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Petition against ivf meds cutbacks on dps card
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How very presumptuous and such assumptions really do your argument no favours .
In the past 2 years I have had a an Aunt die from cancer , a nephew hospitalised with depression , both parents hospitalised with differing ailments , sometimes serious sometimes not so . I've had my father in law suffer dementia , and a sister in law diagnosed with MS . I've been in hospital twice with relatively minor ailments . I could go on but really it's incidental .
I've seen some receive fantastic care , some not so great , some poor and one in particular receive treatment that I would consider criminal but this has been the exception . My parents to this day receive assistance that is a credit to our local nurses .
All of the above and many others when they were ill/injured all received treatment of some description be it good or poor but they all received treatment.
I found out 6 months ago that I had become infertile after a very minor accident . I receive no treatment from the state , the only concession afforded to me was the DPS scheme , now that is being capped .
If during my accident I had received facial scarring , lost a finger or any number of even trivial conditions I would have received treatment . Why should my particular injury be different ?
I see the argument doled out here that times are bad , moneys scarce . Come back when the global recovery sails into town . But we've had over a decade of boom and during this time when money was plentiful IVF treatment still received no funding , never a penny . If this isn't a message of the value the state affords sufferers of infertility than what message is it .
If the state was cutting back on IVF funding from a level consistent with other western countries I would understand but that's not the case . It's cutting back on something it has never funded and is doing so in an underhand manner . It's not even doing it as a cost cutting measure but cries safety as if it suddenly holds concern for infertile couples .
I understand that priorities have to be made but in a health service that treats everything from AIDS to a sprained wrist to freezing a wart surely their should be some kind of service to aid infertile couples .
It's midnight Saturday and I'm "tired and emotional" so apologies for any spelling errors in the above !0 -
username123 wrote: »You took one quote out of context, had you quoted the rest of what I said I in fact stated that I did not disagree with the opinion of others who felt they could not be fulfilled without conceiving. I simply do not feel the same way.I did not ignore anything, nor did I talk about infertility sufferers as those who fixate on any one thing, that was a general comment about the nature of the human mind as a whole, not just infertility sufferers, but indeed anyone who fixates on any one thing believing that it is the only thing that will fulfill them and make them happy is displaying a negative and unhealthy attitude.
Actually I didn't quote you out of context at all and the fact that you throw in words like sympathise and empathise does not take away from the message you were very clearly putting accross . . . and your comment about fixation was not a general comment but one directly related to those who struggle to deal with infertility. You suggested that those who fixate on any one thing in life as the be all and end all (like infertility) are exhibiting an unhealthy mental attitude . . Your words !
I didn't describe your approach as callous because you disagreed with me. We are all entitled to hold and debate our opinions. I described your description of infertility as an unhealthy mental attitude as callous . . . particularly as your comments came after some posters opened their hearts and shared what infertility really is like !However, it seems that it is ok for you to assert that I am callous because I disagree with your point of view.
Not more important, just equally important.metrovelvet wrote:What it appears to boil down to is that you believe the ability to conceive is more important to a human than anything else, and that public funding to assist those who cannot conceive naturally should be a right.0 -
oh well , okay wrote: »How very presumptuous and such assumptions really do your argument no favours .
In the past 2 years I have had a an Aunt die from cancer , a nephew hospitalised with depression , both parents hospitalised with differing ailments , sometimes serious sometimes not so . I've had my father in law suffer dementia , and a sister in law diagnosed with MS . I've been in hospital twice with relatively minor ailments . I could go on but really it's incidental .
I've seen some receive fantastic care , some not so great , some poor and one in particular receive treatment that I would consider criminal but this has been the exception . My parents to this day receive assistance that is a credit to our local nurses .
All of the above and many others when they were ill/injured all received treatment of some description be it good or poor but they all received treatment.
I found out 6 months ago that I had become infertile after a very minor accident . I receive no treatment from the state , the only concession afforded to me was the DPS scheme , now that is being capped .
If during my accident I had received facial scarring , lost a finger or any number of even trivial conditions I would have received treatment . Why should my particular injury be different ?
I see the argument doled out here that times are bad , moneys scarce . Come back when the global recovery sails into town . But we've had over a decade of boom and during this time when money was plentiful IVF treatment still received no funding , never a penny . If this isn't a message of the value the state affords sufferers of infertility than what message is it .
If the state was cutting back on IVF funding from a level consistent with other western countries I would understand but that's not the case . It's cutting back on something it has never funded and is doing so in an underhand manner . It's not even doing it as a cost cutting measure but cries safety as if it suddenly holds concern for infertile couples .
I understand that priorities have to be made but in a health service that treats everything from AIDS to a sprained wrist to freezing a wart surely their should be some kind of service to aid infertile couples .
It's midnight Saturday and I'm "tired and emotional" so apologies for any spelling errors in the above !
Are you aware that people in Sligo and south Donegal are now going to have to drive a minimum of three hours in each direction to get to Galway for cancer treatment?
Are you aware of all the closures in Crumlin?
Are you aware of the pharmacy crisis?
