DART+ (DART Expansion)

marno21

LXFlyer wrote: »

To be fair without the station being there, the extra peak services on the Maynooth line wouldn’t really have been possible due to conflicts at Connolly. On that basis I don’t agree that it was a waste of money, given that they are pretty much jammed.

It also serves the south Docklands via the Samuel Beckett Bridge.

My understanding is that the NTA are talking about moving the station east and south to a site adjacent to Spencer Dock LUAS stop on Mayor Street.

This also would facilitate a connection to the Northern Line and the line through Drumcondra, but would mean people heading south of the river would have a longer walk. Again DU being shoved further back sadly.

The NTA are pushing ahead with a €7bn investment between now and 2027 including Metro, DART extensions and BusConnects. I'd imagine they are fairly aware that all of that may not make it through so are doing what they can with limited resources until then. Sweating the current GDA rail network until it breaks makes reasonable sense and expanding DART services to the point that the DART tunnel becomes a total necessity until then.

LXFlyer

marno21 wrote: »

The NTA are pushing ahead with a €7bn investment between now and 2027 including Metro, DART extensions and BusConnects. I'd imagine they are fairly aware that all of that may not make it through so are doing what they can with limited resources until then. Sweating the current GDA rail network until it breaks makes reasonable sense and expanding DART services to the point that the DART tunnel becomes a total necessity until then.

Well I think it’s fairer to say that they potentially are investing that much. Until I see physical work starting, I’m afraid I’ll be bound by the maxim that paper never refused ink. We’ve had so many false dawns at this stage.

I remain to be convinced that BusConnects will happen in the scale the NTA think - when the reality of having to change instead of having a direct bus to the city centre actually sinks in with people, I think you could see significant opposition.

Similarly the scale of the CPO that they’re hinting at I suspect will end up being bogged down in the courts for ages. So I don’t share your confidence I’m afraid.

Where I think it will work is in developing orbital options.

blanch152

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well I think it’s fairer to say that they potentially are investing that much. Until I see physical work starting, I’m afraid I’ll be bound by the maxim that paper never refused ink. We’ve had so many false dawns at this stage.

I remain to be convinced that BusConnects will happen in the scale the NTA think - when the reality of having to change instead of having a direct bus to the city centre actually sinks in with people, I think you could see significant opposition.

Similarly the scale of the CPO that they’re hinting at I suspect will end up being bogged down in the courts for ages. So I don’t share your confidence I’m afraid.

Where I think it will work is in developing orbital options.

I don't have much faith in BusConnects either. The loss of on-street parking to shops and businesses and the loss of parking revenue to Dublin City Council will also hamper it as well as the issues you outline.

blanch152

LXFlyer wrote: »

To be fair without the station being there, the extra peak services on the Maynooth line wouldn’t really have been possible due to conflicts at Connolly. On that basis I don’t agree that it was a waste of money, given that they are pretty much jammed.

It also serves the south Docklands via the Samuel Beckett Bridge.

My understanding is that the NTA are talking about moving the station east and south to a site adjacent to Spencer Dock LUAS stop on Mayor Street.

This also would facilitate a connection to the Northern Line and the line through Drumcondra, but would mean people heading south of the river would have a longer walk. Again DU being shoved further back sadly.

Is there no possibility of taking it across the river on a new bridge to put it within walking distance of Grand Canal Dock station?

LXFlyer

blanch152 wrote: »

Is there no possibility of taking it across the river on a new bridge to put it within walking distance of Grand Canal Dock station?

Zilch.

Sam Russell

LXFlyer wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Is there no possibility of taking it across the river on a new bridge to put it within walking distance of Grand Canal Dock station?

Zilch.

I would not put it that high at all.

Grandeeod

LXFlyer wrote: »

Zilch.

Funnily enough, prior to the Interconnector/DU idea, IE did consider a bridge across the river towards GCD. It was in the 90s and before the Google HQ.

