College Green - the post mortem

Macha

howiya wrote: »

Weirs was another listed in the IT

Note how it is all the up-market retail shops involved.

Undoubtedly many of their customers drive in but I'm sure their reduced sales have nothing to do with the recession...

antoinolachtnai

bmaxi wrote: »

Is not Joe Public, in the form of Central government, a major source of income for Dublin City?

it is for sure, but Dublin City Council has no control whatsoever over how much it gets from central government. It can manage its income from rates to some degree by providing an attractive environment for business.

bmaxi

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

it is for sure, but Dublin City Council has no control whatsoever over how much it gets from central government. It can manage its income from rates to some degree by providing an attractive environment for business.

I would hazard that income from Central Government is significantly more than that from ratepayers and the contribution from those objecting to the bus gate is an insignificant portion of the total. There is also a return, in the form of services, to the ratepayer.
I'm not saying that ratepayers should not have a say rather that their influence is disproportionate.

Macha

bmaxi wrote: »

I would hazard that income from Central Government is significantly more than that from ratepayers and the contribution from those objecting to the bus gate is an insignificant portion of the total.

70% of local government funds come from central government.

A big problem in and of itself, it be honest.

AlekSmart

The 1978/79 removal of Domestic Rates and Motor Taxation comes back to bite us all.
The old quote springs to mind regarding public transport in Ireland.

In Europe,the Taxpayer pays.
In the UK,The passenger pays.
In Ireland,Nobody pays.

bmaxi

taconnol wrote: »

70% of local government funds come from central government.

A big problem in and of itself, it be honest.

Just one more example of FF fiscal lunacy.

Metrobest

AMontague wrote: »

I have backed Bus Gate since it was first proposed at the City Council, and I've been working hard to try to save the Bus Gate since it came into operation on July 27th. When I was elected Chair of Dublin City Council's traffic committee this summer there was already a full-scale campaign against the Bus Gate being waged by some traders, who were blaming the Bus Gate for a significant reduction in their footfall.

There weren't enough voices being heard in favour of the Bus Gate, but I was sure that there were many people benefitting from the new traffic regime and I wanted to make sure their voices were heard. In the last 6 weeks, I've been in contact with Dublin Bus, the Dublin Cycling Campaign, environmental officers from various student unions, Trinity Students and other interested stakeholders. I encouraged these groups to get their side of the argument out into the public domain.

I also thought it was fair to talk to representatives of the traders, so I've met with a variety of Business Representative organisations and with individual traders from the Grafton Street and Dame Street area.

The original vote for Bus Gate in the City Council was a very close run thing. We won that vote by 15 to 13 in May. However, I suspect that the traders successfully managed to shift opinions and persuaded many councillors that the Bus Gate was costing jobs. As more facts and figures have emerged, it became easier to counteract that opinion and the strength and the passion of those in favour of the Bus Gate has moved some councillors back in support of the Bus Gate.

However, as we head into the vote in the Council meeting on Monday, I know that some councillors were looking to have the Bus Gate removed entirely. If there was a straight vote on those for and against the Bus Gate - I think it would be too close to call. I'm prepared to vote for the compromise put forward by the manager, in order that we don't lose everything. At least with the compromise we keep Bus Gate in the morning and have it returned in January. At the meeting on Monday, I will be looking for reassurances from the City Manager that the Gate will re-open fully in January. If I believe that the proposal is an attempt to quietly bury the Bus Gate, I won't support it.

I know many people will view my decision to back the compromise as the wrong way to go, but in my opinion it is the least risky way to ensure that we have Bus Gate in 2010.

Cllr Andrew Montague

The traders have won the media war up till now. Every Irish newspaper (with the honorable exception of the Sunday Times) has concentrated only on the negative aspects of the Gate from a drivers' perspective. The story has been presented by the Irish media as "drivers are being made to suffer" instead of "tens of thousands of commuters get an extra 2 hours per week to spend with their loved ones" (based on a 12 minute journey time saving per commute).

Andrew, you should offer to write an opinion piece for The Irish Times extolling the virtues of Dublin Bikes and the Gate, focusing on the positive benefits these initiatives bring to the silent majority. If not an opinion piece, a long letter. Mention that a city center of Dublin free of congestion will benefit economically in the long run, as more people will visit and enjoy the pleasant space. College Green is one of the finest civic spaces in Europe which should be treated as such - not as a car park. Callers should complain to Joe Duffy that the removal of the gate has cost them 2 hours per week in time stuck in traffic. The facebook group should also be viral - aim for 100,000 members by the end of year. Imagine the story in The Irish Times "100,000 Dubliners join group to save bus gate". Would the politicians have the courage to vote down a gate 100,000 wanted? I doubt it.

