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Time for a national maximum wage.

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    #62
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    Yes. If you recieve public money take a cap on your earnings.

    public salaries are capped you know...there is a maximum each Post can earn


    in relation to tax bands, I recently heard about "optimal tax" theory which suggests there should in fact be just one rate of tax (lower than what we have at present) but no tax-free allowance element


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    #63
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I think the OP has a fundamental misunderstanding of what money is, and how it works as a means of exchange for goods and services.

    It is also quite clear that the hate for economists has meant the OP never learning what an economy is.


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    #64
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,424 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    tlev wrote: »
    No but limiting the amount you can make in a capitalist economy is bad. Motivates people to either a) leave b)make money illegally

    Allowing people to earn 10 times more than other full time workers is hardly a breach of their human rights

    People like you always say that high taxes 'motivate people to dodge taxes' as if that justifies reducing taxes, but you would never accept that low wages would 'motivate' people to steal as a justification for increasing welfare or minimum wages.

    In Ireland, we have the low paid taking the brunt of the effects in this crisis, while the super rich are creaming millions in 'bonuses' and 'pensions' and golden handshakes etc.


    One other point. Concentration of wealth in the hands of a few individuals is extremely inefficient. The money tends to be squandered gambled and invested in ego projects that have very little benefit to the economy.

    Above a certain level, increased wages are no longer an incentive to do increased work. And increased incomes are either saved, or squandered, or used to buy political power and influence. None of which is good for the economy or the country.

    Low wage earners in contrast are much better for the economy, they spend the majority of their incomes in the local economy. The money earned by minimum wage workers circulates almost immediately and usually goes towards essentials like utilities, clothes, food transport. The multiplier effect is much greater if the distribution of wealth is much more equal.


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    #65
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Fair enough Akrasia, but you completely fail to appreciate the necessity of motivation in an economy. If you have you maximum wage motivation will dive. With less "rich" people above taking risks and creating employment there simply wont be any low wage earners to spend money!


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    #66
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,424 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    turgon wrote: »
    Fair enough Akrasia, but you completely fail to appreciate the necessity of motivation in an economy. If you have you maximum wage motivation will dive. With less "rich" people above taking risks and creating employment there simply wont be any low wage earners to spend money!
    Its only very recently that anyone outside the realm of aristocracy could claim to earn more than 10 times the wage of another full time worker.

    People who earn 70-80k are justifiably regarded as very well off (although many in that category have stupidly thrown away all their disposable income on over priced property and bad investments)
    People on 200k a year are at an income gap on par with the barons and lords of feudal society.

    Most of the people in Ireland who earn these kinds of salaries do not create jobs. They are from the professional classes,politicians, Lecturers, doctors, architects, lawyers, bankers 'consultants' and CEOs (CEOs in general are not entrapreneurs, but administrators)

    The cost of these 'professionals' adds to the cost base for our economy and they are terrible value for money.


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    #67
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    turgon wrote: »
    Fair enough Akrasia, but you completely fail to appreciate the necessity of motivation in an economy. If you have you maximum wage motivation will dive. With less "rich" people above taking risks and creating employment there simply wont be any low wage earners to spend money!
    Or, there will be more people on a comfortable wage taking risks and creating employment.
    Was it only rich people that took out all those mortages?
    A maximum wage may drive talented people away, but i don't see what's preventing them from moving their talents overseas at the present anyway.
    Besides, a maximum wage has never been attempted, insofar as i am aware.
    And i for one, would be willing to give it a try.
    We can always repeal legislation you know.


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    #68
    rcecil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭rcecil


    sang the choir.... What do the pigs at our trough contribute? Oh yeah, they GIVE us jobs. Of course all the people opposing this idea have already made their millions and ALL of us can become the CEO of AIB if only we just worked harder, went back to school or pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps just like they did.... Har de Har har.... It's time for majority rule not the majority fooled.


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    #69
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Riskymove wrote: »
    public salaries are capped you know...there is a maximum each Post can earn

    Ah yeah, I'm saying I have no problem with this.
    I see no reason not to carry this over to private companies who are bailed out (until the bailout is repaid)


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    #70
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    dvpower wrote: »
    Of course not. I'm thinking more along the lines of making the more well off contribute some more in return for lowering the minimum wage (thus making the less well off contribute more).

