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Stepson out of jail, what to do?

2

Comments

  • #32
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This is rather deceptive. This 22 year old is his girlfriends son, a part of his family. I feel that they are obligated to help him out and quick before he gets in more trouble.

    He should have never been allowed to leave and move out at the age of 15. That's the root of these issues in my interpretation.

    And how do you stop him? They went to Court with him and if he wouldnt obey the Courts and police what were they to do. Chain him up
    Most people wouldn't take in a 22 year old on drugs that they have no connection with, but as for taking in your son after being in jail. That's a different matter altogether.

    Its not that different really. The son is an adult.
    I'm aware, but when this is a relative of yours, I believe you are obligated to help in any way possible.

    The OP wants to help him but stops at taking him in because of previous behaviour and 2 young children.

    He has an overiding duty of care there that trumps the 22 vyear olds needs.


  • #33
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    CDfm wrote: »
    And how do you stop him? They went to Court with him and if he wouldnt obey the Courts and police what were they to do. Chain him up

    The OP doesn't give any credence to these problems starting before he was 15. Perhaps some clarification is warranted.

    However, I don't know any reasonable person who would let their 15 year old leave home. The Gardaí should have been sent out to look for him if he didn't come home.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Its not that different really. The son is an adult.
    He wasn't when the problems began, and I suspect that there are other family problems behind this.
    CDfm wrote: »
    The OP wants to help him but stops at taking him in because of previous behaviour and 2 young children.

    Sometimes in life, one has to reach out to people in order to promote lasting change. From politics to family disputes this is how the world works.
    CDfm wrote: »
    He has an overiding duty of care there that trumps the 22 vyear olds needs.

    I disagree with you here. The 22 year old is more in need than he ever was. He needs to be helped effectively to get out of this situation, and to get himself straight. This is his girlfriends son, not some random stranger.


  • #34
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The OP doesn't give any credence to these problems starting before he was 15. Perhaps some clarification is warranted.

    However, I don't know any reasonable person who would let their 15 year old leave home. The Gardaí should have been sent out to look for him if he didn't come home.

    There really is very little you can do- once a child is 16 they can pretty much live where they want and there is very little you can legally do. Parents have duties and obligations but limited rights of enforcement.

    We should agree to disagree on taking him in as its not helping the OP -the 22 year old is a man and you cannot force him to do anything.

    Now at 22 if he still doesnt want to live a normal life there is even less they can do to help if he doesnt want it.


  • #35
    mirwillbeback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭mirwillbeback


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The OP doesn't give any credence to these problems starting before he was 15. Perhaps some clarification is warranted.

    Clarification -

    problems started when he was about 13, he was mitching school, getting suspended etc. Started taking hash ( as far as we know ) when about 14. We went to social worker as we knew where it was leading to. Social worker at one stage said " just give him a hug " and " if i got involved with every troubled teenager i'd have no time to do anything ". Still have her name actually, would love to see if she is still performing to such a high standard.

    He left our house at 15 to live with his grandparents ( on fathers side ). 1st night he stayed there he robbed the wallet belonging to their spanish student.
    Stayed a while there, then his uncles where drugs were found. Given last chance and both robbed money and took drugs there and left.

    We went to court to take him back under a curfew, whereby he had to be in by 11pm. Never adhered to it, and we'd ring the gardai who would bring him back, ring the doorbell. When we would tell them he wouldn't stay in, they would tell us that once the porch door was closed, they had done their job and when he went out again to ring them again.

    He took to sneaking out in the middle of the night, and robbing cars. As I said earlier, we went to the courts after these curfew breaches and were told just to continue to call the police every night. We got to know the gardai quite well, and they sympathised fully with us, they knew we were trying our best, and that the law was not sufficient for childrens crimes. Additionally, when we contacted politicians to see what could be done, one of eight, Eamonn Gilmore contacted us back, though admitted there just were no facilities available. Funnily enough, the then Minister for Children Mary Hanafin never even had the dignity to reply to our calls or letters.
    Trust me, no one wants to know when you have hassle.


  • #36
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    mirwillbeback wrote: »
    Clarification -

    problems started when he was about 13, he was mitching school, getting suspended etc. Started taking hash ( as far as we know ) when about 14. We went to social worker as we knew where it was leading to. Social worker at one stage said " just give him a hug " and " if i got involved with every troubled teenager i'd have no time to do anything ". Still have her name actually, would love to see if she is still performing to such a high standard.

