DART+ (DART Expansion)

Bajingo

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Anyone else just watch the RTÉ News report on the upcoming capital programme due to be announced next week? They spent nearly the entire piece discussing bloody retirement homes and how important this was. Now I'm all for having care homes for the elderly that are properly funded and well maintained. But they DON'T take precedence over vital national transport infrastructure projects like DART U and MN.

This CAPEX programme will be a complete joke, mark my words. It'll be full of utter crap on the HSE sinkhole and other areas of the public service where money disappears.

A bit of a mention here...

http://www.98fm.com/reader/523.685/15988/0/

1huge1

More confirmation that it is canceled in favour of the luas

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/budget-2016-taoiseach-urges-ministers-to-prioritise-demands-1.2353022

The Dart Underground has been sacrificed and the Luas line to Dublin Airport will be prioritised. The package will include measures for flood relief and a five-year school-building programme.

:mad::mad::mad:

annfield1978

Transport Plan over 7 years and not 5 years

450 Million on Nursing Homes (Infrastructure?)

1 Billion allocated for Flood Defence over 10 years

(6 Mins 20 secs in)

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10468006/

Bajingo

1huge1 wrote: »

More confirmation that it is canceled in favour of the luas

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/budget-2016-taoiseach-urges-ministers-to-prioritise-demands-1.2353022



:mad::mad::mad:

That final sentence annoyed me, not really a confirmation as they are just referencing a previous Irish times article. Not that there's any hope though...

Grandeeod

It's all about pumping money into vote deliverence, while trying to look like they are investing in transport. (Airport luas that will require a back to the drawing board scenario.):rolleyes:

Its not much different to the boom days with the exception of that particular Government having spare cash to keep spending on planning stuff rather than building. This time around the DU CPO money can't be found and MN (as we already know) is waste material. But go luas!

That's Irish politics for you!

But I did laugh today when I heard Joan Burton on RTE. She talked about "the future". Her kinds definition of the future is the next election.

Goodbye DU and MN. Goodbye any half baked plan like T21. Goodbye any half decent rail transport project for the capital city.

Goodbye to a lot of things because Irish politicians just don't do rail transport. Best of luck to those fighting the fight!

Zebra3

McAlban wrote: »

I'm sick of listening to the Anti Water Charges brigade at this stage. Metered water charges is the right thing to do for the water service infrastructure. but you'll always get people who use a service who don't want to pay for it.

Anyway, Building Dart Underground is the right thing to do for Transport Infrastructure in the City. But nobody wants to pay for it, it seems.

I'm sick of listening to people who say we don't pay for our water.

Do the elves deliver it to our homes for free?

IW is a con.

Water infrastructure has been left to rot by successive right wing governments.

This is what happens and then it follows that the "only" way for it to succeed is for it to be privatised. Standard right wing political ideology.

It is a form of double taxation to help shore up the theft from the taxpayers' coffers to pay for private gambling debt.

Most people I know don't like being stolen from but have no issue with investment in PT.

Schadenfreudia

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Anyone else just watch the RTÉ News report on the upcoming capital programme due to be announced next week? They spent nearly the entire piece discussing bloody retirement homes and how important this was.

RTE survives on tax that could be going to productive investment.

They are hardly going to highlight positions that might ask questions about the €250 million per annum we waste on them!

That €1 billion over 4 years could pay for a lot of badly need projects :cool:

Schadenfreudia

Grandeeod wrote: »

But I did laugh today when I heard Joan Burton on RTE. She talked about "the future". Her kinds definition of the future is the next election.

Given her age "the future" isn't very long-term from her perspective, is it?

KCAccidental

I do think that the elephant in the room with regards to DU is the present government's agenda is more amenable to the privately run Luas as opposed to Irish Rail.

Grandeeod

KCAccidental wrote: »

I do think that the elephant in the room with regards to DU is the present government's agenda is more amenable to the privately run Luas as opposed to Irish Rail.

In all fairness there appears to be a general concensus from as far back as the early noughties that Governments in general have an issue with Irish Rail. Removing the luas project from the CIE light rail offce and creating the RPA and the tendering for a private operator is a blatant example. Its definately not a FG/Labour policy. I would suggest that it's coming more so from the senior civil servants in certain Depts.

Unfortunately I can't find evidence to back up my next point but I stand over it. When the RPA was created via an ammendment to the Transport Act it was stated in the proposed ammendment that they would be responsible for what was then known as the Interconnector and the Navan line. However I cannot find an online source for this anymore. But it was stated despite not being included.

