Safety concern with advice given in DIY section

Stratocaster

DIY How handy Andy are you?

This is the title which represents the DIY thread, although it represents the thread well as DIY means do it your self. I don't believe some some of the subjects brought up in this section are do it your self matters. These subjects include Gas, Heating and Plumbing.

By all means I feel its fair to discuss all these subjects in a DIY section but I feel the safety concerns associated with un experienced advice given and undergone are not highlighted enough on these matters.

Recently I have noticed some posts and advice given in the DIY thread which have raised my concerns. These are just recent posts and I haven't looked at past posts for fear of raising them back up for more people to view un experienced advice given on subjects familiar to them.

I have been in discussions with some of the sites moderators and I have suggested moving all the said subjects to a separate section within the DIY section. This section would be similar to the electric section.

By doing this all the safety concerns with the advice given can be highlighted in the thread headlines. People can then freely exchange advice and information while at the same time the people receiving the information can view it with the safety concerns towards un experienced advice in mind.

Unfortunately in Ireland plumbing and heating works are carried out through minimal regulations this does not mean its a free for all and anyone can attempt to make changes and altercations within the said system. With the ever increasing changes in Government running I believe its only a matter of time before the water rate will be introduced and people will then suffer higher water costs with the systems both installed and maintained by un experienced people.

Our natural Gas supply will have a dim view towards gas related subjects discussed within boards.ie without the safety concerns addressed. This I believe will also be the case with our LPG suppliers.

As I have mentioned I am happy to see all the said subjects discussed as we can all learn and find tips and tricks etc by the information provided but all I ask is to move Gas, Heating, Plumbing to an individual section within the DIY section and have the safety concern addressed.

If you believe in what I am saying is true can you make a mention below also should you have any other suggestions you can also mention them. Many thanks.

slavetothegrind

Number 1: Gas. Not a DIY subject at all and to be fair it is usually pointed out as so in my experience on boards.

Number 2: Matters plumbing and heating.

Whilst there are dangers associated with tackling heating and plumbing problems there are a lot of smaller issues that can be dealt with here and have been sucessfully in the past.

There are several plumbers and engineers posting on here with sound advice and will inevitably advise professional assistance when needed.

You have to give some credit to the members here for having a degree of intelligence and not doing something stupid just coz the man on the interweb said so!

You know as well as i do the amount of cowboys out there in this game ( and all others) people often come here with their horror stories and get good advice on what to look out for, what to ask for etc.

Maybe there is validity in a seperate section as there are enough queries in this area here but on the safety side post a sticky if you want to, would be a good idea.

Lastly fair play to you for your input here and long may it continue!

jhegarty

I have never seen any "advise" given on gas here , except don't do it.

Do you have a link ?

Stratocaster

jhegarty wrote: »

I have never seen any "advise" given on gas here , except don't do it.

Do you have a link ?

There is one titled flueless gas fire smelling, you will also see other gas boiler related subjects through out the DIY thread.

There is no mention towards the safety of others while undergoing tasks associated with un experienced advice, all I am asking is for this to be highlighted within gas, heating and plumbing tasks. Dont let it be the fix later scenario as by that stage its too late. God only knows what sort of problem a poster might put up in this section and undertake the task according to un experienced advice.
It could possibly happen so there is no point in mentioning a fact of undermining the viewers, not when safety is concerned.

Just a separate section with a dedicated warning notice thats all I am asking. I am not trying to lock it down for only experienced advice given, that defeats the whole purpose of the site.

Just a warning notice provided located on top of a dedicated section. Also this will be easier for people to follow the said subjects as these issues are mixed up all over the DIY thread.

Cheers.

Forgot to mention everything can resume as normal as slavetothegrind has mentioned. Experienced people involved with boards.ie can have piece of mind knowing that all safety concerns are addressed. I am surprised no one has brought this subject up before.

slavetothegrind

Stratocaster wrote: »

Forgot to mention everything can resume as normal by the way slavetothegrind has mentioned just the experienced people involved with boards.ie can have piece of mind that the safety concerns are issued. I am surprised no one has brought this subject up before.

