Are you in a Union

7mountpleasant

A lot of talk on this forum about Unions , personally having worked in a unionised workplace and a non unionised workplace I am defintiely not in favour and made a conscious descision never to be in one, I would however be interest to see if people in unions feel they are worthwile and whether they reckon there subs are worth it, please don't let this thread develop into either union bashing or the Arthur Scargill appreciation society, just genuinely interested to see what people think.

doolox

I have worked in Non unionised places all my life and come from a family background with a strong independent streak, my father being a self employed most of his working life.
I cannot understand how the likes of the Electricians got a 4.5% award on top of earnings of €21 per hour, while electronics technicians would be lucky to get €15 per hour.
I recently did a course in industrial automation and was working alongside fully qualified electricians many of who can't get jobs at even half the rate because all the contractors are broke and yet the existing ones are looking for €23 ph in the middle of a recession........Their work and the course content was no more complicated or onerous than a typical electronics or computer course but you won't see a computer or electronic tech on €23 ph because of international competition and the non-union nature of most technology employment.

Same could be said of the Consultants on €250,000 pa in the midst of a financial crisis in the Health Services. While there is a place for unions in the labour market place there should be a structure in place to allow for the retention of as many jobs as possible in each sector and the disruptive power of the strike weapon should be kept to a minimum.

population

As a general rule I support the concept of unions, but Irish unions are a basketcase. Have always had the opportunity to join the TEEU, but anytime I spoke to one of their reps I just got the sense that they were only interested in furthering their own individual means rather than representing their members.

Mulan

I'm in a union (Siptu). The company I work for are trying to change terms and conditions of employment in return for paying the 2.5% aggreed in the national wage aggreement/partnership.
Its like "We'll give you what your intitled to but you must agree to x,y and z. or even I'll give you a extra 10 euro a week that your intitled to and I'm then going to take 80 euro a week off you.

If ever there was a need for a strong union.
Good or bad, it can't be all oneway.

ei.sdraob

I was once upon a time,

but it kinda felt dirty as I was getting paid more than the non union or other union employees of this big irish company

tho i did not complain at the time as the pay wasn't exactly stellar to begin with, living week to week

Mulan wrote: »

I'm in a union (Siptu). The company I work for are trying to change terms and conditions of employment in return for paying the 2.5% aggreed in the national wage aggreement/partnership.
Its like "We'll give you what your intitled to but you must agree to x,y and z. or even I'll give you a extra 10 euro a week that your intitled to and I'm then going to take 80 euro a week off you.

If ever there was a need for a strong union.
Good or bad, it can't be all oneway.

you know if this said company closes doors one day, you might wish you took that 10 euro

just saying... companies exist to make profit something trade unions and some employees fail to grasp ...

eamonnm79

doolox wrote: »

I cannot understand how the likes of the Electricians got a 4.5% award on top of earnings of €21 per hour, while electronics technicians would be lucky to get €15 per hour.

Duh!:P Cos they have well organised collective bargaining power and the technicians dont

ejmaztec

Unions were a real necessity decades ago, but they've become more and more unrealistic over the last 50 years at least.

I've never been in a union (except for the N.U.S. in the UK), as my job has never been unionised. My father was a lifelong union man in the UK, and even he became completely pissed of with the destructive way that they carried on. I can safely say (although some people might argue) that the unions completely destroyed the auto-manufacturing industry in the UK, by putting obstacles in the way of allowing the industry to compete with foreign manufacturers.

In Ireland, I think that the unions are going to delay any recovery by not owning up to the fact that there are many people working in the public sector that are surplus to requirements. They'll fight tooth and nail to keep all of their members employed, and won't believe for a second that the money's run out.

They also seem to back their members even when that member doesn't deserve to be backed. A cousin of mine was a sub for many years, and thanks the teachers' union(s), she couldn't get a permanent position. The teacher for whom she was subbing was a chronic alcoholic who had been on sick leave for years, and the education authority just couldn't get shot of him.

Gumbo

im a public service worker and not in a union. although i am member of Engineers Ireland, does that count
spent 10 years in the private sector before hand without being in a union either, so dont really know what the benefits or drawbacks are.

