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College Green - the post mortem

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    Naas - East Wall (I commute outside rush hour)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,389 ✭✭✭markpb


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Naas - East Wall (I commute outside rush hour)

    Do you think that people who live and work in Dublin and are able to make their trip using public transport should be delayed because of people who live 35km outside of Dublin? Ignore for a minute the problems with our public transport and house prices.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    Maceface's commute does raise another issue - the complete lack of any park and ride sites to transfer to the BUS!!

    There is only one such official site in Dublin and that is at the junction of Grange Road and Nutgrove Avenue in Rathfarnham.

    If there was somewhere Maceface could park along the 151 bus route in the Clondalkin/Long Mile areas then they would have a direct link from their car to the East Wall!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭techdiver


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Naas - East Wall (I commute outside rush hour)

    Can you not get the train from Sallins?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    markpb wrote: »
    Do you think that people who live and work in Dublin and are able to make their trip using public transport should be delayed because of people who live 35km outside of Dublin? Ignore for a minute the problems with our public transport and house prices.

    Of course not , but we have to come to some sort of balance and consider that for whatever reason, there are people who don't have access to public transport or by making use of it doubles or triples a journey time.

    BTW: I think the bus coridor is a great idea, but I think it could be adapted slightly - allow motorbikes and any car with 3 or more passengers to use it.

    Besides this aswell - if the bus system was not so stupid where almost every bus ends up in the city center, then we may not have this problem.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,389 ✭✭✭markpb


    MaceFace wrote: »
    BTW: I think the bus coridor is a great idea, but I think it could be adapted slightly - allow motorbikes and any car with 3 or more passengers to use it.

    I agree about motorbikes but not about car pooling - it would require Gardai to enforce it and possibly to stop cars to inspect them. There's also the question about the benefits of carpooling - studies done in America indicate that most people in car pool lanes were carpooling before the lanes were there and there was only a minor take-up because of them. There were also incidents of people putting scarecrows in the car to make it look to outsiders like it was full of passengers :) As an example, who would you car pool with?
    Besides this aswell - if the bus system was not so stupid where almost every bus ends up in the city center, then we may not have this problem.

    The reason most buses didn't cross the city was because the congestion in the city centre made them unreliable. The 16/16A are prime examples - anyone waiting the 'other' side has no idea how long the bus will take to get to them. Hopefully now that the gate is in operation, DB will take a look at their routes and see what can be done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,083 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    MaceFace wrote: »
    BTW: I think the bus coridor is a great idea, but I think it could be adapted slightly - allow motorbikes and any car with 3 or more passengers to use it.

    There's no way a carpooling system would be enforceable in this country. We can't even enforce the easily enforceable laws.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭crocro


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Some people don't have the luxury of public transport unless they park in the Red Cow park (and pay) and ride and then get a luas and a bus on top of that.

    What I wouldn't give to be able to get a bus to work!!!
    My current commute:
    Drive - 40 mins
    Public Transport - 1 hour 25mins (and have to work to the CIE schedule, not mine)
    what about Bus eireann route 126 - approx 1hr naas-docklands? Little walk good for your heart.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    I think Carpooling is a great idea. When I was in Oz, cars used to stop at the bus stop I was at to pick up anyone who wanted a lift so they could use the car pool lane.

    Besides this, carpooling should not just be seen from the point of people sharing cars, but making use of the space we have on the roads that are very seldom used (i.e. bus lanes).

    Its very easy to enforce if we wanted to - 2 penalty points if your caught and fines to pay the extra Gardai it would take to enforce it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Bee


    markpb wrote: »
    You're probably right but I wouldn't be overly worried - things will settle down, people will find new routes or make unnecessary journeys less often or just later on in the day. People think that less roads means more congestion for existing traffic but it's not that simple - traffic isn't a constant - it adapts to the road capacity available to it.

    There is now serious extra congestion from con colbert rd and the quays due to the ill thought out and seriously stupid closing to morning and evening traffic via College Green

    The idiots and non professional "Traffic Engineers" in Dublin City council who designed this should be sacked.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Bee


    techdiver wrote: »
    Unfortunately the big pictures rules here. Many people who use cars in the city do so because the choose to do so. I have had many people say to me that they have no choice and have to drive. Many of these live within walking distance of public transport and are too lazy to walk there.

