State-owned Irish electric car?

Yixian

I was asking myself what kind of new industries would be suitable for Ireland to pursue in aims of building new industry, creating jobs and fueling the economy. An obvious choice is renewable energy and nuclear power - Ireland could quite easily reduce it's reliance on oil from the near 100% it is now to a few mere percent if it were to replace coal stations with nuclear ones and makes a serious effort to build wind farms around the country and line the coasts with tidal power generators - and it could then sell the surplus back to nearby countries like Wales and soon potentially independent Scotland.

This led me to the idea of a state owned car company producing electric cars for Ireland. Picture a single parent company owning two brands, one economy one luxury, of cutting edge electric engines. Technology from the best minds in our universities built into Irish designed cars for the 21st century here in Ireland.

Countries like Britain and France are so large it is difficult to implement nationwide upgrades to infrastructure as it would be in Ireland. The required refueling stations could be built around the country in a fraction of the time they could be in other larger European countries, as well as the US. Ireland could create it's own market for mainstream electric cars, produce them for itself and then when other countries have inevitably caught on and caught up, export them.

The technology may be lead by countries like Japan, Germany and the US but until they have 90%> of their fueling stations equipped with the ability to recharge electric cars, their electric card industries will remain fledgling - Ireland's biggest advantage is matching a high GDP against a small country with a government *theoretically* ( ) capable of rolling out changes in national policy etc. quickly and completely. It should take advantage of that, and to do so would require this hypothetical company to be state owned.

ei.sdraob

just what we need, another state monopoly

ejmaztec

Unfortunately the ESB would be charging over the odds for charging the batteries, and the government would invent a few more taxes to cover the loss of excise duty etc etc...

You'd soon see how "green" they were should electric vehicles outnumber the gas guzzlers.

Yixian

With a nationwide infrastructure for electric cars, the vehicles could be provided for costs similar to current cars, and then the government could tax internal combustion engines and NOT the electric cars, thereby helping to fund the switchover whilst phasing people over to the electrics.

It'd be nice to export something other than stout too >_>

hiorta

The start-up costs would ensure it doesn't get off the ground.
There are no plants producing steel, cabling, upholstery, wheels, tyres and few trained in design and assembly, especially in electric vehicles, moreso in hybrids.

By the time all this was in place and a range of designs that were saleable at a competitive price, the market would be full with established car builders in a monopoly position.

But, this is the kind of innovative thinking that will go a long way to solve the problem.

RobAMerc

considering the motor industry has spent millions and probably 30 yrs trying to make a viable electric car with little success - how do you think we are going to be able to start from scratch and create ones good enough to suffer ourselves never mind pawn off to others.

have you heard of the Trabant, remember how bad Ladas were - these we're the eastern blocks attempts to produce cars - utter sh*te.

this is total dream imo - might as well ask why we don't find a big oil field off the coast and start being a net exporter - fantasy

Yixian

I'm assuming for the sake of this idea that you'd start once the final technicalities of an electric car have been ironed out, that's not too far away.

The edge Ireland would have wouldn't be in producing the technology first but in implementing it nationally first.

I agree the start up costs would be huge though, but a nice idea.

ei.sdraob

The OP made on big mistake

believing its the governemnts job to create enterprise, hell the whole idea sounds like something that would fit right into a communist system (2 types of cars! lada anyone )

If there was a demand for electric cars, a profit to be made and the costs are low the private enterprise would jump in as is happening in Israel and US with electric cars

unfortunately Ireland is uncompetitive and our costs are high, and yes it is the job of the government to lower costs and ensure the nation is competitive

Your proposal is a waste of more of taxmoney, at a time when we are borrowing 400million a week at high interest rates to keep the gravy trains rolling

not to mention that it needs a huge investment in the grid and a cheap source of energy like nuclear, which would never be build in ireland as we are to fracking small minded and selfish

To give an example:
HouseholdA earns 100euro a week
HouseholdA spends 200euro a week
HouseholdA loans the remainder from a loanshark
HouseholdA gets a brightspark to borrow extra 1000euro on an electric car
HouseholdA gets refused more credit as they are in every sense bankrupt

