College Green - the post mortem

bmaxi

I've been a critic of the bus gate on this thread, not principally on the concept itself, rather on the short sighted way it was introduced. This however, I see as a retrograde step, the city council bowing to vested interests. Nothing new there, different faces maybe but same old same old.

munchkin_utd

Indeed.
for a few posh rich and influential shoppers in Brown Thomas and Louis Copeland the council proposes ELIMINATING the benefits that the dublin bus rep puts forward as follows:

"We have been able to bring consistency and reliability to the 93 million customers who pass through College Green each year and we are very disappointed with this change. It is imperative that there would be a full return of the bus gate in January."

NINETY THREE MILLION people should be inconvenienced so that a few dozen rich gits can drive to town to buy a suit or designer shoes.

That theres less rich gits buying posh suits might be simply more to do with less rich gits in the country now compared to a few years ago rather than them not being able to get to the shops.

dereko1969

It would seem from BT and Louis Copeland that all their customers must be from DNS as they're the only customers who would have to make any change to their journey, and not even the full DNS just the North East corridor and as has been pointed out it's not even taking people much out of their way.

How surprising is it that the people who complained about this before it was introduced are complaining again and not addressing the issue that their prices are too high for both their products and their parking.

Red Alert

The council need to get it through their heads that although the traders are rate-payers, they are not customers of the council - the ordinary citizen is who the council should be considering. Traffic management should not be there for the likes of BT to dictate.

serfboard

Noel Dempsey wrote:

"Wouldn't it make more sense to get the accurate message out there that Dublin city centre has never been more accessible?"

dereko1969 wrote: »

How surprising is it that the people who complained about this before it was introduced are complaining again and not addressing the issue that their prices are too high for both their products and their parking.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

NINETY THREE MILLION people should be inconvenienced so that a few dozen rich gits can drive to town to buy a suit or designer shoes.

Red Alert wrote: »

the ordinary citizen is who the council should be considering. Traffic management should not be there for the likes of BT to dictate.

Agree 100% with all of the above. Dublin City Council - show some backbone and some respect for the electorate who put you in there.

D'Peoples Voice

In some respect, people from Dublin need to accept they get what they vote for.
We only voted in these local councillors in June of THIS year!

So not contend with a crappy central government, people from Dublin had to decide to elect a crappy local government.
Wait for it, they will start complaining about them shortly - despite the fact that they elected them in a democratic election.

Still, they have fixed up the cycle path along Mespil road, something which hadn't been done since Jack Charlton was manager of the Irish team - so hell they were worth my vote.

Jip

munchkin_utd wrote: »

NINETY THREE MILLION people should be inconvenienced so that a few dozen rich gits can drive to town to buy a suit or designer shoes.

eh, 93 million people aren't being inconvenienced.

munchkin_utd

Jip wrote: »

eh, 93 million people aren't being inconvenienced.

ok, i can see what your getting at.
a totally unknown actual number of people use busses.
Nevertheless, 93 million person journeys are made along the College Green corridor.

Whether 200000 people/ 500000 or a million people were involved in making those journeys is somewhat irrelevant to the point.

A massive number of ordinary joes, in the region of 100s of thousands of people are now benefiting from the bus gate, but the council sees the prosperity of the 2 top gents and ladies outfitters as being more important.

if the bus gate is removed, maybe Dublin Bus should send a bill to the council for any costs incurred by busses stuck in trafffic.
Shag it, if the council reverses a planning decision leading to costs/ loss of earnings then the developer gets compensation so why not the bus companies?
it would definitely focus the council and make them cop on.

Jip

I don't disagree in theory with the bus gate, nor do I think the people campaigning against it, but the problem is they should have waited until the new bridge was open. The bus gate simply should not have been implemented until the bridge was open and then I don't think anyone would have had a problem with it.

Ste.phen

Jip wrote: »

I don't disagree in theory with the bus gate, nor do I think the people campaigning against it, but the problem is they should have waited until the new bridge was open. The bus gate simply should not have been implemented until the bridge was open and then I don't think anyone would have had a problem with it.

I think you're being too generous to the DCBA.

Agree with a previous poster, as far as I can there's not too much extra difficulty in getting to the BT car park with the new arrangements unless you're approaching from O Connell St, which in itself is difficult enough to legally be on (in the Southbound direction)

KC61

Jip wrote: »

I don't disagree in theory with the bus gate, nor do I think the people campaigning against it, but the problem is they should have waited until the new bridge was open. The bus gate simply should not have been implemented until the bridge was open and then I don't think anyone would have had a problem with it.

What difference is the new bridge going to make to anyone going to BT or Weirs or any of the other locations?

Jip

It's simply a pain in the ass to get to either of the car parks in the Grafton Street area or to the one on Fleet Street if you're coming from the O'Connell Street direction or the north quays.

