College Green - the post mortem

HydeRoad

MaceFace wrote: »

Who is talking about 2 lanes full of traffic? I am saying there are plenty of bus lanes that could be better utilitised.

There are loads of bus lanes I can think are totally useless and there are quite a few that should be better utilised - meaning come up with some sort of system that allows the road space to be used when buses are not there.

Your posts are becoming surreal now. You want 'some sort of system' that allows the bus lane to be used by cars when the buses are not there. So when the bus arrives, the bus lane will magically empty of cars, and when the bus has gone, it fills up with cars again? It'd take a book to even try to explain the fallacies in your thinking.

Elsewhere, you want to put up the bus fares. You really have it in for buses. There's nothing wrong with having that point of view. But an anti bus point of view is best served by advocating the removal of all bus lanes. If you believe bus lanes should be got rid of altogether, that's a valid argument, even if I argue the opposite. But you want to keep the bus lanes, yet fill them with cars. That doesn't make sense at all, from any side of the fence.

Any bus lanes that are useless, and there are many, are generally useless through rotten design. There are quite a few instances where it is quicker and safer for the bus driver NOT to use the bus lane provided. But you generally have to BE a bus driver to understand the logic.

As for Dublin Bus, well if you gave them the entire rights over the city and banned everything else, they would still manage to screw things up. I'd love to see better bus lanes, and somebody OTHER than Dublin Bus provide the bus services...

MaceFace

HydeRoad wrote: »

Your posts are becoming surreal now. You want 'some sort of system' that allows the bus lane to be used by cars when the buses are not there. So when the bus arrives, the bus lane will magically empty of cars, and when the bus has gone, it fills up with cars again? It'd take a book to even try to explain the fallacies in your thinking.

Ok, fine, your right - the system we have in this country is just brilliant. How about you stop misquoting and taking things out of context and instead of just shooting down ideas of how we can improve congestion, come up with some ideas yourself.

If you care to even think about what I am saying, you would see that I am not anti-bus or anti-public transport.

There are many bus lanes that are completly empty 99% of the time. I am saying quite simply that surely there has to be a way that we can make use of this space.

Here is another idea - give buses a device like the LUAS that allows them to have priorities at certain junctions.
Whats your problem with this suggestion HydePark - surely you have one.

HydeRoad

You just don't seem to understand, that in order for a bus lane to be effective, it has to be empty. What good is a bus lane at all if there are going to be cars in front of the bus? I don't see your suggestion helping congestion, I only see it increasing congestion.

Traffic

see link for bus priority:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0416/1224244812782.html

bk

MaceFace wrote: »

Here is another idea - give buses a device like the LUAS that allows them to have priorities at certain junctions.

This was tried in Cork and failed. You need real bus lanes and cars must be kept out of them, it is bad enough that Taxis are allowed in them and that many drivers sneak into them.

The reality is that over time cars will increasingly be discouraged from going into the city and increasingly priority given to public transport. Get use to it, it is the only way a city of the size of Dublin can be made to work.

The future is more bus lanes, more bus priority at junctions, more one way streets, more streets closed to cars and eventually probably congestion charging.

Jip

It got a mention on the AA Roadwatch this morning about how bad an affect it's having on surrounding areas this morning. That's the problem, the planners didn't look any further than that little stretch when they came up with this ridiculous idea, there's very little alternatives. All they had to do was wait for the new bridge to be opened.

brandodub

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That's pretty bad if its affecting Busaras. I presume if there are big delays that BE will object to it sooner or later?

This squeeze point/bottleneck also affects Luas services.Again general traffic,taxi's, Bus Eireann/Ulsterbus services converge on a small (by city standards) junction to the detriment of all users-pedestrians included. In a word planning by the 'catch-up' school.

Chris_533976

bk wrote: »

This was tried in Cork and failed. You need real bus lanes and cars must be kept out of them, it is bad enough that Taxis are allowed in them and that many drivers sneak into them.

No it wasnt, the P&R bus has a transponder that gives it priority over traffic when making the right turn across 2 lanes of cars when going from the City Link South to the P&R depot.

