DART+ (DART Expansion)

D.L.R.

murphaph wrote: »

I shared it and only 3 friends even liked it. 1 shared it. People just don't seem to care.

nation of dumbasses unfortunately

roddney

murphaph wrote: »

I shared it and only 3 friends even liked it. 1 shared it. People just don't seem to care.

I got ZERO. The unfortunate reality is that very few people understand it and very few people care.

The polititions and spinmasters know this. They'd get more votes by scrapping water charges and increasing old age pensions.

The real problem is that infrastructural investment is a political decision and worse still a national political one. Also projects aren't bite size enough to fit into one term.

Forever doomed public transport wise.

Grandeeod

murphaph wrote: »

I shared it and only 3 friends even liked it. 1 shared it. People just don't seem to care.

Your right. People don't care. However, it shouldn't be about the public caring. Realistically it should be about responsible governence. Leadership. Pride. A will to deliver public transport projects to make Dublin more than just a drinking den for stag parties or an over compensated tax haven for multi-nationals that will trade ****ty services for profit. The only thing keeping Dublin going are the people ready and willing to put up with outrageous planning and crap public transport. Meanwhile our administrators plod along boasting about how great Dublin is.

Dublin is a repetitive ticking time bomb propped up by people accepting things they shouldn't accept, in return for the honour of earning a wage.

Idbatterim

Grandeeod wrote: »

Your right. People don't care. However, it shouldn't be about the public caring. Realistically it should be about responsible governence. Leadership. Pride. A will to deliver public transport projects to make Dublin more than just a drinking den for stag parties or an over compensated tax haven for multi-nationals that will trade ****ty services for profit. The only thing keeping Dublin going are the people ready and willing to put up with outrageous planning and crap public transport. Meanwhile our administrators plod along boasting about how great Dublin is.

Dublin is a repetitive ticking time bomb propped up by people accepting things they shouldn't accept, in return for the honour of earning a wage.

Nail on the head. I have said before on this thread, it has gone too far. At what stage do you say enough is enough. A huge amount of people don't want water charges, why not get rid of that? I'm sure everyone would love no income tax... If put to a vote, I'm sure bank guarantee would have been shot down. If we had the public running our country, we would be a worse version of Greece. I understand they want to reelected and are appealing to lowest common denominator for the most part. But sometimes, they should give the people what they need rather this what they think they need...

This is why I said Donahue should put pressure on behind closed doors to resign... It should be about responsible governance!

Amirani

Idbatterim wrote: »

Nail on the head. I have said before on this thread, it has gone too far. At what stage do you say enough is enough. A huge amount of people don't want water charges, why not get rid of that? I'm sure everyone would love no income tax... If put to a vote, I'm sure bank guarantee would have been shot down. If we had the public running our country, we would be a worse version of Greece. I understand they want to reelected and are appealing to lowest common denominator for the most part. But sometimes, they should give the people what they need rather this what they think they need...

Hence why most modern systems of government aren't democracies as people claim, but representative democracies. Pure democracies aren't an effective way of governing.

Sam Russell

Amirani wrote: »

Hence why most modern systems of government aren't democracies as people claim, but representative democracies. Pure democracies aren't an effective way of governing.

Works quite well in Switzerland. They have referendums often about most things. The only bank guarantee they have is that they will guarantee to not divulge the owner of your numbered account to anybody.:)

Amirani

Sam Russell wrote: »

Works quite well in Switzerland. They have referendums often about most things. The only bank guarantee they have is that they will guarantee to not divulge the owner of your numbered account to anybody.:)

They did bail out UBS with $60bn though...

Sam Russell

Amirani wrote: »

They did bail out UBS with $60bn though...

Did they have a referendum - or just do it?

Amirani

Sam Russell wrote: »

Did they have a referendum - or just do it?

I don't recall any referendum.

murphaph

The Swiss votedf in a referendum not to increase the number of public holidays. You're dealing with a completely different mentality.

