Irish new motorways v. Eastern European motorways!

darkman2

Thought id start a thread to see if we could compare how they are building new motorways in Eastern Europe compared to here.

Ireland has little in common with Western Europe in terms of motorways but has plenty in common with Eastern Europe in that we are building so many atm.

First off here is a new motorway opened in Poland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHc2yzC-NYI

Note the cyclist at 15 secs lol

What do you prefer about this to ours and what do you prefer about ours. I note Poland is going mostly for 4 lanes like us.

And if you want to include the rest of the continent - may aswell:)

Tech3

I was going to say Albania are buliding their motorway network from scratch some stretches are beginning to open now. I dont like the yellow lines on their new roads though.

I really like slovenias motorways but their signage isint great.

darkman2

Yeah the Albanian ones look a bit retro or something

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/baardh_2007/Photo745.jpg

DWCommuter

I wouldnt worry about the cyclist. The road wasn't even open.

DWCommuter

darkman2 wrote: »

Yeah the Albanian ones look a bit retro or something

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/baardh_2007/Photo745.jpg

But their promo videos are cool enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftmv6VcTj4A

Run_to_da_hills

darkman2 wrote: »

Thought id start a thread to see if we could compare how they are building new motorways in Eastern Europe compared to here.

Video looks very much like the AutoBahn when first opened in Germany in the 30ies. Ie very little traffic, I could comment the same on the M8 heading towards Cork the other afternoon

I have to Commend the NRA on their choice using of concrete medians over the use of cable barriers on these new stretches.

Geogregor

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Video looks very much like the AutoBahn when first opened in Germany in the 30ies. Ie very little traffic, I could comment the same on the M8 heading towards Cork the other afternoon

I have to Commend the NRA on their choice using of concrete medians over the use of cable barriers on these new stretches.

That video shows A4 from Krzyzowa to German border, it is about 50km and it is not open yet. So don't worry about cyclists or lack of traffic.
It has concrete surface as it is going to be major trans-european trucking corridor. Open parts of the A4 are full of trucks.
Fortunately this missing link it is due to open soon. Traffic on the current national road DK4 is horrific.

matrim

The video doesn't look much different from a motorway you would see here (except for the road surface)

As for the differences, at least we never did this (although we have made enough mistakes ourselves)
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23380704-details/The+motorway+that%27s+Poles+apart/article.do

Amtmann

I think the motorway shown in the OP is stunning. It's extremely well aligned and the build quality seems to be excellent.

But I don't like the lack of cats' eyes, and the lines are a little too subtle for my liking. German autobahns tend to be the same. Taking the A9 yesterday between Munich and Berlin I encountered several extremely heavy downpowers and visibility was horribly reduced. Lines became very difficult to see. Cats eyes and brighter lines would mitigate that somewhat.

All in all, I think our motorways are excellent. The A70 in Germany is one I've used a lot; it's a very mixed bag. Traffic volumes can be very light on the A70 between certain junctions, and its alignemnt varies a lot too. In places it's very tight with no hard shoulder, and quite bendy. The speed limit in these bad parts (which are much worse than the Athlone Bypass) is 120.

But Irish motorways must be faulted for two things:

1) the lack of parking and service areas

2) the lack of electronic gantries on busier sections to warn of dangers ahead and to advice cautionary speed limits.

Chris_533976

3) Dismal lack of maintenance, requiring a Motorway Maintenance Body.

Also, a dedicated arm of the traffic corp to patrol the motorways (like in the UK) would be useful.

Amtmann

+1 Chris. How did I forget!?

Mint Sauce

matrim wrote: »

The video doesn't look much different from a motorway you would see here (except for the road surface)

As for the differences, at least we never did this (although we have made enough mistakes ourselves)
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23380704-details/The+motorway+that%27s+Poles+apart/article.do

but we did do this, quote from the article

"Poland recently built a new road tunnel under Warsaw - but its roof was too low for lorries."

murphaph

Geogregor wrote: »

That video shows A4 from Krzyzowa to German border, it is about 50km and it is not open yet. So don't worry about cyclists or lack of traffic.
It has concrete surface as it is going to be major trans-european trucking corridor. Open parts of the A4 are full of trucks.
Fortunately this missing link it is due to open soon. Traffic on the current national road DK4 is horrific.

will this connect to the A4 or A15 in Germany?