    He left our house at 15 to live with his grandparents ( on fathers side ). 1st night he stayed there he robbed the wallet belonging to their spanish student.
    Stayed a while there, then his uncles where drugs were found. Given last chance and both robbed money and took drugs there and left.

    We went to court to take him back under a curfew, whereby he had to be in by 11pm. Never adhered to it, and we'd ring the gardai who would bring him back, ring the doorbell. When we would tell them he wouldn't stay in, they would tell us that once the porch door was closed, they had done their job and when he went out again to ring them again.

    He took to sneaking out in the middle of the night, and robbing cars. As I said earlier, we went to the courts after these curfew breaches and were told just to continue to call the police every night. We got to know the gardai quite well, and they sympathised fully with us, they knew we were trying our best, and that the law was not sufficient for childrens crimes. Additionally, when we contacted politicians to see what could be done, one of eight, Eamonn Gilmore contacted us back, though admitted there just were no facilities available. Funnily enough, the then Minister for Children Mary Hanafin never even had the dignity to reply to our calls or letters.
    Trust me, no one wants to know when you have hassle.

    What part have you or his mother played in this? It seems to me you're quite content to absolve yourself from any responsibility for how he's turned out... even thought you're his parents! You should have looked inward at your family dynamic and resolved this many years ago...

    It is so sad how you found the suggestion on giving him love abhorrent... no wonder her turned out like this!

    Here's what I think happened and I base this from personal experience having seen it replicated time and time again.

    You started a new family with his mother and in the process basically shunned him. You admited to sending him off to live with the grandparents so you could have your own little family without him. No wonder he acted out!

    You looked at him and his behavior as "the problem"... "the hassle". You contacted agencies and politicians looking for help with your "problem". He was a child, not a "hassle" ffs! When what you should have done was look inward and thought "what can I change about myself to accommodate him better? What can I do that help him?" "what have I done to make him react like this?". After all, the onus was on you to do this as you joined his family... not the other way around.

    Children aren't born bad, he's not a "scumbag" as other people have said. He is self medicating. This is a person in pain. He's not in a rational emotional state. He's been on his own since 15 and now he's just gotten out of jail after a 3 year stint. He doen't have the life skills needed to live on his own! He doesn't know how to get a job, or take care of himself properly! he needs to be taught how to get a job. Be taught how to pay rent and blance a current acocunt. he also needs years of therapy so he can learn how to interact with other people in a positive manner. He's 22 years old, with no job, just got out of jail and I bet is unemployable and uneducated. This is you and his mother's fault. Harsh words I know... but this is your fault as you are his parents.

    I feel so sorry for this poor kid. He been though all of this and now, he's getting crap off you when he wants help fom his mother! he has no life skills ffs of course he needs help!

    You tried to treat the symptoms and not the cause of the illness and did so in manner that fit your best interests and not his.

    You and his mother need to admit to yourselves and to him that you failed him as parents. That he's paid for his crime, that your actions directly or indirectly forced him to do. You're going to say that you love him and you're going to do everything in your power to see that he becomes a happy, stable adult. That he's just as much a member of your family as all your other children.

    He also needs to admit that his life is in bad place and he has to want it to get better.

    He needs an activity that will make him feel better about himself and not leave his hands idle. A job would be ideal but I don't think it's going to be easy for him to get one right off... also if he got one he'd loose it as he's not used to being responsible.

    He's needs something with minimal responsibility that increases over time. Manual labor would be ideal. Some place far away from his current surroundings and connections. Working on a farm would be great.

    You didn't "raise" this child. You fobbed him off on his grandparents. When that didn't work he went out on his own at 15 and did his best to survive. No wonder he was a delinquent!

    In short, you caused this mess and it is your responsibility to do whatever it takes to get him out of it.

    The problem isn't him, it's the man in the mirror. Unless you fix this he's gonna be in and out of jail the rest of his life and causing all sorts of misery. His life will be horrible.


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  • #37
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The 22 year old is an adult and has to learn to look after himself and take responsiblity for his actions, no one can fix him other then himself.


  • #38
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Thaedydal: You've repeated that again and again on this thread, but it is clear that these issues stem from far earlier and that there is parental responsibility for what has happened to this guy throughout his life. The attitude of let him sort it out himself, means that he'll probably be right back in the slammer, knowing pretty much that his mother doesn't even care about him. Tell me would you like to be in that position?