Sam Russell

Grandeeod wrote: »

Funnily enough, prior to the Interconnector/DU idea, IE did consider a bridge across the river towards GCD. It was in the 90s and before the Google HQ.

I think they were going to divert the Dart down it as well.

Grandeeod

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think they were going to divert the Dart down it as well.

They were indeed.

roadmaster

ongarboy wrote: »

Is it really only 1500 passengers a day? 100s get off my train alone each morning that arrives in at 8:48am. And any of the departing trains in the evening before 6:30pm are standing room only. I'd have thought many more were using it daily.

Had a meeting in IFSC at 9am so got the 7:40am train in from Dunboyne to docklands. When it left the park and ride it was packed with no seating. When we got to Castleknock we where packed in like sardines. Friday would usually be a slow day for communting and the train was wedged as i said. There is something odd about the number they are usuing

markpb

roadmaster wrote: »

Had a meeting in IFSC at 9am so got the 7:40am train in from Dunboyne to docklands. When it left the park and ride it was packed with no seating. When we got to Castleknock we where packed in like sardines. Friday would usually be a slow day for communting and the train was wedged as i said. There is something odd about the number they are usuing

Maybe the trains are very empty at rush hour and deserted the rest of the day?

roadmaster

markpb wrote: »

Maybe the trains are very empty at rush hour and deserted the rest of the day?

Is that not all public transport in general. Have at look at bus eireanns buses between 10 and 3

D Trent

A rail project with no funding or timeline has stopped construction of a Dublin office block
https://fora.ie/dart-underground-office-sandwith-4049084-Jun2018/

"It added that the location will be an “extremely critical hub” for the transport project because it would house a tunnel to link all rail, Dart and Luas services in the capital."

How would a station on Sandwith street link with Luas? Are there plans for a tram line in this area?
Or does it simply mean link with Luas via another public transport service?

MJohnston

D Trent wrote: »

A rail project with no funding or timeline has stopped construction of a Dublin office block
https://fora.ie/dart-underground-office-sandwith-4049084-Jun2018/

"It added that the location will be an “extremely critical hub” for the transport project because it would house a tunnel to link all rail, Dart and Luas services in the capital."

How would a station on Sandwith street link with Luas? Are there plans for a tram line in this area?
Or does it simply mean link with Luas via another public transport service?

Sounds like a load of CIE waffle.

Officials from Irish Rail met with the developers to discuss modified plans for the office block that would potentially safeguard the future of the Dart Underground project, but a compromise was never reached.

I can almost visualise just how unhelpful IR were likely to have been in this meeting.

salmocab

D Trent wrote: »

A rail project with no funding or timeline has stopped construction of a Dublin office block
https://fora.ie/dart-underground-office-sandwith-4049084-Jun2018/

"It added that the location will be an “extremely critical hub” for the transport project because it would house a tunnel to link all rail, Dart and Luas services in the capital."

How would a station on Sandwith street link with Luas? Are there plans for a tram line in this area?
Or does it simply mean link with Luas via another public transport service?

Might mean a pedestrian tunnel linking them all including the metro, maybe.

Grandeeod

MJohnston wrote: »

Sounds like a load of CIE waffle.






I can almost visualise just how unhelpful IR were likely to have been in this meeting.

Its not CIE waffle. The site was an integral part of the original DU project which was well advanced. Had the Government funded the CPO aspect of the project, it wouldn't be an issue. The developer jumped on the opportunity to build, after this particular site was a victim of the Governments failure to proceed with a fairly cheap next stage of the project. There are lots more examples coming despite the so called "redesign" of DU.

MJohnston

Grandeeod wrote: »

Its not CIE waffle. The site was an integral part of the original DU project which was well advanced. Had the Government funded the CPO aspect of the project, it wouldn't be an issue. The developer jumped on the opportunity to build, after this particular site was a victim of the Governments failure to proceed with a fairly cheap next stage of the project. There are lots more examples coming despite the so called "redesign" of DU.

I meant the "house a tunnel to link all rail, Dart and Luas services in the capital" bit sounded like waffle.

