Time for a national maximum wage.

Taxipete29

turgon wrote: »

Well they have certainly worked in making Ireland utterly uncompetitive with countries like Poland. Also, the fact they are popular means nothing. Racial discrimination was popular in the Southern States in the '60's.

Poland was under a communist banner up till about 20 years ago. Its hardly comparing like with like. We have a much more developed economy. Will they still be as competitive in 10 or 20 years time?? I think not

turgon

Taxipete29 wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/pay-and-employment/pay_inc_min_wage

:

An experienced adult employee for the purposes of the National Minimum Wage Act is an employee who has an employment of any kind in any 2 years over the age of 18.

I see now, obviously my friends did not have 2 years done.

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Yes, because social welfare is morally equivalent to racial discrimination…

No, your point was that it being popular was rationale for keeping it. I simply gave an example where something was popular but clearly shouldn't have been kept.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Poland was under a communist banner up till about 20 years ago. Its hardly comparing like with like. We have a much more developed economy. Will they still be as competitive in 10 or 20 years time?? I think not

In terms of "Dell" jobs, then perhaps like with like. Less face it: Ireland isnt 100% educated workforce so we need to be open to all kinds of employment. Celarly we have lost our edge.

ei.sdraob

turgon give up

let the welfare state run its course



some of the posters here dont grasp the reality that theres alot less people paying tax due to a global downturn and local property bubble bursting

yet welfare and public costs are mounting
and so is the interest and external debt


neither do these posters try to propose a solution, putting spuds in ears and singing lalala would not make reality go away, wake the **** up people

:cool:

Exile 1798

turgon wrote: »

:

No, your point was that it being popular was rationale for keeping it. I simply gave an example where something was popular but clearly shouldn't have been kept.

No, it's overwhelming popularity is why it will be kept - not why it should. My point was that you guys should cut your 50 year old losses.

Segregation in the Southern United States, a moral outrage, was ended by a mass movement in which people where beaten, jailed and killed.

I can hardly see any mass movement eventuating to scrap the minimum wage - much less any of your kind dying or going to jail over it. I can however imagine the opposite, a large movement of people to maintain the minimum wage if it where ever threatened – which it won't be.

The only realistic question is should it be raised, or should it be kept as is? But your chaps will expend so much time and energy arguing for it's abolishment that you'll be completely blindsided when we double it.

Exile 1798

ei.sdraob wrote: »

turgon give up

let the welfare state run its course



some of the posters here dont grasp the reality that theres alot less people paying tax due to a global downturn and local property bubble bursting

yet welfare and public costs are mounting
and so is the interest and external debt


neither do these posters try to propose a solution, putting spuds in ears and singing lalala would not make reality go away, wake the **** up people

:cool:

Well if you really care about economic reform and alterations to the welfare state why don't you argue for realistic, rational changes?

Or do you prefer to **** on about how society dosent exist and taxation is theft?

Taxipete29

ei.sdraob wrote: »

turgon give up

let the welfare state run its course



some of the posters here dont grasp the reality that theres alot less people paying tax due to a global downturn and local property bubble bursting

yet welfare and public costs are mounting
and so is the interest and external debt


neither do these posters try to propose a solution, putting spuds in ears and singing lalala would not make reality go away, wake the **** up people

:cool:

And this has exactly what to do with what were talking about??

You lower the minimum wage, do you think enough jobs will be created to lower the welfare bill siginificantly?? No, all that will serve to do is create a new level of working poor.

You talk of solutions, but all you would do is cut cut and cut again. This is not a solution. A junir cert student could come up with the cuts that have been proposed. They do not however do anything to stimulate the economy. They only remove money from the economy causing further contraction.

Economics is not an exact science by any means so how can you be sure your right and were wrong??

ei.sdraob

Exile 1798 wrote: »

why don't you argue for realistic, rational changes?

such as?

Taxipete29 wrote: »

You talk of solutions, but all you would do is cut cut and cut again. This is not a solution. A junir cert student could come up with the cuts that have been proposed. They do not however do anything to stimulate the economy. They only remove money from the economy causing further contraction.

let us hear your solutions, pretty please?!

Taxipete29

ei.sdraob wrote: »

such as?



let us hear your solutions, pretty please?!

You have an attitude problem towards people who dont agree with you. Your condescending tone is more suited to the playground than any sort of debate.

I dont have all the answers nor do I claim to, but I did ask you a question which you failed to answer. What makes you think your answers are right and we are wrong??