AugustusMaximus

Guys, always wondered why so many European countries go for a concrete road surface and we don't.

Is it a much better alternative considering our weather / road maintenance.

Amtmann

irish-stew wrote: »

but we did do this, quote from the article

That's a fairly odious article. I wonder how it is facts-wise. Perhaps Geogregor could elaborate. I don't trust writers from dear Little England.

Sponge Bob

England originally built concrete motorways ...eg the M1 and the M6 and then they widened them to 3 lanes and asphalted them in the 1980s when they were 30 years old . They also lowered some of them a bit rather than build new overbridges .

The asphalt was better for surface drainage and reducing spray when heavy traffic and heavy rain co - incided . It is also a bit quieter . That Polish motorway looks very 'rural' to me .

When the Polish motorway in that video is 30 years old they will do the same ( I think ) . Albania won't have as many problems with rain of course .

murphaph

The nearest concrete surfaced motorway to me is the A113, a new build. Not sure why it's cement concrete tbh. Most Autoahns are asphalt (asphalt is also a form of concrete, just not made with portland cement ;-) ).

It's pretty smooth but it's sometimes hard to see the white markings (even with the little black backgrounds they add) and I believe in winter concrete surfaces may be a bit more prone to icy conditions-but i've no facts to back that up and could be wrong-would be interested to hear from someone in the know.

I prefer smooth asphalt anyday to be honest cos I grew up near the Naas Road around Rathcoole and most people in the south of the country will remember that awful thump-thump as the individual sections settled unevenly down the years. God that was an awful bit of road.

Tech3

The new A4 motorway Maribor - Ptuj in Slovenia. The tie in looks like it was around 7:44 with a huge bump, the first sign on the vid is huge and in general their signage isint great. The mainline doesnt start til 1 min into the vid. No catseyes/reflectors either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIgOjAYYlUQ

murphaph

tech2 wrote: »

in general their signage isint great. No catseyes/reflectors either.

The signage looks clear enough to me, and at least the overhead stuff all appears to be illuminated.

The reflectors are built into the continuous armco barrier ;-) They are just hard to see in broad daylight.

marmurr1916

Geogregor wrote: »

That video shows A4 from Krzyzowa to German border, it is about 50km and it is not open yet. So don't worry about cyclists or lack of traffic.
It has concrete surface as it is going to be major trans-european trucking corridor. Open parts of the A4 are full of trucks.
Fortunately this missing link it is due to open soon. Traffic on the current national road DK4 is horrific.

I've travelled on that route from Wroclaw to Dresden. The non-motorway section in Poland was seriously congested, especially at Boleslawiec. Opening this missing link will make a huge difference.

The sections of Polish motorway I travelled on seem to be about on a par with Irish motorways, although there were some very short slip roads leading on to the motorway in places.

I was surprised to see some very small roadside cafes/petrol stations with such short entrance/exit slip roads, almost like over-sized lay-bys with a cafe/petrol station.

Overall, from my limited experience, the roads in Poland (and the Czech Republic) have a similar feel to Irish roads.

Motorways are mostly D2M (two lanes each way), primary roads (equivalent to Ireland's national primary routes) are mainly single-carriageway with reasonably wide traveling lanes and hard shoulders. Secondary roads (equivalent to Ireland's regional roads) are narrower single carriageway, usually without hard shoulders.

The quality of non-motorway road surfaces seemed to be generally higher in the Czech Republic than in Poland (in fact, Czech surfaces were often better then they would have been on equivalent roads in Ireland) especially on secondary and minor roads.

L1011

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I was surprised to see some very small roadside cafes/petrol stations with such short entrance/exit slip roads, almost like over-sized lay-bys with a cafe/petrol station.

