Stepson out of jail, what to do?

weird

paperclip2 wrote: »

My brother was an alcoholic at 15, what would have made him happy then would have been an unending supply of drink and no-one nagging him to please stop drinking. What do you think my parents did?

As for living in misery you would be so surprised at how many people chose to live there because its safer than changing and making the effort to do those things that would make them truly happy. In my work I see it every day. Literally every day and it is so sad.

I agree completely but why do you think they are like that?

CDfm

weird wrote: »

You need to get this kid help. get him in a program because he is in pain, out of control, and lacks any skills to properly care for himself.

So suggest a program and suggest how to get him into it.

paperclip2

weird wrote: »

I agree completely but why do you think they are like that?

Why do peope live in misery? Some reasons are fear, anger, a sense of entitlement and frustration, lack of patience, lack of self-awareness and a feeling of helplessness.
People can think themselves into powerlessness and then expect the outside world to 'fix' it all for them. Its a bit like being locked in a room, the lighbulb goes and then expecting someone in the house next door to fix the light for you. Sometimes you just have to do it for yourself, and if you need a hand, ask for it honestly and accept the help given with gratitude, not a sense of entitlement.

EDIT
Weird you keep saying he was out of the house at 15, from reading Mirwillbeback's posts it seems like he was provided with alternative accomodation and extra loving support, i.e. his grandparents and that he was happy to be there. This is common strategy in cases like this. Its a way where everyone can get some distance and reflective space without being in one anothers face. The idea being that family relationships can then be worked on out of the pressure cooker. But again it depends on the young lad engaging. He didnt. Also try keeping anyone, especially a 15 year old boy in a place they dont want to be. Short of barred windows and locked doors you're at nothing.

weird

CDfm wrote: »

So suggest a program and suggest how to get him into it.

http://www.na-ireland.org/

I'd start here:

http://www.na-ireland.org/nameetings/east/dublin/

here are some meetings. This would be the place to start out and find some resources for treatment.

http://www.addictionireland.ie

There are also support services out there for family members of addicted people.

I'd also speak to your GP about treatment programs.

...but first the OP has to want to help and right now he does not want to. He just want to wash his hands of him... just like he did when he was 15 and is looking for our advice on how to do it.

weird

paperclip2 wrote: »

Why do peope live in misery? Some reasons are fear, anger, a sense of entitlement and frustration, lack of patience, lack of self-awareness and a feeling of helplessness.
People can think themselves into powerlessness and then expect the outside world to 'fix' it all for them. Its a bit like being locked in a room, the lighbulb goes and then expecting someone in the house next door to fix the light for you. Sometimes you just have to do it for yourself, and if you need a hand, ask for it honestly and accept the help given with gratitude, not a sense of entitlement.

Sure, those are all feelings caused by dependancy but not he source. The fact is many people who abuse narcotics and alchohal d so because something was wrong at home. In this case no one could leave home at 15 and everything is "okay".

From here:

The cohort was also characterised by a high level of familial problems. In all, 78% of subjects reported some form of familial inadequacy

http://www.addictionireland.ie/research_training/publication101.asp

These problems start at home, it's been common knowlege for quite some time.

weird

paperclip2 wrote: »

Why do peope live in misery? Some reasons are fear, anger, a sense of entitlement and frustration, lack of patience, lack of self-awareness and a feeling of helplessness.
People can think themselves into powerlessness and then expect the outside world to 'fix' it all for them. Its a bit like being locked in a room, the lighbulb goes and then expecting someone in the house next door to fix the light for you. Sometimes you just have to do it for yourself, and if you need a hand, ask for it honestly and accept the help given with gratitude, not a sense of entitlement.

EDIT
Weird you keep saying he was out of the house at 15, from reading Mirwillbeback's posts it seems like he was provided with alternative accomodation and extra loving support, i.e. his grandparents and that he was happy to be there. This is common strategy in cases like this. Its a way where everyone can get some distance and reflective space without being in one anothers face. The idea being that family relationships can then be worked on out of the pressure cooker. But again it depends on the young lad engaging. He didnt. Also try keeping anyone, especially a 15 year old boy in a place they dont want to be. Short of barred windows and locked doors you're at nothing.