Red Sleeping Beauty

ei.sdraob wrote: »

turgon give up

let the welfare state run its course



some of the posters here dont grasp the reality that theres alot less people paying tax due to a global downturn and local property bubble bursting

yet welfare and public costs are mounting
and so is the interest and external debt


neither do these posters try to propose a solution, putting spuds in ears and singing lalala would not make reality go away, wake the **** up people

:cool:

There's a lot less tax being collected due to amount of tax that "high earners" pay being proportionality small compared to their income. Ireland is still quite a rich country.

ei.sdraob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

You have an attitude problem towards people who dont agree with you. Your condescending tone is more suited to the playground than any sort of debate.

I dont have all the answers nor do I claim to, but I did ask you a question which you failed to answer. What makes you think your answers are right and we are wrong??

im trying to come up with solutions here. you still haven't woken up to the realities and seeing the issues, nevermind proposing solutions to these issues

i joined this thread as 100% tax is craziest thing I ever heard and will cause more issues than solve

anyways my proposed solutions to the economic crisis in Ireland

1. lower welfare to UK levels
2. cut public spending to EU average
3. lower minimum wage to EU average
4. invest in more renewable's, better grid and nuclear power in order to lower energy costs
5. scrap nama
6. introduce property taxes

first 2 would address budget deficit which is getting wider by the day and more expensive as interest rates go up, any money we take on loan today means paying an arm and leg for down the road by us and our children

3rd will help regain some competitiveness and slowdown the rate jobs are leaving this country

4th would lower the high energy costs which are partly responsible for rip off ireland

5th NAMA is a bad joke holding up house prices, let them crash back to reality, no need to spend all them billions in order to keep the show running

6th would hit BTL landlords in pocket, these people contribute absolutely nothing of value nor create any wealth, they taught they can be cuuute whoors by making money by the difference on low interest rates and high rents

now lets listen you your proposals

...

nesf

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Your assuming our minimum wage is overly high and I dont believe it is. You earn about €350 a week for a 40hr week. Thats a decent basic wage. People can survive on that. You lower that and suddenly people start to struggle.

It may surprise you to learn that only a very small percentage of the full time workforce earn minimum wage. Its somewhere between 2-4%. If the minimum wage was so high, why then are more people not employed at that basic rate??

Prices are high because wages are high and wages are high because prices are high. The minimum wage isn't paid to a large number of people for many reasons but it sets the floor for wages and this effects employment. Whether it's worth having the extra jobs in exchange for lowering the rate is a value call that's going to be different person to person. Right now our biggest problem is that our wages are grossly inflated compared to the rest of the EU, as such they need to come down. The first step in this will be a small reduction in the minimum wage, a painful and hard step to take but a necessary one.

Reducing our wage level is going to be painful for the vast majority of us. We can't devalue our currency, which essentially is equivalent though people don't seem to realise that because they get paid the same number month on month but their buying power decreases so they might as well have gotten a wage cut. We've been grossly overpaying ourselves over the past decade and now we are reaping the result and finding out that it's painful.

Taxipete29

ei.sdraob wrote: »

my proposed solutions to the economic crisis in Ireland

1. lower welfare to UK levels
2. cut public spending to EU average
3. lower minimum wage to EU average
4. invest in more renewable's, better grid and nuclear power in order to lower energy costs
5. scrap nama

first 2 would address budget deficit which is getting wider by the day and more expensive as interest rates go up, any money we take on loan today means paying an arm and leg for down the road by us and our children

3rd will help regain some competitiveness and slowdown the rate jobs are leaving this country

4th would lower the high energy costs which are partly responsible for rip off ireland

5th NAMA is a bad joke holding up house prices, let them crash back to reality, no need to spend all them billions in order to keep the show running


now lets listen you your proposals

1, Nationalise the banks. This doesnt commit us to valuing assets at a time when the market is still falling. It also doesnt commit us to spending billions on assets we will never see a return for.

2, PS wages need to be cut to reflect private sector equivalent ie benchmarking in reverse.( I dont like this but feel its necesary)

3, Incentives for employment and job creation.

4, The PS needs reform. Redeployment is the key to acheiving value for money.

5,Reduce our foreign aid budget to 0 for the next 3 years.

6,An increased National development programme, building of infrastructure vital to our future as an economy.

These are just some of the proposals I feel will better serve our economy into the future. They will help to reduce the spending and help stimulate the economy.