  • #39
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Jakkass having seen first what drugged addicated and criminal cousins have done in terms of tearing thier famlies apart and ruining the lives of thier younger siblings there are times when you have to cut off a finger to save the hand and there are plenty of ways of being suportive of a person who is willing to work at sorting themselves out with out having them in the family home and causing suffering on innocent children.

    There are many types of love and tough love is one of them and I have never suggest that his mother didn't love him and doens't not still love him but she has two children under the age of 10 in that house hold and the 22 clearly has no respect for her or for the family and to say they would be a 'disruptive influence' in the family home is a huge understatement.


  • #40
    irishgrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭irishgrover


    weird wrote: »
    What part have you or his mother played in this. it seems to me you're quite content to absolve yourself from any responsibility for how he's turned out... even thought you're his parents! You should have looked inward at your family dynamic and resolved this many years ago...

    It is so sad how you found the suggestion on giving him love abhorrent... no wonder her turned out like this!

    Here's what I think happened and I base this from personal experience having seen it replicated time and time again.

    You started a new family with his mother and in the process basically shunned him. You admited to sending him off to live with the grandparents so you could have your own little family without him. No wonder he acted out!

    You looked at him and his behavior as "the problem"... "the hassle". You contacted agencies and politicians looking for help with your "problem". He was a child, not a "hassle" ffs! When what you should have done was look inward and thought "what can I change about myself to accommodate him better? What can I do that help him?" "what have I done to make him react like this?". After all, the onus was on you to do this as you joined his family... not the other way around.

    Children aren't born bad, he's not a "scumbag" as other people have said. He is self medicating. This is a person in pain. He's not in a rational emotional state. He's been on his own since 15 and now he's just gotten out of jail after a 3 year stint. He doen't have the life skills needed to live on his own! He doesn't know how to get a job, or take care of himself properly! he needs to be taught how to get a job. Be taught how to pay rent and blance a current acocunt. he also needs years of therapy so he can learn how to interact with other people in a positive manner. He's 22 years old, with no job, just got out of jail and I bet is unemployable and uneducated. This is you and his mother's fault. Harsh words I know... but this is your fault as you are his parents.

    I feel so sorry for this poor kid. He been though all of this and now, he's getting crap off you when he wants help fom his mother! he has no life skills ffs of course he needs help!

    You tried to treat the symptoms and not the cause of the illness and did so in manner that fit your best interests and not his.

    You and his mother need to admit to yourselves and to him that you failed him as parents. That he's paid for his crime, that your actions directly or indirectly forced him to do. You're going to say that you love him and you're going to do everything in your power to see that he becomes a happy, stable adult. That he's just as much a member of your family as all your other children.

    He also needs to admit that his life is in bad place and he has to want it to get better.

    He needs an activity that will make him feel better about himself and not leave his hands idle. A job would be ideal but I don't think it's going to be easy for him to get one right off... also if he got one he'd loose it as he's not used to being responsible.

    He's needs something with minimal responsibility that increases over time. Manual labor would be ideal. Some place far away from his current surroundings and connections. Working on a farm would be great.

    You didn't "raise" this child. You fobbed him off on his grandparents. When that didn't work he went out on his own at 15 and did his best to survive. No wonder he was a delinquent!

    In short, you caused this mess and it is your responsibility to do whatever it takes to get him out of it.

    The problem isn't him, it's the man in the mirror. Unless you fix this he's gonna be in and out of jail the rest of his life and causing all sorts of misery. His life will be horrible.

    I honestly think that this is the most disagreeable post I've ever read on boards....:(


  • #41
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    irishgrover wrote: »
    I honestly think that this is the most disagreeable post I've ever read on boards....:(

    That's really not helpful at all IMHO. If you disagree with me then state why... but the OP has asked for this community's opinion and that one is mine.

    Further to the point I believe the reason we have people like this in our society is because the parents have not done their jobs. We are all too quick to blame the child when they are just another victim.

    I see these kids every day, delinquents... in shops and on the Luas. Sure, we want to give 'em a slap but then I think "where are their parents?" These kids probably have so much worse than you can even contemplate.

    As far as the OP goes, and I'm sorry if this inflamitory, but there is no excuse for a child being on the streets and on his own at 15. None whatsoever. I think it is criminal but yet he speaks about it as it's par for the course.

