DART+ (DART Expansion)

Grandeeod

BoatMad wrote: »

why ?

Honestly, if you have to ask why, you are very very out of touch.

BoatMad

Grandeeod wrote: »

Honestly, if you have to ask why, you are very very out of touch.

I mean , we have plenty of land, under populated , so road space isn't an issue. we do need to seriously look at providing incentives for people and business to live beyond commuting distance of Dublin, otherwise the whole place will be commuting there in the mornings

equally , you cant drive more then one car at a time so the upper limit is fixed. it cant expand forever.


all in favour of certain PT , but the outer commuter territories around Dublin are very sparse and not amenable to PT. We need bigger approach roads to dublin and some specific park and ride stuff etc

The card is here to stay and numbers will only go one way, within 10 years we shall see an explosion of electric vehicles as well.

murphaph

Australia has even more empty space...but they still have horrendous traffic jams in Sydney. Go figure. Canada has yet more empty space, but Toronto has excellent public transport. Why didn't those silly Canadians just incentivise people and business to locate away from their cities to their vast interior and save wasting money on public transport? North America is after all, even more car centric than us.

The reality is that you actually need to create a critical mass of skilled workers to be sustainable. If Google set up shop in Kiltimagh tomorrow, they would have no chance of finding the staff they need. You can incentivise all you want, you can't force employees to live somewhere that doesn't appeal to them. Berlin's population is growing while towns 100km from here are depopulating as people move to places with things do do. It's the way of things, even in wealthy Bavaria the rural towns are losing population to the cities.

BoatMad

Grandeeod wrote: »

Policy supports what Governments decide to do.

You may as well stop posting anything that is pro rail, because you are buying into a concept that has us here in the first place.

Roads are ultra important as they are the main form of transport. I've no problem with that. But its how we use those roads with our cars thats a problem. I've been at the coalface of congestion in Dublin for years. The issues of PT users are patronised, but the issues of road users seems to far outweigh those of PT users. Within commuting patterns we cannot and should not expect road transport issues to be prioritised beyond the provision of decent PT. Politicians need to escape from their rural Ireland mentality and start thinking about making large towns and particularly our capital city better for PT users

If I was to explain macro examples of rediculous and uncalled for car use across various towns and villages in Ireland, I'd be here all night.

I dont disagree with what you have said here, but its not going to happen, so lets try and handle increasing road usage, rather then simply shouting at windmills.

Drive around some advanced european cities and you'll see goo public transport , you will also see excellent urban road networks. I did a lot of business in Germany and I always drove , great urban road network

we have neither , because we cannot plan transport for the future, look how png it took to build the m50 and the debacle of its junctions and lane expansion

rail infrastructure is incredibly expensive , but rail projects are subject to massive political whims and ideology . rail often gets money when it doesnt need it and doesnt get any when it does

one suggestion would be to abandon the interurban rail network and concentrate on commuter rail to say 30 km from the centre. wasteful nonsense like WOT is bleeding money from productive commuter rail

D.L.R.

BoatMad wrote: »

I mean , we have plenty of land, under populated , so road space isn't an issue. we do need to seriously look at providing incentives for people and business to live beyond commuting distance of Dublin, otherwise the whole place will be commuting there in the mornings

FF tried decentralisation in the 00s and it was a complete failure because they didn't focus their efforts on the other cities. It led to ghost estates in the middle of nowhere, and ultimately the property crash. We're going to have to learn from these mistakes.

Urbanisation is the reality of modern societies, and its happening as we speak regardless of the Irish govts dithering policy towards it. The way to achieve what you speak of is to improve PT in all cities, including Dublin. That in itself is an incentive to live and work somewhere, is it not?

Time to get real.

markpb

BoatMad wrote: »

you'll see goo public transport

Goo public transport is what we have in Dublin ;-)

BoatMad

D.L.R. wrote: »

Time to get real.

absolutely , half peoples tax bills if they work outside 80 km from the capital, incentivise business massively to relocate , etc etc

sometime has got be done

The civil service relocation was a joke because it wasn't compulsory and wholesale chaos resulted.

a counterbalance to dublin has to be created or the city will consume every resource available or more likely descend into a hell hole as its starved of resources

BoatMad

markpb wrote: »

Goo public transport is what we have in Dublin ;-)

yes because you're always stuck in something

D.L.R.