Conclusion: Politicians don't appear to be eager in dealing with large/new infrastructural projects from Irish Rail. The WRC/Midleton and Dunboyne were comparitively small projects.

Schadenfreudia

The failure to "find" the relatively trivial sum required to fund the DU CPO is bordering on criminal :mad:

The f*uckers don't have to commit to doing anything in the next 5 years - just keep the option open - give them time to sort out the IR problem.

Grandeeod

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The failure to "find" the relatively trivial sum required to fund the DU CPO is bordering on criminal :mad:

The f*uckers don't have to commit to doing anything in the next 5 years - just keep the option open - give them time to sort out the IR problem.

Absolutely.

aliveandkicking

Grandeeod wrote: »

Unfortunately I can't find evidence to back up my next point but I stand over it. When the RPA was created via an ammendment to the Transport Act it was stated in the proposed ammendment that they would be responsible for what was then known as the Interconnector and the Navan line. However I cannot find an online source for this anymore. But it was stated despite not being included.

Just to back you up on this, I remember this exact topic being discussed on the old Platform 11 forums. If memory serves me right I think someone found something in the statute book stating that the RPA were responsible for ALL new rail infrastructure in the state. The discussion then went on to speculate if the RPA would be building the interconnector.

Isn't it depressing that a decade later and it's further away from being built than ever.

Markcheese

Grandeeod wrote: »

In all fairness there appears to be a general concensus from as far back as the early noughties that Governments in general have an issue with Irish Rail. Removing the luas project from the CIE light rail offce and creating the RPA and the tendering for a private operator is a blatant example. Its definately not a FG/Labour policy. I would suggest that it's coming more so from the senior civil servants in certain Depts.

Unfortunately I can't find evidence to back up my next point but I stand over it. When the RPA was created via an ammendment to the Transport Act it was stated in the proposed ammendment that they would be responsible for what was then known as the Interconnector and the Navan line. However I cannot find an online source for this anymore. But it was stated despite not being included.

Conclusion: Politicians don't appear to be eager in dealing with large/new infrastructural projects from Irish Rail. The WRC/Midleton and Dunboyne were comparitively small projects.

There's probably a good reason (political and economic) for not just "throwing" a major project into the pit that is Irish rail -the easy option would be to just hand it to IR but goverment seems to have gone out of its way to avoid them as much as possible - could DU be built without IR and dart taken out of their hands ?

Grandeeod

Markcheese wrote: »

There's probably a good reason (political and economic) for not just "throwing" a major project into the pit that is Irish rail -the easy option would be to just hand it to IR but goverment seems to have gone out of its way to avoid them as much as possible - could DU be built without IR and dart taken out of their hands ?

Im no particular fan of the CIE group, but at this stage any negative Government sentiment towards them, is cowardice. The public should not be victims, because ultimately its the public that suffer right across the board. If there is a reluctance at Government level to seriously invest in Irish Rail projects, it can only be, because the CIE brand is damaged and untrustworthy or Politicians are just plain and simple stupid and have absolutely no interest in delivering big rail projects. But that is up to the Government to sort out. I believe it may be a combination of the two.

Ren2k7

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The failure to "find" the relatively trivial sum required to fund the DU CPO is bordering on criminal :mad:

The f*uckers don't have to commit to doing anything in the next 5 years - just keep the option open - give them time to sort out the IR problem.

Yes, at this stage I'll settle for simply kicking the can down the road instead of cancelling it outright and wait until there's a government in office who actually gives a damn about vital national infrastructure in this country instead of poxy nursing homes.

Idbatterim

the cost of nursing home care is staggering, its a black hole! the likes of this is what starves DU and other essential infrastructure...

Van.Bosch

Idbatterim wrote: »

the cost of nursing home care is staggering, its a black hole! the likes of this is what starves DU and other essential infrastructure...

True but some nursing homes are a disgrace and need updating, I'm not sure if they need 450 million though.

Schadenfreudia

Van.Bosch wrote: »

True but some nursing homes are a disgrace and need updating, I'm not sure if they need 450 million though.

If you look at it from the perspective of a cynical politician - the old (or soon to be old) folk vote - those who'll still be working when DU is opened often don't.

Plus there nursing homes in every nook and cranny of the country; DU is only a few miles long.

Plus all the senior media editors/owners have either no interest in PT or are rapidly approaching their own dotage.