The new bridge will make it easier to get over to the south side of the city during times when the bus gate is operational, it's not rocket science.

KC61

The bridge is at Macken Street - that is not going to matter a jot to anyone coming from the O'Connell Street area. What it will do is free up Pearse Street substantially.

crocro

I think they're talking about the marlborough street bridge. You are right that it is irrelavant to college green. No amount of bridges will make it OK to drive a private car during rush hour through college green.

bmaxi

I think the new bridge will also take a lot of traffic from Amiens St. and Matt Talbot bridge, thereby easing congestion around the Custom House, with a knock on effect to Abbey St, Eden Quay and Butt Bridge. When is it due to open BTW?

KC61

True - but I still think that the effects are being overplayed by the traders as an excuse.

It's due to open in December.

KC61

crocro wrote: »

I think they're talking about the marlborough street bridge. You are right that it is irrelavant to college green. No amount of bridges will make it OK to drive a private car during rush hour through college green.

That bridge is not going to be builty until the construction work on Metro North starts, so that is a total red herring.

gurramok

bmaxi is correct. They've seen sense http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1030/dublin.html

Nov 18th till Jan 10th, the gate will be lifted. As i said from the beginning it should have never been implemented before the new Macken st bridge was opened.

Pearse st was stuck at rush hr for a half hour at 5:30pm this evening and yes buses were stuck too. Same all the way over to the Liberties.

dub_commuter

gurramok wrote: »

Pearse st was stuck at rush hr for a half hour at 5:30pm this evening and yes buses were stuck too. Same all the way over to the Liberties.

Well having been down there myself at exactly the same time I can vouch that it was nowhere near like 30 minutes, barely over ten minutes. But that is typical of the people who are against the bus gate to exaggerate the problems it's causing.

gurramok

dub_commuter wrote: »

Well having been down there myself at exactly the same time I can vouch that it was nowhere near like 30 minutes, barely over ten minutes. But that is typical of the people who are against the bus gate to exaggerate the problems it's causing.

You must of been on the wrong street. I ended up taking a diversion at 6pm up towards Kildare st and that was gridlocked too, ended up turning back.
I walked down Pearse st about 6:30pm into town and that was moving fine, there must of been an accident earlier that held it up.

Jip

dub_commuter wrote: »

Well having been down there myself at exactly the same time I can vouch that it was nowhere near like 30 minutes, barely over ten minutes. But that is typical of the people who are against the bus gate to exaggerate the problems it's causing.

It's not an exageration, to do Pearse Street in 10 minutes in the evening is a good time, an exception as opposed to the rule. The problem the bus gate has is that it stops traffic turning onto the south quays from Pearse Street, every other lane heading over to the north side moves great, traffic just can't get onto the quays as it's congested between Pearse Street and O'Connell Bridge, once past O'Connell Bridge traffic moves fine.

The bus gate has a similar affect around Memorial Bridge, traffic heading north to south gets held up turning onto the quays as there's no space thus delaying traffic trying to drive up City Quay. If the bridge from Sir John Rogersons Quay to Custom House Quay was opened first these bottlenecks shouldn't be an issue.

KC61 wrote: »

The bridge is at Macken Street - that is not going to matter a jot to anyone coming from the O'Connell Street area.

Of course it will, it will take alot of traffic away from O'Connell Street and Memorial Bridge trying to get north to south.

AMontague

I have backed Bus Gate since it was first proposed at the City Council, and I've been working hard to try to save the Bus Gate since it came into operation on July 27th. When I was elected Chair of Dublin City Council's traffic committee this summer there was already a full-scale campaign against the Bus Gate being waged by some traders, who were blaming the Bus Gate for a significant reduction in their footfall.

There weren't enough voices being heard in favour of the Bus Gate, but I was sure that there were many people benefitting from the new traffic regime and I wanted to make sure their voices were heard. In the last 6 weeks, I've been in contact with Dublin Bus, the Dublin Cycling Campaign, environmental officers from various student unions, Trinity Students and other interested stakeholders. I encouraged these groups to get their side of the argument out into the public domain.

I also thought it was fair to talk to representatives of the traders, so I've met with a variety of Business Representative organisations and with individual traders from the Grafton Street and Dame Street area.

The original vote for Bus Gate in the City Council was a very close run thing. We won that vote by 15 to 13 in May. However, I suspect that the traders successfully managed to shift opinions and persuaded many councillors that the Bus Gate was costing jobs. As more facts and figures have emerged, it became easier to counteract that opinion and the strength and the passion of those in favour of the Bus Gate has moved some councillors back in support of the Bus Gate.