Seriously, does that not tell you what a disaster we are facing?0 -
I fully support this decision and every individual / couple who are going through IVF. Call me naive but I would like to think that we are at least striving towards a civilised society where help is given to people, who through no fault of their own are struggling to fulfill one of the most overwhelming natural desires, to raise and love and nurture a child. It's not as if they're asking to be supported in heroin addiction is it (even though many are)? It is silly and not helpful to compare this desire to wanting to be able to run or golf well.
I have been lucky enough to have been blessed with two children but I have many friends and family members who have had to resort to IVF (some successful, others not). Some have gone down the adoption route and that was every bit as torturous and expensive as IVF. To this day, this couple deal with comments from people about the selfishness of taking children out of their adopted country and have been subject to comparisons to Madonna of late.
One thing I have noticed is that anyone I know who has had successful IVF or adoption process, are some of the most fantastic, appreciative parents I know and their children are some of the happiest, well-balanced and secure you could care to meet. Without exception.
There are thousands of people in this country who abuse their bodies and mental health by smoking, drinking, poor diets, drug taking etc. Are we going to go down the road of denying them healthcare in the future, because they decided to lead an unhealthy lifestyle / be selfish? It's just the reverse of the situation. As a previous poster said, there is plenty of money in this country, it's just not being spent wisely. I have worked in the public service for years and will never come to terms with the amount of waste and reckless spending that goes on. And as this problem is apparently only going to affect non-medical card holders so it is safe to assume that most of the people affected by this are tax payers.
I really feel if this is implemented, we are taking a backward step.0 -
metrovelvet wrote: »Are you aware that people in Sligo and south Donegal are now going to have to drive a minimum of three hours in each direction to get to Galway for cancer treatment?
Are you aware of all the closures in Crumlin?
Are you aware of the pharmacy crisis?
Seriously, does that not tell you what a disaster we are facing?
The national cancer strategy was in put in place long before the current economic downturn and is Mary Harney's attempt to improve cancer healthcare by establishing centres of excellence. Whether or not you agree with this strategy, it is not being put in place because of a lack of money, it is a strategic restructuring around how we treat cancer. There are people reading this who would happily drive from the tip to the toe of Ireland to get access to publicly funded fertility treatment.
The pharmacy crisis is a direct response by the government to the recession and I find it absolutely appropriate that in times like this the government should reel in some of the profits that the pharmacists around the country have been making (which have been vastly disproportionate to their colleagues around Europe). The fact that the Pharmacists Union have triggered a crisis by effectively holding the sick people of Ireland to ransom has nothing to do with how public funds have or should be allocated.
Closures in Crumlin are regrettable. Again, the HSE will argue that this is part of a long term strategy. . I'm not sure I agree . .I think we should make it a priority to have top class healthcare available to the children of Ireland. But AGAIN, it doesn't have to be a choice between this and treating the infertile of Ireland. A properly run, public funded healthcare system in Ireland could afford both.0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »The national cancer strategy was in put in place long before the current economic downturn and is Mary Harney's attempt to improve cancer healthcare by establishing centres of excellence. Whether or not you agree with this strategy, it is not being put in place because of a lack of money, it is a strategic restructuring around how we treat cancer. There are people reading this who would happily drive from the tip to the toe of Ireland to get access to publicly funded fertility treatment.
.
How sick do you feel after fertility treatment? BEcause after GA or chemo you feel pretty damn bad and people who are sick already have low reserves of energy to start with so to have to travel, and possibly get overnight accommodation, is a most unfair burden on the ill.0 -
LittleRose wrote: »I fully support this decision and every individual / couple who are going through IVF. Call me naive but I would like to think that we are at least striving towards a civilised society where help is given to people, who through no fault of their own are struggling to fulfill one of the most overwhelming natural desires, to raise and love and nurture a child. It's not as if they're asking to be supported in heroin addiction is it (even though many are)? It is silly and not helpful to compare this desire to wanting to be able to run or golf well.
Im sorry but childlessness does not compromise your health or bring death to your door. The argument that it can bring on depression and complications into a marriage is sympathetic, but then so can a lot of things.LittleRose wrote: »I have been lucky enough to have been blessed with two children but I have many friends and family members who have had to resort to IVF (some successful, others not). Some have gone down the adoption route and that was every bit as torturous and expensive as IVF. To this day, this couple deal with comments from people about the selfishness of taking children out of their adopted country and have been subject to comparisons to Madonna of late.
Well, I have one child and if I started wah wahing about how I'd love another one but Im single so Id have to do it through IVF sperm donation and if I don't then I'm going to get seriously depressed, you would think I deserve publically funded money for this?LittleRose wrote: »One thing I have noticed is that anyone I know who has had successful IVF or adoption process, are some of the most fantastic, appreciative parents I know and their children are some of the happiest, well-balanced and secure you could care to meet. Without exception.
And I also know a couple of people who went through IVF and let me tell you the stories aint pretty. One got all her sperm donated from that genius sperm bank where you get to pick out athletes and nobel prize winners, she has three children, the youngest is autistic btw. And the other person I know is a 63 year old woman who desperately wanted a baby so she picked an egg from a cellist and a sperm from a russian truck driver. Well it was sucessful but it turns out she wanted a boy and was carrying a girl so you will never guess what she did.
