College Green - the post mortem

MaceFace

Naas - East Wall (I commute outside rush hour)

markpb

MaceFace wrote: »

Naas - East Wall (I commute outside rush hour)

Do you think that people who live and work in Dublin and are able to make their trip using public transport should be delayed because of people who live 35km outside of Dublin? Ignore for a minute the problems with our public transport and house prices.

KC61

Maceface's commute does raise another issue - the complete lack of any park and ride sites to transfer to the BUS!!

There is only one such official site in Dublin and that is at the junction of Grange Road and Nutgrove Avenue in Rathfarnham.

If there was somewhere Maceface could park along the 151 bus route in the Clondalkin/Long Mile areas then they would have a direct link from their car to the East Wall!

techdiver

MaceFace wrote: »

Naas - East Wall (I commute outside rush hour)

Can you not get the train from Sallins?

MaceFace

markpb wrote: »

Do you think that people who live and work in Dublin and are able to make their trip using public transport should be delayed because of people who live 35km outside of Dublin? Ignore for a minute the problems with our public transport and house prices.

Of course not , but we have to come to some sort of balance and consider that for whatever reason, there are people who don't have access to public transport or by making use of it doubles or triples a journey time.

BTW: I think the bus coridor is a great idea, but I think it could be adapted slightly - allow motorbikes and any car with 3 or more passengers to use it.

Besides this aswell - if the bus system was not so stupid where almost every bus ends up in the city center, then we may not have this problem.

markpb

MaceFace wrote: »

BTW: I think the bus coridor is a great idea, but I think it could be adapted slightly - allow motorbikes and any car with 3 or more passengers to use it.

I agree about motorbikes but not about car pooling - it would require Gardai to enforce it and possibly to stop cars to inspect them. There's also the question about the benefits of carpooling - studies done in America indicate that most people in car pool lanes were carpooling before the lanes were there and there was only a minor take-up because of them. There were also incidents of people putting scarecrows in the car to make it look to outsiders like it was full of passengers As an example, who would you car pool with?

Besides this aswell - if the bus system was not so stupid where almost every bus ends up in the city center, then we may not have this problem.

The reason most buses didn't cross the city was because the congestion in the city centre made them unreliable. The 16/16A are prime examples - anyone waiting the 'other' side has no idea how long the bus will take to get to them. Hopefully now that the gate is in operation, DB will take a look at their routes and see what can be done.

Stark

MaceFace wrote: »

BTW: I think the bus coridor is a great idea, but I think it could be adapted slightly - allow motorbikes and any car with 3 or more passengers to use it.

There's no way a carpooling system would be enforceable in this country. We can't even enforce the easily enforceable laws.

crocro

MaceFace wrote: »

Some people don't have the luxury of public transport unless they park in the Red Cow park (and pay) and ride and then get a luas and a bus on top of that.

What I wouldn't give to be able to get a bus to work!!!
My current commute:
Drive - 40 mins
Public Transport - 1 hour 25mins (and have to work to the CIE schedule, not mine)

what about Bus eireann route 126 - approx 1hr naas-docklands? Little walk good for your heart.

MaceFace

I think Carpooling is a great idea. When I was in Oz, cars used to stop at the bus stop I was at to pick up anyone who wanted a lift so they could use the car pool lane.

Besides this, carpooling should not just be seen from the point of people sharing cars, but making use of the space we have on the roads that are very seldom used (i.e. bus lanes).

Its very easy to enforce if we wanted to - 2 penalty points if your caught and fines to pay the extra Gardai it would take to enforce it!

Bee

markpb wrote: »

You're probably right but I wouldn't be overly worried - things will settle down, people will find new routes or make unnecessary journeys less often or just later on in the day. People think that less roads means more congestion for existing traffic but it's not that simple - traffic isn't a constant - it adapts to the road capacity available to it.

There is now serious extra congestion from con colbert rd and the quays due to the ill thought out and seriously stupid closing to morning and evening traffic via College Green

The idiots and non professional "Traffic Engineers" in Dublin City council who designed this should be sacked.

Bee

techdiver wrote: »

Unfortunately the big pictures rules here. Many people who use cars in the city do so because the choose to do so. I have had many people say to me that they have no choice and have to drive. Many of these live within walking distance of public transport and are too lazy to walk there.