No, he was pushed out of his home where his mother lives. Away from his family. Grandparents are not parents.

If my son was out in the street I'd be searching day and night until I found him and if I had to I would lock him up I would. I'd watch him 24/7 if I had to and go on the dole if I had to. There is no excuse for that whatsoever. Thing is my son doesn't act like this at all because I have always been there for him and been involved, no matter what.

At a young age, this kid's father dies. He was traumitized, but bounced back a little. Maybe the other brother was too young at the time? Maybe he became the little man of the house... then the OP steps in and starts running things and he gets pushed to one side. Now he's abandoned twice. First by his father's death and then by his mother when she takes up with the op. He acts out, and they just keep pushing him further and further away. He then takes up using heroin to deal with the emotional pain. Things get more out of control... and here we are. OP, tough love hasn't worked so far... maybe it's time to change strategy?

OP, maybe this "drug gang" is his family because he doesn't have another one?

So when I ask the OP what he could have done differently I mean it.

mirwillbeback

weird wrote: »

If my son was out in the street I'd be searching day and night until I found him and if i had to I would lock him up. I'd watch him 24/7 if I had to and go on the dole. there is no excuse for that whatsoever.

hope you never have to

CDfm

weird wrote: »

These problems start at home, it's been common knowlege for quite some time.

I think the reality is that its the addicts perception that this is the case-nobody really knows.

weird

mirwillbeback wrote: »

hope you never have to

Me too. There's nothing I wouldn't do for my son. Nothing.

Faith

weird wrote: »

Do you know why people do herion? When you do heroin you nod out, and enter a world void of emotional and physical pain... at least until you come to. He's self medicating and trying to escape the pain.

Pain. Right, let's have a look at that, shall we? The OP said he's been with his gf for 10 years, or since the son was 12. His dad died a few years previously, from cancer, at let's say 9. That's extremely hard for anyone to deal with, particularly a child who won't understand what exactly is going on, but knows enough to be strongly affected by it. Meanwhile, his younger brother was approx. 5 or 6, ergo too young to understand what happened properly and thus may not be as upset by it as an older child.

So, his Dad is dead and his mum is grieving. She probably clung tightly on to the kids to get her through the worst of the pain. Eldest children are generally overprotected anyway, so she was probably constantly there for him, giving him anything he wanted. Let's imagine that he never really dealt properly with the pain of his Dad dying. Then, on the precipice of puberty, a difficult time in anyone's life, his precious mum meets another man, and suddenly he isn't the centre of attention any more. He starts to act out, trying to get her to focus on him as much as she used to. It doesn't work the way he wanted, so he continues to act out more and more, resulting in the downward spiral landing him in prison. He probably sees the OP as trying to replace his Dad, and thinks it means that his Mum has forgotten about his Dad. This would no doubt cause a deep resentment to form. Perhaps any time the OP tried to bond with him, it just caused the son to push him further away as a punishment of sorts for not being his Dad.

So if anyone's issues need to be dealt with, it's the son's, not the OP's. Now of course, that's all purely speculation above, but it's a lot less outlandish than your repeated statements that it's the OPs fault. No 12 year old child will have an easy time accepting a new partner of their parent. Some just deal with it better than others. So maybe if the son got some serious counselling and got to the root of his issues, he could start making progress and sorting his life out.

And weird, you keep saying how the son was pushed out of his house - by the sounds of it, he voluntarily decided to go. I see nothing to indicate that he was banished.

weird

Faith wrote: »

Pain. Right, let's have a look at that, shall we? The OP said he's been with his gf for 10 years, or since the son was 12. His dad died a few years previously, from cancer, at let's say 9. That's extremely hard for anyone to deal with, particularly a child who won't understand what exactly is going on, but knows enough to be strongly affected by it. Meanwhile, his younger brother was approx. 5 or 6, ergo too young to understand what happened properly and thus may not be as upset by it as an older child.

