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Petition against ivf meds cutbacks on dps card
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It is clear that the spending of money on infertility treatment is a very emotive issue in Ireland. In other countries (UK etc.,.) it is accepted but not here yet. Catholic hangover? I don't know, maybe we attribute too much to that already.
Ireland is undoubtably going through a tough economic crisis. We've taken the pay-cuts, NAMA, talk of belt-tightening, cascading property prices, talk of cutting minimum wage with great ease and no change of government.
Allocation of public funding is a fascinating subject and open to an endless amount of differing opinions. Truth is nobody globally has got that 100% right yet.
However what is also clear is that Ireland has already slashed support for infertile couples by 50% (40% tax rebate slashed to 20%) so those among us going for such treatments have tightened our belts in many ways, including this, in order to help project Ireland along already.
I say we've contributed enough, the HSE's argument about OHSS is subterfuge and misdirection (smoke and mirrors). We're the latest soft target.
Likelihood is that this cutback will go through. But agree with it? I do not. Fight it? I will.
Sound like Yoda I do.0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »Again, this is not a question of saving lives versus treating infertility and you are wrong to continuously polarise the argument in this way. The argument you are making could be used to justify spending cuts in any area of the economy. Sure what could be more important than saving lives ! The reality is that running a country and an economy requires more than just saving lives. Do you honestly believe that 1 person will survive that otherwise might not have because the government are restricting funding to IVF patients.
With all due respect- we are in a situation of having to allocate increasingly scarce resources. You state that it is not a question of saving lives versus treating infertility. Other DPS and LTI medication is directly saving lives (think of diabetics with insulin (LTI), crohn's disease with B12 injections and humira (DPS) etc). If you look at the larger health budget- 15k will buy 10 defibrilators and train 30 people in their use....... However, thankfully neither you nor I are tasked with playing god in resource allocation. We are reaching the situation where we do actually have to make these decisions- it simply is blinkered to suggest that funding one particular area does not necessarily impact on another. As a whole- IVF medication on the DPS scheme is a very minor component. It might however represent whether a local sports club gets a defibrilator and training on how to use it or not. I know I am using an extreme example- it is however relevant (and I am a trained Paramedic who does notice something like this in particular).hallelujajordan wrote: »Where does one draw the line between quality of life and chronic medical conditions. . I suffer from chronic allergic rhinitis. I take a regular steroid spray and expensive antihistamines . . Occasionally I have to take antibiotics and I usually hit my E100 limit each month. . My condition will never threaten my life but it can be severely debilitating. . In your new economy would I be eligible for the DPS. . btw, I also contribute somewhere in the region of 50,000 Euro into the economy in taxes every year.
It is a good question- where do you draw the line? For a diabetic- it might be whether you get your insulin and the correct type of insulin, or not. It also represents Glucagen for a First Aider, medication to keep seizures at bay for a epileptic etc. These are obvious examples of where failure to take medication can result in death. Similarly- some medications which are dispensed as quality of life drugs on the DPS to some people (such as Cytamen) if not given to other patients could result in a slow and painful death (progresive degeneration of the nervous system). That some people use it as a 'pep me up' and are actively prescribed it by GPs- should not mean it not be available to those for whom its a necessity (the lack of which will kill them).
I too suffer chronic allergies- like you. Unlike you- my symptoms include a swelling of the eyeballs and internal organs- and an inability to absorb iron. I similar to you pay a startling amount in taxes annually (only a small portion of my tax bill is related to my daytime PAYE job). Are we suggesting though that we quantify a person's contribution towards the exchequer and use this as a balance against which the costs of medication are offset?
In your case if your condition were severe to the extent that your contribution as a taxpayer were lost- because you took time off work and didn't contribute as you are doing- it would be detrimental to society as a whole. This is a very dangerous road to go down though- and would be highly divisive- by placing a nominal value of differing nature on different classes of people. Would you be dispensed steroids and antihistamine- and a medical card patient not? I would argue first and foremost that there should not be any differentation whatsoever in rights or entitlements between the different schemes- and the current difference should be tackled immediately. You and I differ insofar as you think the entitlements afforded to medical card patients should also be afforded to DPS patients. I would argue that it makes no sense whatsoever to allow it to the medical card patients- and should be rescinded at the earliest possible opportunity- not rolled out to the DPS scheme.
By the way- I too pay my EUR100 a month- and I am certain my regular medication that I need comes to a multiple of this contribution.hallelujajordan wrote: »I really really do not agree with the third world picture that you are painting of Irelands economy. We, like much of the rest of the world are going through a recession and like the rest of the world we will come out of recession and the economy will begin to grow again. . . It will take some time, it will require us to contribute more in taxes and spend less on public services but it will not lead to the life or death scenario you describe.