Edit: Tho sometimes it doesnt work and the bus driver has to break the red light.

markpb

RTE wrote:

Dublin city centre businesses have called for an urgent review of the car free zone at College Green claiming it has caused a serious decline in trade. A hastily arranged meeting of 12 business people in the city heard yesterday that Thursday night trade in particular has been badly affected by the bus gate. The operator of Brown Thomas car park said trade was down 75% in the evenings.

The bus gate came in at the end of July banning private cars from passing Trinity College during morning and evening rush hours. The city council has promised a review next January. However Councillor Gerry Breen of Fine Gael said many shop workers could be on the dole by then. A spokesman for Dublin City Council said it will look at ways of encouraging shoppers who travel in cars into the city. He said that it seemed the bus gate had been a success for bus passengers and pedestrians.

link

I won't deny it's had some effect (it would be impossible for it not to) but I do think a review of the one way system and road signage in the city centre is necessary. It's very confusing for people to find their way round, to get to car parks, to get out of car parks, etc. Belfast by comparison is much simpler - all the major junctions have signs to the car parks and major routes.

antoinolachtnai

The thing about bus lanes being mostly empty: the problem with the road system is not a lack of road space, it's a lack of junction capacity. You can only fit so many vehicles through a junction, and tailbacks develop as a result. The idea with the bus lane is to give the bus priority access to the junction.

Every so often a problem develops because the resulting increased tailbacks don't have anywhere to go, and then they cause problems at the next junction back the line, and obviously this has to be avoided.

To really increase the capacity of the system though, you really have to improve the capacity of the junctions.

gurramok

Its traffic light sequencing as well.

Travel down Pearse St in the mornings, every single light is a red after the one previous goes green, a stop start scenario. Traffic builds up as a result and then you have too much traffic at future junctions instead of been parsed apart manageably.

And this affects the buses, they have too much traffic to compete with at junctions.

lostexpectation

so there are less cars in the bt carpark,so what, wasn't that the point, where their figures on retail take?

Chris_533976

The businesses are getting pissy.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0904/transport.html

Call for urgent review of Dublin bus corridor
listen Friday, 4 September 2009 20:05

Dublin city centre businesses have called for an urgent review of the car free zone at College Green claiming it has caused a serious decline in trade.

A hastily arranged meeting of 12 business people in the city heard yesterday that Thursday night trade in particular has been badly affected by the bus gate.

The operator of Brown Thomas car park said trade was down 75% in the evenings.
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The bus gate came in at the end of July banning private cars from passing Trinity College during morning and evening rush hours.

The city council has promised a review next January.

However, Fine Gael Councillor Gerry Breen said many shop workers could be on the dole by then.

A spokesman for Dublin City Council said it will look at ways of encouraging shoppers who travel in cars into the city.

He said that it seemed the bus gate had been a success for bus passengers and pedestrians.

AlekSmart

To really increase the capacity of the system though, you really have to improve the capacity of the junctions.

This in itself is proving a HUGE problem as the current DCC policy is to favour pedestrian movement at all cost.

This well meaning though poorly thought through policy results in more and more fully sequenced Pedestrian phases at junctions even when NO pedestrian activity is present.

DCC have also IMO ramped up the pedestrian green-man time to a sometimes absurd degree.

Many of the newest signal arrays feature poorly planned and counter productive locations (Church Lane/Dame St) whilst maintaining an ABSOLUTE reluctance to install even short stretches of pedestrian barriers,the presence of which does much to make life a LOT safer in most UK towns and cities.

However it`s unlikely DCC will heed the rantings of Boardies in the absence of a few Consultants to stimulate their juices !! :mad:

HonalD

AlekSmart wrote: »

This in itself is proving a HUGE problem as the current DCC policy is to favour pedestrian movement at all cost.

This well meaning though poorly thought through policy results in more and more fully sequenced Pedestrian phases at junctions even when NO pedestrian activity is present.

DCC have also IMO ramped up the pedestrian green-man time to a sometimes absurd degree.

Many of the newest signal arrays feature poorly planned and counter productive locations (Church Lane/Dame St) whilst maintaining an ABSOLUTE reluctance to install even short stretches of pedestrian barriers,the presence of which does much to make life a LOT safer in most UK towns and cities.

I think you're getting your wires crossed. Is it the policy of providing priority for pedestrians that you object to or the application of the policy?