    You are obviously unfamiliar with numerous reports that show the opposite
    In a recession to increase congestion for all road users around the city to facilitate College Green with no appreciable results is idiotic


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭crocro


    I guess the buses are going faster. That was the idea Slower car traffic should push some people to switch to buses.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    MaceFace wrote: »
    I think Carpooling is a great idea. When I was in Oz, cars used to stop at the bus stop I was at to pick up anyone who wanted a lift so they could use the car pool lane.

    Besides this, carpooling should not just be seen from the point of people sharing cars, but making use of the space we have on the roads that are very seldom used (i.e. bus lanes).

    Its very easy to enforce if we wanted to - 2 penalty points if your caught and fines to pay the extra Gardai it would take to enforce it!

    So you think that pulling into a BUS stop in your CAR, blocking the bus stop for a few moments, so that you can take bus passengers, either for free or for reward, it's immaterial, depriving the bus company of operating revenue, so that costs go up, purely for the selfish purpose of allowing yourself free use of the BUS lanes, thus adding another CAR to the congestion, pushing the BUS even further back in the traffic queue, pushing operating costs up even further, delaying BUS passengers even more, encouraging even further private CAR use, an ever increasing circle, is a GOOD thing?

    Methinks your motivations are purely selfish, and not for the greater good at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    HydeRoad wrote: »
    So you think that pulling into a BUS stop in your CAR, blocking the bus stop for a few moments, so that you can take bus passengers, either for free or for reward, it's immaterial, depriving the bus company of operating revenue, so that costs go up, purely for the selfish purpose of allowing yourself free use of the BUS lanes, thus adding another CAR to the congestion, pushing the BUS even further back in the traffic queue, pushing operating costs up even further, delaying BUS passengers even more, encouraging even further private CAR use, an ever increasing circle, is a GOOD thing?

    Methinks your motivations are purely selfish, and not for the greater good at all.

    Will you calm down with your black and white attitude - I never said I thought pulling into a bus stop was a good idea. I said thats what I saw them do every day in Oz.
    I am not getting in an argument about buses vs cars as that is a different subject.

    Why are they called bus lanes - call them "high occupancy lanes" or something - for use by buses, taxis, motorbikes, cars with 4 or more people.

    The fact are that not everyone has the luxury of making use of public transport. The fact is that as a result of removing road space for cars, it is resulting in congestion. The fact is most of these "bus lanes" are empty most of the time.

    Example: Long Mile Road - bus lane the whole way on the way out and I rarely see a bus on it - but yet the cars can be backed up all the way from the N7 to the Drimnagh road. Reason: Cars can't get through the lights at Walkinstown Ave junction (where EP Mooney is) as there is only one lane.
    If the bus lane were to end 10 meters before the lights, you would have twice the amount of traffic getting through the juntion and therefore congestion would be lessened all the way back to the Crumlin road at times!

    Its about "Getting Dublin Moving" - well lets do it with a bit of thinking rather than the carrot and stick approach (without the carrot) that is currently being employed by those thinking these decisions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Bee wrote: »
    You are obviously unfamiliar with numerous reports that show the opposite
    In a recession to increase congestion for all road users around the city to facilitate College Green with no appreciable results is idiotic

    I have lived in 5 different areas of Dublin both north side and south side and never had to use a car to get to work. I also commuted from the midlands to Dublin on numerous occasions and once again never had to use a car to get to work. People who say otherwise are making excuses for being lazy and unwilling to use public transport.

    The priority should always be public transport like it or not. The changes to the college green corridor was to improve public transport flow though that area only, it was not an attempt to aid traffic congestion as a whole. It has done it's job as designed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,389 ✭✭✭markpb


    MaceFace wrote: »
    The fact are that not everyone has the luxury of making use of public transport. The fact is that as a result of removing road space for cars, it is resulting in congestion.