Taxipete29

nesf wrote: »

Prices are high because wages are high and wages are high because prices are high. The minimum wage isn't paid to a large number of people for many reasons but it sets the floor for wages and this effects employment. Whether it's worth having the extra jobs in exchange for lowering the rate is a value call that's going to be different person to person. Right now our biggest problem is that our wages are grossly inflated compared to the rest of the EU, as such they need to come down. The first step in this will be a small reduction in the minimum wage, a painful and hard step to take but a necessary one.

Reducing our wage level is going to be painful for the vast majority of us. We can't devalue our currency, which essentially is equivalent though people don't seem to realise that because they get paid the same number month on month but their buying power decreases so they might as well have gotten a wage cut. We've been grossly overpaying ourselves over the past decade and now we are reaping the result and finding out that it's painful.

Ireland has been more expensive than the rest of europe long before we had a minimum wage and long before the boom.

Whats a small reduction?? 10%??

It may of escaped your notice but wages are already dropping across the country. By 10% and more. There has been no reduction in the minimum wage so its just the market sorting itself out. The minimum wage is a regulation the market has to deal with. It will find its level.

nesf

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Ireland has been more expensive than the rest of europe long before we had a minimum wage and long before the boom.

Whats a small reduction?? 10%??

It may of escaped your notice but wages are already dropping across the country. By 10% and more. There has been no reduction in the minimum wage so its just the market sorting itself out. The minimum wage is a regulation the market has to deal with. It will find its level.

Indeed, the minimum wage needs to fall by far less than the general wage level thankfully. Something along the lines of a 5-10% drop would be a good first step.

ei.sdraob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

1, Nationalise the banks. This doesnt commit us to valuing assets at a time when the market is still falling. It also doesnt commit us to spending billions on assets we will never see a return for.

2, PS wages need to be cut to reflect private sector equivalent ie benchmarking in reverse.( I dont like this but feel its necesary)

3, Incentives for employment and job creation.

4, The PS needs reform. Redeployment is the key to acheiving value for money.

5,Reduce our foreign aid budget to 0 for the next 3 years.

6,An increased National development programme, building of infrastructure vital to our future as an economy.

These are just some of the proposals I feel will better serve our economy into the future. They will help to reduce the spending and help stimulate the economy.

good now were debating

1. im sort of split on nationalization, i prefer a variation on this:

> open a state bank that only does deposits and current accounts, pay very low interest but in return no fees and guarantee that the money is safe, let people/business transfer their savings + current a/c's if they wish

then let them banks sink in their own mess that they created, get rid of anglo and jail the directors (as a director myself what they did is a disgrace)

2. agree with you there either that or lower to eu average

3. yes but high minimum wages are quite a disincentive for certain industries to create jobs or even retain them, ive seen this firsthand, also ive seen how the likes of enterprise ireland waste an awful lot of companies which were setup by cowboys to milk EA (ive quite alot of stories on these scams ive seen happen!), i am not talking about scrapping minimum wage but a dropping a euro or two of it

4. they tried decentralization ive no faith in them now

5. mixed emotions on this, as our foreign aid gives us a good name abroad, i would rather a every small percentage go to foreign aid where every euro can save a life than to keep payign people who didnt bother getting of the dole even in the best of times

6. yes stopping infrastructure development is daft, but alot waste there, i have a good example of this > fibreoptic laid everywhere but not used, it costs my company 40euro/mbit of bandwidth in ireland compared to 2euro/mbit in usa in rental


as we can see both of us are more or less on same wavelength

but my opinion on minimum wage is different due to experiences in business and seeing how high wages are wrecking the economy

Taxipete29

ei.sdraob wrote: »

good now were debating

1. im sort of split on nationalization, i prefer a variation on this:

> open a state bank that only does deposits and current accounts, pay very low interest but in return no fees and guarantee that the money is safe, let people/business transfer their savings + current a/c's if they wish

then let them banks sink in their own mess that they created, get rid of anglo and jail the directors (as a director myself what they did is a disgrace)

2. agree with you there either that or lower to eu average

3. yes but high minimum wages are quite a disincentive for certain industries to create jobs or even retain them, ive seen this firsthand, also ive seen how the likes of enterprise ireland waste an awful lot of companies which were setup by cowboys to milk EA (ive quite alot of stories on these scams ive seen happen!), i am not talking about scrapping minimum wage but a dropping a euro or two of it

4. they tried decentralization ive no faith in them now

5. mixed emotions on this, as our foreign aid gives us a good name abroad, i would rather a every small percentage go to foreign aid where every euro can save a life than to keep payign people who didnt bother getting of the dole even in the best of times

6. yes stopping infrastructure development is daft, but alot waste there, i have a good example of this > fibreoptic laid everywhere but not used, it costs my company 40euro/mbit of bandwidth in ireland compared to 2euro/mbit in usa in rental


as we can see both of us are more or less on same wavelength

but my opinion on minimum wage is different due to experiences in business and seeing how high wages are wrecking the economy

Much as I would like to see the banks go under and directors jailed, I think it will be too costly an excercise. Remember the state guarantee. We are liable for all their deposits and really would bankrupt the country.

