DART+ (DART Expansion)

Muahahaha

cgcsb wrote: »

I think the prevailing belief is that money for capital spending should be divided into 26 equal portions and distributed along GAA boundaries. This thinking is the result of spending generations exporting the brains to the anglosphere and dividing the remainder along party lines.

And the thing is, I doubt the Capital, home to 25% of the population and 50% of the GDP will even get one 26th of the capital spend.

I remember reading somewhere before that the taxation spend per head of population is €550 per annum in Dublin and €26,000pa in Leitrim. No-one denies that Leitrim too needs infrastructure and services but it seemed really unbalanced to me.

Carawaystick

Muahahaha wrote: »

I remember reading somewhere before that the taxation spend per head of population is €550 per annum in Dublin and €26,000pa in Leitrim. No-one denies that Leitrim too needs infrastructure and services but it seemed really unbalanced to me.

Or shows the benefit of urban living, a little spending goes further...

Brian CivilEng

loyatemu wrote: »

in the tunnel?

Thankfully not, it was in the queue for the tunnel, at The Point Depot.

Meanwhile, while everything was working normally my bus took 7mins to load at t2 in Dublin airport. But of course there is no demand for a rail connection.

D.L.R.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Well maybe FF as they might get back in with FG, if they say they will put MN and DU back on the agenda, I would give them a vote...

Great idea. I mean its not like they'd lie to people to get more votes or anything :rolleyes:

Grandeeod

I'm just catching up on some of the twitter and general social media reaction to this mornings DPT closure. Nice to see some people highlight the importance of DU and MN, but sad to see that the general concensus is the usual moany hole crap from people addicted to their cars. It reminds me of the M50 gridlock prior to its upgrade. Same moany hole stuff from the car demons that just looked at you with a blank stare when you tried to "sell" the benefits of an integrated rail transport plan. I'm highly critical of the political side, but sometimes I feel the public deserve what they get.

Schadenfreudia

Grandeeod wrote: »

sad to see that the general concensus is the usual moany hole crap from people addicted to their cars. .......Same moany hole stuff from the car demons that just looked at you with a blank stare when you tried to "sell" the benefits of an integrated rail transport plan. I'm highly critical of the political side, but sometimes I feel the public deserve what they get.

Let us not fall into the temptation to score points; serious investment is required in both roads and PT to make a modern city work.

The Eastern bypass should have been built a decade ago....that doesn't in any way diminish the case for DU and some version of MN.

They divide us - they conquer us....(and I'm not saying prioritisation isn't an issue )

Irish Steve

And in several pages of posts, no one has commented on the suggestion that there is a plan to put €1Bn into Flood defences. In terms of the specifics, I for one welcome that, as in direct terms, dealing with flooding issues will benefit many more people that will a Dublin Underground. Having suffered first hand the devastation of flooding, I know exactly how important it is to remedy the massive lack of adequate investment in the proper planning and structure in relation to flood issues.

The money pot is far from bottomless, and there are for sure some areas (HSE and IW being the 2 most glaring examples, and the CIE groups are not far behind) where things could and should have been done very differently. Someone commented that the cost of delivering services in Longford is massively higher than in Dublin, perhaps that has a lot to do with having a full County Council structure (with a top heavy and massively expensive management structure) for a total population in the county of 26,000, maybe the real answer would be to get rid of a lot of the administrative structure of "county" councils, and move towards a wider regional structure with a better proportion of "managers" to on the ground workers that more effectively reflects the population structure. For a population of under 5 million, we don't need the number of "chief executives" and related expensive HR, Legal, Health & Safety and similar top management posts at County Council level that are there, the harsh reality is that most of their function could well be managed by a structure along the lines of Dublin, Leinster, Munster, and Connaught authorities, with lower grades of management at the levels of the counties.

Won't happen in my lifetime, or probably every, the Golden Circle have things well and truly sewn up in their favour, and there isn't a politician in the country with the courage to take on this cabal and sort it out so that it actually does deliver the services that the people deserve at a cost that is more realistic in terms of the number of people that they are serving.

The harsh reality is that we WOULD have been better off if the Troika had come in and forcibly restructured the bloated state services that are NOT fit for purpose, I've spent the last 10 months looking very closely at how local government works, ( or in many cases doesn't) and it's NOT pretty, but that's a subject for another thread.

The Flood relief schemes are desperately needed in some parts of the country, and DU is needed, as is a lot more in the way of infrastructure on the East Coast, but making it happen is not going to be easy given the crazy parish pump mentality that bedevils anything to do with politics in this country, and that's without the budget constraints that then have to be respected.

In many respects, the airport is another issue, if the numbers continue to rise, as they seem to be, Dublin will be the first airport in the list of European Airports listed by number of passengers without any form of rail connection, and there can be no doubt that having to rely on road only access to the airport is becoming an increasing nightmare that is unsustainable going forward, and a LUAS is NOT the answer in the long or even medium term, especially if the IAG group starts feeding even more passengers into Dublin, which seems to be their plan, that increase in volume will increase the numbers working at the airport, and they have to have access, and many of those jobs are out of "normal" hours, so the transport services have to reflect that requirement, staff parking at the airport was difficult a good while back, and increasing the numbers will only make that even more of a problem.