    People who live in cities, by and large, have the use of public transport. You can't then turn around and give that public transport second priority to people who choose to live outside the city so they can drive in.
    The fact is most of these "bus lanes" are empty most of the time. Example: Long Mile Road - bus lane the whole way on the way out and I rarely see a bus on it - but yet the cars can be backed up all the way from the N7 to the Drimnagh road.

    Bus lanes are meant to be empty - if they were full, the buses wouldn't be moving and wouldn't be providing a good level of service. Each bus can carry around 100 people which is why overall throughput on many of Dublin's arteries *increased* when a lane was closed to private vehicles. Less cars conclusively meant more people.
    If the bus lane were to end 10 meters before the lights, you would have twice the amount of traffic getting through the juntion and therefore congestion would be lessened all the way back to the Crumlin road at times!

    Many of Dublin's bus lanes are exactly like the solution you describe and yet QBN are actively removing them because it blocks buses and causes conflicts while cars change lanes twice (once before the junction and once after). The very act of cars changing lanes causes more delays than the extra road space helps.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    Bus lanes are meant to be empty - if they were full, the buses wouldn't be moving and wouldn't be providing a good level of service. Each bus can carry around 100 people which is why overall throughput on many of Dublin's arteries *increased* when a lane was closed to private vehicles. Less cars conclusively meant more people.

    I am not advocating opening bus lanes to all traffic but those that could be considered "high occupancy non public transport vehicles" - specifically cars with 4 or more people.
    I would guess that >90% of cars during rush hour have 1-2 people in them. 98% of the bus lanes outside the immediate city center are empty most of the time.
    All I am saying is that it will work in most cases. For those that it doesn't you keep them as "bus lanes", and for those that it does, you call them "carpooling lanes".

    As for your comment about ending the bus lane before the junction - I am not aware of any that are there to aid throughput, but only aware of some that are there to allow cars to turn left as otherwise they could not.

    Most of all - we need better enforcement of the rules already there!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Those bus lanes should end sooner where there are junctions to turn left OR change the traffic light sequence to suit all.

    Case in mind, both sides of Dorset st. The left turn onto Whitworth Rd and the left turn onto Belvedere Rd. Same from Prospect Rd onto Whitworth Rd.

    What happens is that when left turn light is red and straight ahead is green, it all builds up and lanes are blocked for both buses and cars as we know cars are not allowed in the bus lane which itself goes too far towards the junction. This happens even when there are no pedestrians around to press that magic button.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    For info the 151 uses the Long Mile Road bus lane and as you can see from the timetable it operates every 10-15 minutes throughout the day.

    http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/151/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Will you calm down with your black and white attitude - I never said I thought pulling into a bus stop was a good idea. I said thats what I saw them do every day in Oz.

    But you seem to favour it in Oz, as if such a thing might work here. I generally look at all sides of an argument, and long ago considered the carpooling argument, and came to an absolute, black and white conclusion, that I do not favour carpooling lanes under any circumstance.

    They would contribute nothing to anyone except a small proportion of private motorists, and then only to the detriment of everyone else. Carpooling lanes would be unpoliceable. You suggest it would be easy. I suggest it would be impossible. Carpooling lanes would only encourage the already increasing lack of regard for bus lanes by private motorists, many of whom will not queue correctly if they see other cars passing them on the inside. You surely do not advocate a state salaried Garda on stance duty at every bus lane to prosecute offenders? What would the Garda do? Stop the offending car in front of a queue of buses? Look how many Gardai it takes just to police the College Green bus gate, and the difficulty they have pulling in hordes of offending private motorists.

    But the most important consideration is the effect on the bus service. Dublin's bus service is wholly inadequate, and the two greatest causes of that are the antiquated fare collection system, which is a seperate issue, and the scrappy and ill designed bus lane network. The bus lanes as they are, are grossly inefficient, but with very little inconvenience to other road users, by simple tweaks of the system that any regular bus driver could point out, could almost guarantee Dublin the bus service it deserves. The worst suggestion that could possibly be made is any suggestion to congest the buses further. If you are seriously suggesting that, you may as well abandon the bus lane network altogether and return it to a free for all.