BoatMad wrote: »

absolutely , half peoples tax bills if they work outside 80 km from the capital, incentivise business massively to relocate , etc etc

sometime has got be done

The civil service relocation was a joke because it wasn't compulsory and wholesale chaos resulted.

a counterbalance to dublin has to be created or the city will consume every resource available or more likely descend into a hell hole as its starved of resources

Dublin doesn't consume Ireland's wealth, it creates it by having a large economy. A counterbalance to Dublin would be higher economic activity in our other cities. A big part of this is public transport investment. All our cities have poor public transport.

Sierra Oscar

The Capital Plan announcement has now been delayed again until next week, looks like agreement at Government level has not been achieved.

Rumor has it Metro North is being looked at again. Can DART Underground go ahead as planned down the line if they proceed with a scaled down Metro North option now?

Long awaited capital investment plan won't be published until next week

BoatMad

D.L.R. wrote: »

This is a pretty poor argument. Dublin PRODUCES the resources for the country to function in economic terms. What, do you think Ireland produces oil or something? Ridiculous.

I know its a pretty poor argument, but the fact is Dublin will never get the proportion of resources it needs, because the rural electorate and its politicians wont wear it. So we are commending people to an increasing poverty of experience in living in Dublin.

to suggest other wise or to expect radical change is just pie in the sky. Drive around some other cities in Ireland and see empty dual carriageways, massive ring roads empty etc , ( i.e. Waterford ) and realise that more nonsense is coming down the tracks

billons and billions need to be spent to build a competitive modern world class PT system in Dublin, aint going to happen

BoatMad

D.L.R. wrote: »

Dublin doesn't consume Ireland's wealth, it creates it by having a large economy. A counterbalance to Dublin would be higher economic activity in Cork, Limerick and Galway. A big part of this is public transport investment.

i never said it did, but a consequence of that wealth is that it is sucking the whole population into its hinterlands. thats not sustainable either , unless you pour billions into support infrastructure and tahst not going to happen, cause the other regions will " shout but but but ...., we need a motorway to ..... Gort !!!

D.L.R.

BoatMad wrote: »

i never said it did, but a consequence of that wealth is that it is sucking the whole population into its hinterlands. thats not sustainable either , unless you pour billions into support infrastructure and tahst not going to happen, cause the other regions will " shout but but but ...., we need a motorway to ..... Gort !!!

It is going to happen, because people will continue moving to cities regardless, and the govt will end up with no choice. Better to do it sooner than later. Urbanisation isn't a choice, its happening all over the world.

D.L.R.

BoatMad wrote: »

I know its a pretty poor argument, but the fact is Dublin will never get the proportion of resources it needs, because the rural electorate and its politicians wont wear it. So we are commending people to an increasing poverty of experience in living in Dublin.

to suggest other wise or to expect radical change is just pie in the sky. Drive around some other cities in Ireland and see empty dual carriageways, massive ring roads empty etc , ( i.e. Waterford ) and realise that more nonsense is coming down the tracks

billons and billions need to be spent to build a competitive modern world class PT system in Dublin, aint going to happen

It will happen, eventually. With Ireland's urban population % ever increasing, this will eventually be reflected in who we elect to govt.

It'll happen slowly over time, but it will happen. Its still a fairly rural country in Western European terms, but more and more urban each year.

murphaph

BoatMad wrote: »

I know its a pretty poor argument, but the fact is Dublin will never get the proportion of resources it needs, because the rural electorate and its politicians wont wear it. So we are commending people to an increasing poverty of experience in living in Dublin.

to suggest other wise or to expect radical change is just pie in the sky. Drive around some other cities in Ireland and see empty dual carriageways, massive ring roads empty etc , ( i.e. Waterford ) and realise that more nonsense is coming down the tracks

billons and billions need to be spent to build a competitive modern world class PT system in Dublin, aint going to happen

Eventually Dublin will get what it needs because the population will grow to such an extent that Dublin will have a majority of TDs in the Dail. The constitution has limits on the number of constituents allowed in a constituency before it has to be subdivided.

Just a shame it will take years of pain before that happens....but it will happen. You might even see some sort of "Urban Ireland" party forming, where TDs from the urban centres work together. There are lots of young irish citizens coming through that don't have any connection to rural Ireland, especially the children of migrants to our country.