This whole subject is bigger than Dublin v the rest of the country, it's about ensuring that Ireland retains its position in the EU structure, and if we fail to protect that position, FDI into Ireland will reduce, and we will see important companies leaving Ireland in favour of other states that offer a better overall quality of life.

salmocab

Irish Steve wrote: »

And in several pages of posts, no one has commented on the suggestion that there is a plan to put €1Bn into Flood defences. In terms of the specifics, I for one welcome that, as in direct terms, dealing with flooding issues will benefit many more people that will a Dublin Underground. Having suffered first hand the devastation of flooding, I know exactly how important it is to remedy the massive lack of adequate investment in the proper planning and structure in relation to flood issues.

Id imagine nobody has commented on it because most people wouldn't have a problem with the flood defense getting funding.

Bajingo

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/airport-and-swords-rail-link-news-soon-31524955.html

Fingal seem fed up with the lack of rail link.

salmocab

Bajingo wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/airport-and-swords-rail-link-news-soon-31524955.html

Fingal seem fed up with the lack of rail link.

First thing I notice about that article is the word Metro on what looks very like a LUAS

Avada

salmocab wrote: »

First thing I notice about that article is the word Metro on what looks very like a LUAS

That image is from the original T21 promo material iirc. Think it was from the Metro West stuff.

monument

salmocab wrote: »

First thing I notice about that article is the word Metro on what looks very like a LUAS

Metro was to be very long, Luas-like trams on tracks grade-segregated from other traffic. The length would allow for extra capacity, and segregation would allow for higher frequency and capacity.

strassenwo!f

Is this the thread that used to be about the DART Underground project?

Schadenfreudia

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Is this the thread that used to be about the DART Underground project?

Yes, the thread that was about DU along its current planned route....;)

Grandeeod

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Let us not fall into the temptation to score points; serious investment is required in both roads and PT to make a modern city work.

The Eastern bypass should have been built a decade ago....that doesn't in any way diminish the case for DU and some version of MN.

They divide us - they conquer us....(and I'm not saying prioritisation isn't an issue )

With all due respect, I don't want an either/or scenario either. However the thrust of my post is directed at users rather than planners/decision makers. Until we fall into some form of controlled love with our cars, we are going nowhere. The divide and conquer principal is alive and well, due to the love affair with the car. From public transport, to simple pedestrian matters, we fail epically, purely and simply because we are a car dominated culture and that historically stems from rural Ireland. It has fed into the 66% non Dublin representation in Dail Eireann over many many years.

BoatMad

Grandeeod wrote: »

With all due respect, I don't want an either/or scenario either. However the thrust of my post is directed at users rather than planners/decision makers. Until we fall into some form of controlled love with our cars, we are going nowhere. The divide and conquer principal is alive and well, due to the love affair with the car. From public transport, to simple pedestrian matters, we fail epically, purely and simply because we are a car dominated culture and that historically stems from rural Ireland. It has fed into the 66% non Dublin representation in Dail Eireann over many many years.

We love cars, that's not changing , we live in a democracy, hence policy supports what people want.

Schadenfreudia

BoatMad wrote: »

We love cars, that's not changing , we live in a democracy, hence policy supports what people want.

Absolutely, I support a modern European PT system for Dublin; I support restrictions of car usage only in central zones where that is required to facilitate PT.

Think of all those utterly pointless, unused or underused bus-lanes in the suburbs?

And how much they would be used if they carried light rail systems?

BoatMad

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Absolutely, I support a modern European PT system for Dublin; I support restrictions of car usage only in central zones where that is required to facilitate PT.

Think of all those utterly pointless, unused or underused bus-lanes in the suburbs?

And how much they would be used if they carried light rail systems?

+1 , trams before busses any day.

liam24

BoatMad wrote: »

We love cars, that's not changing , we live in a democracy, hence policy supports what people want.

Do most Irish people rent cars instead of using local transport systems when they go to other European capitals? Would it even occur to them to hire a car in London instead of taking the tube?

Build a decent transport network, and fifty years from now vast numbers of people in Dublin won't even be buying cars any more.

BoatMad

liam24 wrote: »

Do most Irish people rent cars instead of using local transport systems when they go to other European capitals? Would it even occur to them to hire a car in London instead of taking the tube?