    What you are suggesting does not work, I have experience of it, and while I welcome the debate, and any argument that might open my mind to it again, your argument does not convince. All I see is a private motorist trying to argue, weakly, a slight of hand way for him to have a traffic lane to himself, at the expense of too many others.

    I would see this bus gate as a faltering way to ease the idea of the complete restriction of College Green at some future date. The problem is that no politician has the strength of character to pull off such a feat. These things cause a huge fuss initially, but after a surprisingly short time people get used to the new arrangements, provided they are planned properly in advance. You cannot selectively ban motorists, it's all or nothing.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭cast_iron


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Most of all - we need better enforcement of the rules already there!
    Quite true.

    Though a couple of people above have asked you about possible alternatives to your incredible 2 hours and 5 mins commute form Naas to East Wall, outside rush hour and (unless I've missed something) you've not responded.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    Maceface, you are aware that Bus Eireann route 126 operates to Docklands Rail Station on Sherriff Street taking 50 minutes in the off-peak from Naas? That is not a million miles from East Wall.

    Return services are from beside Connolly LUAS stop.

    http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1251473862-126.pdf


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    MaceFace wrote: »
    All I am saying is that it will work in most cases.

    Sorry MaceFace, not trying to 'get' at you, just trying to vouch for a particularly strong conviction of mine against carpooling lanes. Here's why:

    Let's say we advertise that a car with four adults can use the bus lane. Let's say we have a low take up on the offer, and ten cars on a road take four adults each. That's forty adults, thirty of whom have left their cars at home. That's thirty less cars on the road. So those ten carpooling cars are helping the traffic volume for all the other private motorists, who will probably save a change of lights or two. However that is now ten cars in front of the buses at the traffic lights, pushing the buses well back in the queue, and probably missing them a turn of the lights or two. SO while there is a benefit to all the cars, there is a consequential detriment to the bus passengers.

    As the bus slows down in traffic, a small number of passengers get fed up sitting at red lights, and begin to drive themselves. So the bus loses some passengers, and loses valuable operating revenue, and the costs go up. In the meantime, a few more cars are added to the general traffic flow to replace the carpooling cars. Net result, traffic flow back to normal, except buses are now noticeably delayed. Forty people actually benefit by carpooling. But there are a lot more than forty people on the buses that are delayed.

    Now let's say there is a greater take up of carpooling. Let's say a third of all cars. Now the benefit to the carpoolers is lessened, as the bus lane fills up with more cars. The main traffic flow frees up even more though, and the queue at the end of the bus lane is two thirds what is in the main traffic lane. Now the buses are going to suffer seriously, and the timetable and reliability goes right out the window.

    Let's say there is a majority take up of carpooling. Now the dynamics change, to the point that there are so many cars carpooling, that the point of allowing them use the bus lane is null and void, because both lanes will carry as many cars. But the buses are now pushed right back to the speed of the general traffic flow, at which point the bus lane is non existant, and the buses may as well use either lane. The benefit of less cars on the road through carpooling is lost, as passengers desert the buses in droves, and return to cars. The bus operators are now in serious trouble too, as their revenues drop below what will viably keep the service running at all.

    The decision therefore is whether to have bus lanes, and get the buses moving, or whether to abandon bus lanes altogether and leave the whole road open to all. Opening the bus lanes to carpoolers eventually results in the latter, so in order to have bus lanes at all, and justify them, they must remain for buses only.

    This is all slightly OT to the original, but relevant, because the same argument applies to bus gates as to bus lanes, and why half measures do not work. It has to be all or nothing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭trellheim


    The Guards weren't there when I cycled through at about 0915 on Wednesday, with the net effect there were loads of "wrong" vehicles going through.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    trellheim wrote: »
    The Guards weren't there when I cycled through at about 0915 on Wednesday, with the net effect there were loads of "wrong" vehicles going through.