I cannot think of any reason to disagree with a policy to improve pedestrian capacity BUT I can agree that in-efficient signal sequencing serves no-one.

MiniD

The operator of Brown Thomas car park said trade was down 75% in the evenings.

While the bus gate may be the problem, has this business group considered that perhaps customers who previously drove into Brown Thomas car park are now availing of the improved public transport to do late night shopping?

BrianD

Well there seems to be no doubt that some of the city traders and car park operators are not in favour of the bus gate. Do bear in mind that there was huge tax incentives for the owners of the mukti storys to build them.

It woukd be interesting if DCC,who I understand, own the Drury St. car park might give a steer on their figures for the last six months. They are only up the road from BT's.

Even if I am wrong on this, DCC should have data for on-street parking for the area which should also have seen a similar fall off.

cyclopath2001

The operator of Brown Thomas car park said trade was down 75% in the evenings.

There could be other explanations. We're in a recession & BT sells highly-priced goods. Less people eating out or going to the theatre. People using taxis or public transport.

Is BT's parking more expensive than elsewhere?

bk

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

There could be other explanations. We're in a recession & BT sells highly-priced goods. Less people eating out or going to the theatre. People using taxis or public transport.

But here is the question, do they mean retail says at Brown Thomas are down 75% or that usage of the car park at Brown Thomas is down 75%.

I think it is latter, that just car park usage is down. For all we know Brown Thomas retail sales could be up.

Personally I think the wording in the article was delibartely confusing to try and increase public sympathy for the car park owners.

The reason being, if retail sales are down, then people would be worried, as it could lead to lots of job loses, but if it is just car park usage, there would be little sympathy. Everyone knows the massive tax breaks car park owners received * and that they make a complete mint off car parks (very little overheads) and they don't employ many people so not many jobs in danger.

* I can never understand why they received tax breaks, they make a mint off car parks with little overheads, there was no need to give tax breaks to attract car parks to be built, they would have been built either way and obviosly they now go against public policy and the best interests of the city. I suppose lots of poiliticans best friends involved.

KC61

I find it extraordinary that the bus gate is being blamed for this. The entrance route for cars to this car park is from Wicklow Street. To get there cars have to come from Georges Street via Exchequer Street or from Dame Street via Trinity Street and Andrew Street.

Cars can still access both routes except if coming from D'Olier Street. Cars from the west can still access Dame Street via Parliament Street.

Are they seriously suggesting that 75% of their traffic comes from O'Connell Street or Burgh Quay?

This really is a load of codswallop and has far more to do with the recession than anything else.

BrianD

The traders do have a point in that the whole scheme - which I welcome - is so badly signposted. It's simply joke. You only come upon the signage when you are at College Green.

It would be much better if they had variable signage well in advance of College Green so the alternative routes can be used. A review of the "parking space available" signage is also in order as many of these signs are now outdated or need better positioning (there's still one at the top of grafton st!).

Personally, I do find the BT story a little hard to believe. I have had occasion to visit the area at a number of times during the past week. It was difficult to get on street parking at any of these times. My point is that cars are having no problem getting into the area. Perhaps they are not choosing to use the BT car park.

Stark

bk wrote: »

* I can never understand why they received tax breaks, they make a mint off car parks with little overheads, there was no need to give tax breaks to attract car parks to be built, they would have been built either way and obviosly they now go against public policy and the best interests of the city. I suppose lots of poiliticans best friends involved.

Afaik, the theory is that having off-street parking vs on-street parking reduces congestion as you don't have people driving around in circles looking for car parking spaces.

Coriolanus

Seems only to be BT and Grafton St that are complaining via the advocacy group.

I can't say that I've noticed all that huge a falloff on the OConnell St, Abbey St, Henry St side of things.

Considering it's €12 all day in several places on the north, and €10 (afair) in that place by McTurcaills on the south, I'd say most of the fellas 75% drop is the large price he's flogging spaces at. Didn't get to go down myself to check, but last time I had to park on the south, the BT place was 20 or 22 or something.

trellheim

Copper on duty just round the corner outside Trinity stopping violators this AM; so at least they're still at it.

markpb

trellheim wrote: »

Copper on duty just round the corner outside Trinity stopping violators this AM; so at least they're still at it.