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

Nail on the head. I have said before on this thread, it has gone too far. At what stage do you say enough is enough. A huge amount of people don't want water charges, why not get rid of that? I'm sure everyone would love no income tax... If put to a vote, I'm sure bank guarantee would have been shot down. If we had the public running our country, we would be a worse version of Greece. I understand they want to reelected and are appealing to lowest common denominator for the most part. But sometimes, they should give the people what they need rather this what they think they need...

This is why I said Donahue should put pressure on behind closed doors to resign... It should be about responsible governance!

Like most politicians, Donahue will not threaten or even come close to resigning. That would be the principle of actually caring. He doesn't. No Minister does. Go back a few years to when that tosser Dempsey was transport minister. Right to the very very end he insisted that a railway to Navan would happen. This took place while the economy was in meltdown and Irish Rail had already "silenced" a certain employee for calling a spade a spade in relation to the Navan line. The background? The last Government willingly stomped all over any reopening via planning decisions for a Motorway (M3) making it costlier and costlier for reopening a railway.

Politics is not about responsibility. Its about popularity. I dealt with enough politicians and political wannabes over the years in relation to rail transport. All were utter failures more interested in getting elected to some position. One thing I noted was that when I was hardline and somewhat aggressive, I was criticised for it by joe public. Herein lies the start of the problem. Politicians and their Semi State appointees deserve all the abuse coming to them when they fail. When you are nice, you simply get rode. When you are nasty, your issue gets recognised. The nicey nicey, behave yourself approach does not work with these guys and it never will. And I say this in relation to major rail projects and not the likes of the WRC. That's another story.

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

Nail on the head. I have said before on this thread, it has gone too far. At what stage do you say enough is enough. A huge amount of people don't want water charges, why not get rid of that? I'm sure everyone would love no income tax... If put to a vote, I'm sure bank guarantee would have been shot down. If we had the public running our country, we would be a worse version of Greece. I understand they want to reelected and are appealing to lowest common denominator for the most part. But sometimes, they should give the people what they need rather this what they think they need...

This is why I said Donahue should put pressure on behind closed doors to resign... It should be about responsible governance!

The government went out on a limb to introduce a proper water infrastructure and introduced a tax for everybody to pay for it. They got hung out to dry for it by the people of Dublin with the AAA and a number of independents almost having its removal as its sole purpose for existence. It got to the point of almost bringing down a government with many communities in Dublin turning violent over the issue with court cases to follow.

Meanwhile their country cousins have always and continue to pay for water that they use and its infrastructure.

The government will be in no hurry to spend money on big ticket infrastructure again if they have to raise taxes to pay for it or divert monies from several other smaller projects. Maybe if instead of protesting against new water infrastructure again the wise people of Dublin might protest for infrastructure whether its for water, DU or Metro North.........it might be more productive for the people of Dublin, the government and the rest of the country.

Schadenfreudia

Deleted User wrote: »

The government went out on a limb to introduce a proper water infrastructure and introduced a tax for everybody to pay for it. They got hung out to dry for it by the people of Dublin with the AAA and a number of independents almost having its removal as its sole purpose for existence. It got to the point of almost bringing down a government with many communities in Dublin turning violent over the issue with court cases to follow.

Meanwhile their country cousins have always and continue to pay for water that they use and its infrastructure.

The government will be in no hurry to spend money on big ticket infrastructure again if they have to raise taxes to pay for it or divert monies from several other smaller projects. Maybe if instead of protesting against new water infrastructure again the wise people of Dublin might protest for infrastructure whether its for water, DU or Metro North.........it might be more productive for the people of Dublin, the government and the rest of the country.

So, that's why we're going to get a different Government after the election I guess

Current lot not fit for purpose on so many levels.....

Schadenfreudia

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

So, that's why we're going to get a different Government after the election I guess

Current lot not fit for purpose on so many levels.....

Unfortunately we probably got the government we deserve. A forward thinking party with real policies and change would not get elected here. You can't touch the welfare or the public service other parties want to even increase these further, once they are paid for there is very little left for real infrastructure spending. The past few years have proven this out.