I am not against lower wages. I just think there needs to be a minimum standard.

It might be better if we had standardised minimums for different sectors as they do in many countries in Europe. This may lead to a reduction in some areas where maybe part-time workers are more prevelant ie retail.

I agree about getting people off their assess. I think we need to be tougher with those long-term unemployed who despite the boom failed to get a job.
I just think the foriegn aid money would be better served here for the moment so we can get our own house in order. Charity begins at home.
I am not against it as I believe we have a responsibility to those around the world less fortunate, but if we are bankrupt it would be a long time before they saw money from us again.

waryeye

Before you go tampering with the minimum wage what about addressing the other inequalities which are manifest within our economy? Do some of you people know how hard it is to exist on the minimum wage? Have you ever tried it? No? didn't think so.

What about targetting our cossetted friends in the public service, particularly those who benefitted from benchmarking due to what was perceived as their falling beyond comparable rates in the private sector?

Well people all over the private sector are losing jobes and taking pay cuts of 10 per cent or more, so what about reversing the benchmarking which is now costing the state billions. And not just one year. Every year.

Let the civil service mandarins/politicians start with that before they target those on the minimum wage. And as for cutting social welfare, they can forget that too. There's plenty of scope in Ireland for the wealthy classes to pay more. Leave the poorest alone. That's the moral thing and the right thing to do. End of . . .

astrofool

I've existed on minimum wage and existed on a wage before the min wage came in. Living costs reflect what someone needs to survive. As long as there is a big enough gap between the min wage and the dole, then the min wage will be perfectly fine to live on, even if dropped.

The big problem is the relatively small difference between doing nothing and working 40 hours a week.

ei.sdraob

waryeye wrote: »

Before you go tampering with the minimum wage what about addressing the other inequalities which are manifest within our economy? Do some of you people know how hard it is to exist on the minimum wage? Have you ever tried it? No? didn't think so.

What about targetting our cossetted friends in the public service, particularly those who benefitted from benchmarking due to what was perceived as their falling beyond comparable rates in the private sector?

Well people all over the private sector are losing jobes and taking pay cuts of 10 per cent or more, so what about reversing the benchmarking which is now costing the state billions. And not just one year. Every year.

Let the civil service mandarins/politicians start with that before they target those on the minimum wage. And as for cutting social welfare, they can forget that too. There's plenty of scope in Ireland for the wealthy classes to pay more. Leave the poorest alone. That's the moral thing and the right thing to do. End of . . .

yes i for one was on minimum wage for long time (and it was a lot less back in day) in fact i was on less that on minimum wage since the boss was an ahole and i wasnt there that long initially

cleaning pots, flipping burgers, making sandwiches, dealing with post menopausal customers who were never happy the list goes ...

but you know what it wasnt that hard to live, food was and is still relatively cheap, the only people who had trouble was my friend who was with me and other friend who was on dole who taught its their right to go out every night on town

Spudmonkey

Taxipete29 wrote: »

You lower the minimum wage, do you think enough jobs will be created to lower the welfare bill siginificantly?? No, all that will serve to do is create a new level of working poor.

If the minimum wage is too low to survive on, then the dole is surely far too low? Surely the dole should be increased upwards so that is more inline with the minimum wage? :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

Spudmonkey wrote: »

If the minimum wage is too low to survive on, then the dole is surely far too low? Surely the dole should be increased upwards so that is more inline with the minimum wage? :rolleyes:

what would be the point of working then?

astrofool

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what would be the point of working then?

I think/hope he was being sarcastic.

Spudmonkey

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what would be the point of working then?

None what-so-ever.. Thats not my point though. My point is that no income level seems to be adequate for some people, unless you get to upwards of 50k :rolleyes:

The dole is not adequate for those not working, yet most manage to get by on it.. However you reduce the minimum wage and it would be very difficult to live on?

Edit: Plus many say that they reason they aren't working is because there are no jobs, not the fact they are having it better on the dole.. So its not the financial reward they are after!