But that is neither here nor there. It really doesnt matter what great or bad parents they are, its about prioritizing health in a time of crisis.LittleRose wrote: »There are thousands of people in this country who abuse their bodies and mental health by smoking, drinking, poor diets, drug taking etc. Are we going to go down the road of denying them healthcare in the future, because they decided to lead an unhealthy lifestyle / be selfish? It's just the reverse of the situation. As a previous poster said, there is plenty of money in this country, it's just not being spent wisely. I have worked in the public service for years and will never come to terms with the amount of waste and reckless spending that goes on. And as this problem is apparently only going to affect non-medical card holders so it is safe to assume that most of the people affected by this are tax payers.
I really feel if this is implemented, we are taking a backward step.
Well, tbh with you I do think if you smoke you should have to pay higher health insurance premiums, not higher taxes to the government on cigarette packs.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »There are people reading this who would happily drive from the tip to the toe of Ireland to get access to publicly funded fertility treatment.
But these people are not ill, and while a long drive may be stressful and tiring to a healthy person, it is an enormous burden to someone who is actually suffering from ill health.hallelujajordan wrote: »But AGAIN, it doesn't have to be a choice between this and treating the infertile of Ireland. A properly run, public funded healthcare system in Ireland could afford both.
I dont think anyone wants these difficult choices to be made, but we do not have a properly run public funded healthcare system - thats the reality. And given that reality, cutbacks need to be made. So the obvious place to make them is in non critical areas.0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »There are people reading this who would happily drive from the tip to the toe of Ireland to get access to publicly funded fertility treatment.
And they number amongst themselves people who would rather get fertility treatment than the knowledge that their sportsclub has a defibrilator and people trained in its use........hallelujajordan wrote: »The pharmacy crisis is a direct response by the government to the recession and I find it absolutely appropriate that in times like this the government should reel in some of the profits that the pharmacists around the country have been making (which have been vastly disproportionate to their colleagues around Europe). The fact that the Pharmacists Union have triggered a crisis by effectively holding the sick people of Ireland to ransom has nothing to do with how public funds have or should be allocated.
Its wholly to do with expenditure- this has not been denied by any of the parties to the dispute. DPS expenditure has increased 200% since 2002, while the numbers of prescriptions has gone up just over 50%. The IPU have proposed the use of generics to generate a percentage of necessary savings- the HSE want a far larger cut than the IPU are willing to countenance.
There are 345 new pharmacists graduating in Ireland annually. Most of the DPS profits are going to the owners of pharmacys- not to the pharmacists (fewer than 1-in-8 practising pharmacists own a pharmacy). To suggest they are all raking it in- is simply wrong. Its almost bizarre that I'm defending pharmacists here- but the misconception you are spreading is simply inaccurate spiel the HSE, Minister Harney and the media love to spread. Its inaccurate, plain and simple. It also wholly ignores the manner in which pharmacists cross-subsidise all of their other activities from their DPS funds. How many other shops will you randomly wander into for advice about an ailment and the shopkeeper will give you advice without trying to sell you something?hallelujajordan wrote: »Closures in Crumlin are regrettable. Again, the HSE will argue that this is part of a long term strategy. . I'm not sure I agree . .I think we should make it a priority to have top class healthcare available to the children of Ireland. But AGAIN, it doesn't have to be a choice between this and treating the infertile of Ireland. A properly run, public funded healthcare system in Ireland could afford both.
A properly run, sufficiently publicly funded healthcare system might. Unfortunately Ireland is accustomed to pump-parish politics- people want all facilities in their immediate vicinity. Sligo General is loosing its cancer services- so too is St. Vincents. That St.Vincents has a catchment area almost 7 times that of Sligo General- is politely ignored.
We do not have the funds to give every little community a hospital and every other public amenity or facility that they decide they want. We don't.
What is unfair about the current proposal concerning infertility medication is that it is generating different entitlements between different groups of people. There should be equality- equal rights for all. However- this does not mean we give into every interest group. Don't get upset with me- I'm affected by this as you are- but I believe in looking at the larger picture rather than focusing on the small part of the picture as it pertains to me.
It really hasn't sunk in- that the current cut- is but the first of many. Ireland has been living beyond its means. We don't have the money to employ the administrators in the HSE, pay the pharmacists 50% markups on LTI prescribing, give free medication to medical card patients, keep open hospitals in Cavan and elsewhere, etc.
Establishing centres of excellence for cancer care- and suggesting that infertile couples would be willing to travel while cancer patients are not- simply doesn't recognise the gravity of the position those patients are in.
I smile at kids and notice every second woman in the supermarket is pregnant and wish it were us. But then I see the woman ahead of us at the checkout with a bandana on her head, and blackened eyes from her chemotherapy, and I see that there is someone worse off than I hope I will ever be.
I married my wife when she was seriously ill- I had no idea whether we would ever be able to have kids (and we still don't know). I am adopted and would love nothing more than to have a kid who would be my own- perhaps he or she might have my eyes or nose- one way or the other they would be my bundle of joy. I don't know whether it will ever be.