Punctuate my good man, i don't understand...:(

ART6

As far as I can recall just about every thread on DIY has someone sounding caution where there was a safety issue, and pretty much any advice where there are such issues also warns. Where electrics and gas are concerned I don't think dangerous advice would get past a couple of posts without being challenged. Let's not get too obsessed with health & safety -- it's more than enough of an obsession for the public sector and the politicians.

Stratocaster

Disclaimer:

Any electrical equipment may use or produce dangerous high voltages and may contain components running at hazardous temperatures. Great care must always be taken when working on such equipment, especially when it is powered and shortly after it has been powered. The absence of any specific safety warning does NOT imply that the action is safe. Live equipment and apparatus is always dangerous. If you are in any way unsure about your ability to work with electrical equipment safely, please refer the work to a qualified and experienced electrical contractor. A list of reputable contractors can be found on www.reci.ie or http://www.ecssa.ie/

Above text is mentioned for everyone to have in mind while discussing electrical matters in the electric thread.

I have been searching for something similar for everyone to have in mind while discussing gas, plumbing and heating matters. I cant find it.

There must be no dangers associated with gas, plumbing and heating.

Stratocaster

ART6 wrote: »

As far as I can recall just about every thread on DIY has someone sounding caution where there was a safety issue, and pretty much any advice where there are such issues also warns. Where electrics and gas are concerned I don't think dangerous advice would get past a couple of posts without being challenged. Let's not get too obsessed with health & safety -- it's more than enough of an obsession for the public sector and the politicians.

Its not an obsession, the internet is the number one source for information. Safety concerns have to be addressed. Gas, Oil, Heating and Plumbing must have safety concerns addressed and provided in clear view for everyone to see while sourcing information.

Your post is full of "as far as" or "I dont think" or "pretty much". How long will it take before someone takes some bad advice and becomes involved in an accident.

Someone could have solved a problem with advice given on boards.ie. The problem might have been solved but due to the alteration they might have effected the system. Later down line the alteration may cause an accident.

If there had been a clear message displayed with the dangers of making alterations by un experienced advice, maybe the person would not have made the alteration.

You don't know whats happening with the advice that has been given. So you have to inform people of the dangers.

This is not happening, I don't enjoy discussing this stuff, I shouldn't even have to bring this up.

I would fully support anything that makes this world a safer place, as i once worked as a British Gas emergency engineer(London,12 years) i have dealt with deaths from carbon monoxide poising and the after effects of gas explosions, that puts me in the position of having a professional opinion on gas safety, i have not seen many posts on gas that hasn't had proper and safe advise, some times it may take a while but it still kind of works, this site tends to be well policed by posters, as for boiler repairs, most post on gas boilers will say at some stage "you must have a RGII gas engineer to repair and service gas boilers", so i feel that side of things gets covered, so if it doesn't change i am not concerned, but if there were changes i would be happy, having well earned gas paranoia i would say you can never have to much safety information, but if i am honest i have found most people i have dealt with in Ireland don't care when it comes to gas safety, which is fine as i see this as natural selection:D, i would guess what ever you did people wouldn't read it and just post their question and wait for a reply and the same people how are posting now will post a answer with the same level of warnings, the only thing you could do is after the house bricks stop landing on their heads is tell them you told them so, as it was in the stickys you put up about gas safety, Gary.

Carlow52

ART6 wrote: »

As far as I can recall just about every thread on DIY has someone sounding caution where there was a safety issue, and pretty much any advice where there are such issues also warns. Where electrics and gas are concerned I don't think dangerous advice would get past a couple of posts without being challenged. Let's not get too obsessed with health & safety -- it's more than enough of an obsession for the public sector and the politicians.

I agree with the sentiment expressed by Art6 here: the proposal is to move gas, heating, plumbing to a separate section.
What will it be next week.