Saving the Bus Gate will be no easy task as so many powerful interests are against it. Money talks, but sometimes a valid argument talks even louder. You need to get your message out there because it's not being heard in the places that matter - the influential media like RTE and The Irish Times. My advice is to expose the lies and half truths that the traders are putting out. The voice of the silent majority needs and deserves to be heard.

gurramok

I was opposed to the Bus Gate idea based on traffic management mostly as the new bridge was not opened yet hence creating mayhem for not just cars but buses elsewhere despite it benefiting a few bus routes!

And yes i think the traders are exaggerating, they are been hammered by the recession rather than the bus gate, less people have money in their pockets to buy in expensive shops like on Grafton st.

The DCC need the money take from cars parking on the street/car parks. This went down and the public transport was supposed to fill the transport option for shoppers but where would DCC get the lost revenue from? It ain't from businesses struggling!

Once that bridge is opened, bring back the bus gate. Less congestion for all will encourage people to move around but to get them to spend in an expensive shopping district will be very hard in a recession.

AMontague

taconnol wrote: »

70% of local government funds come from central government.

That may be true of other councils, but central government fund only 25% of Dublin City Council's budget.

Macha

AMontague wrote: »

That may be true of other councils, but central government fund only 25% of Dublin City Council's budget.

Yes, my figure is a general one.

Might explain Dermot Lacey's disappointing comments about Gormley's involvement. God forbid a TD express concern about an issue that affects his constituency.

vandermeyde

Given that Sales will pick up temporarily given the Christmas season is nearly upon us, I hope that this natural pickup is not used as another stick to beat the bus gate with.

I thought it was ironic to hear FG's Paschal Donohue speaking of his parties new policy document being a means to dramatically reduce passenger waiting times for buses whilst at the same time FG councillors were voting in favour of a measure which is going to increase passenger waiting times.

we really don't have a clue in this country.

Euro_Kraut

vandermeyde wrote: »

Given that Sales will pick up temporarily given the Christmas season is nearly upon us, I hope that this natural pickup is not used as another stick to beat the bus gate with.

And you can be sure it will happen next Christmas too. And maybe in the run up to Easter or prehaps St Patricks, Halloween etc. Basically the precedent has been set. You can be sure that the 'Christmas run-in' will get earlier and earlier each year. As is stands 8 weeks is an obscene time frame for 'Christmas', No doubt it will get longer.

You deride FG for backing this. To be honest I would expect that of them. What is crazy is the Ireland centre left party backed them up. I always though Labour would be the party of Public Transport and cyclists. Turns out they are not.

EDIT: You can read Labour's ideas for improving congestion in Dublin City here: http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/getting_dublin_moving_nov06.pdf. It is completely at odds with the decision its councilors took this week. They had the votes to face down FG on this. They choose to side with car park owners instead of the general public. Sad day for Labour politics.

dereko1969

The Mandate Union backed the removal of the bus gate supporting the bosses of their members, Mandate contributes to Labour's coffers, tail wagging the dog!

gurramok

Here's Amiens St southbound this evening. Buses crawling. The cause, the right hand turn further down onto Georges Quay.
Took about 15-20min to get down from junction with Portand Row. Took 15min itself to get off Portland row onto Amiens st itself, worst ever in both directions on Portland Row.
Mate was stuck on Gardiner st at same time who said it was all the way back to Dorset st and that was southbound!.(5:30pm to 6pm window)




And Pearse st northbound(opp side of st in photo, string of vehicle lights)

HydeRoad

Not to worry, Dublin City Council have a PLAN.

They are going to provide tons of free on street parking for the Christmas period, so you will be able to drive your car in and park for free, instead of sitting in nasty, slow buses, stuck in traffic.

It's a whizz, why didn't somebody think of it before?

monument

Dermot Lacey has posted the following on the Busgate Facebook group.

Dermot Lacey I have only seen this site and thought it fair that I should put the case for the decision we made.I have tried to explain this on other sites as to why we considered it best in the long term to give space to the request from both Traders and the Trade Union Mandate that represents a lot or retail staff.

The role of a Public Representative - particularly in the very pragmatic and practical area of Local Government - is to try and reflect the overall best approach and get on with the job.