    I have to admit I was wrong. In an earlier post I gave it a month, it didn't even make that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 706 ✭✭✭the boss of me


    I went through it yesterday at 5.30 pm and there were two motorcycle Gardai giving out tickets. As the gardai were processing offending drivers, many others slipped through undetected.
    I can't speak for the mornings but the journey times in the evenings have improved significantly. Westmoreland St. to OConnell Bridge in particular has seen a major improvement. The next few weeks should be interesting as the schools and colleges reopen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭confused-dazed


    techdiver wrote: »
    Obviously not a statement by a bus user on the route. It is designed to improve the bus flow through college green and not to ease traffic for car users who choose to drive as opposed to use public transport. I think it has been a great success!
    it worked when the guards were there, as soon as they were taken off the bus gate full time both ways then private cars started going around college green again. one of the evenings i counted over 20 cars that shouldn't have even been there i.e. going around college gree onto west st.
    buses are getting around alot quicker, but it's like bus lanes. proper lack of enforcement. as i said before whats needed are cameras similar to the ones used at the M50 but these would be switched on between 7-10 and 4-7 both ways.then an automatic fine is sent out in the post wth no leave to appeal the decision.basically 4 out of every 5 cars are getting through even with the guards there some evenings.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    HydeRoad wrote: »
    They would contribute nothing to anyone except a small proportion of private motorists, and then only to the detriment of everyone else.
    Wrong - carpooling would benefit all traffic as it allows some cars to use parts of the road that are mostly unused. That frees up the congested roads by some amount which benefits the likes of me.
    HydeRoad wrote: »
    Carpooling lanes would be unpoliceable. You suggest it would be easy. I suggest it would be impossible. Carpooling lanes would only encourage the already increasing lack of regard for bus lanes by private motorists, many of whom will not queue correctly if they see other cars passing them on the inside. You surely do not advocate a state salaried Garda on stance duty at every bus lane to prosecute offenders? What would the Garda do? Stop the offending car in front of a queue of buses? Look how many Gardai it takes just to police the College Green bus gate, and the difficulty they have pulling in hordes of offending private motorists.
    That is exactly what I am saying. You don't need a fleet of Gardai policing the same lanes every morning and if you do. Here is an easy solution: 2 points for using the bus lane with a hefty fine (€500).
    I don't think there is a specific penalty point offense for using a Bus Lane. Bring one in, zap 500 in the first week (I personally see >50 every week on the Long Mile Road). Before long, people will get the message.
    HydeRoad wrote: »
    All I see is a private motorist trying to argue, weakly, a slight of hand way for him to have a traffic lane to himself, at the expense of too many others.
    1 - I could not use the bus lane as I drive alone.
    2 - The current bus lane system is ridiculous - vast stretches of road that are empty while cars are in traffic jams along side.
    I am not saying every bus lane should be a carpooling lane, but I think the government jumped on some sort of crusade to allow them to come out with headline figures of saying things like - now we have an extra 500km of bus lanes to keep Dublin moving, rather than actually seeing if it makes sense to have it.
    HydeRoad wrote: »
    You cannot selectively ban motorists, it's all or nothing.
    Of course you can. They do it in other countries, so why not here? All we need is proper enforcement.
    cast_iron wrote: »
    Quite true.

    Though a couple of people above have asked you about possible alternatives to your incredible 2 hours and 5 mins commute form Naas to East Wall, outside rush hour and (unless I've missed something) you've not responded.
    ?????
    From my original post:
    My current commute:
    Drive - 40 mins
    Public Transport - 1 hour 25mins (and have to work to the CIE schedule, not mine)
    (I switched to driving last year and have not looked back).
    KC61 wrote: »
    Maceface, you are aware that Bus Eireann route 126 operates to Docklands Rail Station on Sherriff Street taking 50 minutes in the off-peak from Naas? That is not a million miles from East Wall.

    Return services are from beside Connolly LUAS stop.

    http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1251473862-126.pdf
    Which would mean a 20 minute walk either end which is lovely in the sunshine but not as attractive in Ireland!
    HydeRoad wrote: »
    The bus operators are now in serious trouble too, as their revenues drop below what will viably keep the service running at all.
    Again, if I use the example of Australia - their fares are much higher than here. We need increased fares for our public transport.
    For €20 a week I can get a ticket that will allow me to get a train from Sallins to Heuston, a Luas or bus to Connolly and a Dart to anywhere in the city. I can get this through taxsavers.ie which will push the price to me down to about €10.
    Considering my drive costs me about €3.50 each way in petrol alone, I still see it much worthwhile.