Honestly, I'm glad we didn't get to the CPO stage, because then we'd be left with a bunch of permanently (or as permanent as can be while waiting for a project like DU to never happen) derelict sites around the city - something Dublin doesn't need more of.

CatInABox

MJohnston wrote: »

I meant the "house a tunnel to link all rail, Dart and Luas services in the capital" bit sounded like waffle.

Honestly, I'm glad we didn't get to the CPO stage, because then we'd be left with a bunch of permanently (or as permanent as can be while waiting for a project like DU to never happen) derelict sites around the city - something Dublin doesn't need more of.

I can see where they're coming from though, linking all of the rail in the city was the objective originally, not of the Pearse Street stop obviously, but of the tunnel overall.

Back when Dart Underground was the front runner, and Metrolink had been sent back to the drawing board, Dart underground was going to be the main interchange tunnel.

lucernarian

MJohnston wrote: »

I meant the "house a tunnel to link all rail, Dart and Luas services in the capital" bit sounded like waffle.

Honestly, I'm glad we didn't get to the CPO stage, because then we'd be left with a bunch of permanently (or as permanent as can be while waiting for a project like DU to never happen) derelict sites around the city - something Dublin doesn't need more of.

That's a pretty myopic approach - the size of these sites are fairly small. Unlike MetroLink's need to acquire a large site somewhere for the tunnel portal(s), CIE already has access to the land required for this and simply needs land access for station boxes.

CIE do have bad examples of derilict land, like beside Conyngham Road but I'd take a small derilict site near Pearse Station over hamstringing the most important rail project in the country's history.

MJohnston

lucernarian wrote: »

That's a pretty myopic approach - the size of these sites are fairly small. Unlike MetroLink's need to acquire a large site somewhere for the tunnel portal(s), CIE already has access to the land required for this and simply needs land access for station boxes.

CIE do have bad examples of derilict land, like beside Conyngham Road but I'd take a small derilict site near Pearse Station over hamstringing the most important rail project in the country's history.

But this is my point - there's no actual governmental importance assigned to DU, so it remains off the next 10-20 years worth of infrastructure plans. Additionally, the longer it fails to exist, and other changes in Dublin's infrastructure occur (such as MetroLink), the less important the project will become. Long story short - for me DU just doesn't seem anywhere near likely to happen in the next 20 years, and that is basically a death sentence for it.

Meanwhile, a prime 2600sqm site right beside one of the main rail stations in the city, in a high demand area near to both the city centre CBD and the Docklands, is now going to remain derelict forever because of this. (One thing I'll say is myopic - the height of that proposed office block, it should have been 9-10 stories).

And it's really disappointing that CIE couldn't sit down with the building planners and work out a way to incorporate plans for a DU station into that building's design (similar to how Mater hospital and parts of Dublin Airport were built to accommodate future MetroLink stations).

lucernarian

MJohnston wrote: »

But this is my point - there's no actual governmental importance assigned to DU, so it remains off the next 10-20 years worth of infrastructure plans. Additionally, the longer it fails to exist, and other changes in Dublin's infrastructure occur (such as MetroLink), the less important the project will become. Long story short - for me DU just doesn't seem anywhere near likely to happen in the next 20 years, and that is basically a death sentence for it.

Meanwhile, a prime 2600sqm site right beside one of the main rail stations in the city, in a high demand area near to both the city centre CBD and the Docklands, is now going to remain derelict forever because of this. (One thing I'll say is myopic - the height of that proposed office block, it should have been 9-10 stories).

And it's really disappointing that CIE couldn't sit down with the building planners and work out a way to incorporate plans for a DU station into that building's design (similar to how Mater hospital and parts of Dublin Airport were built to accommodate future MetroLink stations).

If they are forced to terminate a line there, the site requirements will be larger than if a mere station box was to be built. Also worth noting the Dart Underground station boxes would be a lot bigger than anything envisiaged for the current and historical proposed metro schemes in Dublin.

