DART+ (DART Expansion)

MrMorooka

It's terrible how the Airport luas makes the Broombridge stop into a branch before it's even been built. The connectivity is just ****e. If I want to get from Clonsilla to the airport, I need to change at Broombridge, travel one stop to Cabra, change again, then change to a people-mover 30 minutes later*. DU was at least integrating various modes and creating interchanges and connectivity. This is just fragmenting things worse.

*or, of course, just change to an Aircoach at Drumcondra, which is the logical choice, so what was the point to building the Luas? It's a point-to-point solution instead of a network one.

McAlban

If they build this they may as well tunnell from Dardistown to Cabra.

I travel in the R108 every day to drop my teenage son to school. It Usually takes 40-45 Minutes to make a 10km journey from the NCT Centre on Naul Road (where you hit the traffic), to Mobhi Road, and back to Northwood for Work. 20 -25 Minutes southbound on the R108 through Ballymun which is barely 4km. I can Run this distance faster!

Adding a Luas to this road in either direction is ludicrous. It will cause massive congestion.

cgcsb

McAlban wrote: »

If they build this they may as well tunnell from Dardistown to Cabra.

I travel in the R108 every day to drop my teenage son to school. It Usually takes 40-45 Minutes to make a 10km journey from the NCT Centre on Naul Road (where you hit the traffic), to Mobhi Road, and back to Northwood for Work. 20 -25 Minutes southbound on the R108 through Ballymun which is barely 4km. I can Run this distance faster!

Adding a Luas to this road in either direction is ludicrous. It will cause massive congestion.

The luas would be in the central median presumably.

McAlban

It's So Narrow Here.

They would have to reduce at least one lane of traffic or remove a Bus Lane. Further contributing to the Load on the Other Lanes..

Similar issue all the way up. Also where are they going to put the tunnel entrance? Obviously it's a bored tunnell so wondering how they're going ot get in and out.

cgcsb

It's just mean removing the right turning lane there. The road would also be slightly widened

Lenton Lane

I found this little gem on Paschal Donohoes own site today. It's a press release he issued when he was opposition transport spokesman in 2010:

Source: http://paschaldonohoe.ie/iarnrod-eireann-humiliates-minister-dempsey-fails-to-come-clean-on-dublin-underground-dart-delay/

Fine Gael National Press Office Press
Statement by Senator Paschal Donohoe Seanad Spokesperson onTransport & the Marine
Thursday, 6th May 2010
Iarnród Éireann humiliates Minister Dempsey & fails to come clean on Dublin Underground Dart delay
To blame the planning process for the delay in the Dublin Underground DART raises more questions than answers, according to Fine Gael Seanad Transport Spokesperson, Senator Paschal Donohoe, who today (Thursday) said that Iarnród Éireann has not yet lodged a planning application with An Bord Pleanála.
“It is absolutely preposterous that a process that has not even begun yet is being blamed for the three year delay in delivering the Dublin Underground DART.
“This, along with the failure to inform Minister Dempsey of this decision, raises the question of who is really responsible for transport in our country and amounts to a calculated humiliation of Minister Dempsey by the Board of his own major semi-State.
“The Dublin Underground DART is needed more than any other Dublin Transport 21 project as it will connect many of our existing services and stations throughout Dublin. Such integration is a vital part of Transport 21 as it will help us make better use of what we already have.
“For Iarnrod Éireann to make a decision on this project, without informing Noel Dempsey, amounts to a calculated snub of the Minister. It shows, yet again, that transport is provided by competing bodies and that this Government does not have the vision and will bring them to heel. This is particularly striking owing to the fact that Minister Dempsey has just re-appointed the Chairman of Iarnrod Éireann. This is some way to repay a vote of confidence.
“To blame the planning process for this delay is just not good enough as An Bord Pleanála has not actually received the Railway Order. I also know that this Order was at a very advanced stage of preparation due to meetings that I organised between the Iarnród Éireann and the local community.
“There are serious question that must now be answered. The Minister and his semi-State must now come clean on:
Why Iarnród Eireann did not tell the Minister of its decision to defer this project?
How it can blame a planning process that has not yet begun?
Whether or not the Minister for Transport is happy with the reason for this delay and if he still has confidence in the Board of Iarnród Éireann to deliver this vital and much needed project for Dublin?”