ART6

Can anyone seriously believe that any concievable Irish government could develop and run a commercial company? Anyone who thinks that should take a look at their track record with all the high tech initiative they have introduced. The terms "Piss up" and "Brewery" come to mind.:eek:

Elmo

ART6 wrote: »

Can anyone seriously believe that any concievable Irish government could develop and run a commercial company? Anyone who thinks that should take a look at their track record with all the high tech initiative they have introduced. The terms "Piss up" and "Brewery" come to mind.:eek:

ESB International is one of the best companies in Ireland.

But then there are the others if the gov was to invest in the country they should nationalize all of the communication networks and get private companies to rent space and with the rent used upgrade and maintain the Networks. With some profits going to government but in essence it should be a not for profit semi state body with private companies making their money form businesses and consumers, with VAT being returned to the government.

I think "Piss up" and "Brewery" is a very general statement, and we all know that it is prob one of the things that an Irish Government could do well.

kevteljeur

The OP's premise isn't a bad one, I'd considered the idea myself (as a premise, I mean - I'm in no way placed to make it happen ). In fact, it's a very, very good one. The government wouldn't have to directly own or sponsor the company itself, just to have the required tax-breaks and grants, and to do the same for support industries. It would still be a private company. However, it may not be legal under EU competition rules, and in any case, it's not like the Irish state can actually afford to get into a situation like that.

It's a shame, because I do agree with the OP in that a small country like Ireland with a high dependence on automobiles and imported fuel is very well-placed to lead in this area - if it could promote the industry to take hold. Unfortunately even with the Greens in government now, it's far too radical an idea. These are the people who are trying to promote 'national cleverness' as a vague but crucial element of rebuilding the economy, while not actually knowing how that should happen. Don't expect them to back the next Tesla any time soon.

It actually hurts to have to rain on this parade, I have serious ball-ache for a Tesla Model S (here and here for some perspective - yes, it's a prototype but it genuinely works) and Ireland should really be the country to try and help make it happen in Europe, from supporting infrastructure to unit construction. But it won't be, sadly. This will be the country discussing it as a potentially good idea long after everyone else has moved to electric cars.



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Yixian

The government is naturally clueless about most things, science and tech above all, I really think university based campaigns for projects like this would be a good idea. Before the recession I think in all fairness there were TDs out there who couldn't in a million years think of a decent way to invest irish money themselves but might have been open to such ideas.

Ireland is surely not in a position to lead development when it comes to energy conservation and electric engines, but the countries that are aren't in a position to make electric cars a mainstream alternative to petrol-driven ones.

Picture ESB, Ryanair and some others in a state-sponsored consortium, licensing what tech they have to, importing the parts they can't produce themselves and building the rest on their own. Even if it's just the chassis, producing an iconically Irish car brand that is electric and can be refueled at any station in the country would surely boost the economy no end. If the world were to see Ireland crack the environment-automobile issue, you can bet confidence and interest in the island would soar.


In fact this consortium could also help develop a technological standard for recharging these cars and promote it to the EU as the European standard for the future - can you say, license to print money?


It's not too late, our universities are full of the minds needed to do it, all it takes is a little bravery on the governments part. You've got to spend money to make money, even in a crisis.

kevteljeur

Yixian wrote: »

The government is naturally clueless about most things, science and tech above all, I really think university based campaigns for projects like this would be a good idea. Before the recession I think in all fairness there were TDs out there who couldn't in a million years think of a decent way to invest irish money themselves but might have been open to such ideas.

Ireland is surely not in a position to lead development when it comes to energy conservation and electric engines, but the countries that are aren't in a position to make electric cars a mainstream alternative to petrol-driven ones.

Picture ESB, Ryanair and some others in a state-sponsored consortium, licensing what tech they have to, importing the parts they can't produce themselves and building the rest on their own. Even if it's just the chassis, producing an iconically Irish car brand that is electric and can be refueled at any station in the country would surely boost the economy no end. If the world were to see Ireland crack the environment-automobile issue, you can bet confidence and interest in the island would soar.