You are obviously unfamiliar with numerous reports that show the opposite
In a recession to increase congestion for all road users around the city to facilitate College Green with no appreciable results is idiotic

crocro

I guess the buses are going faster. That was the idea Slower car traffic should push some people to switch to buses.

HydeRoad

MaceFace wrote: »

I think Carpooling is a great idea. When I was in Oz, cars used to stop at the bus stop I was at to pick up anyone who wanted a lift so they could use the car pool lane.

Besides this, carpooling should not just be seen from the point of people sharing cars, but making use of the space we have on the roads that are very seldom used (i.e. bus lanes).

Its very easy to enforce if we wanted to - 2 penalty points if your caught and fines to pay the extra Gardai it would take to enforce it!

So you think that pulling into a BUS stop in your CAR, blocking the bus stop for a few moments, so that you can take bus passengers, either for free or for reward, it's immaterial, depriving the bus company of operating revenue, so that costs go up, purely for the selfish purpose of allowing yourself free use of the BUS lanes, thus adding another CAR to the congestion, pushing the BUS even further back in the traffic queue, pushing operating costs up even further, delaying BUS passengers even more, encouraging even further private CAR use, an ever increasing circle, is a GOOD thing?

Methinks your motivations are purely selfish, and not for the greater good at all.

MaceFace

HydeRoad wrote: »

So you think that pulling into a BUS stop in your CAR, blocking the bus stop for a few moments, so that you can take bus passengers, either for free or for reward, it's immaterial, depriving the bus company of operating revenue, so that costs go up, purely for the selfish purpose of allowing yourself free use of the BUS lanes, thus adding another CAR to the congestion, pushing the BUS even further back in the traffic queue, pushing operating costs up even further, delaying BUS passengers even more, encouraging even further private CAR use, an ever increasing circle, is a GOOD thing?

Methinks your motivations are purely selfish, and not for the greater good at all.

Will you calm down with your black and white attitude - I never said I thought pulling into a bus stop was a good idea. I said thats what I saw them do every day in Oz.
I am not getting in an argument about buses vs cars as that is a different subject.

Why are they called bus lanes - call them "high occupancy lanes" or something - for use by buses, taxis, motorbikes, cars with 4 or more people.

The fact are that not everyone has the luxury of making use of public transport. The fact is that as a result of removing road space for cars, it is resulting in congestion. The fact is most of these "bus lanes" are empty most of the time.

Example: Long Mile Road - bus lane the whole way on the way out and I rarely see a bus on it - but yet the cars can be backed up all the way from the N7 to the Drimnagh road. Reason: Cars can't get through the lights at Walkinstown Ave junction (where EP Mooney is) as there is only one lane.
If the bus lane were to end 10 meters before the lights, you would have twice the amount of traffic getting through the juntion and therefore congestion would be lessened all the way back to the Crumlin road at times!

Its about "Getting Dublin Moving" - well lets do it with a bit of thinking rather than the carrot and stick approach (without the carrot) that is currently being employed by those thinking these decisions.

techdiver

Bee wrote: »

You are obviously unfamiliar with numerous reports that show the opposite
In a recession to increase congestion for all road users around the city to facilitate College Green with no appreciable results is idiotic

I have lived in 5 different areas of Dublin both north side and south side and never had to use a car to get to work. I also commuted from the midlands to Dublin on numerous occasions and once again never had to use a car to get to work. People who say otherwise are making excuses for being lazy and unwilling to use public transport.

The priority should always be public transport like it or not. The changes to the college green corridor was to improve public transport flow though that area only, it was not an attempt to aid traffic congestion as a whole. It has done it's job as designed.

markpb

MaceFace wrote: »

The fact are that not everyone has the luxury of making use of public transport. The fact is that as a result of removing road space for cars, it is resulting in congestion.

People who live in cities, by and large, have the use of public transport. You can't then turn around and give that public transport second priority to people who choose to live outside the city so they can drive in.

The fact is most of these "bus lanes" are empty most of the time. Example: Long Mile Road - bus lane the whole way on the way out and I rarely see a bus on it - but yet the cars can be backed up all the way from the N7 to the Drimnagh road.

Bus lanes are meant to be empty - if they were full, the buses wouldn't be moving and wouldn't be providing a good level of service. Each bus can carry around 100 people which is why overall throughput on many of Dublin's arteries *increased* when a lane was closed to private vehicles. Less cars conclusively meant more people.