I do understand where you are coming from- but you are pursuing an agenda and making wild comments that are very hurtful to others- whether you are willing to admit it or not.0 -
Yes, I certainly would prioritise the treatment of many over the very small risk that putting defibrillators in all the sports clubs in Ireland would mitigatesmccarrick wrote: »And they number amongst themselves people who would rather get fertility treatment than the knowledge that their sportsclub has a defibrilator and people trained in its use........smccarrick wrote:Its wholly to do with expenditure- this has not been denied by any of the parties to the dispute. DPS expenditure has increased 200% since 2002, while the numbers of prescriptions has gone up just over 50%. The IPU have proposed the use of generics to generate a percentage of necessary savings- the HSE want a far larger cut than the IPU are willing to countenance.
There are 345 new pharmacists graduating in Ireland annually. Most of the DPS profits are going to the owners of pharmacys- not to the pharmacists (fewer than 1-in-8 practising pharmacists own a pharmacy). To suggest they are all raking it in- is simply wrong. Its almost bizarre that I'm defending pharmacists here- but the misconception you are spreading is simply inaccurate spiel the HSE, Minister Harney and the media love to spread. Its inaccurate, plain and simple. It also wholly ignores the manner in which pharmacists cross-subsidise all of their other activities from their DPS funds. How many other shops will you randomly wander into for advice about an ailment and the shopkeeper will give you advice without trying to sell you something?
There are other threads where we can argue the pharmacy dispute but the pharmacy owners are making huge profits on the back of the huge cost of medication in Ireland. I believe there are other ways to save money and I believe there should be a much greater focus on the use of generics (although I question the amount of savings that generics will bring) but I also believe that clawing back some of the DPS profits is appropriate. BTW, the cross-subsidy bit is a little misleading. . I am not sure I have ever been in a pharmacy and gotten advice without any medication . . I have however seen lots of people sold decongestants that they don't need, homeopathic remedies that will do nothing, or a packet of nurofen when there is a packet of generic ibuprofen on the same shelf for half the price.
I wholeheartedly agree, and by and large I agree with Harney's centres of excellence strategyA properly run, sufficiently publicly funded healthcare system might. Unfortunately Ireland is accustomed to pump-parish politics- people want all facilities in their immediate vicinity. Sligo General is loosing its cancer services- so too is St. Vincents. That St.Vincents has a catchment area almost 7 times that of Sligo General- is politely ignored.
We do not have the funds to give every little community a hospital and every other public amenity or facility that they decide they want. We don't.What is unfair about the current proposal concerning infertility medication is that it is generating different entitlements between different groups of people. There should be equality- equal rights for all. However- this does not mean we give into every interest group. Don't get upset with me- I'm affected by this as you are- but I believe in looking at the larger picture rather than focusing on the small part of the picture as it pertains to me.
I'm not particularly affected by it. I have two little girls. We tried for three years and spent a lot of money trying to have a third but it wasn't to be . . now we have moved on. However the experience taught me what infertility is really like and what it must be like for those who are childless. I also saw the huge numbers of people that are affected (and they are only the ones who can afford to engage with the private clinics) This is a condition that I believe a modern society should not be willing to ignore.
I smile at kids and notice every second woman in the supermarket is pregnant and wish it were us. But then I see the woman ahead of us at the checkout with a bandana on her head, and blackened eyes from her chemotherapy, and I see that there is someone worse off than I hope I will ever be.
I married my wife when she was seriously ill- I had no idea whether we would ever be able to have kids (and we still don't know). I am adopted and would love nothing more than to have a kid who would be my own- perhaps he or she might have my eyes or nose- one way or the other they would be my bundle of joy. I don't know whether it will ever be.
I wish you and your wife well . . I really do. I know how tough the road you have to travel is and I hope you have a successful journey.I do understand where you are coming from- but you are pursuing an agenda and making wild comments that are very hurtful to others- whether you are willing to admit it or not.
I have no agenda; As I have said before I have been through the system and am out the other end. It cost me a lot of money but at least I could afford it. I don't believe I have said anything hurtful. I don't believe that any critical services should be sacrificed so that infertility can be treated . . . I just think that our modern society should make room for both. I criticised only those who refuse to recognise in the face of very personal testimony what infertility is really like.0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »I criticised only those who refuse to recognise in the face of very personal testimony what infertility is really like.
Bar some inane opening posts on this thread I dont see where people 'have refused to recognise in the face of very personal testimony what infertility is really like'. No one is disputing that it is a horrible thing to happen to a couple. If that is what you are reading from posts here then you need to reread them. People are simply saying that in the current economic crisis, cuts have to be made, and they do not feel that pubic monies are best spent funding medicine for infertility. Thats all. It is not a conspiracy against infertility. It is not a crusade to diminish the importance of infertility.
Sportsclub defibrillator Vs infertility treatment - I would think the sportsclub defibrillator has more value as it has the capacity to save a life.
Cancer treatments Vs infertility treatment - again I feel that cancer treatment should be prioritised as it may save a life.
The above is not to say that infertility treatment does not have value - of course it does, but just that saving the lives of those already with us should be prioritised, given the current economic crisis.0 -
"Well, I have one child and if I started wah wahing about how I'd love another one but Im single so Id have to do it through IVF sperm donation and if I don't then I'm going to get seriously depressed, you would think I deserve publically funded money for this?"