    Why should a doctor, judge or senior solicitor have to pay more tax because the Government were stupid enough to raise the minimum wage too high? Arguing for a tax rise as a retaliatory measure for lowering the minimum wage is the worst kind of populism.


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    #71
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Akrasia wrote: »
    In Ireland, we have the low paid taking the brunt of the effects in this crisis, while the super rich are creaming millions in 'bonuses' and 'pensions' and golden handshakes etc.

    I'd take issue with this, some of the super rich are creaming millions but some of the super rich have also lost large portions of their wealth. Also the rich, but not super rich, have been hammered with higher tax raises than anyone else and can reasonable look forward to more being asked of them. The middle class are facing job losses, high mortgage payments, tax raises and cuts in hours.

    The low paid on the other hand have it easy by comparison. I've some sympathy for those stuck on welfare payments (i.e. disability, pensions etc) but little for the low paid. It's deflation time, rents and prices are falling, they're not being hit by the brunt of the tax hikes and they're not being as hard by the cuts in welfare. It's still no joke to be poorly paid in this country but to argue that they're suffering the most is disingenuous. Losing your job when you're a renter is a far more pleasant experience than losing it when you've a mortgage tied around your neck.



    As a side point: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0729/1224251576854.html?digest=1

    Some of the super rich are having their worlds implode by the way.


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    #72
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    nesf wrote: »
    Why should a doctor, judge or senior solicitor have to pay more tax because the Government were stupid enough to raise the minimum wage too high? Arguing for a tax rise as a retaliatory measure for lowering the minimum wage is the worst kind of populism.

    Raising tax on the highest earners in the country does not reduce their basic spending power. It may reduce their ability to save money, but saving money is not going to get this country back on its feet. We need people spending.

    Lowering the minimum wage or increasing taxes for lower paid workers does reduces their spending power, it removes money from the economy and further contracts it.


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    #73
    Boggle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Boggle


    nesf wrote: »
    The middle class are facing job losses, high mortgage payments, tax raises and cuts in hours.

    The low paid on the other hand have it easy by comparison. I've some sympathy for those stuck on welfare payments (i.e. disability, pensions etc) but little for the low paid. It's deflation time, rents and prices are falling, they're not being hit by the brunt of the tax hikes and they're not being as hard by the cuts in welfare. It's still no joke to be poorly paid in this country but to argue that they're suffering the most is disingenuous. Losing your job when you're a renter is a far more pleasant experience than losing it when you've a mortgage tied around your neck.
    Deflation my backside. Just doing my insurance and it is gone from €350 last year to around €500 this year. Petrol/diesel is on the way up. The shopping has not gotten any cheaper - maybe when tesco implements the new scheme here but that'll only be temporary and will creep up again. My rent is the same (and will attempt to go up with property tax). What else do I spend my money on???
    The only people who have any relief are mortgage holders and that's only temporary (call it the lull before the storm).

    As for losing you job when your a renter thing: ridiculous. If I lost my job, what are me and herself to do? Break up? Move in with mammy?

    Some of the super rich are having their worlds implode by the way.
    No they are not. If you are rich you have money stashed. Simple as.


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    #74
    Boggle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Boggle


    nesf wrote: »
    Why should a doctor, judge or senior solicitor have to pay more tax because the Government were stupid enough to raise the minimum wage too high? Arguing for a tax rise as a retaliatory measure for lowering the minimum wage is the worst kind of populism.
    They should pay more tax because they can.

    Dropping minimum wage, while probably necessary, is still disgusting. There's not much living on €300 per week if you have a family.


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    #75
    Hookey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Hookey


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Raising tax on the highest earners in the country does not reduce their basic spending power. It may reduce their ability to save money, but saving money is not going to get this country back on its feet. We need people spending.

    Lowering the minimum wage or increasing taxes for lower paid workers does reduces their spending power, it removes money from the economy and further contracts it.

    Of course it reduces their basic spending power! You're working on the assumption that everyone has a similar basic level of spending requirements and above that, income is "disposable". Reality, as you surely know if you're not just trolling, is nothing like that.

    As for reducing minimum wage removing money from the economy; at the individual level this is true, but as it gives the opportunity to create more jobs, at country level money in circulation goes up.

    This isn't to say a few more graduated tax bands for seriously high earners wouldn't go amiss (although as I pointed out in an earlier post, not as much as you might think), but that's a very different proposition from 100% tax.


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    #76
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Boggle wrote: »
    They should pay more tax because they can.