I am not painting a 3rd world picture of Ireland's economy- I am simply stating facts. Ireland is almost unique globally in the manner in which our economy has collapsed. We are borrowing between 24 and 26 billion this year, our unemployment levels are already at a 41 year high (and increasing on a daily basis), our financial sector is on lifesupport from the exchequer- the guarantee of the banking sector is costing the exchequer 2% over that charged to other ECB countries- and with NAMA we will be borrowing another 60-70 billion........
Certainly the taxpayer should not be bailing out the financial and property sector as it is doing- but short of civil disobendience and mass unrest- its going to go through. What has not been addressed is the manner in which current expenditure is being funded by borrowings. We have been given a 3 year window by the EU Commission to rectify this. The 2009 budget was seen as a wasted opportunity to make cutbacks (though it was startling how it managed to increase stealth taxation without it hitting the public consciousness).
Ireland is in severe financial difficulty. The extent of these difficulties have not been communicated to the public. Every lobby group fighting its corner in the expectation of further largess from the exchequer is a recipe for disaster. We have not made the hard choices that need to be made. There is uproar over the proposals in the McCarthy report- yet it only addresses 4.6 billion of savings. We have a deficit of 24 billion (and are borrowing almost 26 billion). This year ~17% of our tax take is going towards sevicing our debt, current projections show ~25% of our tax take servicing debt by 2011- and 28% by 2012. These are actually conservative measures. I am not suggesting Ireland is a 3rd world country- I am stating that we are living beyond our means- and that someone has to say stop. Another 2 government TDs resigned their whips this evening- rather than accept proposals to merge cancer services from Sligo General with University Hospital Galway. The government has not fallen- no, but it most certainly is coming apart at the seams.......0 -
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Rainbowrapids wrote: »It is clear that the spending of money on infertility treatment is a very emotive issue in Ireland. In other countries (UK etc.,.) it is accepted but not here yet. Catholic hangover? I don't know, maybe we attribute too much to that already.
Its not infertility treatment per-se that is an issue- its expenditure of limited funds on a variety of treatments and services which might not be considered critical in nature- all the while critical services are being allowed run into the ground. Personally I have far more problems accepting the HSE funding viagra for erectile dysfunction- than I do the medication associated with infertility treatment. In only one year since 2001 has the HSE actually managed to keep to its budget- every other year the Department of Finance voted through 'supplementary funds' so they weren't short at years end. This time round the kitty is bare. Yes- the HSE is inept and should have been disbanded years ago- perhaps the current crisis in its budget might percipitate the discussion that is needed? Fertility treatment is accepted in the UK on the NHS (not just the medication aspect of the treatment). In an Irish context it is not so much a lack of acceptance of fertility treatment- more so an acceptance of appalling mismanagement of the country as a whole- and the HSE in general- which is far and away the largest employer in the country. The Irish public have accepted ineptitude on a grand scale- and yet no-one utters a peep. That is the remarkable aspect of the Irish public- in my mind.Rainbowrapids wrote: »Ireland is undoubtably going through a tough economic crisis. We've taken the pay-cuts, NAMA, talk of belt-tightening, cascading property prices, talk of cutting minimum wage with great ease and no change of government.
At the risk of sounding cynical- we have a culture of acceptance- of whatever is dished out to us. Call it a persecution complex almost. People will tell you we deserve what we've got. Why? We have accepted all the things you've listed- without stringing up any government members. Why vote the current clowns out though- do we really believe there is a viable alternate? If there is- why haven't they had the guts to make a case to the Irish electorate? Certainly there is a lack of leadership from the government- however no-one else has indicated they are in a position to exercise the leadership we need.Rainbowrapids wrote: »Allocation of public funding is a fascinating subject and open to an endless amount of differing opinions. Truth is nobody globally has got that 100% right yet.
Correct.
In an Irish context- we seem to have made far more decisions or exercises of bad judgement than most though. We might point fingers at Iceland- and say- well, we're not there at least. You know the joke in Brussels? Whats the difference between Ireland and Iceland? One letter and six months...... At least they can devalue their way out of their mess- we can't, and we're stuck in a wholly unsuitable economic climate dictated by the ECB, yet again.......Rainbowrapids wrote: »However what is also clear is that Ireland has already slashed support for infertile couples by 50% (40% tax rebate slashed to 20%) so those among us going for such treatments have tightened our belts in many ways, including this, in order to help project Ireland along already.
Ireland has slashed support for infertile couples- yes, and for everyone else who is expected to pay for their own healthcare in a self same manner. The cut in tax relief allowed cost me over 6k in 2008. While I accept that this thread is discussing IVF meds- to use the cut in tax rate as an argument is only valid if it targetted this course of treatment in particular. It didn't.Rainbowrapids wrote: »I say we've contributed enough, the HSE's argument about OHSS is subterfuge and misdirection (smoke and mirrors). We're the latest soft target.