So, his Dad is dead and his mum is grieving. She probably clung tightly on to the kids to get her through the worst of the pain. Eldest children are generally overprotected anyway, so she was probably constantly there for him, giving him anything he wanted. Let's imagine that he never really dealt properly with the pain of his Dad dying. Then, on the precipice of puberty, a difficult time in anyone's life, his precious mum meets another man, and suddenly he isn't the centre of attention any more. He starts to act out, trying to get her to focus on him as much as she used to. It doesn't work the way he wanted, so he continues to act out more and more, resulting in the downward spiral landing him in prison. He probably sees the OP as trying to replace his Dad, and thinks it means that his Mum has forgotten about his Dad. This would no doubt cause a deep resentment to form. Perhaps any time the OP tried to bond with him, it just caused the son to push him further away as a punishment of sorts for not being his Dad.

So if anyone's issues need to be dealt with, it's the son's, not the OP's. Now of course, that's all purely speculation above, but it's a lot less outlandish than your repeated statements that it's the OPs fault. No 12 year old child will have an easy time accepting a new partner of their parent. Some just deal with it better than others. So maybe if the son got some serious counselling and got to the root of his issues, he could start making progress and sorting his life out.

And weird, you keep saying how the son was pushed out of his house - by the sounds of it, he voluntarily decided to go. I see nothing to indicate that he was banished.

15 year old children are not adults faith. They can't just do whatever they want. If he trys to walk out you bring him back. The OP and his mother should have done this, they didn't. You do not allow 15 year old chldren to live out on their own as adults ffs.

The OP's behavior has not improved the situation. The OP is his family and this is a family problem. His "us and him" mentality is the core issue behind this child feeling like he wasn't welcome. Would you want to be someplace you weren't welcome?

paperclip2

weird wrote: »

Sure, those are all feelings caused by dependancy but not he source. The fact is many people who abuse narcotics and alchohal d so because something was wrong at home. In this case no one could leave home at 15 and everything is "okay".
From here
http://www.addictionireland.ie/research_training/publication101.asp

Yes, there are instances where people self-medicate, but there are other reasons for addicitions.

Theories of Adolescent psychosocial development (and I'm principally thinking of the work of Erik Erikson here) state that there are a number of developmental stages that must be negotiated as a child grows from infancy to adolescence, each laying the foundation for the next. If any one of these stages are disrupted or there is a failure to work through the 'task' correctly then the individual may, on an emotional level remain 'stuck' at that stage. At the age that his dad died the developmental stage this boy would have been at is Industry Vs Inferiority, or developing a strong, realistic understanding of the adult world and how it works. His understanding now includes abandonment which if it becomes part of the personality matrix is also a probable contributory factor for addiction. Also addiction is an excellent way of pushing people away. If you push someone away first than there is less likelihood of them abandoning you.

All of this is pure speculation on my part.
The theory stuff I'm taking from Eriksons books "Theories of Adolescence" and "Childhood and Society".

weird wrote: »

These problems start at home, it's been common knowlege for quite some time.

If it was as clear cut as that then the same results would be seen across all family members, in this case its not. There is choice going on here too.

weird wrote: »

No, he was pushed out of his home where his mother lives. Away from his family. Grandparents are not parents.

He chose to not accept the boundaries which are neccessary for stable family life. There are consequnces to decsisions. I imagine it was not a decision made easily by his parents.

seamus

weird wrote: »

15 year old children are not adults faith. They can't just do whatever they want. If he trys to walk out you bring him back. The OP and his mother should have done this, they didn't. You do not allow 15 year old chldren to live out on their own as adults ffs.

"What if"s and "should have"s are irrelevent. This is a man we're talking about. An adult. His actions are his own responsibility and no-one else's. I don't accept the "troubled life" excuse. Everyone has their own little (and big) burdens that life throws on us and somehow 99% of us manage to deal with it and take responsibility for our own actions when we grow up.

If your parents did something wrong, you should be able to say, "They ****ed, they're human, I'll learn from their mistakes and be a better human being for it". You shouldn't be looking for absolution or blaming your anger and misery on actions which took place ten years ago. We make our own paths in this world, nobody forces us to do anything unless we let them. Ultimately where we are in life is the culmination of *our* choices to this point and no-one else's.

You father dying doesn't make a criminal. Being thrown out of the family home doesn't make a criminal. Your choices make you a criminal, and nothing else.

irishgrover

weird wrote: »

That's really not helpful at all IMHO. If you disagree with me then state why... but the OP has asked for this community's opinion and that one is mine. ...