    It seems to me like the OP signed up for the mom and not her son. Her son didn't fit easily into his plan and pushed him out. When he starts to act out he gets labled a "bad seed". Maybe I'm wrong... Maybe we are dealing with Damien from the Omen. Maybe he's the antichrist... but I somehow doubt it.

    Sounds to me he's another lost child in a man's body.


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  • #42
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    weird wrote: »
    That's really not helpful at all IMHO. If you disagree with me then state why... but the OP has asked for this community's opinion and that one is mine.

    Further to the point I believe the reason we have people like this in our society is because the parents have not done their jobs. We are all too quick to blame the child when they are just another victim.

    I see these kids every day, delinquents... in shops and on the Luas. Sure, we want to give 'em a slap but then I think "where are their parents?" These kids probably have so much worse than you can even contemplate.

    As far as the OP goes, and I'm sorry if this inflamitory, but there is no excuse for a child being on the streets and on his own at 15. None whatsoever. I think it is criminal but yet he speaks about it as it's par for the course.

    It seems to me like the OP signed up for the mom and not her son. Her son didn't fit easily into his plan and pushed him out. When he starts to act out he gets labled a "bad seed". Maybe I'm wrong... Maybe we are dealing with Damien from the Omen. Maybe he's the antichrist... but I somehow doubt it.

    Sounds to me he's another lost child in a man's body.

    The OP stated that his gf has two sons. He gets on fantastically with the second. If your assessment was correct, then the second son of the gf would also have been pushed out and started to act out criminally. He didn't though, so I think you are completely off the mark. Furthermore, you comments are nothing but hurtful to the OP, and provide no constructive advice at all.


  • #43
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Jakkass having seen first what drugged addicated and criminal cousins have done in terms of tearing thier famlies apart and ruining the lives of thier younger siblings there are times when you have to cut off a finger to save the hand and there are plenty of ways of being suportive of a person who is willing to work at sorting themselves out with out having them in the family home and causing suffering on innocent children.

    There are many types of love and tough love is one of them and I have never suggest that his mother didn't love him and doens't not still love him but she has two children under the age of 10 in that house hold and the 22 clearly has no respect for her or for the family and to say they would be a 'disruptive influence' in the family home is a huge understatement.

    This kid's mother and step father have allot they owe to him in my opinion. No wonder he is angry and disapointed.

    It's all well and good to say "sort yourself out" but if you don't have the skills to do so that's another thing. This kid at 15 was put out of his home and did what he had to survive.

    I suspect you were lucky enough to have a home and family who looked after you. I bet you never had to wonder how you clothes would get paid for.

    Seems to me like you need to realise not everyone has had it as well as you have.


  • #44
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    Faith wrote: »
    The OP stated that his gf has two sons. He gets on fantastically with the second. If your assessment was correct, then the second son of the gf would also have been pushed out and started to act out criminally. He didn't though, so I think you are completely off the mark. Furthermore, you comments are nothing but hurtful to the OP, and provide no constructive advice at all.

    Wrong. This other son may have delt with this in another way. Maybe this gent was the daddy he always wanted while the other son felt dejected and when he didn't play allong was shunned. We do not all react the same way to these sorts of situations and further more it was the OPs responsibility to make sure both boys had a home... not just one.

    The advice I gave is very helpful. He needs to sort this out because wether he likes it or not it's his responsibility. Fact is unless he does this poor kid is gonna be right back in jail.


  • #45
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Thaedydal: You've repeated that again and again on this thread, but it is clear that these issues stem from far earlier and that there is parental responsibility for what has happened to this guy throughout his life. The attitude of let him sort it out himself, means that he'll probably be right back in the slammer, knowing pretty much that his mother doesn't even care about him. Tell me would you like to be in that position?

    Jackass - as a parent it isnt that clear.I am so lucky I havent been in that situation but I know people who have been.

    The guy just thinks the life he lives is more attractive and doesn't want to leave it behind. He is an adult and if he does end up back in jail its his responsibility and not his mothers or Paul's or his Uncles. They would visit him again.

    From what Paul has posted they have not abandoned him at all. They have been innovative and pro-active from the getgo.

    What Paul has posted is proactive and rather than giving up -which many people would he is getting ready to have another go.

    For the guy to overcome his problems would take commitment which he may not feel ready to give. Thats not to say his family will write him off and they havent this past 10 years.

