The devils advocate thread.

rccaulfield

Maybe it might be interesting to play devils advocate with ourselves and ask ourselves the awkward questions maybe we havent been asked or havent thought of yet?
A devoted religious person most likely wouldn't question the universes origins or similar topics as much as an evidence seeker might(why would they, they already know), so perhaps we could pose more problematic questions to each other then they can!?
One topic at a time please!
There's alot of topics but i suppose a general one to start with might be- What instigated the big bang( God?) -Where did this mass of energy come from- I thought energy cannot be CREATED or destroyed?

drkpower

rccaulfield wrote: »

Maybe it might be interesting to play devils advocate with ourselves and ask ourselves the awkward questions maybe we havent been asked or havent thought of yet?
A devoted religious person most likely wouldn't question the universes origins or similar topics as much as an evidence seeker might(why would they, they already know), so perhaps we could pose more problematic questions to each other then they can!?

Without wanting to take this thread off-topic at the outset, isnt the sugestion that atheists are more likely to be able to question atheistic beliefs better than a religous person a teeny weeny bit arrogant..!?:eek:

Stercus Accidit

Q. How did the big bang happen?

A. I don't know.


There's the Atheist's answer, beats magic or super man dontcha think.

rccaulfield

drkpower wrote: »

Without wanting to take this thread off-topic at the outset, isnt the sugestion that atheists are more likely to be able to question atheistic beliefs better than a religous person a teeny weeny bit arrogant..!?:eek:

Didnt mean to come across that way mate- i meant if i believed in something as fact-i wouldnt devote any length of time to the alternatives whereas evidence seekers undoubtedly would!;)

pH

rccaulfield wrote: »

Where did this mass of energy come from- I thought energy cannot be CREATED or destroyed?

It seems reasonable then that *nothing* was created, if you add up all the energy and mass in the universe the total is most likely Zero.

Zillah

Honestly? After spending years having a veritable procession of missionaries come through here trying everything under the sun to win converts, I can honestly say that there are no difficult questions you can ask me as an atheist.

I will always have either a very good answer, or be able to state with confidence that we don't know the answer.

WeeBushy

Nobody knows the answer to that question, and quite probably never will. At least I'm man enough to admit my ignorance in this matter instead of accrediting to a "higher being".
There's not not a shred of evidence to support the theory that it was a god, so therefore it's as ridiculous a claim as me stating "I did, I created the universe". It's just as likely that it was me than it was you, or god, or allah, or any other idea you wish to make up.
So I'm afraid OP, this thread can't go very far seeing as nobody knows the answer.

Feel free to put forward another question though!

Zillah

WeeBushy wrote: »

Nobody knows the answer to that question, and quite probably never will. At least I'm man enough to admit my ignorance in this matter instead of accrediting to a "higher being".
There's not not a shred of evidence to support the theory that it was a god, so therefore it's as ridiculous a claim as me stating "I did, I created the universe". It's just as likely that it was me than it was you, or god, or allah, or any other idea you wish to make up.
So I'm afraid OP, this thread can't go very far seeing as nobody knows the answer.

Feel free to put forward another question though!

Actually it's more likely you do it, at least we know you exist.

WeeBushy

Zillah wrote: »

Actually it's more likely you do it, at least we know you exist.

Do you?

Zillah

Right now I both do and do not exist, but as soon as you read this post my wave function will collapse and resolve into existence. Quite trippy.

Overblood

Why do bananas fit so perfectly into a human hand?

togster

rccaulfield wrote: »

What instigated the big bang( God?) -Where did this mass of energy come from- I thought energy cannot be CREATED or destroyed?

The big bang is conception, similar to mine or your own conception. Next followed expansion and fragmentation in the finite plane, similar to our life.

Death is contaction and re-absorbtion.

Conception is the big bang.
Expansion is proliferation.
Contraction is death.
The infinite is neither expansion or contraction.

I think our lives are both scaled up and down versions of the universe(s). We are constantly in flux (expanding and contracting) within the expansion of the universe trying to find the infinite/balance between the two.

To ask what or who caused all this is pointless (i think). True understanding will only come about when we understand it within the infintite (outside of time) And science plus this understanding will unlock the key (i think). Both will need to complement each other.

rccaulfield

WeeBushy wrote: »

Nobody knows the answer to that question, and quite probably never will. At least I'm man enough to admit my ignorance in this matter instead of accrediting to a "higher being".

Feel free to put forward another question though!