What?! Please think about what you write before posting.
This thread is offering people who chose to sign a petition the opportunity to.
Nearly 700 people had signed it the last time I checked.
Your language and flippant comments are hurtful. If you don't want to sign the petition that's fine. If you object to the petition set up a counter-petition.
Please bear in mind that real people are reading this and try not to be offensive, flippant and disrespectful.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to wound people, that's just being cruel.0 -
'wah wahing'
To diminish heartfelt honesty as
'wah wahing'
Oh dear.
Oh dearie, dearie me.0 -
And I also know a couple of people who went through IVF and let me tell you the stories aint pretty. One got all her sperm donated from that genius sperm bank where you get to pick out athletes and nobel prize winners, she has three children, the youngest is autistic btw. And the other person I know is a 63 year old woman who desperately wanted a baby so she picked an egg from a cellist and a sperm from a russian truck driver. Well it was sucessful but it turns out she wanted a boy and was carrying a girl so you will never guess what she did.
You appear to personally know one of the oldest women in Europe to receive IVF and two off the few in Ireland to successfully conceive using donated sperm . You do keep exclusive company . Could you kindly tell us what Irish clinic these women received their treatment ? I was under the impression what you describe above was unavailable in this country .Well, I have one child and if I started wah wahing about how I'd love another one
I read this and I realise that their really is no point in debating with you . The mask has slipped and I see no point in debating with what's revealed .
To Mr and Mrs McCarrick ,
I take your well made points , I really do and you're unfortunatley in a better position than most to contribute to the discussion . I agree with most of what you write and respect both your opinions . I wish you both well and hope you both receive great news when you investigate your fertility issues .
I personally feel infertility is a serious enough condition to warrant at least some funding . As I've said before I would agree with cutbacks if it were cut from a level of funding comparable with other countries . It receives no direct funding and to cut it's only indirect funding I think is cruel . I agree with prioritising but also feel their should be proportionality in our health service . I don't agree that the money isn't there , I think it is , just mismanaged .
I've said before (unregistered) I'm a male who got a bruise playing football and found out months later I couldn't have kids without ICSI . My wife and I are presently undergoing our first round of IVF . These past few days I've dwelt more on my condition than I have in months so i think it's time for me to bow out of this discussion .
Maybe I'm just a wah wah .0 -
username123 wrote: »Bar some inane opening posts on this thread I dont see where people 'have refused to recognise in the face of very personal testimony what infertility is really like'. No one is disputing that it is a horrible thing to happen to a couple. If that is what you are reading from posts here then you need to reread them. People are simply saying that in the current economic crisis, cuts have to be made, and they do not feel that pubic monies are best spent funding medicine for infertility. Thats all. It is not a conspiracy against infertility. It is not a crusade to diminish the importance of infertility.
Well you said a little more than that and i think your post was the only one I criticised (as opposed to disagreed with). The economic debate is an interesting one and I have enjoyed reading and debating different points of view; I did not enjoy those posts that described infertility sufferers as selfish and I did not enjoy your comment about infertility sufferers having an 'unhealthy mental attitude'0 -
oh well , okay wrote: »You appear to personally know one of the oldest women in Europe to receive IVF and two off the few in Ireland to successfully conceive using donated sperm . You do keep exclusive company . Could you kindly tell us what Irish clinic these women received their treatment ? I was under the impression what you describe above was unavailable in this country .
This wasnt in Europe but it is irrelevent where it is because it was to counterpoint another poster's claim that everyone she knew who had IVF are lovely parents.oh well , okay wrote: »I read this and I realise that their really is no point in debating with you . The mask has slipped and I see no point in debating with what's revealed
What is that supposed to mean?oh well , okay wrote: »To Mr and Mrs McCarrick ,
I take your well made points , I really do and you're unfortunatley in a better position than most to contribute to the discussion . I agree with most of what you write and respect both your opinions . I wish you both well and hope you both receive great news when you investigate your fertility issues .
I personally feel infertility is a serious enough condition to warrant at least some funding . As I've said before I would agree with cutbacks if it were cut from a level of funding comparable with other countries . It receives no direct funding and to cut it's only indirect funding I think is cruel . I agree with prioritising but also feel their should be proportionality in our health service . I don't agree that the money isn't there , I think it is , just mismanaged .oh well , okay wrote: »I've said before (unregistered) I'm a male who got a bruise playing football and found out months later I couldn't have kids without ICSI . My wife and I are presently undergoing our first round of IVF . These past few days I've dwelt more on my condition than I have in months so i think it's time for me to bow out of this discussion .
Maybe I'm just a wah wah .
No you're not a wah wah but why should money go to you that could go to someone who is in pain or about to die? [And btw my son is at risk for infertility due to a condition he has but I still would not expect public money to go to his wish to reproduce should he not be able to if at the time the climate should be as it is now.]0 -
Rainbowrapids wrote: »'wah wahing'
To diminish heartfelt honesty as
'wah wahing'
Oh dear.
Oh dearie, dearie me.