There is a risk with virtually all DIY stuff.

There is also a risk from stuff done by supposedly qualified and regulated trades so no merit in trying to separate out.

My vote is leave as is with perhaps a more specific warning sticky for elec/gas/heating/plumbing.

No need for a separate section:(

Bull76

Safety concerns are for real and should be followed. I for one believe there should be some form of disclaimer. As in most problems or issues, attitudes of most "ah sure I'll give it a go, what could go wrong". Thats not the correct mentality to have. It's okay to give advise if the person requesting it knows the concerns and is also competent at the task in question.
But most on here accept if working on something to actually isolate it. It shouldn't be neccesary to state this everytime, but it does be.

Just my input.

Stratocaster

Thanks for all the comments on support and suggestions.

I feel some of you are reading into it too much. I am not waving a big health and safety flag.

They way things are going in Ireland money is tight, people are seeking affordable solutions to household problems. They are coming to places like boards.ie in order to see if its possible to fix there own problems.

I would like to be able to give advice so people can attempt to fix the problems and to arm them with knowledge of the problem. Once people can come to terms with the problem there is a reduced risk of being ripped off should they call an expert etc.

I am not comfortable giving advice without attaching all the dangers associated with said advice. I try to attach the dangers where I can but its not possible to do so each and every time. My posts will become long and time consuming. I am sure a few here on boards.ie feel the same.

Having a dedicated Gas, Oil, Heating, Plumbing section with a "sticky" typed up to suit the dangers associated is the only way to go.

By having this people can give advice freely knowing the danger aspect is covered within the thread rules. All Gas, Oil, Heating, Plumbing subjects will be together in one section. People can view past subjects which relate to advice they seek.

A lot of the same subjects seem to come up but they get buried to the bottom. A dedicated section can make these posts a valuable resource. For moderators a dedicated section will be easier to moderate and attach information they find useful.

Stratocaster

Carlow52 wrote: »

I agree with the sentiment here: the proposal is to move gas, heating, plumbing to a separate section.
What will it be next week.

There is a risk with virtually all DIY stuff.

There is also a risk from stuff done by supposedly qualified and regulated trades so no merit in trying to separate out.

My vote is leave as is with perhaps a more specify warning sticky for elec/gas/heating/plumbing.

No need for a separate section:

I have to disagree with you here. I am not picking on you or anything its for the moderators to view all the pros and cons etc.

Gas, Oil, Plumbing, Heating are all high risk subjects not DIY subjects. Electricity is a high risk subject and boards.ie has dealt with it.

Boards.ie gives the impression of Gas, Oil, Plumbing, Heating being DIY subjects.

To remove the impression of Gas, Oil, Plumbing, Heating, as DIY subjects boards.ie should make it a separate section if a separate section is not possible a new "sticky" should be wrote up to add the dangers associated with the said subject.

This should only take a few minutes. I cant understand why its not already there.

I am talking about a subject which is familiar to me and expressing my concerns. If anyone else has any feelings towards other forms of DIY risks, its up to them to discuss.

CJhaughey

I don't think it merits a seperate section, the whole home and garden section is pretty legible as it is, putting more and more subfora on makes it unwieldy.
Most people have enough sense that they know when to call a professional, and if they don't Darwins theory will thin the herd a little:D
When did you last hear of someone posting back here sayin that they blew their house to bits after an internet guy told 'em to do something?
People give good advice here and are very quick to point out dangers to others that might not understand the ramifications of it.
Whats next? that woodworking should have a safety sticky because you could cut your digits off easily with a circular saw?
Internet advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

Stratocaster

CJhaughey wrote: »

I don't think it merits a seperate section, the whole home and garden section is pretty legible as it is, putting more and more subfora on makes it unwieldy.
Most people have enough sense that they know when to call a professional, and if they don't Darwins theory will thin the herd a little:D
When did you last hear of someone posting back here sayin that they blew their house to bits after an internet guy told 'em to do something?
People give good advice here and are very quick to point out dangers to others that might not understand the ramifications of it.
Whats next? that woodworking should have a safety sticky because you could cut your digits off easily with a circular saw?
Internet advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

People wont come back for fear of embarrassment. Or should we just wait until someone does come back? Whats worse is you don't seem to understand this. The matters I am talking about are not to be categorized as DIY, it sends out the wrong impression.