If the bus lane were to end 10 meters before the lights, you would have twice the amount of traffic getting through the juntion and therefore congestion would be lessened all the way back to the Crumlin road at times!

Many of Dublin's bus lanes are exactly like the solution you describe and yet QBN are actively removing them because it blocks buses and causes conflicts while cars change lanes twice (once before the junction and once after). The very act of cars changing lanes causes more delays than the extra road space helps.

MaceFace

Bus lanes are meant to be empty - if they were full, the buses wouldn't be moving and wouldn't be providing a good level of service. Each bus can carry around 100 people which is why overall throughput on many of Dublin's arteries *increased* when a lane was closed to private vehicles. Less cars conclusively meant more people.

I am not advocating opening bus lanes to all traffic but those that could be considered "high occupancy non public transport vehicles" - specifically cars with 4 or more people.
I would guess that >90% of cars during rush hour have 1-2 people in them. 98% of the bus lanes outside the immediate city center are empty most of the time.
All I am saying is that it will work in most cases. For those that it doesn't you keep them as "bus lanes", and for those that it does, you call them "carpooling lanes".

As for your comment about ending the bus lane before the junction - I am not aware of any that are there to aid throughput, but only aware of some that are there to allow cars to turn left as otherwise they could not.

Most of all - we need better enforcement of the rules already there!

gurramok

Those bus lanes should end sooner where there are junctions to turn left OR change the traffic light sequence to suit all.

Case in mind, both sides of Dorset st. The left turn onto Whitworth Rd and the left turn onto Belvedere Rd. Same from Prospect Rd onto Whitworth Rd.

What happens is that when left turn light is red and straight ahead is green, it all builds up and lanes are blocked for both buses and cars as we know cars are not allowed in the bus lane which itself goes too far towards the junction. This happens even when there are no pedestrians around to press that magic button.

KC61

For info the 151 uses the Long Mile Road bus lane and as you can see from the timetable it operates every 10-15 minutes throughout the day.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/151/

HydeRoad

MaceFace wrote: »

Will you calm down with your black and white attitude - I never said I thought pulling into a bus stop was a good idea. I said thats what I saw them do every day in Oz.

But you seem to favour it in Oz, as if such a thing might work here. I generally look at all sides of an argument, and long ago considered the carpooling argument, and came to an absolute, black and white conclusion, that I do not favour carpooling lanes under any circumstance.

They would contribute nothing to anyone except a small proportion of private motorists, and then only to the detriment of everyone else. Carpooling lanes would be unpoliceable. You suggest it would be easy. I suggest it would be impossible. Carpooling lanes would only encourage the already increasing lack of regard for bus lanes by private motorists, many of whom will not queue correctly if they see other cars passing them on the inside. You surely do not advocate a state salaried Garda on stance duty at every bus lane to prosecute offenders? What would the Garda do? Stop the offending car in front of a queue of buses? Look how many Gardai it takes just to police the College Green bus gate, and the difficulty they have pulling in hordes of offending private motorists.

But the most important consideration is the effect on the bus service. Dublin's bus service is wholly inadequate, and the two greatest causes of that are the antiquated fare collection system, which is a seperate issue, and the scrappy and ill designed bus lane network. The bus lanes as they are, are grossly inefficient, but with very little inconvenience to other road users, by simple tweaks of the system that any regular bus driver could point out, could almost guarantee Dublin the bus service it deserves. The worst suggestion that could possibly be made is any suggestion to congest the buses further. If you are seriously suggesting that, you may as well abandon the bus lane network altogether and return it to a free for all.

What you are suggesting does not work, I have experience of it, and while I welcome the debate, and any argument that might open my mind to it again, your argument does not convince. All I see is a private motorist trying to argue, weakly, a slight of hand way for him to have a traffic lane to himself, at the expense of too many others.

I would see this bus gate as a faltering way to ease the idea of the complete restriction of College Green at some future date. The problem is that no politician has the strength of character to pull off such a feat. These things cause a huge fuss initially, but after a surprisingly short time people get used to the new arrangements, provided they are planned properly in advance. You cannot selectively ban motorists, it's all or nothing.

cast_iron

MaceFace wrote: »

Most of all - we need better enforcement of the rules already there!

Quite true.

Though a couple of people above have asked you about possible alternatives to your incredible 2 hours and 5 mins commute form Naas to East Wall, outside rush hour and (unless I've missed something) you've not responded.