    Dropping minimum wage, while probably necessary, is still disgusting. There's not much living on €300 per week if you have a family.

    You miss my point, it's not that they can't afford to pay more tax, they can, it's that raising tax levels purely because you're making cuts elsewhere is silly. Tax raises should occur when the State needs the cash, not because some other group has to face some cut.


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    #77
    Boggle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Boggle


    nesf wrote: »
    You miss my point, it's not that they can't afford to pay more tax, they can, it's that raising tax levels purely because you're making cuts elsewhere is silly. Tax raises should occur when the State needs the cash, not because some other group has to face some cut.
    I thought we needed the cash... my bad!!


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    #78
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Boggle wrote: »
    As for losing you job when your a renter thing: ridiculous. If I lost my job, what are me and herself to do? Break up? Move in with mammy?

    You again miss my point, it's not that losing one's job is ever a pleasant experience, it's that losing your job as a renter puts you under far less pressure than losing your job as a mortgage holder.


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    #79
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Boggle wrote: »
    I thought we needed the cash... my bad!!

    We do need cash, and that's why we should raise taxes and cut spending, not because of a minimum wage cut and believe me taxes on the rich and middle class will be raised again in the near future.


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    #80
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    Hookey wrote: »
    Of course it reduces their basic spending power! You're working on the assumption that everyone has a similar basic level of spending requirements and above that, income is "disposable". Reality, as you surely know if you're not just trolling, is nothing like that.

    As for reducing minimum wage removing money from the economy; at the individual level this is true, but as it gives the opportunity to create more jobs, at country level money in circulation goes up.

    This isn't to say a few more graduated tax bands for seriously high earners wouldn't go amiss (although as I pointed out in an earlier post, not as much as you might think), but that's a very different proposition from 100% tax.

    Why would think I was trolling. Do you assume that everyone you disagree with is a troll???

    Show me evidence that suggests that lowering the minimum wage here would create jobs??


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    #81
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Show me evidence that suggests that lowering the minimum wage here would create jobs??

    Evidence? Google minimum wage and job creation and you'll get a bunch of stuff. The general argument is that an overly high minimum wage stops companies hiring an extra worker because they won't profit from it. The question then becomes: "Do we want more workers paid slightly less or less workers paid slightly more?". The answer to this question depends a lot on your politics and your belief on the role of the State in welfare etc.


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    #82
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    nesf wrote: »
    Evidence? Google minimum wage and job creation and you'll get a bunch of stuff. The general argument is that an overly high minimum wage stops companies hiring an extra worker because they won't profit from it. The question then becomes: "Do we want more workers paid slightly less or less workers paid slightly more?". The answer to this question depends a lot on your politics and your belief on the role of the State in welfare etc.

    Your assuming our minimum wage is overly high and I dont believe it is. You earn about €350 a week for a 40hr week. Thats a decent basic wage. People can survive on that. You lower that and suddenly people start to struggle.

    It may surprise you to learn that only a very small percentage of the full time workforce earn minimum wage. Its somewhere between 2-4%. If the minimum wage was so high, why then are more people not employed at that basic rate??


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    #83
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Your assuming our minimum wage is overly high and I dont believe it is. You earn about €350 a week for a 40hr week. Thats a decent basic wage. People can survive on that. You lower that and suddenly people start to struggle.

    But then if minimum wage hadnt become so high, would the prices have not gone so high?

    In an economy one cant talk in isolation. Everything is connected.
    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    It may surprise you to learn that only a very small percentage of the full time workforce earn minimum wage. Its somewhere between 2-4%.

    Minimum wage becomes a benchmark for other jobs. Also companies like Aldi appear to compete with minimum wage, so if minimum wage was lower Aldis pay would be lower etc.


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    #84
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    turgon wrote: »
    But then if minimum wage hadnt become so high, would the prices have not gone so high?

    In an economy one cant talk in isolation. Everything is connected.

    Minimum wage becomes a benchmark for other jobs. Also companies like Aldi appear to compete with minimum wage, so if minimum wage was lower Aldis pay would be lower etc.

    Was the minimum wage not increased over the years to keep up with the increases in prices??

    Why would they compete if its so prohibitive to employment. During the boom I can understand they needed to offer more in order to attract people. IKEA opened this week and they pay above minimum wage. They would have no need to do so as there is a wealth of labour to choose from and many hungry for any job??