Likelihood is that this cutback will go through. But agree with it? I do not. Fight it? I will.
Sound like Yoda I do.
I agree with you. The HSE's argument does indeed sound like smoke and mirrors. There is not a one size fits all solution that is going to cater to every contingency. Their solution is arbitrary in nature- and unfair because there is not a similar restriction placed on other patients- purely on the basis of their status as medical card patients. In all liklihood the cut will go through- but it is ridiculous to push it in the absence of a similar approach being taken to all patients.0 -
This is a very interesting debate, and if it wasn't one so personal to me, I'd dare say I'd be enjoying it!
SMcCarrick - I respect your opinion, and you make your points well. I'm sure it isn't surprising that I don't agree with all points raised (e.g. the fact that IVF patients are being singled out in terms of the DPS does make the tax cut to this treatment pertinent IMHO). But sure it wouldn't be as interesting if everyone agreed on every single point.
Look, the reason I feel so strongly is that this arbitrary policy decision we're discussing could result in ending my attempts to have a family. We've been trying for years, met when we were teenagers, discovered that it is statistically improbable we will conceive without this treatment despite the fact that we're relatively speaking quite young.
It's a bitter blow and we're not massively loaded, are spending our life savings on it as it stands, hoping that we'll get lucky within 3 goes, but mindful that this isn't always the case. Having been through it once I'm pretty confident that IVF is something people only undertake if they absolutely have to. And while I know that having a family is a blessing not a right, I'm a firm believer in fighting a brave fight for something that is important to you.
I'm also a firm believer in supporting the vulnerable in society having always been in the privileged position of not being the vulnerable in society until about a year ago.
A lot of posters don't see infertility as a priority for support under the current fiscal crisis. Fair enough. Even in our situation I don't see it as the top priority, but I do know that it means the difference between having a family for a small number of people (including myself) out there. We don't have many supports available to us, the DPS is the one thing we have and it is probably going to be taken away.
There are plenty of areas ripe to be pruned in relation to public expenditure, from An Bord Snip's ideas to the excellent ideas that I'm sure a lot of the posters here have.
But to take a blanket approach and just end drug payment assistance after 3 cycles is a cruel, cruel blow. It puts tonnes of pressure on people undergoing their second or third cycle. Why not be imaginative, place some supports, like a €1000 cost for drugs during the fourth cycle?
On a side note, I find it ever more frustrating living in Ireland under a ruling party I never voted for. People always castigate the opposition when it isn't really fair given that they haven't had a shot at government in 12+ years. I keep voting Labour but not many other people do, so I'm in the minority there as well. But then I'm probably an anomoly in that I'd be happy to pay higher taxes for better public services and have no desire for the highs and lows of liberal economics, rather would trade any notion of an SUV and detached house a nice mellow life of quiet dignity with good public transport infrastructure, excellent education and universal healthcare.0 -
Just stepping in here - he will not say it, unfortunatly and I am not as elequent as my husband - the thing is that Smccarrick is affected by infertility, probably mine (to be confirmed). This is an issue that has touched us deeply and we do not know where we would get the money for such treatments if we decide to go down that route (it looks like, unfortunatly adoption is out for us).Rainbowrapids wrote: »This is a very interesting debate, and if it wasn't one so personal to me, I'd dare say I'd be enjoying it!
Illness has severly affected my life and much as I hate admitting it, I would rather that limited resources were spent there. Yes, I know the severe distress of being potentially childless but compared to life without other loved ones that pales in the background.
I do wish you all the best and have a great deal of sympathy for your position.0 -
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Rainbowrapids- its not a sin to have principals. I haven't voted for the current government either- because I didn't believe they were capable of running the country. Unfortunately the assessment I made at the polling booth was accurate.
It always is a bitter blow when something we have always had an entitlement to is taken from us. I respect what you are saying in that regard.
I too believe that the vunerable in society deserve to be protected- where I disagree with you- is in looking at the bottom line- what can be afforded and how do we allocate scare resources. It is my firm belief that the money for a great many things which are currently available- simple is not sustainable.
We can suggest to the public that we pay higher tax in return for better services. Unfortunately the past few years have proven that in an Irish context this simply is not the case. We may have relatively low headline tax rates- but where the Irish excel is at indirect taxation. When you compare relative purchasing power, in lieu of headline salaries- the minimum wage and the otherwise bloated headline salaries we see bandied about in the media- simply do not translate into the ability to purchase in the same manner they do elsewhere in Europe.
We're not massively loaded either- and spend in the region of 20% of our net income on health and medication on an ongoing basis. We used get a 40% rebate- akin to the rebate for IVF treatment and meds- and have had this slashed too. Our tax rebates are immediately plowed straight back into more med bills.