I don't think Dart Underground will be made less useful by what MetroLink can offer, barring the indirect impact caused by the Airport Spur becoming less important. Along the route of MetroLink, there is not much land zoned residential but underdeveloped or undeveloped, compared to the commuter rail network (Leixlip north and Kishogue are two along Kildare and Maynooth lines for instance). With the ongoing pressure on housing in the GDA, solutions that enable new neighbourhoods etc. have to be prioritised more into the future.

There's nothing to say that MetroLink would somehow cannibalise DU's potential.

MJohnston

lucernarian wrote: »

If they are forced to terminate a line there, the site requirements will be larger than if a mere station box was to be built. Also worth noting the Dart Underground station boxes would be a lot bigger than anything envisiaged for the current and historical proposed metro schemes in Dublin.

I don't think Dart Underground will be made less useful by what MetroLink can offer, barring the indirect impact caused by the Airport Spur becoming less important. Along the route of MetroLink, there is not much land zoned residential but underdeveloped or undeveloped, compared to the commuter rail network (Leixlip north and Kishogue are two along Kildare and Maynooth lines for instance). With the ongoing pressure on housing in the GDA, solutions that enable new neighbourhoods etc. have to be prioritised more into the future.


There's nothing to say that MetroLink would somehow cannibalise DU's potential.

MetroLink is unlikely to be the only change to transport infrastructure in Dublin in the next 20 years. The very nature of commuting is likely to dramatically change even without any additional transport services being built. But even just the planned existence of MetroLink is already reshaping the future of rail in the city - there's a lot more focus on 'working around' DU, like with the PPT shifting from being a curio to a legitimate functioning cog in the greater system, or with the plans for a big interchange at Glasnevin-Whitworth.



Personally I would love to see DU built, but I'm pragmatic enough to see that a project like that doesn't get pushed back by so many different governments, in a multitude of different economic environments, without being intrinsically toxic for some reason. Thus I just can't foresee any conditions under which it would somehow ever be funded.

lucernarian

MJohnston wrote: »

MetroLink is unlikely to be the only change to transport infrastructure in Dublin in the next 20 years. The very nature of commuting is likely to dramatically change even without any additional transport services being built. But even just the planned existence of MetroLink is already reshaping the future of rail in the city - there's a lot more focus on 'working around' DU, like with the PPT shifting from being a curio to a legitimate functioning cog in the greater system, or with the plans for a big interchange at Glasnevin-Whitworth.



Personally I would love to see DU built, but I'm pragmatic enough to see that a project like that doesn't get pushed back by so many different governments, in a multitude of different economic environments, without being intrinsically toxic for some reason. Thus I just can't foresee any conditions under which it would somehow ever be funded.

The price tag is the biggest issue here - I suspect the objections from some East Wall residents were overblown and certainly are dwarfed by what Na Fianna turned into. I suspect the union issues surrounding CIÉ has permanently dirtied its bib. Also, the Greens and Social Democrats seem to be the most vocal about DU and its merits - it's not something that ever captured the imagination of the larger parties or the public at large, since the Luas was built between Heuston and Connolly.

MJohnston

lucernarian wrote: »

The price tag is the biggest issue here - I suspect the objections from some East Wall residents were overblown and certainly are dwarfed by what Na Fianna turned into. I suspect the union issues surrounding CIÉ has permanently dirtied its bib. Also, the Greens and Social Democrats seem to be the most vocal about DU and its merits - it's not something that ever captured the imagination of the larger parties or the public at large, since the Luas was built between Heuston and Connolly.

I think price tag is certainly a general issue with most big infra projects, but I think there's something about CIE that has just added that extra bit of bad taste needed for DU to be lower priority than, well basically every other piece of public expenditure.

CatInABox

While I fully agree with the decision to block the development at Sandwith St, it pretty poor form that the company that owns the land will now get hit with a massive levy due to them not being able to develop it.

I'd hope that common sense will break out and the levy dropped on this site, otherwise I'd say that a lawsuit will be filed in short order.