NuMarvel

Not wishing to take us off topic, but the nursing home works are required to meet HIQA standards; HIQA being the nursing home sector regulator. HIQA first flagged the issue with nursing homes back in 2013 and works are supposed to be completed by this year. If the works aren't done, then the nursing homes are in breach of national standards and risk closure. To put it in the words of the HSE CEO:

"The risk is that the remaining 82 facilities will be deregistered or registered with significant conditions, resulting in considerable loss of public bed capacity at a time when any loss of community beds will significantly negatively impact on the whole hospital and community system."

This isn't a case of pre-election vote-buying, these are necessary works to make sure an already overworked health system doesn't get worse.

All that said, this shouldn't be a case of either/or. The nursing homes works are certainly required but I find it hard to believe there isn't money in the pot for those and whatever minimum is required to keep the DU Railway Order active.

Schadenfreudia

NuMarvel wrote: »

Not wishing to take us off topic, but the nursing home works are required to meet HIQA standards; HIQA being the nursing home sector regulator. HIQA first flagged the issue with nursing homes back in 2013 and works are supposed to be completed by this year. If the works aren't done, then the nursing homes are in breach of national standards and risk closure. To put it in the words of the HSE CEO:

Well, I was attempting to give the perspective of the "cynical politician".

But you are correct.

I fell into the same type of error that I regularly condemn here (a Dublin v The West zero-sum attitude).

Ren2k7

Thing is nursing home provision shouldn't even be considered infrastructure spending. Many homes are in terrible state but there's no reason why the disaster that is the HSE can't find a few hundred million from its nearly €14 billion budget for such work. Infrastructure should mean roads, rail, airports, ports, electric grids, gas pipelines, etc. It's criminal that the state cannot provide for DU AND nursing homes.

Hotblack Desiato

Bray Head wrote: »

3) Unlike most countries, the capacity to spend local revenues locally on infrastructure basically does not exist in Ireland. All resources are pooled and spent centrally. No part of the country can absorb a disproportionate share of the capital spend.

I'd be very happy if Dublin got something approaching its fair share, yet the perception across the country (which politicians encourage) is that not only does Dublin get everything, but rural Ireland pays for it!

Brian CivilEng

As I have sat in a bus to the airport unmoving for almost an hour I see that there is absolutely no reason that Dublin needs dart underground.

LeinsterDub

https://www.change.org/p/pascal-donohoe-minister-for-transport-tourism-and-sport-dublin-needs-dart-underground-cf07aa85-4c8d-47d5-b52b-b9a59cad3cb8?tk=qITUvrOPi50HhF_zaeym4A1-44nFcS9DiiUZQv3CAQY&utm_source=supporter_signature_milestone_email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=supporter_signatures_750&utm_term=supporter_signature_milestone_email

May have been posted before and probably entirely useless but hey.

cgcsb

I think the prevailing belief is that money for capital spending should be divided into 26 equal portions and distributed along GAA boundaries. This thinking is the result of spending generations exporting the brains to the anglosphere and dividing the remainder along party lines.

And the thing is, I doubt the Capital, home to 25% of the population and 50% of the GDP will even get one 26th of the capital spend.

FreudianSlippers

Idbatterim wrote: »

the cost of nursing home care is staggering, its a black hole! the likes of this is what starves DU and other essential infrastructure...

...and just like the HSE and trollies, you could throw another €2bn at the problem and it wouldn't fix the systemic mess that is the HSE and government run healthcare.

loyatemu

abitofacomedian wrote: »

As I have sat in a bus to the airport unmoving for almost an hour ...

in the tunnel?

Idbatterim

As I have sat in a bus to the airport unmoving for almost an hour I see that there is absolutely no reason that Dublin needs dart underground.

I read about the chaos earlier, and I made the same point on another thread. Much of the city, shut down. Certainly no need for DU or MN... Its beyond incredible! All these idiots need to do, is get re-elected and then early in the term, commit the money for a decent swords link, i.e. MN or metro north revised or heavy rail. Get DU works started now though, its a pittance we are talking about. The bloody welfare bonus will cost €120,000,000 funny how we have money to go up in smoke, but not for things of critical importance! When they come to my door or I see them on looking for votes outside local shopping centres, they are going to get an earful from me! I recommend the rest of you do the same. Only FG though, I wouldnt waste my breath on the rest of them... Well maybe FF as they might get back in with FG, if they say they will put MN and DU back on the agenda, I would give them a vote...

random_guy

The fire is a very good example of just how important infrastructure is to a city.

Today there were thousands of people, who normally couldn't care less, directly effected by one incident. It's all over the news, twitter, facebook etc. It should have opened their eyes as to why Dublin needs more transport options. It's a brilliant opportunity, and probably the last opportunity, to pile pressure on politicians (for all the good that it will do).