In fact this consortium could also help develop a technological standard for recharging these cars and promote it to the EU as the European standard for the future - can you say, license to print money?


It's not too late, our universities are full of the minds needed to do it, all it takes is a little bravery on the governments part. You've got to spend to make money, even in a crisis.

It's a big-hearted idea, but... For example, there is currently an auto-manufacturer's battle (Blu-ray vs. HD DVD, that sort of thing) coming to an end on a technological standard for recharging these cars. We'd be coming to the party years after it's finished, and declaring that we'd like a say in it. We'd basically be importing everything, including knowledge, to build this industry. It would be better to just bring in outside manufacturing to do it, and it would still take many long hard years to achieve it. Beating BMW or Audi to the punch would be nothing short of the sort of miracle that would bring tears to eyes of Steorn's engineers.

Like I say, the heart is in the idea, but none of the realities that it needs.



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ei.sdraob

kevteljeur wrote: »

the sort of miracle that would bring tears to eyes of Steorn's engineers.
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ah yes how our Irish entrepreneurs from Steorn getting on lately?
still claiming they can bypass the law of conservation of energy

ejmaztec

I can't get "O'Rafferty's Motor-car" out of my head now, thanks to this thread.:eek:

eamonnm79

kevteljeur wrote: »

The OP's premise isn't a bad one, I'd considered the idea myself (as a premise, I mean - I'm in no way placed to make it happen ). In fact, it's a very, very good one. The government wouldn't have to directly own or sponsor the company itself, just to have the required tax-breaks and grants, and to do the same for support industries. It would still be a private company. However, it may not be legal under EU competition rules, and in any case, it's not like the Irish state can actually afford to get into a situation like that.


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Its a good Idea and the majority of objections so far are ideological. These people forget about Bord Gais, Bord na Mona, ESB, Dublin Port and many other semi states.
However I think we would be better off starting with something less technical than electric cars.
What else do we import that we could do ourselves?

maninasia

This is the WORST idea I have ever heard. We don't make cars in Ireland, we don't make batteries in Ireland, we don't make electric batteries, we hardly make any car parts, we have stringent anti-pollution laws, our wages are very high, our rates are high. Governments don't make cars (unless they're in the US these days). Look at the Proton from Malaysia..total failure.
Besides the fact that the patents for the key technologies are almost all owned by motor giants in Japan and innovative companies in the US.

However it is not far off from the government's own hare brained ideas....just a few days ago they were trying to tout some optical switching technology from an Irish company as part of their 'green energy' initiative (yeah sure, we have a green industry in Ireland because we import wind turbines from Denmark )..then promptly handed them a massive contract that will cost yet more millions of tax payer money.

kevteljeur

maninasia wrote: »

This is the WORST idea I have ever heard. We don't make cars in Ireland, we don't make batteries in Ireland, we don't make electric batteries, we hardly make any car parts, we have stringent anti-pollution laws, our wages are very high, our rates are high. Governments don't make cars (unless they're in the US these days). Look at the Proton from Malaysia..total failure.
Besides the fact that the patents for the key technologies are almost all owned by motor giants in Japan and innovative companies in the US.

However it is not far off from the government's own hare brained ideas....just a few days ago they were trying to tout some optical switching technology from an Irish company as part of their 'green energy' initiative (yeah sure, we have a green industry in Ireland because we import wind turbines from Denmark )..then promptly handed them a massive contract that will cost yet more millions of tax payer money.

That's the point I'm taking from this. It's a good idea in theory which is unworkable in practice because of the obstacles. And at the end of the day, it requires people, and at this scale, the 'people problems' multiply so much that it becomes impossible to even start the process (and when I say 'people problems', I think we can safely include the current government in that).

eamonnm79 wrote: »

Its a good Idea and the majority of objections so far are ideological. These people forget about Bord Gais, Bord na Mona, ESB, Dublin Port and many other semi states.
However I think we would be better off starting with something less technical than electric cars.
What else do we import that we could do ourselves?