    The fact is its not prohibitive at all. If you cant make money in business in this country paying minimum wage then either your business model is wrong or your just not very good at it. Either way you shouldnt be in business.


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    #85
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Well which came first, the chicken or the egg? Higher wages or higher prices?

    I do not know IKEA's rationale for paying high. Perhaps they want to get the best laborers and get them loyal. I know that Aldi pay so high because they literally work their workers to the bone.

    As regards your poor business model: you fail to realize that we do not have a blanket minimum wage. "Entertainment" outlets pay less, and are allowed to do so by law. Something like €7 an hour. And yet I still see loads of cinemas and clubs around, and, mpore importantly, loads of people willing to work in them.

    In either case, why should minimum wage be enforced? Surely if employers offer a wage one cant live off, no one will take the job and they will have to raise their offer?


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    #86
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    turgon wrote: »
    Well which came first, the chicken or the egg? Higher wages or higher prices?

    I do not know IKEA's rationale for paying high. Perhaps they want to get the best laborers and get them loyal. I know that Aldi pay so high because they literally work their workers to the bone.

    As regards your poor business model: you fail to realize that we do not have a blanket minimum wage. "Entertainment" outlets pay less, and are allowed to do so by law. Something like €7 an hour. And yet I still see loads of cinemas and clubs around, and, mpore importantly, loads of people willing to work in them.

    In either case, why should minimum wage be enforced? Surely if employers offer a wage one cant live off, no one will take the job and they will have to raise their offer?

    I agree with the chicken and egg scenario.

    I have not seen anything that allows entertainment outlets pay less. People under 18 get less. Those with no previous experience get less. Those on apprenticeships and training/study programmes get paid less. There is also a provision where employers can claim inability to pay. The labour court can allow a reduction if a majority of employees agree and where the employer can demonstrate that jobs would be lost if it remained in force. Can you show what jobs your talking about??

    The problem is you end up with people having to tae second jobs to make ends meet. This is an unacceptable situation imo.


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    #87
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    The minimum wage is hated by the ideological Right. Just as they despise universal healthcare, public education, and progressive taxation.

    They will continue to foam and ferment and stew in the unjustness of it all, but the reality is that these are battles that were won by the Left over 50 years ago. They work, they are popular and they are impossible to repeal.

    My advice to the resident Milton Friedman fan boys is to get on with their lives, get a girlfriend, have a laugh, and take an interest in the practical side of politics – like arguing for a flatter tax, not a flat tax, it's just not going to happen lads.


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    #88
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Can you show what jobs your talking about??

    Unfortunately Ive no links. I can tell you that the local cinema in my town pay less than minimum wage, I'm friends with a lot of the people working there. My brother has also worked in a night club where he got less than minimum wage. In both cases they stated it was because said establishments were in the "entertainment" business.


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    #89
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    The minimum wage is hated by the ideological Right.

    I doubt many people hate minimum wage. Although it is disagreed with by many people who understand economics. But we all know the one constant in an economics argument is those with a knowledge of economics dont know what theyre talking about.
    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    They work, they are popular and they are impossible to repeal.

    Well they have certainly worked in making Ireland utterly uncompetitive with countries like Poland. Also, the fact they are popular means nothing. Racial discrimination was popular in the Southern States in the '60's.


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    #90
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    turgon wrote: »
    Unfortunately Ive no links. I can tell you that the local cinema in my town pay less than minimum wage, I'm friends with a lot of the people working there. My brother has also worked in a night club where he got less than minimum wage. In both cases they stated it was because said establishments were in the "entertainment" business.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/pay-and-employment/pay_inc_min_wage

    You can check out this link and see if I have missed something but I dont think I have. I suggest that the employers are maybe taking advantage of people who dont fully know their rights.If people are ok with working for less thats ok with me, but the employer is breaking the law.


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    #91
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    turgon wrote: »
    I doubt many people hate minimum wage. Although it is disagreed with by many people who understand economics. But we all know the one constant in an economics argument is those with a knowledge of economics dont know what theyre talking about.



    Well they have certainly worked in making Ireland utterly uncompetitive with countries like Poland. Also, the fact they are popular means nothing. Racial discrimination was popular in the Southern States in the '60's.

    Yes, because social welfare is morally equivalent to racial discrimination…

    You see, I'm quite right, you guys do have a deep seated hatred of what most people reguard as human decency.


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