Hi Weird, first off; you're right I didn't really give any opinion other than strongly disagree with yours, sorry about that.

Without going into too much analytical detail, I fundementally disagree with your assessment of the situation. You have absolved the 23 year old, violent, drug addicted armed robber of all his past and present actions, and instead passed all fault to his step father.

I think your assessment of the situation is simplistic and ignorant at best.

CDfm

weird wrote: »

If my son was out in the street I'd be searching day and night until I found him and if I had to I would lock him up I would. I'd watch him 24/7 if I had to and go on the dole if I had to. There is no excuse for that whatsoever. Thing is my son doesn't act like this at all because I have always been there for him and been involved, no matter what.

The difference here is that you have not been in the situation and Paul needs to look after his girlfriend,stepson and two little ones as well.

There are legal restrictions on what you can do with a child or to a child- so its not always feasible to do what you propose without the persons cooperation.

So we are incredibly lucky not to be in Pauls and his girlfriends shoes.I admire them and their efforts.

mairsmi

irishgrover wrote: »

Hi Weird, first off; you're right I didn't really give any opinion other than strongly disagree with yours, sorry about that.

Without going into too much analytical detail, I fundementally disagree with your assessment of the situation. You have absolved the 23 year old, violent, drug addicted armed robber of all his past and present actions, and instead passed all fault to his step father.

I think your assessment of the situation is simplistic and ignorant at best.

I absolutely and wholly agree with Irishgrover. Weird, you appear to be up on a high horse. Hopefully you never need get off...

To the OP. I can only agree with the other responses which say you can't help him unless he wants to help himself. Has your gf discussed with him the possibility on him entering a treatment program? Failing that would you or your GF be able to discuss the situation with his probation worker. Surely they have a duty of care or similar?

I do think it would be absolutely unwise to expose your younger children to his behaviour.

What a horrible situation. I hope you manage to resolve it for the best.

Splendour

seamus wrote: »

If your parents did something wrong, you should be able to say, "They ****ed, they're human, I'll learn from their mistakes and be a better human being for it". You shouldn't be looking for absolution or blaming your anger and misery on actions which took place ten years ago. We make our own paths in this world, nobody forces us to do anything unless we let them. Ultimately where we are in life is the culmination of *our* choices to this point and no-one else's.

My ex husband came from a family were he and his siblings were verbally and emotionally abused by their father. My ex 'learned' from this experience and treated me the same way. However his brother was able to say "They ****ed, they're human, I'll learn from their mistakes and be a better human being for it" -and he was. My point being that people can react differently to the same situations.

Seems to me there's alot of blame going on in this situation and at the end of the day it doesn't matter a damn who's to blame. There's a seriously hurting 22 drug addict who needs alot of help and alot of love. There's a mother who I imagine has all sorts of emotional feelings going on about her drug addicted kid as well as having younger kids to think about. There's a boyfriend who also has his children and girlfriend first and foremost on his mind and is possibly p****d off at this addict at this stage and wants to just get it sorted.

Ask any addict if they want to be an addict or would they rather get clean or keep taking drugs. If they are totally honest, they'll tell you they want to get off drugs and live a normal life.

Paul, can I ask what this guy was like when you first met your girfriend? Were there problems at that stage? Also, (you can tell me to get lost if you want!), have you contacted him recently to meet up?

meathstevie

CDfm wrote: »

You are probably thinking of a Safety Order but these are associated with Domestic Violence and normally are granted for an incident in the home over the preceeding 6 months.

I can't see how it would apply here at the moment unless he had made a specific threat.

If you wanted to check you could contact your local District Court Clerks office.

FYI Domestic abuse/violence doesn't necessary have to be between (ex)partners. It's applicable to family relations in general.


Paul,

first of all : if the addiction related trouble doesn't get sorted nothing is going to get sorted. His life is going to be a succession of a couple of months on the outside followed by a couple of months inside combined with a steady decline of his health ( physical and mental ) as the dope takes over.