Muahahaha

Thats some U-turn from Paschal from being in favour of DU to instead sponsoring a Luas through his own constituency

murphaph

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's only one route across the Liffey with good capacity in west Dublin and that is full most mornings...

This is true but at least one new crossing is proposed between Lucan and Leixlip. Regardless, the roads south of the river could feed the Kildare route stations and those north of the river could serve the Maynooth line ones. My point was simply that the tunnel will not be idle because we don't have as many feeder lines as Munich.

1huge1

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats some U-turn from Paschal from being in favour of DU to instead sponsoring a Luas through his own constituency

His turn around is a lot more recent than that, just 3 weeks ago when he was officially announcing the reopening of the Phoenix Park Tunnel that the project was in no way a replacement for the Dart Underground which is vital for the future of transport in Dublin.

Literally 3 weeks ago!

Schadenfreudia

I hope ye are all showering every FG/Lab TD in Dublin with emails on DU?

FreudianSlippers

Shared from SSC - sign the petition: https://www.change.org/p/pascal-donohoe-minister-for-transport-tourism-and-sport-dublin-needs-dart-underground-cf07aa85-4c8d-47d5-b52b-b9a59cad3cb8?recruiter=283576866&utm_source=share_for_starters&utm_medium=copyLink

Irish Steve

FWIW,

Novosibirsk is the third largest city in Russia, population 1.4 million. They have a metro system, still being constructed, it carries between 250,000 and 345,000 passengers PER DAY. Construction of the second line is still in progress, it was badly delayed by the economic problems that befell the Soviet Union in the 90's

The population is similar to the Dublin area population. The difference is that the airport (6th busiest in Russia) handles under 4 million passengers a year.

Dublin is the 25th busiest airport in Europe, and as far as I can see, there's only one other airport above Dublin in that list (Antalya in Turkey) that doesn't have a rail link to the airport.

You can draw your own conclusions about where the present mess leaves Dublin going forward. Perhaps if we were to elect some people with real business experience, we might get better government, with the ability to see what is needed for the overall economic good of the country, rather than the parish pump mentality that makes any real progress impossible.

lapua20grain

spotted this online today
http://www.herald.ie/news/airport-rail-link-will-go-ahead-pledges-joan-burton-31518289.html

FreudianSlippers

lapua20grain wrote: »

spotted this online today
http://www.herald.ie/news/airport-rail-link-will-go-ahead-pledges-joan-burton-31518289.html

Yeah, the use of "rail" so vaguely is definitely Airport Luas. :mad:

Maybe that should be the Luas motto: "it's technically rail"

cgcsb

Is the Irish media offering any balance at all these days?

She even talks about the capacity issue 'another 40,000 people' i.e. beyond what a magical mystery tour of Cabra luas line can handle.

Brian CivilEng

Joan Burton in The Herald wrote:

At the same time, passengers at Dublin Airport are expected to exceed 23 million within four years

Sept 2014 to Aug 2015 Dublin Airport carried 24 million passengers. Do they even know what they are talking about?

Lenton Lane

cgcsb wrote: »

Is the Irish media offering any balance at all these days?

She even talks about the capacity issue 'another 40,000 people' i.e. beyond what a magical mystery tour of Cabra luas line can handle.

This is very much an issue. The Irish media are so happy to take bones thrown at them from sources in government that they are incapable of independent thought and analysis.

That's why the Irish Times leader the other day was giving credence to the ridiculous BRT airport proposals and why the only time the Indo covers Irish Rail is when there is a problem or a potential strike.