I genuinely do not know how we are going to get through the current mess- and am almost baffled at the lack of concern and debate in public at the extent of the mess. For the most part- if you try to bring hard facts about public finances to people- you get branded as either a scare mongerer or alternatively, hysterical.
In an ideal world IVF treatment- would be available- not just Meds- for anyone who needed it. Unfortunately our world is becoming less and less ideal on a daily basis.......
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SMcCarrick & CathyMoran - Thanks for your thoughtful replies. It was a very interesting debate, and I wish you both the very best.0
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CathyMoran wrote: »Some long term medical conditions are not included on the long term illness scheme and should be in my opinion, people could die without these meds yet they still have to pay something towards them.
Such as anyone with a mental illness over the age of 16. We get DPS cover, that's it, no GP visit card, nothing. We'll see a GP far far more often than someone without these conditions etc etc.0 -
Yes, I can imagine - we do not get the GP card either and my husband who has crohns is soley on the DPS. That is the thing, it really upsets me that all these things are not free (including infertility treatment) but surely with limited resouces you have to focus on certain things.Such as anyone with a mental illness over the age of 16. We get DPS cover, that's it, no GP visit card, nothing. We'll see a GP far far more often than someone without these conditions etc etc.0 -
I'm not sure I can agree with the position that the taxpayer should be funding IVF. I can certainly understand why people would love to have children, and how awful it must be to be unable to.
But fundamentally, no one "needs" to have children. At least not in the way that a cancer patient needs chemotherapy. Public funds should be spent on "needs".
Having a child may be the strongest desire in the world, but it's not a need.0 -
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smccarrick wrote: »With all due respect- we are in a situation of having to allocate increasingly scarce resources. You state that it is not a question of saving lives versus treating infertility. Other DPS and LTI medication is directly saving lives (think of diabetics with insulin (LTI), crohn's disease with B12 injections and humira (DPS) etc). If you look at the larger health budget- 15k will buy 10 defibrilators and train 30 people in their use....... However, thankfully neither you nor I are tasked with playing god in resource allocation. We are reaching the situation where we do actually have to make these decisions- it simply is blinkered to suggest that funding one particular area does not necessarily impact on another. As a whole- IVF medication on the DPS scheme is a very minor component. It might however represent whether a local sports club gets a defibrilator and training on how to use it or not. I know I am using an extreme example- it is however relevant (and I am a trained Paramedic who does notice something like this in particular).
Here is where I have a difficulty. . your entire argument is based around there being a choice between fertility treatment and saving lives . . . Elsewhere, you agree that fertility treatment should be funded were the money available but yet the examples you give just don't add up.. Diabetics will get their insulin / Crohns patients will get their B12 injections and cancer patients will get their chemotherapy treatments whether or not the DPS covers the cost of fertility medications. . You are using a principled choice to illustrate your argument and I respect where you are coming from but this principled choice is not a real world choice. And to be honest the defibrillator in a local sports club, in my opinion is a lower priority than funding fertility treatments.I too suffer chronic allergies- like you. Unlike you- my symptoms include a swelling of the eyeballs and internal organs- and an inability to absorb iron. I similar to you pay a startling amount in taxes annually (only a small portion of my tax bill is related to my daytime PAYE job). Are we suggesting though that we quantify a person's contribution towards the exchequer and use this as a balance against which the costs of medication are offset?
In your case if your condition were severe to the extent that your contribution as a taxpayer were lost- because you took time off work and didn't contribute as you are doing- it would be detrimental to society as a whole. This is a very dangerous road to go down though- and would be highly divisive- by placing a nominal value of differing nature on different classes of people. Would you be dispensed steroids and antihistamine- and a medical card patient not? I would argue first and foremost that there should not be any differentation whatsoever in rights or entitlements between the different schemes- and the current difference should be tackled immediately. You and I differ insofar as you think the entitlements afforded to medical card patients should also be afforded to DPS patients. I would argue that it makes no sense whatsoever to allow it to the medical card patients- and should be rescinded at the earliest possible opportunity- not rolled out to the DPS scheme.
By the way- I too pay my EUR100 a month- and I am certain my regular medication that I need comes to a multiple of this contribution.