In this instance that is what we tried to do. At all time the value of Busgate was adhered to and recognized. At all times too we insisted that the Busgate when reinstated would be a permanent feature of life in Dublin - that continues to be the case and Busgate will be reinstated from January 15th.

When Busgate was brought in BY LABOUR COUNCILLORS we set a trial period of six months to be followed by a review.

During the course of that review an issue was raised by Traders and the Trade Union that the presence of Busgate would seriously impede Christmas trading. Most of us did not accept that view but we were not prepared to risk the Dublin economy and possible job losses to impose our view when we knew we would be reinstaing the Busgate permanently after Christmas. A key factor then would also be the fact that the Macken Street Bridge would be open.

A reasonable point has been made as to whether this temporary suspension will set a precedent for next year. in my view it will not. Two factors that did exist this year will not next year; 1) the relative newness of the scheme and some signage issues and 2) the opening of the new Macken Street Bridge.

At all times we tried to do what we believed to be right in the interests of Dublin and Dubliners.

As anyone who knows me will attest I have no difficulty in arguing my point of view on issues and taking a stand when I believe something to be right irrespective of its popularity or not. The seriosuly disappointing and indeed hurtful aspect to elements of this thread has been that some people seem not to accept the integrity and honesty of our decison making process. I am not asking anyone to agree with is - simply that you accept that we adopted a position honestly and with integrity.

Personally i look forward to January 15th and cyclying either my own bike or a dublinbike through College Green once again.

Busgate is a Labour victory in Dublin that will ove long after this Christmas we should celebrate that fact.

[Posted on Facebook "4 hours ago"]

gurramok

HydeRoad wrote: »

Not to worry, Dublin City Council have a PLAN.

They are going to provide tons of free on street parking for the Christmas period, so you will be able to drive your car in and park for free, instead of sitting in nasty, slow buses, stuck in traffic.

It's a whizz, why didn't somebody think of it before?

Err, i was not shopping? And i don't shop by car as I live near town.

Those pics above are of rush hour, that happens every day since the bus gate was opened, affecting buses too. Roll on Dec10th when that bridge will be opened.

They should only have closed the bus gate from Nov 18th till Dec 10th. But hey, this is incompetent DCC we see here.

Once then, there is no excuse to NOT re-open the bus gate then as traffic management should be hell of alot of better. The issue of evening BT shopping is a non-issue as traffic does be cleared well by then, their real problem is the recession.

D'Peoples Voice

taconnol wrote: »

Yes, my figure is a general one.

Might explain Dermot Lacey's disappointing comments about Gormley's involvement. God forbid a TD express concern about an issue that affects his constituency.

AAAAAHHHHH, gormley is a national legislator, he has NO business getting involved in Local Government, the bollox like all others in Dail Eireann should stick to pasing legislation, not waste time duplicating the work of local councillors at my expense.

markpb

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

AAAAAHHHHH, gormley is a national legislator, he has NO business getting involved in Local Government

Isn't he Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government?

D'Peoples Voice

markpb wrote: »

Isn't he Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government?

yeah just as he gets involved in every traffic related argument caused by local council around the country.
What exactly has he had to say about old or incorrect or stupid road signs being erected around the non-national road network, no no doubt he would say nothing on that, he would say its the Minister for Transport problem.
I'm sick of TDs just speaking up on things so as to get press coverage and to hell with the time and energy put in by people that made the decision.

Macha

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

AAAAAHHHHH, gormley is a national legislator, he has NO business getting involved in Local Government, the bollox like all others in Dail Eireann should stick to pasing legislation, not waste time duplicating the work of local councillors at my expense.

Sorry but as a representative of the Dublin South East constituency, he has the right to comment on an issue that impacts on that constituency. End of.

"Your expense"? What absolute rubbish.

D'Peoples Voice

taconnol wrote: »

Sorry but as a representative of the Dublin South East constituency, he has the right to comment on an issue that impacts on that constituency. End of.

"Your expense"? What absolute rubbish.

The same reason why European Ministers do not get involved in Irish Politics, because they realise thats what Irish politicans are elected for. In the US once you are appointed as a Secretary of a Department, you must give up your Senater or Congressman role, because of a conflict of interests.
In Ireland we never admit we have conflicts of interests!

Look its quite simple, we pay Gormley to write/amend legislation not to spend time getting involved in the working of democratically elected local government. Any time spent getting involved in the workings of democratically elected local government is time lost he could be spending on improving legislation for the country.
If its not directly related to legislation, and its introduced by the democratically elected local government, don't get involved.