We deserve better!

cgcsb

I got this back from Sean Kenny, Grim Reading:

"Hello *****,

Thank you for your recent email and comments on DART Underground which I noted with great care.

Please be assured that Labour in government is very committed to enhancing the transport and commuter infrastructure for residents across Dublin including the significant investment in the Cross City Luas Line link-up and the rollout of integrated ticketing and real time information for our bus network.

Recent reports in the media about the DART Underground are based on speculation and nothing more than that.
I personally want to see DART Underground go ahead and will be disappointed if it does not. I would not like to see it cancelled completely, but I do know that borrowing options are limited given all of the other demands on our economy. Also, given the massive cost of the project and given the recent years of economic difficulty, it may not be possible to get consortiums of development companies to invest in the DART Underground project under a Public Private Partnership - that was the original way the project was to be advanced.

That said, I know that all relevant transport proposals are currently being considered in the context of the upcoming Capital Plan which will be agreed and published very soon by my colleague Minister Brendan Howlin, together with the rest of the government.

Yours sincerely,


__________________________
Seán Kenny, T.D."

antoinolachtnai

murphaph wrote: »

To be fair the Maynooth line could also feed the tunnel. It's not written in stone that it never would.

It is very difficult to build a grade separated junction afterwards. Doing it afterwards entails doing work on very busy lines. It is a lot easier to do it at the outset. The cost is really not much more.

The reasons given for not doing this in the original plan are pretty thin. (You'd have to knock down some buildings, basically.)

1huge1

cgcsb wrote: »

I got this back from Sean Kenny, Grim Reading:

"Hello *****,

Thank you for your recent email and comments on DART Underground which I noted with great care.

Please be assured that Labour in government is very committed to enhancing the transport and commuter infrastructure for residents across Dublin including the significant investment in the Cross City Luas Line link-up and the rollout of integrated ticketing and real time information for our bus network.

Recent reports in the media about the DART Underground are based on speculation and nothing more than that.
I personally want to see DART Underground go ahead and will be disappointed if it does not. I would not like to see it cancelled completely, but I do know that borrowing options are limited given all of the other demands on our economy. Also, given the massive cost of the project and given the recent years of economic difficulty, it may not be possible to get consortiums of development companies to invest in the DART Underground project under a Public Private Partnership - that was the original way the project was to be advanced.

That said, I know that all relevant transport proposals are currently being considered in the context of the upcoming Capital Plan which will be agreed and published very soon by my colleague Minister Brendan Howlin, together with the rest of the government.

Yours sincerely,


__________________________
Seán Kenny, T.D."

I commend him for giving a reply that actually required some thought, more than I have been able to get so far.

Idbatterim

Dublin airport was European 25th busiest last year, but if we took this years expected end if year figure, based on last years end of year figure for other airports, we would be at 17 th busiest...

Cinephille1888

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is very difficult to build a grade separated junction afterwards. Doing it afterwards entails doing work on very busy lines. It is a lot easier to do it at the outset. The cost is really not much more.

The reasons given for not doing this in the original plan are pretty thin. (You'd have to knock down some buildings, basically.)

The Maynooth Line already runs into the Docklands tracks twice??

The Canal Tracks run to Docklands station, now seperate from the East Wall railhead and former Spencer dock tracks.

And also under the Northern Line where the Drumcondra tracks turn to join at Connolly. I have rarely seen traffic use this underpass, but it seems to exist for Stock and Cargo trains to go into the docklands. This track appears to meet the ramp that Tara Mines trains still take. The ramp due to be electrified for Dart Underground.


A change of switches and signals yes, but unless there's a height clearance issue, there's a viaduct going down under the Northern line.

Schadenfreudia

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Shared from SSC - sign the petition: https://www.change.org/p/pascal-donohoe-minister-for-transport-tourism-and-sport-dublin-needs-dart-underground-cf07aa85-4c8d-47d5-b52b-b9a59cad3cb8?recruiter=283576866&utm_source=share_for_starters&utm_medium=copyLink

Only 287 supporters when I signed.