1huge1

I did read today actually that the population of Dublin has increased by 50,000 in the last 2 years, so I would agree with the above point.

random_guy

Irish Steve wrote: »

...And in several pages of posts, no one has commented on the suggestion that there is a plan to put €1Bn into Flood defences. In terms of the specifics, I for one welcome that, as in direct terms, dealing with flooding issues will benefit many more people that will a Dublin Underground. Having suffered first hand the devastation of flooding, I know exactly how important it is to remedy the massive lack of adequate investment in the proper planning and structure in relation to flood issues.
...

I've started a new thread on this as it's quite an interesting topic if anyone wants to get involved.

Flood Relief - Problems and Solutions

Bray Head

Frank McDonald has an op-ed in the IT today in favour of Dart Underground.

It's a bit muddled. He says that the current proposal to bring Luas to the airport would not have the capacity. He then says that Metro North (which would have the capacity) would be "daft and disruptive".

It's depressing that none of Ireland's newspapers have a transport correspondent. They all have commentators on economics, but they spend far too much time talking about trivial macro ephemera (will the Fed raise rates this month or next?) rather than on micro issues which have the potential to actually raise the growth rate of the Irish economy.

FreudianSlippers

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Capital Plan announcement has now been delayed again until next week, looks like agreement at Government level has not been achieved.

Rumor has it Metro North is being looked at again. Can DART Underground go ahead as planned down the line if they proceed with a scaled down Metro North option now?

Long awaited capital investment plan won't be published until next week

IMO as much as DU should be prioritised over MN, the government going ahead with MN is a much better choice than Luas to the airport. One would absolutely hope that if MN is chosen, they CPO the DU land - as DU is much more likely to go ahead once MN proves its worth.

FreudianSlippers

BoatMad wrote: »

absolutely , half peoples tax bills if they work outside 80 km from the capital, incentivise business massively to relocate , etc etc

Whilst I agree that there should be subsidy for businesses opening outside of the city, I'd argue if anything people living inside the canals in Dublin should get a tax break - it would encourage urban regeneration, people living more centrally and would then result in better PT.

I'm not arguing I'd ditch the car entirely (I think it's vital for doing the weekly shop etc.) I'd certainly take public transport most days into work if I had good local Luas/DART service. At the moment, from where I live to where I work, driving is the best and most cost-effective mode of transport (which isn't saying much as I live fairly centrally).

NuMarvel

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Capital Plan announcement has now been delayed again until next week, looks like agreement at Government level has not been achieved.

Rumor has it Metro North is being looked at again. Can DART Underground go ahead as planned down the line if they proceed with a scaled down Metro North option now?

Long awaited capital investment plan won't be published until next week

From what I understand, the railway order for DU expires on Thursday (24th) unless the CPOs have been activated by then. The CPOs aren't likely to be activated before the Capital Plan announcement, and there's no indication of the Govt seeking an extension on the Railway Order, which means the planning permission will run out before the Capital Plan announcement.

The only option I can envisage is that the required land is CPO'd after the Order expires and with Irish Rail resubmitting the application for a Railway Order at some point in the future. That would at least keep the option of the current route open, but I'm not familiar with the planning process. For all I know valid, current planning permission may be required in order to enact a CPO.

markpb

1huge1 wrote: »

I did read today actually that the population of Dublin has increased by 50,000 in the last 2 years, so I would agree with the above point.

There's one problem with all of this aspiration. An incredible number of people who move to Dublin from other parts of Ireland still feel a strong affinity with where they came from. Not a problem of course but it has two interesting side effects.

Many of them are still registered to vote at home and many of them rush home every five years to fill out the census at home. This is justified either by a sense of loyalty, a stronger sense of connection or because they don't see themselves living in Dublin for long. Daft as this may sound, I've had conversations about this with people well into their 30s, owned a house in Dublin and were in professions where getting a job outside of Dublin/Cork was unlikely.

BoatMad

The only option I can envisage is that the required land is CPO'd after the Order expires and with Irish Rail resubmitting the application for a Railway Order at some point in the future. That would at least keep the option of the current route open, but I'm not familiar with the planning process. For all I know valid, current planning permission may be required in order to enact a CPO.

can't be done, the CPO process requires a railway order. Irish Rail dont have automatic access to CPOs. This has been the case since the beginning of railways. The planning hasn't lapsed as far as I know, and I presume its a Section 8 planning processes anyway ( major infrastructure)

DU is a goner in any reasonable time scale it seems

Sierra Oscar

The Minister for Transport is set to make a DART Underground announcement at 1.45PM today according to the media.