Sam Russell

CatInABox wrote: »

While I fully agree with the decision to block the development at Sandwith St, it pretty poor form that the company that owns the land will now get hit with a massive levy due to them not being able to develop it.

I'd hope that common sense will break out and the levy dropped on this site, otherwise I'd say that a lawsuit will be filed in short order.

No, the site was bought in 2016 in full knowledge of the DU plan for the site. It was an opportune purchase to benefit from the CPO potential. They could avoid the levy by selling the site.

roadmaster

With the amount of housing developments under way from nass,celbridge over to dunboyne and so on i hope the dart expansion is pushed quicker as we will see a proper transport crisis for the the Dublin region then

BonnieSituation

We're seeing aproper transport crisis already. DU and Dart expansion are already 10-15 years too late.

marno21

BonnieSituation wrote: »

We're seeing aproper transport crisis already. DU and Dart expansion are already 10-15 years too late.

And still at best 10-15 years away. Sad really, but not surprising in any way.

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

And still at best 10-15 years away. Sad really, but not surprising in any way.

Realistically, how quickly could the dart expansion be up and running? Will it have to go through the same process as the Metrolink, with a public consultation, and then planning application?

roadmaster

BonnieSituation wrote: »

We're seeing aproper transport crisis already. DU and Dart expansion are already 10-15 years too late.

Compare to whats coming down the road with the population growth in the GDA we are no where near as bad as it will get

marno21

CatInABox wrote: »

Realistically, how quickly could the dart expansion be up and running? Will it have to go through the same process as the Metrolink, with a public consultation, and then planning application?

It doesn't appear so, we're being told that Balbriggan DART extension will start in 2020 and I haven't seen any publication relating to it (I'm open to correction here).

bk

Well if the rumoured order of a large number of new hybrid trains by Irish Rail is true, then we could see a big increase in the number of trains serving these routes in the next 5 to 10 years.

While of course preferable to electrify these lines, the new trains should allow them to bring new service online quicker then needing to wait for design, planning and construction of electric wires and junction improvements would take.

Consonata

bk wrote: »

Well if the rumoured order of a large number of new hybrid trains by Irish Rail is true, then we could see a big increase in the number of trains serving these routes in the next 5 to 10 years.

While of course preferable to electrify these lines, the new trains should allow them to bring new service online quicker then needing to wait for design, planning and construction of electric wires and junction improvements would take.

It is rather short term thinking though, especially considering we should be hoping to phase out Diesel/Petrol use by 2030/2040

Sam Russell

If they are buying new trains, they should be battery/electric.

bk

Consonata wrote: »

It is rather short term thinking though, especially considering we should be hoping to phase out Diesel/Petrol use by 2030/2040

Sorry perhaps your misunderstand what the term "hybrid" means here in relation to trains?

The better term is Bi-mode trains, these are electric trains that operate 100% off electricity where there are overhead electric wiring (i.e. like the DART), but can also run on Diesel where the wiring isn't installed yet. They can even transition between electric and diesel during a journey.

The idea being that these new trains can be rolled out within the next 4 to 5 years. They can covert to 100% electric running as the wiring is put in place over the next 10 to 20 years.

Seems like a good idea to me, only downside is that they are more costly then EMU's, but given how slow it is to rollout infrastructure here in Ireland, I think it maybe a wise decision, if a bit of a waste of money in the long term.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

If they are buying new trains, they should be battery/electric.

That would be great, but dual mode battery electric trains aren't really a proven tech yet. There are a few prototypes around, but I'm not sure they are really good enough to cover the required distances yet.

Diesel/Electrics bi-modes would be the "safe" bet given that is what the UK is doing. So some easy buys there.

riddlinrussell

I imagine another benefit of the bi-mode would be a bit of added operational flexibility if in future Cork/Limerick/Galway areas got some level of electrification and there was a need to transfer some rolling stock? Probably not an immediate concern I admit....