    I think what Paul is asking is twofold -can anyone see a spark of hope or are is there anything that is worth exploring or agencies worth talking too. I can't see how over analysing it can help as they probably have already done that themselves.

    They are looking at ways to approach it for a positive outcome but which keeps their family safe too.

    You can lead a horse to water etc .........


  • #46
    mirwillbeback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭mirwillbeback


    weird wrote: »
    This kid's mother and step father have allot they owe to him in my opinion. No wonder he is angry and disapointed.

    It's all well and good to say "sort yourself out" but if you don't have the skills to do so that's another thing. This kid at 15 was put out of his home and did what he had to survive.

    I suspect you were lucky enough to have a home and family who looked after you. I bet you never had to wonder how you clothes would get paid for.

    Seems to me like you need to realise not everyone has had it as well as you have.

    Honest to God I hope this is trolling and it's sad if it isn't.

    - i absolved myself of any responsibility

    we spent years trying to help him

    - we found the idea of giving love abhorrent

    what we found abhorrent was that a troubled child was dismissed as " just needing a hug " to stop him robbing cars and taking drugs

    - that i basically shunned him

    despite giving him 3 years of attention, bringing him to footie, bringing him to my footie, trying everything to get a connection

    - i didn't look inside and ask myself to change

    yeah, i should have wondered was I too strict insisting he wouldn't rob cars and do drugs in our house with other children around

    - he's getting crap off me when all he wants is his mother

    i havent seen him or talked to him, and if all he wants is his mother, why is he going back to his drug gang when she has told him if he does she can't support his choices and needs to help himself

    - we failed him as parents

    great, if you can offer us some counselling we'd appreciate it, particularly as you can judge us from a internet forum. luckily with the other 3 children we seems to have fluked the test

    - we caused this mess

    how dare you be so judgemental

    - the problem is the man in the mirror

    cheers for that, maybe you could tell me how i can change my flaws. and there was me thinking I was perfect.

    Thanks so much for sorting all this out for me, I'll bring him back with his drugs tonight, sure we can do the family thing around a bag of heroin and chat about where I have made the mistake, and perhaps tomorrow we can go and look for job openings counting hen's eggs.

    I think your post was one of the most, ignorant and unhelpful replies I've ever seen on Boards.


  • #47
    paperclip2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭paperclip2


    Jeez Weird, tell us how you really feel.

    If all responsibility was being absolved I dont think Mirwillbeback would be posting on Boards looking for help.

    Hope is a finite resource. Especially the hope we have when we see someone we love hurting themselves. We keep hoping they'll change and that hope fuels our desire to help but with every failure we have less hope in the face of the reality. Its up to this guy to do something to give his parents a chance to be hopeful for him again.

    At some point he needs to take responsibility for his life. Maybe this kids parents failed him but if they did I dont think it was through lack of love.

    If we're speculating on how this family operated than I'll say his history, to me, looks like a kid who got the message that he was the most important thing in the universe, and then one day real life kicked in and he had to share his toys, and his mother. He looks like a chap who has no idea how to tolerate frustration which is something that we generally learn through being disciplined as kids. Sometimes seperated parents overindulge their kids and let them away with things. Thats something I've seen replicated time and time again, and God knows I've been guilty of it too.

    The reality is that he is now 22, his family are willing to help him but having been down that road with him already they are justified, I think, in waiting for this guy to come some way towards them and show that he is sincere in his wish to change.
    I've worked in prisons and there is a certain element of 'poor me' from some of the guys. The ones who make valid changes are the ones who are honest with themselves and start the process of change there. There are support services in prison, limited and insufficient in many cases but one which does work fairly well is the education service. Engaging with that would have helped him towards gaining the kinds of skills needed to make real changes on the outside. Theres no indication he did anything with his time inside except sat it out.
    Words are easy to say but its actions that tell the real story. Also there is a chance that the family dynamic is such at this moment, that his family aren't really the right ones to help him, that there's too much history that could get in the way of real help on both sides.

    I've waffled enough.


  • #48
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    CDfm wrote: »
    Jackass - as a parent it isnt that clear.I am so lucky I havent been in that situation but I know people who have been.

    The guy just thinks the life he lives is more attractive and doesn't want to leave it behind. He is an adult and if he does end up back in jail its his responsibility and not his mothers or Paul's or his Uncles. They would visit him again.