They have these in France too, at least on the toll-free autoroutes I've used. And with 130km/h speeds past the tiny slips too!

mackerski

tech2 wrote: »

No catseyes/reflectors either.

Very few European countries use catseyes or other road studs - the UK is the only other one I can think of that does. I have a feeling that snowploughs can do a lot of damage, perhaps that's the reason.

Carawaystick

mackerski wrote: »

Very few European countries use catseyes or other road studs - the UK is the only other one I can think of that does. I have a feeling that snowploughs can do a lot of damage, perhaps that's the reason.

I was told it was Snowploughs but there's no cateyes in Spain either, where snowploughs wouldn't be needed as much....

graduate

Cats-eyes are not used in Canada, or Ontario anyway, and everyone there says that snow ploughs are the reason. Yet drive into New York State and there are cats eyes, and the climate is exactly the same.

Wild Bill

Well, I don't like the concrete surfaces. The motorway in the video seems very straight and frankly boring but that may be related to the landscape. The central supports of the overbridges are not allowed to cause kinks in the mainline as in the pathetic Gorey Bypass or the M8 in sections. The "matchstick" reflector posts are good, as they are in every country on Earth bar Ireland; where they are removed to facilitate grass cutting and reinserted so they totter and lean out of line, some missing, never to be seen again (a uniquely Irish phenomenon). And this really shows the aesthetic of the yellow line on the hard shoulder; enhances carriageway definition. Cat's eyes are good but only if systematically maintained. Which means replacing all of them every two years.

Wild Bill

In the Slovenian video it appears that hard shoulders are optional! Absent in the vicinity of ramps at junctions etc.

asdasd

"Poland recently built a new road tunnel under Warsaw - but its roof was too low for lorries."

Probably little Englander bullsiht. It would, of course, depend on the size of the lorries, and it is hardly likely that they built a tunnel for cars only, and then tried to drive a normal sized trunk through it.

Same nonsense with the Dublin Port tunnel. We dont have to build tunnels to accommodate the biggest moving vehicles in the world every time we build a tunnel. If we handle 99% of the size range of vechicles, and that is cheaper because that is the equipment, then it is a no-brainer.

Also, all tunnels leak.

Geogregor

Furet wrote: »

That's a fairly odious article. I wonder how it is facts-wise. Perhaps Geogregor could elaborate. I don't trust writers from dear Little England.

Do you expect any facts from Evening Standard?

Road mentioned in the article is going to be High Quality Dual Carriageway ( as letter "S" suggests) not a motorway (which in Poland use letter "A"). In Poland unlike in Ireland it is difference, no chance of redesignation. Not a massive difference, just narrower lanes, smaller radius of curves and so on. Still better than old German motorways in my opinion.

Construction of this road started only in small parts, the most important one for me is Wroclaw bypass which is going to be about 30km long. Also western bypass of Warsaw will be part of S8 and is currently under construction.
Other parts of S8 are at different stages. Parts nearest to Wroclaw going east are at the stage of contractor selection. Parts mentioned in the article are at the stage of route selection. Nothing has been decided yet as far as I know, so the article is total bull****.

We do all sort of strange things but missing major roads by 5 km is simply impossible. Even for us.

I hope.

Warsaw built tunnel to low for lorries which it was designed for and it was massive embarrassment for road authority.

Geogregor

murphaph wrote: »

will this connect to the A4 or A15 in Germany?

It will conect Polish A4 to German A4.
Concrete was selected because it lasts longer especially under the heavy lorries traffic which is expected in this transport corridor.
You should note that lorries traffic in Poland is much bigger than in Ireland because we are transit country.
In Ireland you just have mostly local deliveries or tranport originating in or going to Ireland.
We have to handle the huge east-west transit and big (but smaller) nort-south transit as well.

spacetweek

irish-stew wrote: »

but we did do this, quote from the article

Wow, I can't believe there are still people that believe this.