Yeah I suppose I am being flippant, I sort of think of as what my late father called a high class problem, and to you its huge, but to me pales
nexts to AIDS, cancer, auto immune diseases, crippling arthritis, organ transplants, you know... all those things that make your life hell, that leave your kids parentless, that leave your parents childless...
oh dearie me.0 -
If this is such a trivial issue why are you still posting on the thread, go do something about those other issues you feel so strongly about.
There's nothing 'high class' about being cruel. I'm sure your late father would agree, as would all the sufferers and non-sufferers of all sorts of illnesses on a spectrum of nothing to everything.
There's enough pain in the world as it is.
Be nice, trust me it's easy!0 -
As far as I know, they fund acne treatments. I've used those in the past, but spots were never distressing for me.
I think that fertility treatments should certainly have priority over this. Definitely more hurtful than a few little zits!
If it were a choice between life and death, and quality of life, then life or death should win. But it doesn't seem to be that clear cut if they'll pay for spot treatments.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »You, and others continue to make this argument and I will continue to point out the falseness of it. It is convenient to pose this as a choice between saving lives and treating infertility. Everyone (even me) will agree that saving lives is a priority. But we do not have to make this choice. Epileptics will not get drugs that they otherwise would not have got as a result of this decision by the government. We can afford to do both as long as we accept that infertility is a medical condition as worthy of treatment as epilepsy, diabetes etc . .
Infertility is a medical condition, I find it bizarre that people would think otherwise. Some people seem to consider that because a disease isn't actively causing the infertility it isn't a medical condition but the exact same thing could be said about diabetics or many people with mental illnesses who suffer from a medical condition not because of disease but because of genetics (similar to many infertility sufferers).
However; I find it equally bizarre that you would equate treating potentially fatal illnesses like diabetes, epilepsy or mental illnesses with infertility which while a horrible burden on any who have it won't kill them if it isn't treated.
I have bipolar, due to the type that I have I'll be on medication for life. These drugs cost me 100 euro a month, every month. I also need to visit my GP at least 6 or 7 times a year due to other illnesses I pick up because of the bipolar. I also have to see my psychiatrist 5 times a year or so.
So each year I spend approximately 1200 euro on drugs, 350 euro on the GP and 400 euro on my Psychiatrist. That's close to 2000 euro out of my pocket every year (and that's a good year where there haven't been any complications or hospitalisations!!). I can't decide not to spend this, it's all essential. The only way I get cover from the Government is if I'm unemployed or earn very little money and qualify for a medical card. That is what smccarrick is getting at, we have to fork out a substantial sum of money each year regardless of whether we want to or not. We get zero relief on this because money is spent elsewhere in the system, such as dps discounts on ivf drugs. Now personally I don't begrudge people with infertility getting these discounts and wouldn't be in favour of them being removed, but seriously the long term illness question is serious and there are a lot of people with very serious and potentially life threatening conditions who get no support from the Government at the moment so to argue that there isn't a choice between ivf and mental illness etc is false, the choice has already been made and ivf and other schemes get the money while we get nothing.0 -
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Does anyone not notice this? But this country is a fraud. Each and everyone should be entitled to this, the choice to create a family should not be left to those who can afford to conceive when there are complications.
She is obviously working for an Bord Snip....Bitch... and I'm a man and as you put it, I have no kids.....0 -
I don't equate them and never have. . Every medical condition doesn't have to be equal in severity to be worthy of public funding. The state funds all range of treatments, from getting benign warts removed to treating life threatening cancer and so it should. All I am saying is that infertility falls somewhere within this spectrum. You accept that its a medical condition yet other posters assert that it is the should be the only medical condition to be taken out of the publicly funded system completely.However; I find it equally bizarre that you would equate treating potentially fatal illnesses like diabetes, epilepsy or mental illnesses with infertility which while a horrible burden on any who have it won't kill them if it isn't treated.
Not quite true . . The government will continue to cover any medication expenses greater than 1200 a year; In addition the government will give you a tax rebate on your doctors expensesI have bipolar, due to the type that I have I'll be on medication for life. These drugs cost me 100 euro a month, every month. I also need to visit my GP at least 6 or 7 times a year due to other illnesses I pick up because of the bipolar. I also have to see my psychiatrist 5 times a year or so.
So each year I spend approximately 1200 euro on drugs, 350 euro on the GP and 400 euro on my Psychiatrist. That's close to 2000 euro out of my pocket every year (and that's a good year where there haven't been any complications or hospitalisations!!). I can't decide not to spend this, it's all essential. The only way I get cover from the Government is if I'm unemployed or earn very little money and qualify for a medical card.
And those being treated for infertility have to fork out an even greater expense just to get into the system. The amount the government cover is small by comparison and now they are looking to take that away too. To get to the point where you have had three rounds of IVF a couple will have already spent over 15,000 of their own money. Probably close to 25,000 when you add in the other treatments one tries prior to IVF. What the government are saying is that each new round of IVF will cost you personally more than 10,000 instead of 5000. They don't make this distinction for any other medical condition.That is what smccarrick is getting at, we have to fork out a substantial sum of money each year regardless of whether we want to or not. We get zero relief on this because money is spent elsewhere in the system, such as dps discounts on ivf drugs.