    From what Paul has posted they have not abandoned him at all. They have been innovative and pro-active from the getgo.

    What Paul has posted is proactive and rather than giving up -which many people would he is getting ready to have another go.

    For the guy to overcome his problems would take commitment which he may not feel ready to give. Thats not to say his family will write him off and they havent this past 10 years.

    I think what Paul is asking is twofold -can anyone see a spark of hope or are is there anything that is worth exploring or agencies worth talking too. I can't see how over analysing it can help as they probably have already done that themselves.

    They are looking at ways to approach it for a positive outcome but which keeps their family safe too.

    You can lead a horse to water etc .........

    disagree completely. I have a son and there is no way I would ever allow him to be on his own from the age of 15. That's unacceptable. I would do anything to make sure they he was happy.

    I don't think anyone would find prision "attractive" I doubt he likes living like this at all. No one likes living in misery.


  • #49
    paperclip2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭paperclip2


    weird wrote: »
    disagree completely. I have a son and there is no way I would ever allow him to be on his own from the age of 15. That's unacceptable. I would do anything to make sure they he was happy.

    I don't think anyone would find prision "attractive" I doubt he likes living like this at all. No one likes living in misery.


    My brother was an alcoholic at 15, what would have made him happy then would have been an unending supply of drink and no-one nagging him to please stop drinking. What do you think my parents did?

    As for living in misery you would be so surprised at how many people chose to live there because its safer than changing and making the effort to do those things that would make them truly happy. In my work I see it every day. Literally every day and it is so sad.


  • #50
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    weird wrote: »
    disagree completely. I have a son and there is no way I would ever allow him to be on his own from the age of 15. That's unacceptable. I would do anything to make sure they he was happy.

    I don't think anyone would find prision "attractive" I doubt he likes living like this at all. No one likes living in misery.

    Well how could you stop all these things happening - you can't.He may not like prison but is willing to take the risk of it.

    I was in a bar in Dorset St years back and the barman put on the DVD Scarface with Al Pacino and well you had to be there.

    Paul and the boys mother didn't plan for this and while a retrospective is fine where can they go for help in the now. What do you suggest?


  • #51
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    mirwillbeback wrote: »
    Honest to God I hope this is trolling and it's sad if it isn't.

    - i absolved myself of any responsibility

    we spent years trying to help him

    - we found the idea of giving love abhorrent

    what we found abhorrent was that a troubled child was dismissed as " just needing a hug " to stop him robbing cars and taking drugs

    - that i basically shunned him

    despite giving him 3 years of attention, bringing him to footie, bringing him to my footie, trying everything to get a connection

    - i didn't look inside and ask myself to change

    yeah, i should have wondered was I too strict insisting he wouldn't rob cars and do drugs in our house with other children around

    - he's getting crap off me when all he wants is his mother

    i havent seen him or talked to him, and if all he wants is his mother, why is he going back to his drug gang when she has told him if he does she can't support his choices and needs to help himself

    - we failed him as parents

    great, if you can offer us some counselling we'd appreciate it, particularly as you can judge us from a internet forum. luckily with the other 3 children we seems to have fluked the test

    - we caused this mess

    how dare you be so judgemental

    - the problem is the man in the mirror

    cheers for that, maybe you could tell me how i can change my flaws. and there was me thinking I was perfect.

    Thanks so much for sorting all this out for me, I'll bring him back with his drugs tonight, sure we can do the family thing around a bag of heroin and chat about where I have made the mistake, and perhaps tomorrow we can go and look for job openings counting hen's eggs.

    I think your post was one of the most, ignorant and unhelpful replies I've ever seen on Boards.

    Why was this kid on his own at age 15? Why did you allow that to happen?

    Anyone one can bring a kid to fottie, it doesn't mean you are emotionally available!

    No, I am completely wrong here.. you're his parents and everything is fine and dandy with him... oh wait it isn't.

    No child can put themselves out of the house at 15.

    Do you know why people do herion? When you do heroin you nod out, and enter a world void of emotional and physical pain... at least until you come to. He's self medicating and trying to escape the pain.

    The reality of this situation is harsh and yeah it is hard to look at yourself and say "I really let him down" but that's what it's going to take.

    Anything that he is is a direct result of his up bringing.

    You rather deal with this by being sarcastic. Yeah a bit of soul searching would do you no harm.