We have this whole, ah sure nothings wrong now, we'll fix it when something comes up mentality here. Look where we are now.

I am not prepared to let something like this happen within a trade I am associated with.

Would you be happy to see no mention towards the dangers of electricity on boards.ie I doubt it.

Martron

for what my 2 cents are worth i am a construction engineer. i am a jack of all trades and master of none.

i will never give advice on something that i have never tried myself or have not felt confident on trying without a bit of common sense.

this is a forum like a brainstorming session. ideas get bounced of all the forum contributors. and a solution of sorts is reached.

there is 2 phrases that i have come across in my career

1, if it does not look right...... its not!!!
2, (supplied by my dad after i moved house) dont f*ck with gas or electricity!!!!

water will leave a mess


the advice here is advice only and not gospel and everyone who post here knows that they are open to correction.

if you go through any thread here i am pretty sure that most posters says that there adivce (unless cetain) is to be taken with a pinch of salt..... and imho you should not consult the internet unless you have an idea of the way things are going to go anyway.

i will continue offering on my opinion and advice unless told otherwise.

i think the advice given here is good and strongly corrected if not.

i have been corrected in the past and have learned from that.

as has everybody who have read the posts.
i enjoy contributing to this forum and will continue to do so unless told otherwise( and i will contest it strongly as i feel i contribute valuable information to this forum)

Stratocaster

Martron can you read over the thread again as I don't think you have read it clearly enough.

I am looking to have the said matters viewed in the same form as electricity.

No one is suggesting stopping people from giving advice.

Just a warning notice associated with Oil, Gas, Heating, Plumbing works carried out by un experienced advice given.

Everyone mentions the "most do this" and "I am pretty sure" that's not enough.

Martron

my bad stratocaster

i dont think there is a seperate section needed .

as i said in my post before people consult the almighty source of misinformation that is the internet they generally have an idea of the solution to the problem already.

i understand your concerns.
but people should know better to understand the dangers associated with electricity and gas.

and also if you put it in a seperate section you will still have the same people commenting on the posts.

Stratocaster

Martron wrote: »

my bad stratocaster

i dont think there is a seperate section needed .

as i said in my post before people consult the almighty source of misinformation that is the internet they generally have an idea of the solution to the problem already.

i understand your concerns.
but people should know better to understand the dangers associated with electricity and gas.

and also if you put it in a seperate section you will still have the same people commenting on the posts.

No bother Martron. People should no better but sometimes they don't.

I have no problems with anyone giving advice I am just asking the dangers to be highlighted. Nothing more nothing less. A separate section will be more beneficial to all as the same subjects regularly pop up. Having them located in one section will be better for everyone, there is enough interest in the said subjects.

Martron

i have pm you . i really do understand your concern as ther is some ddgy advice here. by one off posters,

but in general i do believe if the job is particularly risky most posters here will highlight the main hazards .

and the majority of posters can see if the job is over the op head they will suggest the support of a pro.

i dont think there is need for seperate section

because if bogey advice is given it is quickly corrected.

but maybe we can be stricter with reporting of posts. maybe if a post gets reported for bad info. the poster gets banned?

and then maybe there will be thought put into posts.

(is there such thing as site wide ban?)