KC61

Maceface, you are aware that Bus Eireann route 126 operates to Docklands Rail Station on Sherriff Street taking 50 minutes in the off-peak from Naas? That is not a million miles from East Wall.

Return services are from beside Connolly LUAS stop.

http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1251473862-126.pdf

HydeRoad

MaceFace wrote: »

All I am saying is that it will work in most cases.

Sorry MaceFace, not trying to 'get' at you, just trying to vouch for a particularly strong conviction of mine against carpooling lanes. Here's why:

Let's say we advertise that a car with four adults can use the bus lane. Let's say we have a low take up on the offer, and ten cars on a road take four adults each. That's forty adults, thirty of whom have left their cars at home. That's thirty less cars on the road. So those ten carpooling cars are helping the traffic volume for all the other private motorists, who will probably save a change of lights or two. However that is now ten cars in front of the buses at the traffic lights, pushing the buses well back in the queue, and probably missing them a turn of the lights or two. SO while there is a benefit to all the cars, there is a consequential detriment to the bus passengers.

As the bus slows down in traffic, a small number of passengers get fed up sitting at red lights, and begin to drive themselves. So the bus loses some passengers, and loses valuable operating revenue, and the costs go up. In the meantime, a few more cars are added to the general traffic flow to replace the carpooling cars. Net result, traffic flow back to normal, except buses are now noticeably delayed. Forty people actually benefit by carpooling. But there are a lot more than forty people on the buses that are delayed.

Now let's say there is a greater take up of carpooling. Let's say a third of all cars. Now the benefit to the carpoolers is lessened, as the bus lane fills up with more cars. The main traffic flow frees up even more though, and the queue at the end of the bus lane is two thirds what is in the main traffic lane. Now the buses are going to suffer seriously, and the timetable and reliability goes right out the window.

Let's say there is a majority take up of carpooling. Now the dynamics change, to the point that there are so many cars carpooling, that the point of allowing them use the bus lane is null and void, because both lanes will carry as many cars. But the buses are now pushed right back to the speed of the general traffic flow, at which point the bus lane is non existant, and the buses may as well use either lane. The benefit of less cars on the road through carpooling is lost, as passengers desert the buses in droves, and return to cars. The bus operators are now in serious trouble too, as their revenues drop below what will viably keep the service running at all.

The decision therefore is whether to have bus lanes, and get the buses moving, or whether to abandon bus lanes altogether and leave the whole road open to all. Opening the bus lanes to carpoolers eventually results in the latter, so in order to have bus lanes at all, and justify them, they must remain for buses only.

This is all slightly OT to the original, but relevant, because the same argument applies to bus gates as to bus lanes, and why half measures do not work. It has to be all or nothing.

trellheim

The Guards weren't there when I cycled through at about 0915 on Wednesday, with the net effect there were loads of "wrong" vehicles going through.

bmaxi

trellheim wrote: »

The Guards weren't there when I cycled through at about 0915 on Wednesday, with the net effect there were loads of "wrong" vehicles going through.

I have to admit I was wrong. In an earlier post I gave it a month, it didn't even make that.

the boss of me

I went through it yesterday at 5.30 pm and there were two motorcycle Gardai giving out tickets. As the gardai were processing offending drivers, many others slipped through undetected.
I can't speak for the mornings but the journey times in the evenings have improved significantly. Westmoreland St. to OConnell Bridge in particular has seen a major improvement. The next few weeks should be interesting as the schools and colleges reopen.

confused-dazed

techdiver wrote: »

Obviously not a statement by a bus user on the route. It is designed to improve the bus flow through college green and not to ease traffic for car users who choose to drive as opposed to use public transport. I think it has been a great success!

it worked when the guards were there, as soon as they were taken off the bus gate full time both ways then private cars started going around college green again. one of the evenings i counted over 20 cars that shouldn't have even been there i.e. going around college gree onto west st.
buses are getting around alot quicker, but it's like bus lanes. proper lack of enforcement. as i said before whats needed are cameras similar to the ones used at the M50 but these would be switched on between 7-10 and 4-7 both ways.then an automatic fine is sent out in the post wth no leave to appeal the decision.basically 4 out of every 5 cars are getting through even with the guards there some evenings.

MaceFace

HydeRoad wrote: »

They would contribute nothing to anyone except a small proportion of private motorists, and then only to the detriment of everyone else.