ParkRunner

I'm in a public sector union and at the moment they have little or no influence over what happens. Paycuts are happening unilaterally and there is a big increase in the workload as the over 50's retire. We had our walk down O'Connell St back in February on a Saturday but achieved nothing.

ceret

I'm a bit of an anarchist and thing that strong unions are just as bad as strong managment.

Right now, I work in IT / programming / sysadmins where there are no unions. In this industry, however it's quite common for people to change jobs a lot (my longest job was 18 months) and there's always a high demand. So if I have a problem with the way a company acts, I just change job.

gamblor1975

Hi all,

Worked in an engineering company years ago which was unionised and although I didn't join (It was for the trades guys - or so I thought at the time) I never really had any issues with them as they never really caused trouble for anyone.
I'm Working for a large US multinational now with no union and have to say, things seem to work better here. Wages are higher so that the staff are more flexible and willing to change work practices on a regular basis. This company could not operate if there were a Union here.

I think the unions are important because there are still some employers out there taking the piss. The only objection I would have is when they try to be more than local representatives for their members. These are not elected officials representing the irish people. The Govt. good or bad have that job. I don't believe any unelected group should have the power to bring the country to its knees over a pay claim for their members.

I believe there are good reasons for keeping unions but I do think they have far too much power. Also going on what I've heard recently, none of the unions want to be flexible with regard to cuts. Its all very NIMBY with no suggestions to fix the problems we are having.

I believe they need to be reformed - from the outside!

eamonnm79

"I don't believe any unelected group should have the power to bring the country to its knees over a pay claim for their members."

Conversly that means that only politicians should have the power to bring the country to its knees over a pay claim?

BTW in unions, they do elect their representatives.

gamblor1975

Elected by who? The population of Ireland or the members who have their own interests which in this case may run contrary to the the rest of the country?

moot

I know of two middle managers who have come up through the ranks and retained their union membership. The reason is that they view it as a cheap form of legal insurance, just in case they ever need representation in a HR dispute.

Slightly off topic, I've worked in various unionised workplaces for the last 14 years. One thing I've always been suspicious of is the motivation of people who put themselves forward as shop stewards. I suspect they have a need for power and control and satisfy this need via the shoppie's job.

P. Breathnach

moot wrote: »

... One thing I've always been suspicious of is the motivation of people who put themselves forward as shop stewards. I suspect they have a need for power and control and satisfy this need via the shoppie's job.

I was a union member right through my working life (different unions, as my career evolved), and filled various offices union at national, branch, and workplace level. I would like to think that I didn't have such a motivation. But yes, I have to agree that one should consider what people want when they put themselves forward for election, and what they want isn't always what the members want from them.

But it's the same with almost any organisation I was ever a member of, or the operation of which I could observe. The world is full of ego-trippers, and some cannot see any type of election without wanting to be a candidate.

stepbar

I'm in a union and well TBH I'll be cancelling it fairly soon. They do nothing for me and never have for folk like me (grads). I might as well be p1ssing 20 eur a month up against the wall.

7mountpleasant

My biggest problem with unions is that in Ireland the members are usually pretty sane fair minded people but the heads of our unions (begg and that b@llox o'connor) seem to be of the Arthur Scargill mode.

P. Breathnach

7mountpleasant wrote: »

My biggest problem with unions is that in Ireland the members are usually pretty sane fair minded people but the heads of our unions (begg and that b@llox o'connor) seem to be of the Arthur Scargill mode.

I disagree strongly with that. Much of what goes wrong in the union movement comes from lower than that General Secretary or President level. The "leaders" have a tightrope to walk every day: they are the servants of the members, and are supposed to advance the members' agenda. Yet, with their experience and abilities, they usually understand better than most people what is reasonable and achievable.

If you are truly interested in how trade unions operate, you should pay very close attention to what people like Begg and O'Connor actually say: it is usually very skilfully nuanced so as to build a bridge between the unreasonable and the reasonable, and it is done so as to bring unreasonable people over to the reasonable side. If they simply told their members that they were being unreasonable, they would fail.

irish_bob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I disagree strongly with that. Much of what goes wrong in the union movement comes from lower than that General Secretary or President level. The "leaders" have a tightrope to walk every day: they are the servants of the members, and are supposed to advance the members' agenda. Yet, with their experience and abilities, they usually understand better than most people what is reasonable and achievable.