    This kid, and he is a kid... a 22 year old child... needs help.

    Once he gets that help, the first thing they are going to try to figure out is why he is self medicating and I bet my monthly salary that being 15 and on his own had allot to do with it.

    You need to get this kid help. get him in a program because he is in pain, out of control, and lacks any skills to properly care for himself.

    As far as your saracstic invitation goes to meet up with you, I'd be happy to do so. I'd be happy to meet with the both of you if it would mean this kid gets some help. I'd be happy to find out why he's doing this to himself. I'd like to see him get better so he doesn't end up robbing me some day to buy heroin... and I am not being sarcastic.

    I have seen this so many times before. The parents say "we did all we could do" and next thing we have streets full of heroin users. He's your family ffs you can't be happy seeing him like this.


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  • #52
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    paperclip2 wrote: »
    My brother was an alcoholic at 15, what would have made him happy then would have been an unending supply of drink and no-one nagging him to please stop drinking. What do you think my parents did?

    As for living in misery you would be so surprised at how many people chose to live there because its safer than changing and making the effort to do those things that would make them truly happy. In my work I see it every day. Literally every day and it is so sad.

    I agree completely but why do you think they are like that?


  • #53
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    weird wrote: »

    You need to get this kid help. get him in a program because he is in pain, out of control, and lacks any skills to properly care for himself.

    So suggest a program and suggest how to get him into it.


  • #54
    paperclip2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭paperclip2


    weird wrote: »
    I agree completely but why do you think they are like that?

    Why do peope live in misery? Some reasons are fear, anger, a sense of entitlement and frustration, lack of patience, lack of self-awareness and a feeling of helplessness.
    People can think themselves into powerlessness and then expect the outside world to 'fix' it all for them. Its a bit like being locked in a room, the lighbulb goes and then expecting someone in the house next door to fix the light for you. Sometimes you just have to do it for yourself, and if you need a hand, ask for it honestly and accept the help given with gratitude, not a sense of entitlement.

    EDIT
    Weird you keep saying he was out of the house at 15, from reading Mirwillbeback's posts it seems like he was provided with alternative accomodation and extra loving support, i.e. his grandparents and that he was happy to be there. This is common strategy in cases like this. Its a way where everyone can get some distance and reflective space without being in one anothers face. The idea being that family relationships can then be worked on out of the pressure cooker. But again it depends on the young lad engaging. He didnt. Also try keeping anyone, especially a 15 year old boy in a place they dont want to be. Short of barred windows and locked doors you're at nothing.


  • #55
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    CDfm wrote: »
    So suggest a program and suggest how to get him into it.

    http://www.na-ireland.org/

    I'd start here:

    http://www.na-ireland.org/nameetings/east/dublin/

    here are some meetings. This would be the place to start out and find some resources for treatment.

    http://www.addictionireland.ie

    There are also support services out there for family members of addicted people.

    I'd also speak to your GP about treatment programs.

    ...but first the OP has to want to help and right now he does not want to. He just want to wash his hands of him... just like he did when he was 15 and is looking for our advice on how to do it.


  • #56
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    paperclip2 wrote: »
    Why do peope live in misery? Some reasons are fear, anger, a sense of entitlement and frustration, lack of patience, lack of self-awareness and a feeling of helplessness.
    People can think themselves into powerlessness and then expect the outside world to 'fix' it all for them. Its a bit like being locked in a room, the lighbulb goes and then expecting someone in the house next door to fix the light for you. Sometimes you just have to do it for yourself, and if you need a hand, ask for it honestly and accept the help given with gratitude, not a sense of entitlement.

    Sure, those are all feelings caused by dependancy but not he source. The fact is many people who abuse narcotics and alchohal d so because something was wrong at home. In this case no one could leave home at 15 and everything is "okay".

    From here:
    The cohort was also characterised by a high level of familial problems. In all, 78% of subjects reported some form of familial inadequacy

    http://www.addictionireland.ie/research_training/publication101.asp

    These problems start at home, it's been common knowlege for quite some time.


  • #57
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    paperclip2 wrote: »
    Why do peope live in misery? Some reasons are fear, anger, a sense of entitlement and frustration, lack of patience, lack of self-awareness and a feeling of helplessness.
    People can think themselves into powerlessness and then expect the outside world to 'fix' it all for them. Its a bit like being locked in a room, the lighbulb goes and then expecting someone in the house next door to fix the light for you. Sometimes you just have to do it for yourself, and if you need a hand, ask for it honestly and accept the help given with gratitude, not a sense of entitlement.