"Despair" is a word that springs to mind.

antoinolachtnai

Cinephille1888 wrote: »

The Maynooth Line already runs into the Docklands tracks twice??

The Canal Tracks run to Docklands station, now seperate from the East Wall railhead and former Spencer dock tracks.

And also under the Northern Line where the Drumcondra tracks turn to join at Connolly. I have rarely seen traffic use this underpass, but it seems to exist for Stock and Cargo trains to go into the docklands. This track appears to meet the ramp that Tara Mines trains still take. The ramp due to be electrified for Dart Underground.


A change of switches and signals yes, but unless there's a height clearance issue, there's a viaduct going down under the Northern line.

As I understand it, this option was looked at and wasn't done because of the perceived difficulty.

To put on a high frequency of services, it would need to be fully grade separated at the junctions, i.e, a train from maynooth into the tunnel would have to be able to get into the tunnel without having to run across any northbound tracks out of the tunnel (or out of anywhere else). It is a while since I looked at it, but I understand this is not possible with the current layout that is proposed for DU.

If it is simple to do without building extra tracks, it should have always been in the plan, rather than just having a link for shunting trains between lines.

Grandeeod

Please remember that the Government and media are feeding us a line that the country is on the comeback trail. When it suits them, there's money for lots of things in the next budget. But when it doesn't suit them, they fall back on the usual crap. Put simply, if Ireland was awash with money, no Government would commit to large scale rail projects that nudge over the billion mark.

Various opinions have been put forward for the demise of DU. A distrust of CIE/IE. A public perception that luas is a positive brand.

Ultimately we are caught in a political ball game. I myself was involved in that ball game in 2003. FG in opposition did all they could do to "expose" FF for wasting billions on rail projects. They believed that the PPT was an alternative to such an extent, that they wined and dined anyone who promoted it. The PPT is a worthwhile project and even if DU was in place, it would have an additional role. However, it is NOT an alternative. FG are slow to believe this. As for MN, this is perceived as a FF idea and as is typical of Irish politics, if it was the perfect solution handed down on a plate and proven beyond doubt, it would be cast aside by a FG administration. It has anyway.

Until Dublin is given a leader with Dublin raised taxes to invest in critical infrastructure, it's game over.

The alternative to that is a Government that has no fear in insisting that Dublin comes first for some things, but that would be deemed a step beyond re-election.

Its a merrygoround that will keep on giving and giving as long as people accept it. It's not an election issue for a variety of reasons. There was a brief period in the mid noughties where DU and even MN were golden nuggets in the media, but it was driven by voluntary efforts to educate the public. That effort has faded.

Lenton Lane

Well said Grandeeod. The only hope now is that the government looks at the Heavy Rail connection to the Airport. But to make that practical you would ideally need a third road into Connolly. Although the city centre signalling project may alleviate some of the bottlenecks. Also terminating some south and West trains at the Airport might work via the PPT.

Luas on its own is inadequate and if they try to palm us off with BRT it will be insane. BRT might be a good answer to places like Galway but is hopelessly inadequate for Dublin.

Reuben1210

Schadenfreudia wrote:

Only 287 supporters when I signed.

"Despair" is a word that springs to mind.

Everyone should share it on social media!!!...
That should get the word out more!!

murphaph

I shared it and only 3 friends even liked it. 1 shared it. People just don't seem to care.

Pete_Cavan

cgcsb wrote: »

I got this back from Sean Kenny, Grim Reading:

"Hello *****,

At this point in reading I thought he sent you an abusive letter!

red bull

BoatMad wrote: »

I've driven extensively around Galway. Yes some roads need attention. But the motorway is a folly

Try driving from Galway to Claremorris, A journey that should take 45 mins max can take up to 2 hours