If you are truly interested in how trade unions operate, you should pay very close attention to what people like Begg and O'Connor actually say: it is usually very skilfully nuanced so as to build a bridge between the unreasonable and the reasonable, and it is done so as to bring unreasonable people over to the reasonable side. If they simply told their members that they were being unreasonable, they would fail.

begg , nuanced , perhaps , o,connor , never

7mountpleasant

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I disagree strongly with that. Much of what goes wrong in the union movement comes from lower than that General Secretary or President level. The "leaders" have a tightrope to walk every day: they are the servants of the members, and are supposed to advance the members' agenda. Yet, with their experience and abilities, they usually understand better than most people what is reasonable and achievable.

If you are truly interested in how trade unions operate, you should pay very close attention to what people like Begg and O'Connor actually say: it is usually very skilfully nuanced so as to build a bridge between the unreasonable and the reasonable, and it is done so as to bring unreasonable people over to the reasonable side. If they simply told their members that they were being unreasonable, they would fail.

Don't find anything nuanced about O'Connor calling for an all out strike if the electricians didn't get their ridiculous 11.4% pay hike (clearly demonstrating a firm grasp of what is 'reasonable and achievable' and really helped to build a bridge between the reasonable and the unreasonable', or beggs statement last year to use national pension reserve fund to increase public spending,

deise blue

7mountpleasant wrote: »

Don't find anything nuanced about O'Connor calling for an all out strike if the electricians didn't get their ridiculous 11.4% pay hike (clearly demonstrating a firm grasp of what is 'reasonable and achievable' and really helped to build a bridge between the reasonable and the unreasonable', or beggs statement last year to use national pension reserve fund to increase public spending,

The Contractor bodies , the AECI and the ECI were looking for a paycut of 10% and the TEEU were looking for a pay increase of 11.4% as an opening gambit - neither body expected to achieve what they were looking for.
The reasonable solution brokered by all parties at the LRC was an increase of 4.9% which was then rubber stamped by the Labour Court.
Denis Judge who represents the non alligned contractors also said on morning Ireland that they would have no difficulty paying that increase.
I appreciate that there is some way to go before this dispute is settled as the ECI members have voted against the increase brokered by their representatives however in excess of 5000 electricians employed by contractors represented by the AECI will receive the increase in September next.
Given the above I think the TEEU have been reasonable in their compromises.

P. Breathnach

7mountpleasant wrote: »

Don't find anything nuanced about O'Connor calling for an all out strike if the electricians didn't get their ridiculous 11.4% pay hike (clearly demonstrating a firm grasp of what is 'reasonable and achievable' and really helped to build a bridge between the reasonable and the unreasonable', or beggs statement last year to use national pension reserve fund to increase public spending,

How to Lead a Mob:
- Observe their behaviour, try to gauge what they want.
- Applaud those who shout slogans, but do not use words that might come back to embarrass you.
- If an attack on the enemy is proposed, do not say "I think that's a bad idea; let's sit down and talk about it".
- When the surge starts, yell meaningless slogans, push hard and get to the front, then call "Come on lads, follow me".
- Then you have options: (a) change direction, judging carefully how much you can do so without losing contact with your followers; (b) go right up to the enemy, but rather than attack call their leader out to parley; (c) engage the enemy, but control the engagement so that it is a skirmish rather than a fight to the death.

rumour

All of what you say may be true, however at this point in time, Unions stating/suggesting that they have solutions to the economy when infact they are employing your techniques seems counterproductive to our current economic problems. Who is the enemy?

Regarding nuances Begg was on television in January stating that government figures were wrong according to him the economy would grow this year. I have no faith in his ability to adopt subtle nuances. He is either completely out of touch or deliberately trying to mislead his members and the rest of the country. As a leader he has a responsibility to tell the truth in these difficult times.

Such is the seriousness of the situation only a complete imbecile could not recognise that.