I don't know what other schemes you are talking about but IVF is probably the only form of medical treatment that is only available in private practice in this country. IVF sufferers certainly don't get all the money. In fact they get less support than any other medical condition.Now personally I don't begrudge people with infertility getting these discounts and wouldn't be in favour of them being removed, but seriously the long term illness question is serious and there are a lot of people with very serious and potentially life threatening conditions who get no support from the Government at the moment so to argue that there isn't a choice between ivf and mental illness etc is false, the choice has already been made and ivf and other schemes get the money while we get nothing.0 -
metrovelvet wrote: »Yeah I suppose I am being flippant, I sort of think of as what my late father called a high class problem, and to you its huge, but to me pales
nexts to AIDS, cancer, auto immune diseases, crippling arthritis, organ transplants, you know... all those things that make your life hell, that leave your kids parentless, that leave your parents childless...
oh dearie me.
There are a very many medical conditions, funded by the health service that will pale next to everything that you describe above and of course that is appropriate. The first priority of a health service should be to save lives.
But all of these conditions are treated by the health service and all other prescription medications are available through the DPS and that is also appropriate because improving the quality of life is also a health service priority.
I, and others believe that helping people (who otherwise couldn't) to create life should also be a priority. .
I am intrigued at your description of infertility as a high class problem and for a moment I was shocked but then I realised that you are only stating the obvious. It is a high class problem, not because it is trivial but because the barrier to entry is so bloody high. .madmac187 wrote:the choice to create a family should not be left to those who can afford to conceive when there are complications0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I don't equate them and never have. . Every medical condition doesn't have to be equal in severity to be worthy of public funding. The state funds all range of treatments, from getting benign warts removed to treating life threatening cancer and so it should. All I am saying is that infertility falls somewhere within this spectrum. You accept that its a medical condition yet other posters assert that it is the should be the only medical condition to be taken out of the publicly funded system completely.
And I don't agree with those posters. I feel that saying two conditions are equally worthy of treatment is equating them to an extent. Infertility is worthy of treatment, I'd just rank it as a lower priority than conditions that are potentially fatal.hallelujajordan wrote: »Not quite true . . The government will continue to cover any medication expenses greater than 1200 a year; In addition the government will give you a tax rebate on your doctors expenses
And my point was that LTI sufferers often get no more support than that which is offered to healthy people by the Government.hallelujajordan wrote: »And those being treated for infertility have to fork out an even greater expense just to get into the system. The amount the government cover is small by comparison and now they are looking to take that away too. To get to the point where you have had three rounds of IVF a couple will have already spent over 15,000 of their own money. Probably close to 25,000 when you add in the other treatments one tries prior to IVF. What the government are saying is that each new round of IVF will cost you personally more than 10,000 instead of 5000. They don't make this distinction for any other medical condition.
Ye can fork out a greater amount, you are not required to though and you are not required to do it every year which was my point. Infertile people (if they are lucky) might only require one round of IVF, people with LTI's will be paying substantial sums out of their pocket indefinitely.0 -
I agree completely. . Of course all expenditure within the health services should be listed and prioritised. . My only argument is that infertility should be on the list.And I don't agree with those posters. I feel that saying two conditions are equally worthy of treatment is equating them to an extent. Infertility is worthy of treatment, I'd just rank it as a lower priority than conditions that are potentially fatal.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I did not enjoy your comment about infertility sufferers having an 'unhealthy mental attitude'
Again you are taking the point I made out of context. I specified that anyone who fixates on one and only one thing as the only thing that will make them happy and their lives will otherwise be ruined unless they can have this one thing, as having an unhealthy mental attitude. And i stand by that.
Not all infertility sufferers will go on to have ruined lives because of this one thing, many of them will move on, accept fate and have a good life despite this horrible medical condition. It will never be something that they forget, and there will always be a measure of sadness associated with it, but they will move on - it is a normal behaviour of a mentally healthy human being to experience suffering and then move on from that suffering.
However, for those who feel that their lives completely ruined and they can never get over this, and there is no meaning to their lives, then in those cases I would suggest that they have an unhealthy mental attitude as in the grand scheme of things there are many areas of life that can bring joy and meaning to a person, and to fixate on just this one specific thing to the detriment of all others is not a healthy attitude to have.
To get back to my original point, which was in fact a generalisation, although you seem unable to comprehend that, any kind of mental fixation to the detriment of all other areas of life, is unhealthy. That is the point I was making. I have applied it to the specific case above, but my original point was aimed at the general case.0 -
"However, for those who feel that their lives completely ruined and they can never get over this, and there is no meaning to their lives, then in those cases I would suggest that they have an unhealthy mental attitude as in the grand scheme of things there are many areas of life that can bring joy and meaning to a person, and to fixate on just this one specific thing to the detriment of all others is not a healthy attitude to have."
I haven't read anyone on here who has said or intimated those sentiments.
I haven't actually met, spoken or known anyone online who is infertile who has said or intimated those sentiments.
People dealing with infertility are all around, living lives with quiet dignity.
Living a life that is different than it would be had they not learnt that they were infertile.
Yes infertility is a loss. A loss of being able to do one of the most fundamental things a human can do. That causes pain. What I've learnt as someone who is infertile is that the human has a great capacity for dealing with pain and joy, far beyond what I realised beforehand. It's important to understand that while we are living with infertility we are typically holding down jobs, caring for our family and friends, having a laugh, doing our bit to contribute to society, playing sports and working out on a regular basis how we're going to approach the rest of our lives.