LeinsterDub

Has there been any progress made on this ? I've not seeing anything official since February

LXFlyer

Nothing as yet.

Chivito550

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Has there been any progress made on this ? I've not seeing anything official since February

Progress? What does that word mean?

markpb

Chivito550 wrote: »

Progress? What does that word mean?

Progress usually means a new consultants report is about to be commissioned, about to be published or about to be discredited.

loyatemu

worth noting that the BusConnects report say there will be a Dart every 10 minutes between Bray and Howth Jct (which we knew about) and every 20 minutes to Howth, Malahide and Greystones (which in the case of Greystones is new information).

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

worth noting that the BusConnects report say there will be a Dart every 10 minutes between Bray and Howth Jct (which we knew about) and every 20 minutes to Howth, Malahide and Greystones (which in the case of Greystones is new information).

It cannot be every 20 mins to Greystones - that’s far too tight without a passing loop, and would not allow for minimum turnaround times.

That has to be a typo.

It’ll still be every 30 mins I would safely say.

CatInABox

LXFlyer wrote: »

It cannot be every 20 mins to Greystones - that’s far too tight without a passing loop, and would not allow for minimum turnaround times.

That has to be a typo.

It’ll still be every 30 mins I would safely say.

I'd assume that they have some sort of plan for it, it's been a known problem for ages now. Perhaps they plan to build a passing loop in there somewhere.

loyatemu

LXFlyer wrote: »

It cannot be every 20 mins to Greystones - that’s far too tight without a passing loop, and would not allow for minimum turnaround times.

That has to be a typo.

It’ll still be every 30 mins I would safely say.

local councillors met the NTA about BusConnects; the NTA said they have engineers looking into options.

xper

loyatemu wrote: »

local councillors met the NTA about BusConnects; the NTA said they have engineers looking into options.

Hard to see what options exist that don't involve lots of rock blasting. You could maybe put in a passing loop about halfway around the head (here) but co-ordinating every train passing another here all day every day would seem a little challenging. Would there be measures they could take to increase protection on the existing line so that the speed limits can be increased to make 20 minute frequency possible?

ted1

bk wrote: »

Consonata wrote: »

It is rather short term thinking though, especially considering we should be hoping to phase out Diesel/Petrol use by 2030/2040

Sorry perhaps your misunderstand what the term "hybrid" means here in relation to trains?

The better term is Bi-mode trains, these are electric trains that operate 100% off electricity where there are overhead electric wiring (i.e. like the DART), but can also run on Diesel where the wiring isn't installed yet. They can even transition between electric and diesel during a journey.

The idea being that these new trains can be rolled out within the next 4 to 5 years. They can covert to 100% electric running as the wiring is put in place over the next 10 to 20 years.

Seems like a good idea to me, only downside is that they are more costly then EMU's, but given how slow it is to rollout infrastructure here in Ireland, I think it maybe a wise decision, if a bit of a waste of money in the long term.

The battery will have degraded over 10-20 years to the point where it’s nit useable

marno21

Is it feasible to double track the portions of track either side of Bray Head and perhaps xper's solution above, although blasting there would be challenging and could do more harm to the alignment than good, aside from being very expensive.

LXFlyer

CatInABox wrote: »

I'd assume that they have some sort of plan for it, it's been a known problem for ages now. Perhaps they plan to build a passing loop in there somewhere.

loyatemu wrote: »

local councillors met the NTA about BusConnects; the NTA said they have engineers looking into options.

The chances of it happening in the timeframe that the BusConnects plan is supposed to be implemented are exceptionally slim.

At a minimum it would require a passing loop, the only location suitable for one being in the Redford area, nowhere else.

That's going to require a lot of infrastructural works, including resignalling, and the additional track workd. There has been no indication that any funding has been set aside for this. It's not something that can happen in a short timeframe.

I also think it would be very challenging operationally to maintain that level of frequency south of Bray as it would leave very little scope for recovery of late running services. With an intensively used single track you have to have redundancy built in to allow for this and it would be very tight.