At no stage in the design or construction of the Port Tunnel was a mistake made about its height. Contrary to what you may have heard in the press.

Victor

darkman2 wrote: »

Note the cyclist at 15 secs lol

At 40 seconds? I don't think the road is open yet.

Its quite "boring" compared to Irish motorways, with fewer bridges, most of which are underbridges and being in a big forest removed a lot of the potential scenery. In a way this is good - they don't suffer from the "one for everyone in the audience" problem.

I'm surprised they cut down so many trees on the right hand side.

What is the harsh green material they use on the curved(?) sections of median?

Wild Bill

One what for everyone in the audience???

Geogregor

Victor wrote: »

What is the harsh green material they use on the curved(?) sections of median?

Do you mean these plastic green "leafs" on top of the central steel barrier?

They are there to protect you from headlights of the traffic going in opposite direction.

This motorway is boring because it goes through massive forests (much bigger in term of the area than anything in Ireland).
Personally I like motorways in forest. Feels somehow protected, hidden.

Victor

Wild Bill wrote: »

One what for everyone in the audience???

Bridge and/or interchange.

Geogregor

Time to refresh this thread
A4 to German border opened recently:
Part 1
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=41367554&postcount=4849
Part 2
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=41367574&postcount=4850

And here A1 under construction, close to my hometown:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=42139604&postcount=4653

More about A1 construction including A1/A4/DK(National Road)44 junction:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=542716&page=185

asdasd

Ah, the A1. First ever motorway. ****e near Hamburg..

Wild Bill

So many motorway threads I don't know which one to pick! But lookie here:

http://www.nra.ie/mapping/index.jsp

The M3 is now an "inter-urban". Last time I looked it wasn't. What is afoot?

In fact, it appears to be the sixth member of a group of five. Spooky, eh?

And...the M3 website, http://www.eurolink-m3.ie/ has a "NEW!!! Newsletter, hot of the presses a mere six months ago.

Victor

Moved to Infrastructure.

spacetweek

Victor wrote: »

Bridge and/or interchange.

Are you saying that in Ireland we do build one for everyone in the audience? Not sure I'd agree with that. Long distances between interchanges most of the time.

Chris_5339762

Geogregor wrote: »

Time to refresh this thread
A4 to German border opened recently:
Part 1
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=41367554&postcount=4849
Part 2
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=41367574&postcount=4850

And here A1 under construction, close to my hometown:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=42139604&postcount=4653

More about A1 construction including A1/A4/DK(National Road)44 junction:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=542716&page=185

Oh look an MSA. Funny how European countries think these things are necessary while we have made an absolute bags of their rollout and have currently ****canned all but two of them.

Wild Bill

Judging by the way the lay-by's on the M6 between Kinnegad and Athlone are "managed" I'd say the problem is the Local Authorities couldn't be trusted to clear the litter on a daily basis. (They hardly do it monthly at the moment). So the areas would quickly resemble mini-tips. :mad:

MilanPan!c

Chris_533976 wrote: »

3) Dismal lack of maintenance, requiring a Motorway Maintenance Body.

Also, a dedicated arm of the traffic corp to patrol the motorways (like in the UK) would be useful.

As someone used to US motorways, the lack of law enforcement on motorways is mind boggling.

Why bother posting speed limits????

I've done the Dublin to Cork trip many times over the last 5 years and, while all the motorways make it a LOT more pleasant and infinitely faster, they also remove almost all policing from the journey.
I have personally seem two fatal collisions on that motorway in the last year.

Both caused by speed.

Just seems to me that if you're gonna build motorways you need to out cops on them.

Wild Bill

Last thing we need is cops on the m-ways! They should spend their time on the local and regional roads where 99% of the fatalities occur.

sdanseo

Or we could have cops on both. Sensible much?

spacetweek

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Oh look an MSA. Funny how European countries think these things are necessary while we have made an absolute bags of their rollout and have currently ****canned all but two of them.

Do you ever have anything positive to contribute?

Before posting in future, can you calm the f*** down first?