For some of us the loss of this DPS might mean that we'll have to give up on the hope offered by IVF sooner than we had hoped.
But we'll cope. Humans are amazing at coping, truly we are.
We'll still fight the brave fight to protect any funding though, sure wouldn't we be crazy not to!
That said, I am at a loss to know where this perception is coming from and would really welcome clarification on this - is it from personal experience? Not from this thread though?
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username123 wrote: »Again you are taking the point I made out of context. I specified that anyone who fixates on one and only one thing as the only thing that will make them happy and their lives will otherwise be ruined unless they can have this one thing, as having an unhealthy mental attitude. And i stand by that.
Not all infertility sufferers will go on to have ruined lives because of this one thing, many of them will move on, accept fate and have a good life despite this horrible medical condition. It will never be something that they forget, and there will always be a measure of sadness associated with it, but they will move on - it is a normal behaviour of a mentally healthy human being to experience suffering and then move on from that suffering.
However, for those who feel that their lives completely ruined and they can never get over this, and there is no meaning to their lives, then in those cases I would suggest that they have an unhealthy mental attitude as in the grand scheme of things there are many areas of life that can bring joy and meaning to a person, and to fixate on just this one specific thing to the detriment of all others is not a healthy attitude to have.
To get back to my original point, which was in fact a generalisation, although you seem unable to comprehend that, any kind of mental fixation to the detriment of all other areas of life, is unhealthy. That is the point I was making. I have applied it to the specific case above, but my original point was aimed at the general case.
First, let me re-quote the original post so that none of the context is lost :hallelujajordan wrote:How can the medical inabiity of two people to carry out one of the most fundamental of human functions (to conceive naturally) not be considered a medical need . . . I'm truly baffled at how widespread this view is . .username123 wrote:I do not see it as a need because it is still possible to live a long, happy, healthy, fulfilled life without conceiving. You may feel that life is unfulfilled without conceiving, thats fine and I do not disagree with your entitlement to this opinion, but I do not feel the same way. I think that fixating on ANY one thing in life as the 'be all and end all' is an unhealthy mental attitude to have. Im not saying that its not a terribly sad thing, but there are many terribly sad things in life that all humans must deal with - that does not in any way, shape or form diminish the importance of this issue to some people, and I fully sympathise and empathise with anyone who suffers from infertility. But I do not believe, in these times when public money is scarce, that it is something that public money should be spent on.
We dont live in an ideal world, if we did Id like to see all fertility treatment, doctors, drugs, the lot - free. But thats not the world that we live in
Your substantive point was that infertility should not be considered a medical need because it is possible to live a happy, healthy life without conceiving. . . You then go on to say that those who cannot ignore their infertility and live a happy, healthy life; those who fixate on their infertility, were exhibiting an unhealthy mental attitude.
You may have used the nice 'sympathetic empathetic' words, but the jist of your message was "Get over it, we are not paying for it"
I think this is either incredibly patronising or just plain callous.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I think this is either incredibly patronising or just plain callous.
I dont see it as a medical need. Not in the same way that preserving life that is already in existance is a medical need. Whats wrong with holding that opinion? Oh wait, because it differs from yours its callous and patronising?
And once again, you seem unable to take my words in context and have drawn your own incorrect conclusions. I did not mention people fixating on their fertility, I stated people fixating on ANYTHING was an unhealthy mental attitude to have. Which is, I believe, a valid point.
On the subject of 'get over it, we are not paying for it' - may I remind you, they are your words, not mine. However, I dont believe public monies should be used to fund these medicines in the current ecomonic climate - as I have stated before.
Not that I dont believe these medicines are unworthy of being provided, or that infertility is unworthy of being treated, but in case you havent realised, we are in a recession and cutbacks have to be made. You yourself would rather deprive a sports club of a defibrillator (that might actually save a LIFE) to save money, as you have stated on this thread - did I label you callous for doing so? No I did not - please refrain from making personal comments of that nature to me again - simply for stating my opinion - I did not make any personal comments about you or your opinions.0 -
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Rainbowrapids wrote: »"However, for those who feel that their lives completely ruined and they can never get over this, and there is no meaning to their lives, then in those cases I would suggest that they have an unhealthy mental attitude as in the grand scheme of things there are many areas of life that can bring joy and meaning to a person, and to fixate on just this one specific thing to the detriment of all others is not a healthy attitude to have."
I haven't read anyone on here who has said or intimated those sentiments.
Rainbowrapids, my comments were in response to the post below where hallelujajordan indictated that it was not possible for infertility sufferers to live a long, happy, healthy and fulfilled life without conceiving. I disagreed with this point (because of the testimony presented on this thread) which led me to my quote above.hallelujajordan wrote: »I'm sure its possible for YOU to live a long, happy, healthy and fulfilled life without conceiving . . . The personal testimony of others on this forum (and all around you in society if you look closely enough) should teach you that its not possible for everyone . . .
You are quite correct, everyone else on this thread has been dignified in presenting their opinion and personal experience.0
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