Martron

maybe it would be benefitial to create a thread of what regular posters/advice givers backgrounds are.

its obvious from my previous posts and post history that i am involved in construction and i can offer advice in construction related topics any other advice outsid that is from my own experience.

i think i will start a thread with this topic so we all know where we stand.

as in if someone is recieving info they know its from a plumber rather than a randomer.

or in fact i could offer suggestion about a plumbing question from my own experience and then an actual plumber poster can then ad the definitive advice on it

ART6

Stratocaster wrote: »

Its not an obsession, the internet is the number one source for information. Safety concerns have to be addressed. Gas, Oil, Heating and Plumbing must have safety concerns addressed and provided in clear view for everyone to see while sourcing information.

Your post is full of "as far as" or "I dont think" or "pretty much". How long will it take before someone takes some bad advice and becomes involved in an accident.

Someone could have solved a problem with advice given on boards.ie. The problem might have been solved but due to the alteration they might have effected the system. Later down line the alteration may cause an accident.

If there had been a clear message displayed with the dangers of making alterations by un experienced advice, maybe the person would not have made the alteration.

You don't know whats happening with the advice that has been given. So you have to inform people of the dangers.

This is not happening, I don't enjoy discussing this stuff, I shouldn't even have to bring this up.

Just to put the record straight, I was not accusing you personally of having an obsession with H&S, but was making the point that there is often nowadays too much obsession with it to the extent that nothing gets done for fear of accident. As to my other remarks that concern you, I understood you to be seeking opinions, and I gave mine in the form of "I don't think" etc. If that was not the form of response you were seeking then I'm sorry. Perhaps I misread your OP. In any case, to return to topic, my point was that if someone posts bad advice it is always picked up and contested by someone, so I disagree that we need any special provision in this forum.

CJhaughey

Stratocaster wrote: »

People wont come back for fear of embarrassment. Or should we just wait until someone does come back? Whats worse is you don't seem to understand this. The matters I am talking about are not to be categorized as DIY, it sends out the wrong impression.

We have this whole, ah sure nothings wrong now, we'll fix it when something comes up mentality here. Look where we are now.

I am not prepared to let something like this happen within a trade I am associated with.

Would you be happy to see no mention towards the dangers of electricity on boards.ie I doubt it.

I do understand it, and I also plumbed my whole house myself, I am still here and my house is also standing and dry:rolleyes:
You are not prepared to let what happen?

There is always someone ready to wade in if someone is talking guff about electric, likewise boilers and gas.
I have never seen advice to an average OP that asked a question about gas or boilers that went along the lines of "era give it a lash, you'll be grand" There is usually good advice given and that includes the advice to call a professional.

Like I said no need for another subsection just a sticky warning people.

Carlow52

Stratocaster wrote: »

People wont come back for fear of embarrassment. Or should we just wait until someone does come back? Whats worse is you don't seem to understand this. The matters I am talking about are not to be categorized as DIY, it sends out the wrong impression.

We have this whole, ah sure nothings wrong now, we'll fix it when something comes up mentality here. Look where we are now.

I am not prepared to let something like this happen within a trade I am associated with.

Would you be happy to see no mention towards the dangers of electricity on boards.ie I doubt it.

In relation to what I have bolded above my advice to you is to try clear out the cowboys in the trade as the problem there is that it brings the rest of the trade into disrepute as well as give a false sense of security to the customer.

There is a need to upskill the trades and bring them into the 22nd Century.

Setting up new sections on this forum will achieve nothing: perhaps the sysmods could devise a piece of code which would automatically add a brief warning such "as if in doubt take professional advice" to the bottom of each post or on each page.

Using a list of key words as a trigger will not work due to spelling issues

davelerave

shifting 'heating and plumbing' questions to a dedicated forum (if neccessary)would automatically eliminate a lot of 'low-grade' input.a 'sticky warning' on each thread as already mentioned is another possibility.the 'label' diy
is misleading as the main purpose is 'information sharing' and consensus based advice.

Stratocaster

I have said all I have to say, its now up to the moderators to view the whole thread and do whats best.

The only thing I have to add is the sheer volume of plumbing and heating posts. There is enough at this stage to make a dedicated section justified.