000 we hear, I would believe the terminals can handle that, but can the current runway?

I am not saying we will sustain or average 10% per annum by the end of 2020 BUT I reckon 40,000,000 will be well before the middle of the decade...

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

40 million by the middle of the century?! Ok, we are going to hit 25,000,000 this year or good as, with 10% compound growth over the next few years (down from the current 10%), it would leave us at 40,262,750 by the end of 2020...

Of course I am not sure how much more numbers the airport can take given current parameters. 35,000,000 we hear, I would believe the terminals can handle that, but can the current runway?

I am not saying we will sustain or average 10% per annum by 2020 BUT I reckon 40,000,000 will be well before the middle of the decade...

I was being kind with the 40m by mid century. Not that this luas crayoning will work either way.

Idbatterim

I was being kind with the 40m by mid century. Not that this luas crayoning will work either way.

I totally agree, its not up to the job now, by the time they start work its going to be beyond a joke and by the time, they finish it, well... :mad:

BoatMad

Idbatterim wrote: »

I totally agree, its not up to the job now, by the time they start work its going to be beyond a joke and by the time, they finish it, well... :mad:

again I think there will be a heavy rail connection either in parallel or instead, I dont think that LUAS is seen as a complete solution

Build timetables can be changed

Idbatterim

if that is the case, I hope it is properly planned and that the luas and dart would join up at the airport, not have some travelator BS!

BoatMad

not have some travelator BS!

I like travelators

The main issue for heavy rail is the site of a station

Sam Russell

BoatMad wrote: »

I like travelators

The main issue for heavy rail is the site of a station

..... and whether it is a through station or a turnaround.

dubhthach

moyners wrote: »

Bit OT here but Apple, Pfizer, EMC and VMWARE all have European headquarters in Cork, Amazon has a customer service centre in Cork. Tyco is moving its global headquarters to Cork.

Galway has a large medical devices cluster, etc.

There is life outside of Dublin :rolleyes:

EMC own VMWare but aside from that even Red Hat have offices in Cork and not Dublin.

BoatMad

dubhthach wrote: »

EMC own VMWare but aside from that even Red Hat have offices in Cork and not Dublin.

Yes but population is the key , outside of Dublin , the country , by European standards is empty

Markcheese

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes but population is the key , outside of Dublin , the country , by European standards is empty

I think by European standards , Dublin is pretty empty- and sprawling -

1huge1

E-mailed this to Paschal Donohoe

Not my best piece of writing but just went on a bit of a rant/

Dear Paschal

How can you possibly justify the cancellation of Dart Underground in favour of a Luas to the airport, any transport expert will tell you that Tram networks are not built for long distance travel (the airport in this instance would fall into that category).

The Dart Underground would be the centerpiece of transport in Dublin for years to come, I appreciate the funding for this might not be immediately available, but for the sake of Dublin's long term infrastructure, it would be better to postpone Dart Underground and instead just go forward with the CPO's.

The airport needs a heavy rail link, a spur from Clongriffen an be provided very cheaply and once DU is eventually built, would fit into the network perfectly.

I can't help but feel this is a politically motivated decision with no real thought provided for the long term future of Dublin's already poor public transport system.

I hope before the Capital Budget is officially announced, that this is taken into account.

My opinion is backed up by Irish Rail, Engineers Ireland and many other experts in the field, you yourself have previously stated that this project was the most vital for Dublin's transport future,

Kind regards

Carawaystick

BoatMad wrote: »

I like travelators

DAA can't even install enough travelators in T2 arrivals, there are huge gaps if you arrive at a gate at the tip of the terminal.

bk

Markcheese wrote: »

I think by European standards , Dublin is pretty empty- and sprawling -

No it is not!

Dublin is a medium sized European city. It has almost exactly the same population size and density as Amsterdam!

This is part of the problem, people seem to think we are still stick in the 1950's, a small backwards uncompetitive city and country. Rather then the reality that we are now a relatively large European city, which is the silicon valley of Europe with almost every major IT company based here. With massive numbers of very well educated foreigners moving here to work in high end jobs.

But it seems that the old political class and even many Irish people are completely oblivious to this.

Dublin isn't competing with Cork, it is competing with London, Zurick, Frankfurt, etc. It is competing to attract the top companies and competing to attract the best and brightest to come from across Europe to work here.

The danger is that these companies and young people expect high quality infrastructure. Non of them want to live in a 3 bedroom house, 3 hours commute from Dublin. They want to live in nice, large apartments in the city center, with nice bars, restaurants close by and high quality public transport, pedestrian and cycling infrastructure to get around.

We need to be careful not to fall behind in these areas or we could end up losing the engine that powers the entire Irish economy.

Idbatterim

E-mailed this to Paschal Donohoe

Not my best piece of writing but just went on a bit of a rant/

good man! I have also emailed him... I wonder to escalate this, if we could get a campaign of bombarding him with postcards of a metro or heavy rail line to the airport or something similar...

Jamie2k9

Carawaystick wrote: »

DAA can't even install enough travelators in T2 arrivals, there are huge gaps if you arrive at a gate at the tip of the terminal.

The poor fatty's can't walk a few steps no?

Would you like the daa to pick up your bags and walk with you to your car/bus?

I gave him an email also and it wasn't to pleasant, got a replay to say it has been noted.

syklops

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The poor fatty's can't walk a few steps no?

I walked less steps getting from the plane steps in San Francisco airport to the BART station in Dublin, California, than I used getting from gate 21 in Dublin airport(arriving) to the bus for the Dublin Airport Clayton Hotel.

Maybe I'm a fatty in your eyes. The question remains, why do other airports have decent transport connections and we don't?