    So, what I think we need is less subsidies to the bus operators (although we need some), allowing us to look at best practices of other countries and try them here (turn on left, carpooling), and proper enforcement with proper penalties.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,083 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Wrong - carpooling would benefit all traffic as it allows some cars to use parts of the road that are mostly unused. That frees up the congested roads by some amount which benefits the likes of me.

    Well aside from the fact that most people care about benefiting as many people as possible and not just you, traffic has a tendency to fill available road space. The main problem is at the bottlenecks where two lanes merge back into one and the like. The sole advantage of bus lanes tends to be that they allow buses to "skip the queue". Having two lanes full of car traffic doesn't tend to benefit anyone.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    Stark wrote: »
    Well aside from the fact that most people care about benefiting as many people as possible and not just you, traffic has a tendency to fill available road space. The main problem is at the bottlenecks where two lanes merge back into one and the like. The sole advantage of bus lanes tends to be that they allow buses to "skip the queue". Having two lanes full of car traffic doesn't tend to benefit anyone.
    Who is talking about 2 lanes full of traffic? I am saying there are plenty of bus lanes that could be better utilitised.

    There are loads of bus lanes I can think are totally useless and there are quite a few that should be better utilised - meaning come up with some sort of system that allows the road space to be used when buses are not there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Who is talking about 2 lanes full of traffic? I am saying there are plenty of bus lanes that could be better utilitised.

    There are loads of bus lanes I can think are totally useless and there are quite a few that should be better utilised - meaning come up with some sort of system that allows the road space to be used when buses are not there.

    Your posts are becoming surreal now. You want 'some sort of system' that allows the bus lane to be used by cars when the buses are not there. So when the bus arrives, the bus lane will magically empty of cars, and when the bus has gone, it fills up with cars again? It'd take a book to even try to explain the fallacies in your thinking.

    Elsewhere, you want to put up the bus fares. You really have it in for buses. There's nothing wrong with having that point of view. But an anti bus point of view is best served by advocating the removal of all bus lanes. If you believe bus lanes should be got rid of altogether, that's a valid argument, even if I argue the opposite. But you want to keep the bus lanes, yet fill them with cars. That doesn't make sense at all, from any side of the fence.

    Any bus lanes that are useless, and there are many, are generally useless through rotten design. There are quite a few instances where it is quicker and safer for the bus driver NOT to use the bus lane provided. But you generally have to BE a bus driver to understand the logic.

    As for Dublin Bus, well if you gave them the entire rights over the city and banned everything else, they would still manage to screw things up. I'd love to see better bus lanes, and somebody OTHER than Dublin Bus provide the bus services...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    HydeRoad wrote: »
    Your posts are becoming surreal now. You want 'some sort of system' that allows the bus lane to be used by cars when the buses are not there. So when the bus arrives, the bus lane will magically empty of cars, and when the bus has gone, it fills up with cars again? It'd take a book to even try to explain the fallacies in your thinking.

    Ok, fine, your right - the system we have in this country is just brilliant. How about you stop misquoting and taking things out of context and instead of just shooting down ideas of how we can improve congestion, come up with some ideas yourself.

    If you care to even think about what I am saying, you would see that I am not anti-bus or anti-public transport.

    There are many bus lanes that are completly empty 99% of the time. I am saying quite simply that surely there has to be a way that we can make use of this space.

    Here is another idea - give buses a device like the LUAS that allows them to have priorities at certain junctions.
    Whats your problem with this suggestion HydePark - surely you have one.:confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    You just don't seem to understand, that in order for a bus lane to be effective, it has to be empty. What good is a bus lane at all if there are going to be cars in front of the bus? I don't see your suggestion helping congestion, I only see it increasing congestion.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Here is another idea - give buses a device like the LUAS that allows them to have priorities at certain junctions.

    This was tried in Cork and failed. You need real bus lanes and cars must be kept out of them, it is bad enough that Taxis are allowed in them and that many drivers sneak into them.