So, taking my example and ignoring the health economics piece of it (which by the way, is a separate and very interesting debate), let me consider the health service that you propose. My condition is severe, untreated it is very debilitating, I would struggle to spend any time outdoors during the summer months and my quality of life would suffer hugely. In your world, my treatments are not covered under the DPS but that's OK . . I can probably afford to pay full price for my medications so I am not going to suffer, nor will the economy suffer from my being out of work. However, in your world those people with a similar condition who cannot afford to pay for their medications will suffer. For several months each year they will suffer, some of them really quite badly. The less well off people in Ireland will be entitled to nothing but life-saving medications on the medical card scheme or DPS and they will be able to afford little else so they will suffer . . . so that sports clubs can have defibrillators ??Ireland is in severe financial difficulty. The extent of these difficulties have not been communicated to the public. Every lobby group fighting its corner in the expectation of further largess from the exchequer is a recipe for disaster. We have not made the hard choices that need to be made. There is uproar over the proposals in the McCarthy report- yet it only addresses 4.6 billion of savings. We have a deficit of 24 billion (and are borrowing almost 26 billion). This year ~17% of our tax take is going towards sevicing our debt, current projections show ~25% of our tax take servicing debt by 2011- and 28% by 2012. These are actually conservative measures. I am not suggesting Ireland is a 3rd world country- I am stating that we are living beyond our means- and that someone has to say stop. Another 2 government TDs resigned their whips this evening- rather than accept proposals to merge cancer services from Sligo General with University Hospital Galway. The government has not fallen- no, but it most certainly is coming apart at the seams.......
I disagree with your analysis but this is not an economics debate and there are other forums on here to have this discussion. . I do agree that the government is falling apart at the seams . . I hope that it does fall and that we have a general election as early as possible because the last thing we need in our current situation is the severe political instability that we have now0 -
This is an extremely interesting thread.
Personally I do not believe that the state should be funding the medicines associated with fertility treatment.
I agree that its extremely sad if a couple wants to have a child and cannot do so naturally. But I do not agree that the state has a responsibility to partially fund the medicines associated with it.
As a society I believe we are responsible for looking after the medical needs of our citizens. But I do not see fertility treatment as a medical need.0 -
Rainbowrapids wrote: »I'm also a firm believer in supporting the vulnerable in society having always been in the privileged position of not being the vulnerable in society until about a year ago.
When resources are tight, they have to be targetted. Targetted at those most vulnerable and in need. Infertility can be heartbreaking, but I really don't think it classifies as being 'vulnerable in society'.0 -
username123 wrote: »
As a society I believe we are responsible for looking after the medical needs of our citizens. But I do not see fertility treatment as a medical need.
How can the medical inabiity of two people to carry out one of the most fundamental of human functions (to conceive naturally) not be considered a medical need . . . I'm truly baffled at how widespread this view is . .0 -
SarahMc - with the warmest wish that infertility never affects you, your loved ones or anyone you come in contact with, I write with the hope that you will read this with an open mind and heart.
When I saw your message I wasn't going to write back. You see naively I had hoped my earlier posts communicated how vulnerable it is to be infertile, and it saddened me that they hadn't. I had hoped that people might realise that public funding aside being infertile generally speaking renders you vulnerable, and believe me, nobody in their right mind wants to be either (a) infertile or (b) vulnerable, it sucks!!!
But then I thought maybe SarahMc just doesn't realise. After all it wasn't that clear to me how important the ability to have children (even if it isn't something that a person decides to do, or doesn't happen due to wrong place/wrong time/wrong partner, I mean the physical capability to have children) is to a person's sense of being and meaning until there was a problem. Fertility is such an ephemeral thing that it is hard to quantify how it feels when you're told your infertile, it's like realising that you're marked out, different, unfinished, incapable.
Now since I became one of those vulnerable people (despite my best efforts not to) a few nice things happened. One of them was that I became more compassionate. So even though writing on this forum at this time is painful there is thiss urge on behalf of other people in similar situations to try and communicate to SarahMc that we are vulnerable and how to do this?
Should I write about the pain of not being able to do what all your friends can, how weird and awful it is to giggle and smile (I'd break their hearts if I told them the truth) as some of my closest friends and colleagues tease about children I know I probably will never have, probe me to find out why we haven't gone for it, or talk conspiratorially about people 'who can't have children' or joke about 'turkey basters' and so on to me as though I'm just like them, even though due to this darned tooting unavoidable prediciment they actually could be talking about me, how vulnerable that makes me?
Maybe if I wrote about how awful it is to watch my parents who love me realise that they may not have a grandchild and realise that even though I can't help it, this is my fault, would that help in terms of realising how vulnerable infertility makes people?
Ah shoot, if you've read my posts on this forum and didn't realise the vulnerability between each word I might as well go with a logical approach and forget the personal one!
Okay so in dictionary.com definitions of vulnerability include: capable of or susceptible to being wounded or hurt, as by a weapon; open to moral attack, criticism, temptation
From conversing with people who also find themselves in the position of not being able to do the most natural, beautiful, creative thing that humans can do, and many would say is the reason and meaning of life, that is to give life, I can confirm that infertilty sadly renders one all to capable or susceptible to being wounded or hurt as by a weapon, and open to moral attack, criticism.
A simple google search will give you access to tonnes of research and articles by medics, experts and stories from people's lives that will articulate much better than I can the sheer vulnerability of being infertile.
If you still don't agree but are open-minded and want to research it just contact any of the national and international infertility groups in person and talk to some of us.