Schadenfreudia

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately we probably got the government we deserve. A forward thinking party with real policies and change would not get elected here. You can't touch the welfare or the public service , once they are paid for there is very little left for real infrastructure spending. The past few years have proven this out.

Don't disagree with your "public service" view...but I'd quibble with the rest.

The opposition to IW is a small issue in general economic terms and has become iconic - especially of Labour party duplicity.

I oppose it 100%; the issue now transcends economic argument.

But opposition to IW as an excuse or justification for abandoning DU is reducing the FG/Lab Regime to the status of brats stamping their feet in the crèche.

strassenwo!f

strassenwo!f wrote: »

They used to be quite tight here about keeping the discussion strictly to DART Underground. Obviously that's all changed.

Dart Underground has become purely political, so it follows that the discussion would head in that direction. Its merits are unquestionable but that will not increase the likelihood of it starting.

Banjoxed

Lenton Lane wrote: »

This is very much an issue. The Irish media are so happy to take bones thrown at them from sources in government that they are incapable of independent thought and analysis.

That's why the Irish Times leader the other day was giving credence to the ridiculous BRT airport proposals and why the only time the Indo covers Irish Rail is when there is a problem or a potential strike.

We deserve better!

Journalism by recycled press release. It has always been thus.

Lenton Lane

Banjoxed wrote: »

Journalism by recycled press release. It has always been thus.

Absolutely - we don't have proper investigative journalism regarding the workings of the government in this country. Instead we have a golden circle happy to take leaks from government sources and regurgitate in the press.

I see where Paul Melia of the Indo was challenged on Twitter to commentate on the Dart Underground fiasco. And what did he say? Nothing. You can bet your bottom dollar as soon as there's another bad news story about Irish Rail industrial relations or a major complaint he'll be onto it like a shot.

LXFlyer

Lenton Lane wrote: »

Absolutely - we don't have proper investigative journalism regarding the workings of the government in this country. Instead we have a golden circle happy to take leaks from government sources and regurgitate in the press.

I see where Paul Melia of the Indo was challenged on Twitter to commentate on the Dart Underground fiasco. And what did he say? Nothing. You can bet your bottom dollar as soon as there's another bad news story about Irish Rail industrial relations or a major complaint he'll be onto it like a shot.

To be honest, part of the problem is that no newspaper or broadcaster in the country has a dedicated transport correspondent.


Without any form of specialist correspondent, it is very difficult to get informed journalism on the subject.


Paul Melia was the correspondent who earlier this year alleged that Bus Eireann was threatening to cut hundreds of bus services each day, leading to a frenzied Dáil discussion on the topic, when in fact the number of services to be cut was something like 10 and most were going to be either re-routed or replaced.


Sadly transport is a topic that the press don't view as one that merits a full correspondent.

Lenton Lane

lxflyer wrote: »

To be honest, part of the problem is that no newspaper or broadcaster in the country has a dedicated transport correspondent.


Without any form of specialist correspondent, it is very difficult to get informed journalism on the subject.


Paul Melia was the correspondent who earlier this year alleged that Bus Eireann was threatening to cut hundreds of bus services each day, leading to a frenzied Dáil discussion on the topic, when in fact the number of services to be cut was something like 10 and most were going to be either re-routed or replaced.


Sadly transport is a topic that the press don't view as one that merits a full correspondent.

And clearly in the case of Melia he's useful for the DTTAS when they want to fly a kite to see how the public reacts.

salmocab

Cant expect good journalism anymore its all '5 points to improve' or '5 things we learnt from' its all gutter press taking scraps from politicians/business mens/football managers and passing it off as news. Unfortunately for the DU the only time a journo will take any interest is when they are given something by the govt. So it will always contain the party line.