Taxipete29

Spudmonkey wrote: »

If the minimum wage is too low to survive on, then the dole is surely far too low? Surely the dole should be increased upwards so that is more inline with the minimum wage? :rolleyes:

The hole in your argument is that while those on the dole recieve €204 they also recieve rent allowance( or in low-cost council housing) medical card and various other benefits.

The minimum wage is fine as it is. I dont really see what your point is??

ei.sdraob

astrofool wrote: »

I think/hope he was being sarcastic.

:P i better brew some coffee, braincells still asleep

Spudmonkey

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The hole in your argument is that while those on the dole recieve €204 they also recieve rent allowance( or in low-cost council housing) medical card and various other benefits.

The minimum wage is fine as it is. I dont really see what your point is??

No hole there at all! I know they get that + medical card + transport... Unless all this amounts to more than the minimum wage (which maybe if you rode the system with transport and that its possible) this might seem a little unfair no? I mean people doing nothing can get more than those working 40 hours? This anyway is going back to the debate on reducing the dole which has already been done, even though they are intrinsically related..

But lets assume that you are better off on the minimum wage than the dole (if only marginally). By reducing the minimum wage to the same level of the dole it suddenly becomes impossible to survive on? This is what several people here were implying..

Forget about dis-incentive this would mean towards working. This already exists for the system as it currently is...

tolosenc

The simple maths of it...

Company A can afford to pay €50 per hour in wages and still make a profit.
The optimum number of people to be employed per hour is 8.

[The above is pretty much the case of where I used to work.]

8*8.65 = 69.2 => This doesn't work, in fact, only 5 people can be employed, with a ~€4 remainder.

Cutting the minimum wage to a fiver per hour would allow optimum employment, and leave a €10 remainder, which, in a competative market, could be passed on to the consumer by way of lower prices.

Obviously, we'd need to slash the dole pay to be equivalent to no more than 20 hours a week at minimum wage, to make life on it sustainable, but not pleasant, so as to incentivise to work.

Anyway, this is about a maximum wage, so back on topic...

It's ridiculous, the only place the government should have any power to dictate wages is in the PS, a sector which already needs to be seriously examined...

Taxipete29

Spudmonkey wrote: »

No hole there at all! I know they get that + medical card + transport... Unless all this amounts to more than the minimum wage (which maybe if you rode the system with transport and that its possible) this might seem a little unfair no? I mean people doing nothing can get more than those working 40 hours? This anyway is going back to the debate on reducing the dole which has already been done, even though they are intrinsically related..

But lets assume that you are better off on the minimum wage than the dole (if only marginally). By reducing the minimum wage to the same level of the dole it suddenly becomes impossible to survive on? This is what several people here were implying..

Forget about dis-incentive this would mean towards working. This already exists for the system as it currently is...

It does become harder to survive on. Some people here are obsessed with sticking it to the lower paid worker. Its a joke.

The wages in this country are falling. The market is reducing them. This is without a reduction in the minimum wage. So whats the problem??

Spudmonkey

Of course it becomes harder to get by if your overall wage goes down but just as a matter of interest I wonder how many people on the minimum wage are students trying to earn a few pounds to pay for drink or even young-uns looking for a bit of pocket money during the summer.

When I was on min wage it didn't really bother me what I earned, I just saved it anyway. I wasn't going to be on the breadline if it was reduced. I don't know if we can really say there are many families trying to survive on a single minimum wage packet.

And it's not about targeting the poorest, in fact in the long run it may help some. It might mean that for a small reduction, an employer may be able to hire some lad on the dole and have two workers as opposed to just one. The lad on the dole earns a bit more and gets some self-esteem back and productivity will go up. What about helping your fellow man?

astrofool

Taxipete29 wrote: »

It does become harder to survive on. Some people here are obsessed with sticking it to the lower paid worker. Its a joke.

The wages in this country are falling. The market is reducing them. This is without a reduction in the minimum wage. So whats the problem??

By lowering the bottom end of the wage structure, you can reduce all wages, it's all relative at the end of the day, we could stick an extra 0 onto the end of all our currency, but no one would be any richer despite earning €86 per hour.

Conversely, lowering the minimum wage may end up giving the lower paid worker more buying power, as it reduces the % tax burden placed upon them, as long as prices drop by the same % (which they have been doing anyway).

It's not "sticking it to the lower paid worker" it's making Ireland competitive again in an international climate where we share a currency with the rest of Europe.

Go to the UK, and the buying power internationally is 33% down on a year ago.