Build a decent transport network, and fifty years from now vast numbers of people in Dublin won't even be buying cars any more.

i dont agree, there will be massive uptake on EVs. people love their private vehicles. nothing will change that , progress doesnt go backwards

IN fact as tech disperses workers and the hours they work , the burb to centre commute commute may well become a thing of the past. Shopping is moving to car friendly areas as parking charges and pedestrianisation discourage centre city visitation

Dublin will never get a rail orientated PT system like London, for various reasons including history

Yes we need to improve PT, but we need to improve lots of transport infrastructure and leave the ideology to one side

liam24

BoatMad wrote: »

i dont agree, there will be massive uptake on EVs. people love their private vehicles. nothing will change that , progress doesnt go backwards

IN fact as tech disperses workers and the hours they work , the burb to centre commute commute may well become a thing of the past. Shopping is moving to car friendly areas as parking charges and pedestrianisation discourage centre city visitation

Dublin will never get a rail orientated PT system like London, for various reasons including history

Yes we need to improve PT, but we need to improve lots of transport infrastructure and leave the ideology to one side

If transport 21 had been implemented we largely would have, so I don't share your pessimism. The benefit of rail transport in many cities is that it makes the benefits of city life easily accessible to most people. If you want Dublin to become a group of isolated villages with little access to the others, then by all means ignore public transport. If I can hop on a train from anywhere and be anywhere else in 25 minutes, you'll discover the benefits for Dublin city centre, and individual areas like Ranelagh, Drumcondra and the Liberties will be huge.

BoatMad

liam24 wrote: »

If transport 21 had been implemented we largely would have, so I don't share your pessimism. The benefit of rail transport in many cities is that it makes the benefits of city life easily accessible to most people. If you want Dublin to become a group of isolated villages with little access to the others, then by all means ignore public transport. If I can hop on a train from anywhere and be anywhere else in 25 minutes, you'll discover the benefits for Dublin city centre, and individual areas like Ranelagh, Drumcondra and the Liberties will be huge.

for reasons of budget/political priorities , Dublin can never be seen to be getting the lions share of capital, even when its clearly justified on population grounds, Hence the fiasco of 150 million on a rail line linking Ennis and Athenry etc

So while we all might wish for the tooth fairy, she aint coming

liam24

BoatMad wrote: »

for reasons of budget/political priorities , Dublin can never be seen to be getting the lions share of capital, even when its clearly justified on population grounds, Hence the fiasco of 150 million on a rail line linking Ennis and Athenry etc

So while we all might wish for the tooth fairy, she aint coming

Well that may be true. I'm simply arguing against the claim you made that Irish people are in love with their cars, and that the reason we won't get a decent transport system is that that love of cars is reflected in politics. People in Dublin love their cars because the transport system is crap, not vice versa.

BoatMad

liam24 wrote: »

People in Dublin love their cars because the transport system is crap, not vice versa.

I dont believe that is a sustainable argument based on any facts. People buy cars for many many reasons, even commuters that travel by PT , still own cars often two . cars give people freedom, PT doesnt, PT is a way to get to a given fixed destination, cars are a lifestyle choice.

I have two adult kids, professionals , both in apartment land, both would like to own a small car , both can actually walk to work!!.

car usage for certain committing yes, car ownership in general , thats on the rise ( ireland being below EU average anyway )

Schadenfreudia

liam24 wrote: »

Build a decent transport network, and fifty years from now vast numbers of people in Dublin won't even be buying cars any more.

Indeed - but the "decent transport network" must come first!

And the suburbs and commuter belts will still be using (carbon neutral) cars - but not for their commutes, hopefully)

BoatMad

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Indeed - but the "decent transport network" must come first!

And the suburbs and commuter belts will still be using (carbon neutral) cars - but not for their commutes, hopefully)

indeed which is why sometimes Dublin saturday traffic is worse then week days

D.L.R.

BoatMad wrote: »

I dont believe that is a sustainable argument based on any facts. People buy cars for many many reasons, even commuters that travel by PT , still own cars often two . cars give people freedom, PT doesnt, PT is a way to get to a given fixed destination, cars are a lifestyle choice.

I have two adult kids, professionals , both in apartment land, both would like to own a small car , both can actually walk to work!!.

car usage for certain committing yes, car ownership in general , thats on the rise ( ireland being below EU average anyway )

There's a big difference between car ownership and commuting by car out of necessity.

The point of PT is to decrease private commuting, not to decrease car ownership in general.

But if the people who commute into town currently, and sit in regular gridlock.. if they won't press for DU and other PT solutions, then they can't expect John Joe from Roscommon to. Dublin and Dubliners have to push harder.

Grandeeod

I have no problem with people loving their cars and the choice to own two, three or four of them. My problem is with the attitude to using the car. Only public pressure on politicians will deliver decent PT. However Irish people are so in love with the car that it comes at the expense of demanding better PT and more to do with making road transport better. Thats a race to nowhere.

BoatMad

Thats a race to nowhere

why ?

Grandeeod

BoatMad wrote: »

We love cars, that's not changing , we live in a democracy, hence policy supports what people want.

Policy supports what Governments decide to do.

You may as well stop posting anything that is pro rail, because you are buying into a concept that has us here in the first place.

Roads are ultra important as they are the main form of transport. I've no problem with that. But its how we use those roads with our cars thats a problem. I've been at the coalface of congestion in Dublin for years. The issues of PT users are patronised, but the issues of road users seems to far outweigh those of PT users. Within commuting patterns we cannot and should not expect road transport issues to be prioritised beyond the provision of decent PT. Politicians need to escape from their rural Ireland mentality and start thinking about making large towns and particularly our capital city better for PT users

If I was to explain macro examples of rediculous and uncalled for car use across various towns and villages in Ireland, I'd be here all night.