While I respect your personal opinion on the allocation of public funds (I'm not saying I agree of course!) please please please please think about your statement about vulnerability. And I don't mean in terms of this thread on a random internet forum, I mean in terms of your life and how you treat those you come in contact with.
Because even though I hope your only contact with infertility is on an internet forum, with statistics of 1 in 6 couples experiencing it to a lesser or greater degree, chances are you already have, maybe someone you work with/sit on a bus beside/share a beer with on payday.
Infertility is generally speaking a very secret thing within our society due to the vulnerability associated, the fact that it is generally speaking a social taboo, open to moral scrutiny and judgement. Truth is infertile people are normal dudes like me who can't help being infertile but are so and will continue to be so all of their lives, even if they are lucky and can complete their family through assisted reproduction (whether they have to pay for their own drugs or not!), fostering, adoption, cats, dogs, pursuing other activities.
They also happen to be vulnerable people doing their absolute tip-top best to get along, who really could do with support and compassion from those around them, and that's everyone, including you SarahMc!
I wish you all the very best.
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I've posed this question several times and have yet to receive an answer , here goes again..
I'm a male mid 30's who took a small knock playing football that left me infertile . I didn't even realise for months afterwards . How can people state that I don't have a medical condition or that I don't have a medical need ? If I'd lost any other function/ability on that football pitch the state would be offering me health care . If I'd suffered any other type of injury I would be treated , why is my personal injury so different ?
I think infertile people feel vulnerable for many reasons . One is the secrecy involved , I would gladly shout my condition from the roof tops and I genuinely feel this would help me deal with it but my wife wants to keep this personal and I'll go with her wishes . Another reason I think there's a stigma attached is the states refusal to either fund the treatment or legislate for the possible consequences of it . If your own government feels you unworthy of protection than what exactly are it's people supposed to feel ?0 -
When resources are tight, they have to be targetted. Targetted at those most vulnerable and in need. Infertility can be heartbreaking, but I really don't think it classifies as being 'vulnerable in society'.
Being continually asked when it will be "your turn" every time someone at work or in your social circle gets pregnant.
Being eventually excluded from your circle of friends as one by one, they become pregnant and their life and talk begins to revolve around parenthood.
Going through the emotional rollercoaster of an almost constant cycle of waiting for your cycle to begin, waiting for ovulation, waiting for test dates, and being disappointed, all without anyone else having any clue of knowing what you're going through.
Taking drugs (paid for YOURSELF) that cause horrendous pain, mood swings and side effects to try and correct underlying MEDICAL problems such as endo or pcos that cause infertility (as well as a whole host of other painful and embarassing problems)
Never knowing the joy of a positive test, pregnancy and parenthood, despite having the awareness that the joy is an available and noisily celebrated part of "normal" life - from friends, family, education, the media, etc etc
Alternatively (in my case) having your hopes raised by becoming pregnant then going through the physical and emotional trauma of miscarriage an ectopic pregnancy, each time knowing it will take you years to conceive again if at all.
And having to deal with a general public view that infertility is a bit of a bummer, but not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things which makes people even less able to talk openly about the thing at the forefront of their minds and lives, leading to isolation, financial dependency, chronic depression, suicidal thoughts and the thought that one day, when your parents and partner are gone, there will be no children, no family: there will only be you.
Yes, I'm afraid infertility does make you vulnerable in society.
Edited to say: sorry rainbow - posted at the same time as you and didn't see your post. You pretty much nailed it.0 -
mrsweebri - your post in particular touched me, I have also miscarried (at 10 weeks, baby would have been born on the 17th of August) and I can relate to all your comments, the pain when others are able to do what we cant, the waiting to see if you are pregnant...Rainbowrapids, you also wrote a similarly touching piece. Personally I am dreading going for the tests to confirm the news that I am infertile - I gave it one last month and am waiting in dread for my period, being pertrified that I will have yet another chemical pregnancy.
But - I still feel, and I hate to admit it, that the money which is limited for the foreseable future should be spent on giving people such as epileptics, those with mental illnesses, etc. their medication and treatment.0 -
CathyMoran wrote: »But - I still feel, and I hate to admit it, that the money which is limited for the foreseable future should be spent on giving people such as epileptics, those with mental illnesses, etc. their medication and treatment.
You, and others continue to make this argument and I will continue to point out the falseness of it. It is convenient to pose this as a choice between saving lives and treating infertility. Everyone (even me) will agree that saving lives is a priority. But we do not have to make this choice. Epileptics will not get drugs that they otherwise would not have got as a result of this decision by the government. We can afford to do both as long as we accept that infertility is a medical condition as worthy of treatment as epilepsy, diabetes etc . .