Banjoxed

salmocab wrote: »

Cant expect good journalism anymore its all '5 points to improve' or '5 things we learnt from' its all gutter press taking scraps from politicians/business mens/football managers and passing it off as news. Unfortunately for the DU the only time a journo will take any interest is when they are given something by the govt. So it will always contain the party line.

And that line is in turn influenced by the senior civil servants who see their role as managing the country on the cheap through basic assumptions like using emigration to depopulate the place periodically.

Indymedia (though I'm centrist, not far left) gives a great insight into the mentality by profiling Colm McCarthy, the "Dean" of the "Doheny and Nesbitt School of Economics". Surprise surprise, infrastructural investments like DART have always been a target for the right wing commentariat who fail to see the connection between an expanding economy and sustainable population growth.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/93211

Greater urban densities serviced by decent public transport? No chance. Sure carve up land into low density sprawl instead.

Bray Head

There is a lot of talk on this thread on how these decisions are taken by politicians and civil servants. A lot of it is speculative and plain wrong. I learn a lot in this forum about civil engineeering. But very little about how political decisions are taken.

Read closely and I will explain how it works.

Public capital spending in Ireland at the moment has to satisfy a number of criteria:
1) As a share of GDP, public capital investment is at its lowest in 50 years. Ironically, the public capital stock (the sum of all bridges, hospitals, schools, etc) is at its highest ever. This means that the vast bulk of spend goes on maintaining the stock at its current level. Not much left for new build of any kind.
2) New European fiscal rules are biting. Nominal GDP will grow by 10% this year. Public spending growth will be close to flat. This means to meaningfully boost capital spend you would have to eat into current spend. I don't have to explain the politics of this.
3) Unlike most countries, the capacity to spend local revenues locally on infrastructure basically does not exist in Ireland. All resources are pooled and spent centrally. No part of the country can absorb a disproportionate share of the capital spend. See point on politics in 2).
4 Given that capital spend is so low, no project can absorb too much of the pie. See 3) above.
5) Policymakers are also inherently nervous about the risk of delays/cost overruns/archaeology on large, lengthy projects and their capacity to absorb too much of the capital budget and for too long. Memories are long. The early 2000s were characterised by overruns on quite a few road projects. It is inherently less risky to have a large number of small projects rather than a small number of large ones.
6) Economic output in Ireland is extremely volatile. Demand projections that looked prudent in 2007 looked silly by 2009. A large infrastructure project can take a decade to deliver. Forecasting demand ten years ahead in Ireland is very difficult. Consensus forecasts for today's population in the early 90s were in the region of 20% below what it has turned out to be.

The same issues face both water and energy infrastructure. To a certain extent these issues have been de-politicised by giving the job of investment decisions to faceless regulators and utility operators.

I doubt this will ever happen with transport though. It is the most visible of all infrastructure. I have seen many the plaque with the name of the politician who opened the road, but I have yet to see one outside a sewage treatment plant!
-

Schadenfreudia

Bray Head wrote: »

As a share of GDP, public capital investment is at its lowest in 50 years.

And that is the problem.

Banjoxed

Bray Head wrote: »

There is a lot of talk on this thread on how these decisions are taken by politicians and civil servants. A lot of it is speculative and plain wrong. I learn a lot in this forum about civil engineeering. But very little about how political decisions are taken.

Read closely and I will explain how it works.