Your primary concern should be your kids and partner who live with you in the house. Unfortunatly for you and your partner one of her adult sons has made a mess of his life. I understand - correct me if I'm wrong - you and her are willing to help him to get his life back on track if he reciprocates by sorting himself out but you don't want to jeopardise your safety either which is absolutely right. If your partner wants to do so, with your consent and support, she can try and give him any help she can and wants to give him withouttaking him into the house to ruin all your lives. Also, how does his younger brother feel about it all ?

I think if he had to reside at a certain address while out on probation and has been evicted he's already broken his probation conditions which makes things even more complicated. He even might have told whoever is monitoring his probation that his ma was going to take him in and now needs to get access to the house in order to keep his probation going.

Also, if you let him back in while he's still wheeling and dealing in all sorts remember that when the Gardai kick the door down and find anything other people in the house could find themselves in trouble as well.

Paul, whatever you do : think about the ones around you who can't look after themself before you decide anything. Frustration and anger are strong emotions but don't give in to them and give the guy a hiding. On the other hand if you have to defend yourself or someone else from violence or what you perceive to be imminent violence by all means defend yourself but don't do anything excessive. If one dig is going to do the job than one dig it is, nothing more.

Snowie

Jakkass wrote: »

He's just asking his mother to help him after coming out of jail. I don't hold the same view as you do, which is once a scumbag always a scumbag. That mentality actually causes more problems than it solves, and if that kind of attitude is employed this time, it could make this worse rather than better.

well there is that, but hes already hanging with his "gang". It doesn't sound like he deserves any help when hes already clearly reverted to his old ways

Jakkass wrote: »

We have absolutely no evidence that this guy would kill anyone in that family. I don't see why if his mother would reach out to him and actually show him some compassion instead of shunning him.

Oh kicking the front door down is just a lovely jeasture to do for your mother isn't it !

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes, but it is clear that this guy needs help in order to straighten himself out. I think it's ridiculous to say that "the safety of the family" is top priority when he is a part of the family, or at least he should be regarded as such. It seems in this situation this son is the thrash of the family and I think this mindset could contribute to some of the problems he currently has.

yeah but you help your self buy not going back and hanging with your mates who are a bunch of drug dealers as the Op has mentioned! Its not, the 22 year old seems to have the mental age of a 14 year old I mean i have bills to pay I pay them if i have an important document i put it some where safe.
If you had a 2 year old and 6 year old would you like them being around some one who stole car's and delt drugs and committed armed robbery ? at that age there pretty impresionable.

Jakkass wrote: »

He needs help to comply, or else he'll just be back in the slammer. The OP and his girlfriend have to decide, do they really care about this guy?

I would agree but clearly prison system has failed. They have not helped the person, too see what they have done is wrong, they just look them up and leave them there.

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd like to think I would. It's hard to say not being in this situation though, however it seems like there is more to this than meets the eye.

thats so compassionate of you i mean wow, you want to be in the presence of people who commit crimes in order to get a head the fast way...

If it was me id hold a baring order against him hopefully he'd break it, so he could go back to jail. He doesn't deserve any help what so ever.

Unless of course bye some sort of magic he see's the wrong in his ways and fix's them but doubt that would happen.

CDfm

What it really comes down to is getting the right advice on how to deal with the here and now and a contingency plan for if he does want to get help with his addiction.

I do know a bit about Domestic Violence in that the Court Orders are Civil Orders but with criminal penalties i.e. prison. I do not know how they would interact with probation and that is why I would say be cautious until you recieve proper advice. If you were to act rashly and the consequence was to reactivate his prison sentence I imagine that would add another set of complications.

If it was me - I would be looking for agencies/support for you as a family now and to put in a plan for the future.

Because you are so close to the detail its difficult so you need advice/support from an agency that will be familiar with the probation issue as well.So IMO you need to locate a counsellor to guide you through this.

I have looked and the only type of groups are those like CARP (Community Addiction Response Program) which also gives support to families thats probably why you need support as a family unit first etc.

Here is a link to Coolmines links page giving details of family support groups etc in the Dublin Area.

http://www.coolmine.ie/links/index/id/Family%20Support%20Services

I imagine the best support will come from those who have experienced the problem.