There is a whole section of Irish society that have to live with infertility without any form of treatment because the cost of treatment (as opposed to medication) is a barrier that blocks all but the middle and higher incomes. For them, the decision to restrict the DPS will make no difference as they can't afford the E5000 a pop treatment costs that the taxpayer provides no assistance with. So they suffer in the manner that rainbowrapids & mrsweebri have described so movingly in this thread. They are the vulnerable and this decision by the government will do nothing other than increase the volume of people who fall into this bracket.
For those who believe that infertility is not a medical condition equally worthy of publicly funded treatment as epilepsy, diabetes etc, I challenge you to read some of the personal testimony posted on here by those who have and continue to suffer and think for a moment about what you are posting . .0 -
^ Im sure it's really hard and painful but no matter what you say it wont convince me that cancer isnt harder, that long term illness isnt harder, that bi enniel colonoscopies and endoscopies arent harder, that spinal surgeries for kids with scoliosis isnt harder.
Do you know the crisis the health system is in around the country? Do you know that in my nearest hospital there are only 2 radiologists working and they are there until 10pm at night and there is a HUGE waiting list for scans as well as for the results of scans aready made.0 -
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You have both expressed beautifully the heartbreak of infertility. However, I stand by my assertion that resources ought to be targetted at those MOST vulnerable, children living in poverty, the physically and mentally sick, the old etc.
Do not assume, that just because I agree with the current cutbacks on the DPS I lack compassion. Like you Rainbow, I would happily pay extra tax, and this Government with its legacy of squandered wealth and vested interests does not represent me.
I work with vulnerable people every day, I spend lots of spare time volunteering. I have been blessed with one child, but I cannot have another. Thats not what I would have chosen, would love to have had a brood, but thats just not the way my life worked out. In part, that gap is filled by volunteering with children's groups. In fact most of the leaders (all of whom are close friends) are infertile. They do not see themselves as life's victims, or societies vulnerable, but rather use their time in a very productive way whilst seeking to satisfy the natural nurturing instinct.
I'm not saying those that are infertile should just accept it and seek other outlets for these instincts, but I do think 3 rounds, whilst not generous, is about right in this basket case economy.
There are people who have been touched by infertility and still agree with money being spent elsewhere instead. Don't assume that people who disagree with you just don't understand how much heartbreak you are living.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »How can the medical inabiity of two people to carry out one of the most fundamental of human functions (to conceive naturally) not be considered a medical need . . . I'm truly baffled at how widespread this view is . .
I do not see it as a need because it is still possible to live a long, happy, healthy, fulfilled life without conceiving. You may feel that life is unfulfilled without conceiving, thats fine and I do not disagree with your entitlement to this opinion, but I do not feel the same way. I think that fixating on ANY one thing in life as the 'be all and end all' is an unhealthy mental attitude to have. Im not saying that its not a terribly sad thing, but there are many terribly sad things in life that all humans must deal with - that does not in any way, shape or form diminish the importance of this issue to some people, and I fully sympathise and empathise with anyone who suffers from infertility. But I do not believe, in these times when public money is scarce, that it is something that public money should be spent on.
We dont live in an ideal world, if we did Id like to see all fertility treatment, doctors, drugs, the lot - free. But thats not the world that we live in.0 -
username123 wrote: »I do not see it as a need because it is still possible to live a long, happy, healthy, fulfilled life without conceiving..
I'm sure its possible for YOU to live a long, happy, healthy and fulfilled life without conceiving . . . The personal testimony of others on this forum (and all around you in society if you look closely enough) should teach you that its not possible for everyone . . .
To ignore this and to talk about infertility sufferers as those who "fixate on ANY one thing" shows a naivety that I hope you are never cured from. Your approach is at best patronising, at worst callous.Im sure it's really hard and painful but no matter what you say it wont convince me that cancer isnt harder, that long term illness isnt harder, that bi enniel colonoscopies and endoscopies arent harder, that spinal surgeries for kids with scoliosis isnt harder.
I don't think anyone on here is trying to convince you that any of those conditions are not harder. . . and we have to get away from the argument of infertility versus cancer or infertility versus epilepsy etc. . All the conditions you mention are worthy of high quality, publicly funded medical treatment and I am happy to pay my taxes to make this possible. Some of us believe that infertility should be treated as well as (NOT instead of) all of these conditions.0 -
TBH with you Id rather sign a petition which says patients undergoing colonoscopies and endoscopies are entitled to concious sedation and that more funding will go to more medical staff to shorten waiting lists and take some of the stress off the staff already working there.
And a petition to change adoption laws.0 -
I don't make any assumptions about anyone or anything.
Please don't make assumptions about me or other people dealing with infertility, how we spend our time, what we give back to society, how we feel about other vulnerable people in our society, how we feel about our own infertility.
I tried to communicate clearly and openly on this forum in a way that I haven't even with those closest to me, family and friends, even those who know that I am infertile, about the reality of living with being infertile.