And I think this is really the key here. Making cars is starting too big. But definitely, we should start manufacturing for self-reliance, and maybe some export. Selling National Cleverness abroad isn't solving the problem that just about everything short of beef* and butter* gets imported as manufactured items, and this would be cheaper if raw materials were imported and then used here to build more complex items.

Then again, economy of scale has always meant that many things are actually cheaper to import than to manufacture here, so I could be talking rubbish.




* Yes, I'm exaggerating here. We do have decent, if limited, food manufacturing here - you'll find that even Aldi's better better line of products are manufactured here, not to mention all the other chains. But other than food? Hmm... Help me out here. Stats please?

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eamonnm79

I Think turning ireland into an organic island is a good idea.

The price premium paid for organic by a growing number of consumers means we could target this niche.
It would require government backing, and there is the whole CAP to work out but I think it could be done.

dvpower

eamonnm79 wrote: »

I Think turning ireland into an organic island is a good idea.

The price premium paid for organic by a growing number of consumers means we could target this niche.
It would require government backing, and there is the whole CAP to work out but I think it could be done.

But Organic food is no healthier, study finds. That's both of Ireland's brand new industries crashed already.

kevteljeur

dvpower wrote: »

But Organic food is no healthier, study finds. That's both of Ireland's brand new industries crashed already.

This is the New Irish Economy Brain-storming thread! Ideas born and die here. Someone give Steorn a shout, this could go somewhere!



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ei.sdraob

eamonnm79 wrote: »

I Think turning ireland into an organic island is a good idea.

The price premium paid for organic by a growing number of consumers means we could target this niche.
It would require government backing, and there is the whole CAP to work out but I think it could be done.

like you said its a niche

its basically a marketing scam to make feel consumers feel good and dish out more money


and its neither nutritianally different from normal food as verified by studies (was front page bbc news few days back)

Elmo

I think if we go down the road of the Electrical Car it would have to be in association with another interest European country, hopefully not the Britain as we need to build much closer connections to the Eurozone our obession with Britain and America needs to stop, especially when both trading partners don't have the same currency.

The government could employ many of the people in the building industry to work on the build of such cars.

Outside of this very radical idea, which is open to ridicule (often the best ideas are, the inventors of the telephone didn't want to call it a telephone in their designs in fear of 19th century ridicule), I would suggest more farms working on Petrol substitutes, ones which can be gathered without a huge amount of power being used, thus making the product worthless and lacking the even the power required to gather it. I am not sure how the idea of the Sugra factory in Carlow becoming a producer of bio-fuel would have work but prehaps this is a good idea for the farms that have lost the beat industry in recent years.

Farms should try to run their farms on wind electricity as should some smaller companies.

I think Bord Na Mona's moves are interesting and may help with future employment in the country.

The IDA need to make Ireland attract to outside investment, but also for the entrepreneur, I think over the last 10 years there has been a stead move toward "foreign direct investment" as apposed to "entrepreneurial investment".

Purple Gorilla

ART6 wrote: »

Can anyone seriously believe that any concievable Irish government could develop and run a commercial company?

CIE (Incl. Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus, Dart, Iarnrod Eireann)
RTE
ESB (Incl. ESB International & ESB Telecoms)
Bord Gáis
VHI Healthcare
An Post
DAA (Incl. Aer Rianta International which is very successful)

All very successful State-Sponsored Bodies which the government developed and runs.

Elmo

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

CIE (Incl. Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus, Dart, Iarnrod Eireann)
RTE
ESB (Incl. ESB International & ESB Telecoms)
Bord Gáis
VHI Healthcare
An Post
DAA (Incl. Aer Rianta International which is very successful)

All very successful State-Sponsored Bodies which the government developed and runs.

Many of which are/were monopolies. CIE needs competition with Dublin Bus, I wouldn't like to see the rail roads used by private operators.
RTE has the licence fee, and could do more for international companies, however they have had the finance department refuse them certain things e.g. keeping their share in cablelink which would have been a worthwhile option for them.