Wrong - carpooling would benefit all traffic as it allows some cars to use parts of the road that are mostly unused. That frees up the congested roads by some amount which benefits the likes of me.

HydeRoad wrote: »

Carpooling lanes would be unpoliceable. You suggest it would be easy. I suggest it would be impossible. Carpooling lanes would only encourage the already increasing lack of regard for bus lanes by private motorists, many of whom will not queue correctly if they see other cars passing them on the inside. You surely do not advocate a state salaried Garda on stance duty at every bus lane to prosecute offenders? What would the Garda do? Stop the offending car in front of a queue of buses? Look how many Gardai it takes just to police the College Green bus gate, and the difficulty they have pulling in hordes of offending private motorists.

That is exactly what I am saying. You don't need a fleet of Gardai policing the same lanes every morning and if you do. Here is an easy solution: 2 points for using the bus lane with a hefty fine (€500).
I don't think there is a specific penalty point offense for using a Bus Lane. Bring one in, zap 500 in the first week (I personally see >50 every week on the Long Mile Road). Before long, people will get the message.

HydeRoad wrote: »

All I see is a private motorist trying to argue, weakly, a slight of hand way for him to have a traffic lane to himself, at the expense of too many others.

1 - I could not use the bus lane as I drive alone.
2 - The current bus lane system is ridiculous - vast stretches of road that are empty while cars are in traffic jams along side.
I am not saying every bus lane should be a carpooling lane, but I think the government jumped on some sort of crusade to allow them to come out with headline figures of saying things like - now we have an extra 500km of bus lanes to keep Dublin moving, rather than actually seeing if it makes sense to have it.

HydeRoad wrote: »

You cannot selectively ban motorists, it's all or nothing.

Of course you can. They do it in other countries, so why not here? All we need is proper enforcement.

cast_iron wrote: »

Quite true.

Though a couple of people above have asked you about possible alternatives to your incredible 2 hours and 5 mins commute form Naas to East Wall, outside rush hour and (unless I've missed something) you've not responded.

?????
From my original post:
My current commute:
Drive - 40 mins
Public Transport - 1 hour 25mins (and have to work to the CIE schedule, not mine)
(I switched to driving last year and have not looked back).

KC61 wrote: »

Maceface, you are aware that Bus Eireann route 126 operates to Docklands Rail Station on Sherriff Street taking 50 minutes in the off-peak from Naas? That is not a million miles from East Wall.

Return services are from beside Connolly LUAS stop.

http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1251473862-126.pdf

Which would mean a 20 minute walk either end which is lovely in the sunshine but not as attractive in Ireland!

HydeRoad wrote: »

The bus operators are now in serious trouble too, as their revenues drop below what will viably keep the service running at all.

Again, if I use the example of Australia - their fares are much higher than here. We need increased fares for our public transport.
For €20 a week I can get a ticket that will allow me to get a train from Sallins to Heuston, a Luas or bus to Connolly and a Dart to anywhere in the city. I can get this through taxsavers.ie which will push the price to me down to about €10.
Considering my drive costs me about €3.50 each way in petrol alone, I still see it much worthwhile.

So, what I think we need is less subsidies to the bus operators (although we need some), allowing us to look at best practices of other countries and try them here (turn on left, carpooling), and proper enforcement with proper penalties.

Stark

MaceFace wrote: »

Wrong - carpooling would benefit all traffic as it allows some cars to use parts of the road that are mostly unused. That frees up the congested roads by some amount which benefits the likes of me.

Well aside from the fact that most people care about benefiting as many people as possible and not just you, traffic has a tendency to fill available road space. The main problem is at the bottlenecks where two lanes merge back into one and the like. The sole advantage of bus lanes tends to be that they allow buses to "skip the queue". Having two lanes full of car traffic doesn't tend to benefit anyone.

MaceFace

Stark wrote: »

Well aside from the fact that most people care about benefiting as many people as possible and not just you, traffic has a tendency to fill available road space. The main problem is at the bottlenecks where two lanes merge back into one and the like. The sole advantage of bus lanes tends to be that they allow buses to "skip the queue". Having two lanes full of car traffic doesn't tend to benefit anyone.

Who is talking about 2 lanes full of traffic? I am saying there are plenty of bus lanes that could be better utilitised.

There are loads of bus lanes I can think are totally useless and there are quite a few that should be better utilised - meaning come up with some sort of system that allows the road space to be used when buses are not there.