And it looks like they're still catching a large number of people every day. They usually have a line of cars stopped when I go past in the mornings, sometimes more than the 2-4 Gardai on duty can handle.

MaceFace

markpb wrote: »

And it looks like they're still catching a large number of people every day. They usually have a line of cars stopped when I go past in the mornings, sometimes more than the 2-4 Gardai on duty can handle.

Good Stuff.
Whats the penalty? Just Euros or is it points as well?

BrianD

DCC could really help themselves and the rest of us by putting up some some advance signage.

You only have to look at what was put up to see that it was done by somebody who has no clue what so ever. VMS are badly positioned and are confusing and what the hell are those tiny yellow signs for? The small print ... you're in a bus zone sorry we didn't tell you before it's too lates.

I note that some new parking direction signs have popped. All badly positioned and don't conform to any standard.

The other thing is that the road markings don't help the flow of traffic when the bus gate is in operation. There needs to be "ghost lines" to guide traffic lanes during normal hours. Are the bus lanes maked still bus lanes? I don't even know!

monument

Anybody know all the 13 companies listed as taking a case against the city council?

Courts.ie is a nightmare of a site to search when you don't know where to be looking.

Victor

There is a group supporting the bus gate here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/College-Green-Bus-Gate/155591513018?v=info#/pages/College-Green-Bus-Gate/155591513018?v=wall

KC61

From today's Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1030/1224257679920.html

Dempsey opposes plan to scale back car ban

By OLIVIA KELLY

MINISTER FOR Transport Noel Dempsey has voiced disapproval of Dublin City Council's plans to scale back the College Green "bus gate" to appease city business interests.

Mr Dempsey yesterday said he did not want the council to end or curtail the restriction on private cars passing through the city centre, and rejected claims that retail sales were down because of the initiative.

The bus gate is a bus lane that operates from 7am to 10am and 4pm to 7pm, Monday to Friday, restricting traffic on College Green to public transport vehicles and cyclists.

City traders led by the Dublin City Business Association said the move had resulted in a 30 per cent drop in business since it was introduced in July, and have lobbied councillors to scrap the measure.

The bus gate is also the subject of a High Court action against the council by 12 plaintiffs, including Brown Thomas, Louis Copeland, Q-Park and other multistorey car-park operators.

City manager John Tierney is to present a report to councillors on Monday proposing the car ban be lifted during the evening peak hours for two months. The suspension would run from November 18th to January 15th, to cover the Christmas shopping period and January sales.

However, Mr Dempsey has said he is not happy with any curtailment of the bus gate. He had originally supported a 24-hour, seven-day ban on cars passing through College Green, but this was scaled back to the morning and evening peak restriction by a vote of the city councillors.

"The bus gate is working. It's making a very real difference to city centre bus users, pedestrians and cyclists," he said.

He criticised "negative commentary" by groups such as the business association which had conveyed the inaccurate message that the city centre was almost inaccessible.

"Why are they doing that? It's self-defeating. Wouldn't it make more sense to get the accurate message out there that Dublin city centre has never been more accessible?"

He said he could not accept that the bus gate was a major cause of a sales decline in the city centre.

Car park owners would be better served by dropping their "high prices" to encourage trade rather than challenging the traffic restriction, he said.

Dublin Bus has also criticised the council's plans. One of the principal aims behind the restriction was to end the traffic bottleneck at College Green that made it impossible to run bus services to a reliable timetable.

"The bus gate has been a major success. Before it was introduced it could take up to 40 minutes to get to Parnell Square from College Green. Now it takes 10," said a spokesperson.

"We have been able to bring consistency and reliability to the 93 million customers who pass through College Green each year and we are very disappointed with this change. It is imperative that there would be a full return of the bus gate in January."

Minister for the Environment John Gormley also expressed concern over the council proposal to partially lift the restriction.

He said comments attributed to traders in relation to the bus gate were "outrageous and unacceptable".

The council's director of traffic, Michael Phillips, said he could not comment on the proposals or on Mr Dempsey's comments until after the report had been discussed by the councillors on Monday.

He said he was not aware of any direct contact from Mr Dempsey in relation to the proposals.

The Dublin City Business Association said it could not make a spokesman available for comment yesterday