Macha

Personally, I think the state should be agnostic about what type of infrastructure is rolled out (battery-replacement or recharging or a mix of both) and just create the right regulatory framework to attract companies here.

ESB are already getting involved with electric cars so they should just be left to compete with the other players.

Worst case scenario: ESB get a hold of an EV infrastructure monopoly and we end up with their union holding another state asset to ransom.

Purple Gorilla

Elmo wrote: »

Many of which are/were monopolies. CIE needs competition with Dublin Bus, I wouldn't like to see the rail roads used by private operators.
RTE has the licence fee, and could do more for international companies, however they have had the finance department refuse them certain things e.g. keeping their share in cablelink which would have been a worthwhile option for them.

I'm not disputing that they have/had a monopoly, but my point was they were developed and run well by the government

leninbenjamin

Elmo wrote: »

I think if we go down the road of the Electrical Car it would have to be in association with another interest European country, hopefully not the Britain as we need to build much closer connections to the Eurozone our obession with Britain and America needs to stop, especially when both trading partners don't have the same currency.

The government could employ many of the people in the building industry to work on the build of such cars.

Utter fantasy. Ireland doesn't have the infrastructure to support the heavy goods inflow needed. It doesn't have a large enough workforce to be able to specialise properly in the niche of electric cars, and culturally speaking we don't have the entrepreneurial spirit to see a project like this to fruition.

Elmo wrote: »

Outside of this very radical idea, which is open to ridicule (often the best ideas are, the inventors of the telephone didn't want to call it a telephone in their designs in fear of 19th century ridicule), I would suggest more farms working on Petrol substitutes, ones which can be gathered without a huge amount of power being used, thus making the product worthless and lacking the even the power required to gather it. I am not sure how the idea of the Sugra factory in Carlow becoming a producer of bio-fuel would have work but prehaps this is a good idea for the farms that have lost the beat industry in recent years.

Ireland does not have the land mass to make this cost effective.

Elmo wrote: »

The IDA need to make Ireland attract to outside investment, but also for the entrepreneur, I think over the last 10 years there has been a stead move toward "foreign direct investment" as apposed to "entrepreneurial investment".

see my statement about entrepreneurial spirit above. FDI was and frankly still is the mainstay because Ireland simply does not have the innovation, the technical know how or the drive to make the majority of homegrown enterprises successful. Most small business owners in this country barely understand how to maintain adequate levels of cash-flow. A lot of business that failed in this recession did so, not because of the falling demand, but for naiveté on the owners who had failed to turn a good product into a good business model. While i really want to see more investment in Irish businesses, we really need both educational and cultural reform (on top of the necessary economic reforms) to see a return.

Elmo

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Utter fantasy. Ireland doesn't have the infrastructure to support the heavy goods inflow needed. It doesn't have a large enough workforce to be able to specialise properly in the niche of electric cars, and culturally speaking we don't have the entrepreneurial spirit to see a project like this to fruition.



Ireland does not have the land mass to make this cost effective.



see my statement about entrepreneurial spirit above. FDI was and frankly still is the mainstay because Ireland simply does not have the innovation, the technical know how or the drive to make the majority of homegrown enterprises successful. Most small business owners in this country barely understand how to maintain adequate levels of cash-flow. A lot of business that failed in this recession did so, not because of the falling demand, but for naiveté on the owners who had failed to turn a good product into a good business model. While i really want to see more investment in Irish businesses, we really need both educational and cultural reform (on top of the necessary economic reforms) to see a return.

Why are you arguing things that I stated in my post? Most of what I said was if .....

Bio-fuels if viable.
A move towards much more investment towards entrepreneurial spirit which also included education etc.
A move a way from foreign currencies with more focus on Eurozone countries.

leninbenjamin

Elmo wrote: »

Why are you arguing things that I stated in my post? Most of what I said was if .....

because you were still being overly optimistic even at that.

Elmo

leninbenjamin wrote: »

because you were still being overly optimistic even at that.

I would rather be in between optimism and pessimism than being totally pessimistic like most of this country.