There is also a Fathers Support Group as part of the Family Support Network the meets in Clondalkin and the details are in this link here

http://www.fsn.ie/whatis/father_page.html

There are also other local groups with local contacts for Dublin and outside Dublin listed here

http://www.fsn.ie/directory_groups/index.html

I hope these are of some use.

philologos

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

well there is that, but hes already hanging with his "gang". It doesn't sound like he deserves any help when hes already clearly reverted to his old ways

Why do you think that he is hanging with this gang? Isn't it rather probable that this is the case because his mother has effectively rejected him?

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

Oh kicking the front door down is just a lovely jeasture to do for your mother isn't it !

Possibly a last resort. You have to ask yourself why was he shut out in the first place.

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

yeah but you help your self buy not going back and hanging with your mates who are a bunch of drug dealers as the Op has mentioned! Its not, the 22 year old seems to have the mental age of a 14 year old I mean i have bills to pay I pay them if i have an important document i put it some where safe.
If you had a 2 year old and 6 year old would you like them being around some one who stole car's and delt drugs and committed armed robbery ? at that age there pretty impresionable.

If someone has been emotionally damaged by events from the age of 13 onwards this issue has roots in childhood. It didn't start when he was 18. This is why I suggest that there is more than what meets the eye, and it is the reason why I think that there is a lack of compassion on this thread. It could even be a psychological issue at this stage. If it is the result of psychological or emotional difficulties is it really fair to say that the guy should just "deal with it himself"?

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

I would agree but clearly prison system has failed. They have not helped the person, too see what they have done is wrong, they just look them up and leave them there.

The guy has just got out to be rejected by his own family. There is still hope, but the family have to ensure that he will not be involved with this other group.

As for the prison system failing, if that is the case while he is out his parents need to help him, and get him the assistance that he needs before he is locked up again and is locked into this vicious cycle.

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

thats so compassionate of you i mean wow, you want to be in the presence of people who commit crimes in order to get a head the fast way...

I feel that as a blood relative to this guy, his mother should be willing to reach out to him. That is what I feel is compassionate and correct for a situation like this.

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

If it was me id hold a baring order against him hopefully he'd break it, so he could go back to jail. He doesn't deserve any help what so ever.

Whether or not he deserves it is irrelevant he needs it.

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

Unless of course bye some sort of magic he see's the wrong in his ways and fix's them but doubt that would happen.

Again, if we had evidence that this wasn't motivated by underlying emotional and psychological problems I'd be with you, however I think there is far far more to this than anyone is giving credit for. Child is led into a world of crime at the age of 13?

CDfm

Jakkass wrote: »

If someone has been emotionally damaged by events from the age of 13 onwards this issue has roots in childhood. It didn't start when he was 18. This is why I suggest that there is more than what meets the eye, and it is the reason why I think that there is a lack of compassion on this thread. It could even be a psychological issue at this stage. If it is the result of psychological or emotional difficulties is it really ..

Again, if we had evidence that this wasn't motivated by underlying emotional and psychological problems I'd be with you, however I think there is far far more to this than anyone is giving credit for. Child is led into a world of crime at the age of 13?

Its not just psychological/environmental factors there are genetic hereditary factors. Biological children of addicts are 3 to 5 times as likely to be addicts than those who are not -even when adopted. Sometimes its no ones fault its just genetic and hereditary traits.

LegacyUser

I have a relation like this.
Roughly the same age.

He was brought up exactly like his sisters and brothers, I know personally because I stayed with them every summer, and every other holiday. From an early age I was slightly afraid of him even though I was four years his elder.
There were younger kids in the house too.

When he was two years old I knew he was "different".

His mother did her very best and treated him exactly the same as the other kids.

He has robbed every employer, family member and anyone else he has ever got to know.

He's broken into various establishments family houses, and been violent against his parents.

He's done everything, and feels like he has a sense of entitlement to whatever he takes.

Turns out he has a personality disorder, diagnosed.

After many many years, he is back in his parents house, although we all know it's temporary.

They still haven't given up on him.

The choice is yours completely, but I would say that the best thing to say to him is that when he decides to get help you will be there, and check in on him every so often, making sure that you tell him each time - this isnt for money, we are not a stop over, its just so know we are here.

I would also make sure that he gets properly assessed. If you know what your dealing with, it gives a clearly view of what needs to be done.