I never compared infertility to other illnesses, never said it deserved more attention that other chronic conditions, live-threatening illnesses, in fact have at all times been clear that I felt it didn't.
I never said I don't live a full live, never said that I think infertility has meant I will not lead a full life, never said that it means I can't get on with other parts of my life.
I shared in a spirit of openness hoping that by showing what the reality is you might gain a deeper understanding of infertility.
Some people have, and for that I am thankful. Others haven't.
I wish you well, and for those who I haven't been able to communicate clearly with, I hope it all stays fine for you, I really do.
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ps: Metrovelvet - why don't you set up a petition about both of those issues then? I'll sign it! I've not had an endoscopy, sounds awful, but I have been sedated (for IVF) and it was actually very pleasant. In terms of the adoption petition, I'll sign that one in capital letters!0
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hallelujajordan wrote: »I'm sure its possible for YOU to live a long, happy, healthy and fulfilled life without conceiving . . . The personal testimony of others on this forum (and all around you in society if you look closely enough) should teach you that its not possible for everyone . . .
You took one quote out of context, had you quoted the rest of what I said I in fact stated that I did not disagree with the opinion of others who felt they could not be fulfilled without conceiving. I simply do not feel the same way. When I look around me (and indeed at my own life) I see many awful things that happen in the course of human existance. There is no point in comparing one issue of human suffering with another - its a completely subjective experience. But that still does not cause me to believe that public monies should be used to fund medicine for fertility treatment.hallelujajordan wrote: »To ignore this and to talk about infertility sufferers as those who "fixate on ANY one thing" shows a naivety that I hope you are never cured from. Your approach is at best patronising, at worst callous.
I did not ignore anything, nor did I talk about infertility sufferers as those who fixate on any one thing, that was a general comment about the nature of the human mind as a whole, not just infertility sufferers, but indeed anyone who fixates on any one thing believing that it is the only thing that will fulfill them and make them happy is displaying a negative and unhealthy attitude.
You use words like callous and patronising because you are not really listening to what is being said from an alternative view. At no point in my post did I personally insult you, or any other infertility sufferer, or claim that because you feel the way you do that you are wrong. In fact I stated that I both sympathisied and emphasised with anyone suffering from infertility. However, it seems that it is ok for you to assert that I am callous because I disagree with your point of view.
Perhaps if you could reread my posts calmly you would see that I believe you are entitled to your opinion, I just do not share it. This does not make you wrong, or make me wrong, it just means that we share different views.hallelujajordan wrote: »Some of us believe that infertility should be treated as well as (NOT instead of) all of these conditions.
And some of us do not. Not because we are callous and patronising, but because we hold a different viewpoint.
What it appears to boil down to is that you believe the ability to conceive is more important to a human than anything else, and that public funding to assist those who cannot conceive naturally should be a right. Otherwise their lives will be ruined.
I just dont agree with that.0 -
I have also posted about infertility and how is has affected me - however I also have other medical conditions and believe that I would not be alive today if I had not had medical insurance to pay for treatment. I would far rather that any money be spent on endscopies, colonoscopies etc (they are not being done so currently) than on fertility treatments. I do have a great deal of sympathy for those with fertility issues, especially as I have them myself and also in the way that it has been put so elequently accross by some people - I know that if I started to write how I feel I would not be able to stop and it would upset me deeply.hallelujajordan wrote: »There is a whole section of Irish society that have to live with infertility without any form of treatment because the cost of treatment (as opposed to medication) is a barrier that blocks all but the middle and higher incomes. For them, the decision to restrict the DPS will make no difference as they can't afford the E5000 a pop treatment costs that the taxpayer provides no assistance with. So they suffer in the manner that rainbowrapids & mrsweebri have described so movingly in this thread. They are the vulnerable and this decision by the government will do nothing other than increase the volume of people who fall into this bracket.
For those who believe that infertility is not a medical condition equally worthy of publicly funded treatment as epilepsy, diabetes etc, I challenge you to read some of the personal testimony posted on here by those who have and continue to suffer and think for a moment about what you are posting . .0 -
I personally feel that any person living with any type of medical condition is entitled to some form of treatment . I consider infertility to be a medical condition therefore I consider it cruel that treatment is denied to these couples and always has been in this country.
To then deny them full access to the DPS scheme is to my mind callous .
If it's a straight choice between chronic illness sufferers and the infertile then obviously you have to protect life first but I find it very very hard to believe that that's the situation we're in .0 -
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oh well , okay wrote: »
If it's a straight choice between chronic illness sufferers and the infertile then obviously you have to protect life first but I find it very very hard to believe that that's the situation we're in .
Well it is. If you were ill or knew someone who was or had to deal with the current medical situation in any way you would know that.0
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