    The reality is that over time cars will increasingly be discouraged from going into the city and increasingly priority given to public transport. Get use to it, it is the only way a city of the size of Dublin can be made to work.

    The future is more bus lanes, more bus priority at junctions, more one way streets, more streets closed to cars and eventually probably congestion charging.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,418 ✭✭✭Jip


    It got a mention on the AA Roadwatch this morning about how bad an affect it's having on surrounding areas this morning. That's the problem, the planners didn't look any further than that little stretch when they came up with this ridiculous idea, there's very little alternatives. All they had to do was wait for the new bridge to be opened.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 123 ✭✭brandodub


    That's pretty bad if its affecting Busaras. I presume if there are big delays that BE will object to it sooner or later?

    This squeeze point/bottleneck also affects Luas services.Again general traffic,taxi's, Bus Eireann/Ulsterbus services converge on a small (by city standards) junction to the detriment of all users-pedestrians included. In a word planning by the 'catch-up' school.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    bk wrote: »
    This was tried in Cork and failed. You need real bus lanes and cars must be kept out of them, it is bad enough that Taxis are allowed in them and that many drivers sneak into them.

    No it wasnt, the P&R bus has a transponder that gives it priority over traffic when making the right turn across 2 lanes of cars when going from the City Link South to the P&R depot.

    Edit: Tho sometimes it doesnt work and the bus driver has to break the red light.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,389 ✭✭✭markpb


    RTE wrote:
    Dublin city centre businesses have called for an urgent review of the car free zone at College Green claiming it has caused a serious decline in trade. A hastily arranged meeting of 12 business people in the city heard yesterday that Thursday night trade in particular has been badly affected by the bus gate. The operator of Brown Thomas car park said trade was down 75% in the evenings.

    The bus gate came in at the end of July banning private cars from passing Trinity College during morning and evening rush hours. The city council has promised a review next January. However Councillor Gerry Breen of Fine Gael said many shop workers could be on the dole by then. A spokesman for Dublin City Council said it will look at ways of encouraging shoppers who travel in cars into the city. He said that it seemed the bus gate had been a success for bus passengers and pedestrians.

    link

    I won't deny it's had some effect (it would be impossible for it not to) but I do think a review of the one way system and road signage in the city centre is necessary. It's very confusing for people to find their way round, to get to car parks, to get out of car parks, etc. Belfast by comparison is much simpler - all the major junctions have signs to the car parks and major routes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,815 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    The thing about bus lanes being mostly empty: the problem with the road system is not a lack of road space, it's a lack of junction capacity. You can only fit so many vehicles through a junction, and tailbacks develop as a result. The idea with the bus lane is to give the bus priority access to the junction.

    Every so often a problem develops because the resulting increased tailbacks don't have anywhere to go, and then they cause problems at the next junction back the line, and obviously this has to be avoided.

    To really increase the capacity of the system though, you really have to improve the capacity of the junctions.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Its traffic light sequencing as well.

    Travel down Pearse St in the mornings, every single light is a red after the one previous goes green, a stop start scenario. Traffic builds up as a result and then you have too much traffic at future junctions instead of been parsed apart manageably.

    And this affects the buses, they have too much traffic to compete with at junctions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    so there are less cars in the bt carpark,so what, wasn't that the point, where their figures on retail take?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    The businesses are getting pissy.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0904/transport.html
    Call for urgent review of Dublin bus corridor
    listen Friday, 4 September 2009 20:05

    Dublin city centre businesses have called for an urgent review of the car free zone at College Green claiming it has caused a serious decline in trade.

    A hastily arranged meeting of 12 business people in the city heard yesterday that Thursday night trade in particular has been badly affected by the bus gate.

    The operator of Brown Thomas car park said trade was down 75% in the evenings.
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    The bus gate came in at the end of July banning private cars from passing Trinity College during morning and evening rush hours.

    The city council has promised a review next January.

    However, Fine Gael Councillor Gerry Breen said many shop workers could be on the dole by then.

    A spokesman for Dublin City Council said it will look at ways of encouraging shoppers who travel in cars into the city.