Yea i suppose its beyond us at the moment to think of what was before the beginning or similar concepts-same as pac man not being able to imagine an up or down dimension in 2d!
Well Anyone can throw up a question -doesnt have to be me!;)

rccaulfield

Overblood wrote: »

Why do bananas fit so perfectly ito a human hand?

My best guess would be that-over a very long period of time- bananas that were the easiest to eat according to shape were eaten by our ancestors, rather then the difficult ones to grasp which were not eaten and therefore the seed wasnt spread for the next generation of that mutation of banana shape!
Perhaps in addition,our pre-opposable thumb ancestors grasp was quite clumsy and so only the mutation of banana that was easy to grasp survived by natural selection!
Only thing is -i'm not an expert on how the banana tree spreads its seed -bananasit dont have pips like oranges etc!-so open to correction on all this!:D

Zillah

togster wrote: »

Death is contaction and re-absorbtion.

The universe isn't going to contract, it turns out it's actually getting faster.

I think our lives are both scaled up and down versions of the universe(s).

Think better.

togster

Zillah wrote: »

Think better.

You totally missed everything and came to the conclusion i knew you would.

JC 2K3

How did you come to the conclusion in the first place?

togster

JC 2K3 wrote: »

How did you come to the conclusion in the first place?

It's not a conclusion.

JC 2K3

How'd you come up with the idea then?

togster

JC 2K3 wrote: »

How'd you come up with the idea then?

It came to me :pac:

Zillah

togster wrote: »

You totally missed everything and came to the conclusion i knew you would.

I like you, your posts are mysterious. Makes for a nice departure from all the reasonable discussion we're used to around here.

Goduznt Xzst

Zillah wrote: »

Think better.

I think what Togster is trying to say, in a round-about metaphysical manner is that none of us can escape entropy. Neither the stars, the planets or even this Universe (probably) is infinite.

Why this is a point of relevance I however don't know. It reminds me of the guff myself and others used to come out with in "mind expanding" sessions..."we're all made of stardust man... think about it... just.. just... woah!!! We're not in the Universe... we ARE the Universe"

togster

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Why this is a point of relevance I however don't know.

It is of relevance because the OP asked what caused it all. Perhaps there was no cause, or creator, just infinity.

JC 2K3

Has it not been proven that the universe began, or at least "began" at one point? Or is this just a Christian misinterpretation?

The idea that the universe is one big wave that expands and contracts is something I've thought about before, and an idea I quite like, but I couldn't assert that it's true, because in reality I haven't a fcuking clue.

togster

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Has it not been proven that the universe began, or at least "began" at one point? Or is this just a Christian misinterpretation?

I don't think it's a christian misinterpretatation. I think when we became aware of "time" the awareness of infinity was lost. If you remove "time" there is no beginning and end. So the universe did not "begin", it just is. The big bang did not happen, it is happening all the time, everywhere. Conception.

The expansion is expressed in terms of time and that is what is physical.

stevejazzx

Overblood wrote: »

Why do bananas fit so perfectly ito a human hand?

The same reason why I need a hammer to open a coconut.

Goduznt Xzst

JC 2K3 wrote: »

The idea that the universe is one big wave that expands and contracts is something I've thought about before, and an idea I quite like, but I couldn't assert that it's true, because in reality I haven't a fcuking clue.

You're thinking of the big bounce hypothesis

rccaulfield

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You're thinking of the big bounce hypothesis

Thats just as likely to be true as the 'we are the first ever universe' theory, which now that i think of it is a bit arrogant of us! However its a theory with no evidence or even any conceivable evidence forthcoming in the future-in the end it still leads back to the problem that if we are the 1004th universe-whats the story with the first one? Or are numbers a human construction similar to time?

rccaulfield

rccaulfield wrote: »

Or are numbers a human construction similar to time?

Numbers aren't a human construction. Our representations of a number are, but the numbers themselves -- whatever they are -- aren't.

dvpower

Overblood wrote: »

Why do bananas fit so perfectly ito a human hand?

(Godless) EU regulations.

Stercus Accidit

rccaulfield wrote: »

Thats just as likely to be true as the 'we are the first ever universe' theory, which now that i think of it is a bit arrogant of us! However its a theory with no evidence or even any conceivable evidence forthcoming in the future-in the end it still leads back to the problem that if we are the 1004th universe-whats the story with the first one? Or are numbers a human construction similar to time?

Do you consider the infinite universe theory to be more humble?