Public capital spending in Ireland at the moment has to satisfy a number of criteria:
1) As a share of GDP, public capital investment is at its lowest in 50 years. Ironically, the public capital stock (the sum of all bridges, hospitals, schools, etc) is at its highest ever. This means that the vast bulk of spend goes on maintaining the stock at its current level. Not much left for new build of any kind.
2) New European fiscal rules are biting. Nominal GDP will grow by 10% this year. Public spending growth will be close to flat. This means to meaningfully boost capital spend you would have to eat into current spend. I don't have to explain the politics of this.
3) Unlike most countries, the capacity to spend local revenues locally on infrastructure basically does not exist in Ireland. All resources are pooled and spent centrally. No part of the country can absorb a disproportionate share of the capital spend. See point on politics in 2).
4 Given that capital spend is so low, no project can absorb too much of the pie. See 3) above.
5) Policymakers are also inherently nervous about the risk of delays/cost overruns/archaeology on large, lengthy projects and their capacity to absorb too much of the capital budget and for too long. Memories are long. The early 2000s were characterised by overruns on quite a few road projects. It is inherently less risky to have a large number of small projects rather than a small number of large ones.
6) Economic output in Ireland is extremely volatile. Demand projections that looked prudent in 2007 looked silly by 2009. A large infrastructure project can take a decade to deliver. Forecasting demand ten years ahead in Ireland is very difficult. Consensus forecasts for today's population in the early 90s were in the region of 20% below what it has turned out to be.

The same issues face both water and energy infrastructure. To a certain extent these issues have been de-politicised by giving the job of investment decisions to faceless regulators and utility operators.

I doubt this will ever happen with transport though. It is the most visible of all infrastructure. I have seen many the plaque with the name of the politician who opened the road, but I have yet to see one outside a sewage treatment plant!
-

The dog that doesn't bark in all that is planning densities and land use - of course, if decisions were ever going to be based on the aborted National Spatial Strategy then greater numbers of roads, railways and even sewage treatment plants would have been needed in the targeted areas.

In a way, you reveal why sprawl is the default position for Official Ireland - it's cheaper to plan for less infrastructural investment; farmers, auctioneers and builders get a quicker turnaround, and projects that end up in Ireland with a ten year lead time don't get the money out to those who want a return quickly enough.

Godge

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

And that is the problem.

What is amazing is that so many people who bemoan the lack of capital spending are also against the only attempt the Government made to try and boost capital spending - get water investment off the Government balance sheet so as to free up expenditure possibilities.

The short-sightedness of those who oppose Irish Water is incredible.

cgcsb

The problem with Irish water is I'm spending €120/year in un-metered charges and I'm also getting the water conservation grant of €100, effectively the water charges have raised €20 from me and my % of the administrative costs of running Irish water most likely exceed that €20, so it's actually a revenue drain on infrastructural development.

salmocab

Godge wrote: »

What is amazing is that so many people who bemoan the lack of capital spending are also against the only attempt the Government made to try and boost capital spending - get water investment off the Government balance sheet so as to free up expenditure possibilities.

The short-sightedness of those who oppose Irish Water is incredible.

Not the forum, but like many I suspect, I have no massive problem with paying for water but have massive problem with IW the business and how it was set up and its structured. I think a big problem with infrastructure here is that the govt treat the electorate like children, instead of laying out all the options and the pros cons and cost of each and then making a transparent decision that everyone can understand, they look at the options decide which will be the most politically expedient or which one they can blame on someone else. Then they ram it through without proper debate or consultation with the public. The likely Luas extension instead of better options will probably be done in a similar vane.

McAlban

cgcsb wrote: »

The problem with Irish water is I'm spending €120/year in un-metered charges and I'm also getting the water conservation grant of €100, effectively the water charges have raised €20 from me and my % of the administrative costs of running Irish water most likely exceed that €20, so it's actually a revenue drain on infrastructural development.

I'm sick of listening to the Anti Water Charges brigade at this stage. Metered water charges is the right thing to do for the water service infrastructure. but you'll always get people who use a service who don't want to pay for it.

Anyway, Building Dart Underground is the right thing to do for Transport Infrastructure in the City. But nobody wants to pay for it, it seems.

Ren2k7

Anyone else just watch the RTÉ News report on the upcoming capital programme due to be announced next week? They spent nearly the entire piece discussing bloody retirement homes and how important this was. Now I'm all for having care homes for the elderly that are properly funded and well maintained. But they DON'T take precedence over vital national transport infrastructure projects like DART U and MN.

This CAPEX programme will be a complete joke, mark my words. It'll be full of utter crap on the HSE sinkhole and other areas of the public service where money disappears.