    He said that it seemed the bus gate had been a success for bus passengers and pedestrians.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    To really increase the capacity of the system though, you really have to improve the capacity of the junctions.

    This in itself is proving a HUGE problem as the current DCC policy is to favour pedestrian movement at all cost.

    This well meaning though poorly thought through policy results in more and more fully sequenced Pedestrian phases at junctions even when NO pedestrian activity is present.

    DCC have also IMO ramped up the pedestrian green-man time to a sometimes absurd degree.

    Many of the newest signal arrays feature poorly planned and counter productive locations (Church Lane/Dame St) whilst maintaining an ABSOLUTE reluctance to install even short stretches of pedestrian barriers,the presence of which does much to make life a LOT safer in most UK towns and cities.

    However it`s unlikely DCC will heed the rantings of Boardies in the absence of a few Consultants to stimulate their juices !! :mad:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    This in itself is proving a HUGE problem as the current DCC policy is to favour pedestrian movement at all cost.

    This well meaning though poorly thought through policy results in more and more fully sequenced Pedestrian phases at junctions even when NO pedestrian activity is present.

    DCC have also IMO ramped up the pedestrian green-man time to a sometimes absurd degree.

    Many of the newest signal arrays feature poorly planned and counter productive locations (Church Lane/Dame St) whilst maintaining an ABSOLUTE reluctance to install even short stretches of pedestrian barriers,the presence of which does much to make life a LOT safer in most UK towns and cities.

    I think you're getting your wires crossed. Is it the policy of providing priority for pedestrians that you object to or the application of the policy?

    I cannot think of any reason to disagree with a policy to improve pedestrian capacity BUT I can agree that in-efficient signal sequencing serves no-one. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    The operator of Brown Thomas car park said trade was down 75% in the evenings.

    While the bus gate may be the problem, has this business group considered that perhaps customers who previously drove into Brown Thomas car park are now availing of the improved public transport to do late night shopping?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Well there seems to be no doubt that some of the city traders and car park operators are not in favour of the bus gate. Do bear in mind that there was huge tax incentives for the owners of the mukti storys to build them.

    It woukd be interesting if DCC,who I understand, own the Drury St. car park might give a steer on their figures for the last six months. They are only up the road from BT's.

    Even if I am wrong on this, DCC should have data for on-street parking for the area which should also have seen a similar fall off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    The operator of Brown Thomas car park said trade was down 75% in the evenings.
    There could be other explanations. We're in a recession & BT sells highly-priced goods. Less people eating out or going to the theatre. People using taxis or public transport.

    Is BT's parking more expensive than elsewhere?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    There could be other explanations. We're in a recession & BT sells highly-priced goods. Less people eating out or going to the theatre. People using taxis or public transport.

    But here is the question, do they mean retail says at Brown Thomas are down 75% or that usage of the car park at Brown Thomas is down 75%.

    I think it is latter, that just car park usage is down. For all we know Brown Thomas retail sales could be up.

    Personally I think the wording in the article was delibartely confusing to try and increase public sympathy for the car park owners.

    The reason being, if retail sales are down, then people would be worried, as it could lead to lots of job loses, but if it is just car park usage, there would be little sympathy. Everyone knows the massive tax breaks car park owners received * and that they make a complete mint off car parks (very little overheads) and they don't employ many people so not many jobs in danger.

    * I can never understand why they received tax breaks, they make a mint off car parks with little overheads, there was no need to give tax breaks to attract car parks to be built, they would have been built either way and obviosly they now go against public policy and the best interests of the city. I suppose lots of poiliticans best friends involved.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    I find it extraordinary that the bus gate is being blamed for this. The entrance route for cars to this car park is from Wicklow Street. To get there cars have to come from Georges Street via Exchequer Street or from Dame Street via Trinity Street and Andrew Street.

    Cars can still access both routes except if coming from D'Olier Street. Cars from the west can still access Dame Street via Parliament Street.

    Are they seriously suggesting that 75% of their traffic comes from O'Connell Street or Burgh Quay?

    This really is a load of codswallop and has far more to do with the recession than anything else.


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