    EDIT
    Weird you keep saying he was out of the house at 15, from reading Mirwillbeback's posts it seems like he was provided with alternative accomodation and extra loving support, i.e. his grandparents and that he was happy to be there. This is common strategy in cases like this. Its a way where everyone can get some distance and reflective space without being in one anothers face. The idea being that family relationships can then be worked on out of the pressure cooker. But again it depends on the young lad engaging. He didnt. Also try keeping anyone, especially a 15 year old boy in a place they dont want to be. Short of barred windows and locked doors you're at nothing.

    No, he was pushed out of his home where his mother lives. Away from his family. Grandparents are not parents.

    If my son was out in the street I'd be searching day and night until I found him and if I had to I would lock him up I would. I'd watch him 24/7 if I had to and go on the dole if I had to. There is no excuse for that whatsoever. Thing is my son doesn't act like this at all because I have always been there for him and been involved, no matter what.

    At a young age, this kid's father dies. He was traumitized, but bounced back a little. Maybe the other brother was too young at the time? Maybe he became the little man of the house... then the OP steps in and starts running things and he gets pushed to one side. Now he's abandoned twice. First by his father's death and then by his mother when she takes up with the op. He acts out, and they just keep pushing him further and further away. He then takes up using heroin to deal with the emotional pain. Things get more out of control... and here we are. OP, tough love hasn't worked so far... maybe it's time to change strategy?

    OP, maybe this "drug gang" is his family because he doesn't have another one?

    So when I ask the OP what he could have done differently I mean it.


  • #58
    mirwillbeback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭mirwillbeback


    weird wrote: »
    If my son was out in the street I'd be searching day and night until I found him and if i had to I would lock him up. I'd watch him 24/7 if I had to and go on the dole. there is no excuse for that whatsoever.

    hope you never have to


  • #59
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    weird wrote: »
    These problems start at home, it's been common knowlege for quite some time.

    I think the reality is that its the addicts perception that this is the case-nobody really knows.


  • #60
    weird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭weird


    mirwillbeback wrote: »
    hope you never have to

    Me too. There's nothing I wouldn't do for my son. Nothing.


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  • #61
    Faith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,662 Mod ✭✭✭✭Faith


    weird wrote: »

    Do you know why people do herion? When you do heroin you nod out, and enter a world void of emotional and physical pain... at least until you come to. He's self medicating and trying to escape the pain.

    Pain. Right, let's have a look at that, shall we? The OP said he's been with his gf for 10 years, or since the son was 12. His dad died a few years previously, from cancer, at let's say 9. That's extremely hard for anyone to deal with, particularly a child who won't understand what exactly is going on, but knows enough to be strongly affected by it. Meanwhile, his younger brother was approx. 5 or 6, ergo too young to understand what happened properly and thus may not be as upset by it as an older child.

    So, his Dad is dead and his mum is grieving. She probably clung tightly on to the kids to get her through the worst of the pain. Eldest children are generally overprotected anyway, so she was probably constantly there for him, giving him anything he wanted. Let's imagine that he never really dealt properly with the pain of his Dad dying. Then, on the precipice of puberty, a difficult time in anyone's life, his precious mum meets another man, and suddenly he isn't the centre of attention any more. He starts to act out, trying to get her to focus on him as much as she used to. It doesn't work the way he wanted, so he continues to act out more and more, resulting in the downward spiral landing him in prison. He probably sees the OP as trying to replace his Dad, and thinks it means that his Mum has forgotten about his Dad. This would no doubt cause a deep resentment to form. Perhaps any time the OP tried to bond with him, it just caused the son to push him further away as a punishment of sorts for not being his Dad.

    So if anyone's issues need to be dealt with, it's the son's, not the OP's. Now of course, that's all purely speculation above, but it's a lot less outlandish than your repeated statements that it's the OPs fault. No 12 year old child will have an easy time accepting a new partner of their parent. Some just deal with it better than others. So maybe if the son got some serious counselling and got to the root of his issues, he could start making progress and sorting his life out.

    And weird, you keep saying how the son was pushed out of his house - by the sounds of it, he voluntarily decided to go. I see nothing to indicate that he was banished.


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