BoatMad

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Minister for Transport is set to make a DART Underground announcement at 1.45PM today according to the media.

twist the knife , eh Brutus

Irish Steve

Arrgghhhh................. Such narrow minded short term tunnel vision focus, with no real awareness of what's going to happen over the next 20 to 30 years.

The centre of Dublin is going to die as an employment location in the long term, we're already seeing the change in emphasis towards out of town shopping, and the increased number of large trading and related commercial estates around the periphery of Dublin, simply because there's no available land bank in central Dublin, and the prices of what is there are becoming increasingly unsustainable. The focus of mass transport on the centre of Dublin is too short sighted, given the massive industrial areas in places like Sandyford, Citywest, Parkwest, and the D15 areas like Ballycoolin, all of which are a nightmare to get to by public transport unless you already live relatively close to these areas in the first place, unless you are prepared for the nausea of commuting via the centre of Dublin, with all the attendant delays that entails, our grand daughter has just finished a year at Ballyfermot college, and her journey from Swords by public transport was close on 2 HOURS, as there are no viable direct routes.

The same can be said for places like Blanchardstown, Liffey Valley, and other large out of town centres, the access to them by public transport is by bus or taxi, which don't make it easy to get larger items home, and parking at both of these centres is a nightmare in terms of poor design, and bad management of the access in and out of them, made worse by our planners complete inability to think in 3 dimensions, so pedestrians and traffic are forced to exist at the same levels, rather than being sensibly segregated as is the case in places like Milton Keynes, where there are much better systems to manage the flow in and out of the centres.

Longer term, the whole future of "retail" is under a cloud, increasingly, people look in a retail store to see if they like an item, and if they do, there are more and more examples of the same item then being ordered on line for home delivery at a cheaper price, and that's not likely to reduce, and if retail can't make the astronomic margin they need to cover obscene rents, rates and all the other costs involved in a bricks and mortar location, they will close up shop, leaving only "essentials", like food retailing, and increasing numbers of charity shops to fill the empty spaces. In the same vein, I have reached the point where if a retailer tells me that "they can have it within 24 hours", I order on line, for a substantial discount, and have it in the same timescale, and that's not going to change either.

So, things like the central Dublin area are going to change, and the result will be there will be less of a demand for commute to the centre, and an increasing demand for commute to the peripheral areas where space is available for large office complexes with associated data centres and the like, which can't be fitted into central Dublin unless there is massive clearance of older buildings that are already there. Add to that the concept of driverless vehicles, which don't need central parking, and the whole focus of traffic management will change, hopefully for the better.

Then there's the whole range of work that can be done without any issues from home as long as there's a sensible performance broadband that allows uploads AND downloads at decent speeds, which is very much not the case at present, whatever about being able to download gigabytes of data rapidly, try uploading a large file or two, and you discover that working from home is not quite as straightforward as might have been presumed, but that will change as faster fibre based services become more readily available.

So, longer term, do we REALLY need a mass transit system to bring people in to St Stephen's Green to enjoy watching the birds on the lake, or do we need a comprehensive public transport system that takes people more directly to the areas of the city where the work is, which in an increasing number of cases is NOT the couple of square miles at the centre of Dublin.

Sierra Oscar

It needs to be redesigned says the Minister. Here we go again - another decade of planning?

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/646306329561186304

MrMorooka

Clearly it needs to be redesigned to serve College Green instead.

1huge1

I'm slightly more positive after reading this, better deferred than cancelled, though I don't know how you could build one that is more efficient. Also, where is the €3 billion cost of the tunnel coming from

Dart to be extended to Balbriggan by 2022 (via @IrishTimes) http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dart-to-be-extended-to-balbriggan-by-2022-1.2361505

Bray Head

Full statement is here:

Statement by Minister Donohoe on Dart Underground

Following consideration at the Government meeting this morning (Tuesday), the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Paschal Donohoe T.D., announced that the DART Underground project will not proceed as currently designed but will be redesigned to provide a lower cost technical solution for the project. The estimated cost of the currently designed DART Underground Project is €3 billion and the cost of the currently envisaged DART Expansion Programme* is €4 billion. (This €4 billion is inclusive of the €3 billion DART Underground Project).
This decision has been made in the context of preparations for the next Capital Plan from 2016, the details of which are currently being finalised.
The National Transport Authority (NTA), whose statutory remit covers the planning of public transport in the Greater Dublin Area, was requested to review the Dart Underground project in conjunction with the updating of the long term transport strategy for the GDA region. Based on the outcome of the updated business case, the NTA recommended that the project, which remains a key element of integrated transport for the Greater Dublin Area, be redesigned to provide a lower cost technical solution, whilst retaining the required rail connectivity.
The Minister endorses the NTA recommendations and intends to provide funding in the new Capital Plan to progress redesign and planning for the revised project. The Minister also intends to provide funding for other elements of the overall DART Expansion Programme, including, in particular, electrification of the Northern line to extend the DART to Balbriggan and works to increase frequency of existing services.
Minister Donohoe said: ‘As Government works to further stabilize the public finances, we must continue to seek the best value for taxpayers’ money in everything we do. A project of such magnitude - in the order of €4 billion - has to be designed and delivered in a way that best ensures cost effectiveness for the taxpayer and the State. The overall DART Expansion Programme has a key role to play in delivering an efficient transport system and I intend to progress key elements of the overall Programme but the NTA’s recommendations that the tunnel element can be delivered at a reduced cost to the taxpayer have to be accepted’.
“That is why I informed Government today that I endorsed the NTA’s recommendation and secured its approval for the tunnel element of the project to be redesigned. I will seek, within the resources available in the next Capital Plan, to provide funds to progress the redesign and planning of the project. In the interest of advancing the development of our rail network so that it better meets the needs of commuters, I also informed Government that I intend to progress elements of the overall DART Expansion Programme which bring value in themselves, subject to appropriate business cases and the availability of funding.”
The Minister also confirmed that the compulsory acquisition powers of the Railway Order for the existing DART Underground project would not now be activated and indicated that the Government has agreed that a new Railway Order be sought for the redesigned project in due course.
The Minister indicated that in respect of other major capital projects which will form part of a new Draft Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area, including the Fingal/North Dublin Transport Study, it is his intention to make further announcements on these shortly in the context of the new Capital Plan.
Additional Notes
The National Transport Authority carried out a review of the key transport infrastructure projects that were proposed to support the growth of the Greater Dublin Region. The Authority has now recommended to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport that the DART Underground project be re-examined in order to deliver the required rail connectivity in the capital city with a lower cost technical solution.
DART Underground is a rail link proposal, predominately underground, from the Northern Line just north of Connolly Station, to Inchicore on the Kildare Line, and with stations located at Docklands, Pearse, St. Stephen’s Green, Christchurch, Heuston and Inchicore. The project received planning consent in 2011, which became operative in March 2014 following judicial review proceedings taken by a number of third parties.


The Authority has recommended the following:

1. That the compulsory acquisition powers of the approved railway order for the DART Underground Project are not activated - i.e. the “notices to treat” are not issued;
2. That the DART Underground Project is redesigned to provide a lower cost technical solution for the project, whilst retaining the required rail connectivity;
3. That a new railway order is sought for the revised, lower cost DART Underground Project, together with any remaining elements of the overall DART Expansion Programme which have not already been approved under separate approval processes;
4. That the design and planning work of the revised DART Underground Project is advanced in order to be available for commencement of construction after 2020; and
5. That the non-tunnelled elements of the DART Expansion Programme be progressed in line with available funding.

* The DART Expansion Programme comprises DART Underground, as outlined above, plus:

• Electrification of the Northern Line to Drogheda;
• Electrification of the Cork Line from Heuston to Hazelhatch and completion of 4 tracking from Park West to Inchicore;
• Electrification of the Sligo Line from Connolly to Maynooth, together with removal of level crossings and re-signalling; and
• Expansion of fleet and depot facilities

The overall DART Expansion Programme has been assessed as a positive project from an economic perspective and one which the NTA regards as essential for efficient transport in the region. However, it has been identified that it is possible to redesign the tunnel part of the project to substantially reduce its capital cost.
It has also been identified that a substantial part of the benefits of the overall DART Expansion Programme are derived from the non-tunnelled elements of the Programme, being the extension of electrified network and the increased train frequencies then applying.

- See more at: http://www.merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Releases/Statement_by_Minister_Donohoe_on_Dart_Underground.html#sthash.cMVKbPJn.dpuf