However, as we head into the vote in the Council meeting on Monday, I know that some councillors were looking to have the Bus Gate removed entirely. If there was a straight vote on those for and against the Bus Gate - I think it would be too close to call. I'm prepared to vote for the compromise put forward by the manager, in order that we don't lose everything. At least with the compromise we keep Bus Gate in the morning and have it returned in January. At the meeting on Monday, I will be looking for reassurances from the City Manager that the Gate will re-open fully in January. If I believe that the proposal is an attempt to quietly bury the Bus Gate, I won't support it.

I know many people will view my decision to back the compromise as the wrong way to go, but in my opinion it is the least risky way to ensure that we have Bus Gate in 2010.

Cllr Andrew Montague

antoinolachtnai

Andrew,

The reality was that the bus gate did not hinder access to city car parks to any great degree.

The basic plan was actually pretty sound and well thought out. You could still get to northside carparks from the southside and to southside car parks from the northside.

However, the mistaken perception was allowed go out that the city was closed for cars after four o'clock.

The big problem with what was done has really been the communication. The communication to drivers was just awful. There was absolutely no excuse for it.

The failure to communicate properly about this is going to cost the City at least 5m euros by the end of the fiasco, between legal fees, bad debts on rates, loss of rates and loss of parking revenue. I am sorry to say it, I think a lot of good work has been done, but DCC has grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory here.

AMontague

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The big problem with what was done has really been the communication. The communication to drivers was just awful. There was absolutely no excuse for it.

Can you be a bit more specific? Are you talking about street signage, messages in the media, maps, graphics?

KC61

I would also suggest that Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann need to be emphasising the improvements in service reliability that the bus gate has delivered and stressing that it is easier to get into and around Dublin city centre using the bus!!!

Thoie

AMontague wrote: »

Can you be a bit more specific? Are you talking about street signage, messages in the media, maps, graphics?

My comments about Dublin road signage are not limited to the College Green situation.

There was a sign about College Green being closed situated on the Naas Road heading west just before the Red Cow. Yes, traffic going in that direction can hop on the M50 in either direction and go back into town some other way, but it was a little bit strange. That same sign was recently mentioning a closed buslane nowhere nearby.

If someone from outside Dublin drives to Dublin, the words "College Green" on their own don't mean much. By the time you discover that College Green is somewhere you're heading for, it's usually too late.

Most other countries manage to warn you with "Diversion ahead" signs. Let's say I'm approaching from Heuston, heading to Molesworth St. This is the route I'll need to take. What I really need is a sign somewhere on Inns Quay telling me "South inner city traffic, take next right". Much later than that and I might not get a chance to change lanes in time.

AlekSmart

I have backed Bus Gate since it was first proposed at the City Council, and I've been working hard to try to save the Bus Gate since it came into operation on July 27th. When I was elected Chair of Dublin City Council's traffic committee this summer there was already a full-scale campaign against the Bus Gate being waged by some traders,

Full marks to Cllr Montague for being one of the few City Councillors to take a broader view of Dublin as a Capital City than is the norm.

I listened to a couple of Radio debates between Cllr Montague and various representatives of the DCCBA over the past week and I felt that the Cllr had his work cut out to overcome firstly the doom laden message of the DCCBA (Nicely dovetailing with the prevailing wind) and,importantly,with often partisan Radio Presenters more interested in getting a row going than in teasing out the truth.

As I listened to Tom Coffey (?) of the DCCBA getting all emotive concerning the Job Losses which the partial Bus Gate threatened upon his members I was moved to enquire if he had considered the position of Busdrivers if the Busgate is dumped?

The Busgate is currently working very well for all cross-city Bus Atha Cliath routes...BUT !...Bus Atha Cliath alone does not a City`s Transport make.....The customers of Bus Eireann,Aircoach,Dualway,Morton and a score of other public bus services now benefit greatly from the belated priority now afforded Public Transport.

The Coach Tour industry also benefits as do the Taxi customers.

Inherent upon this benefit level is the threat to Busdrivers employment if their employers routes revert back to the old chaotic College Green situation which the DCCBA appear to relish.

The entire ethos of the Bus Gate ALLIED with other Quality Bus Network improvements is to make Public Transport a far more realistic and viable option than is the case currently.

Whilst Bus Atha Cliath has been running a PR campaign,it has been a somewhat tame affair with little to drag a viewer/listeners eyes or ears to it.

Not much visible from Bus Eireann, Aircoach or any other operators but NOTHING whatever from the City Centre Businesses whose employees and customers HAVE gained from the BusGate .

The message needs to get out that the BusGate offers far more positive attributes to the OVERALL Traffic Situation in Dublin instead of this highly suspect focus on the Grafton St/Temple Bar commercial elite,much of whom appear to be dabblers in Property Valuation all dependent on maintaining revenue streams from Multi-Story Car Parks..

antoinolachtnai

AMontague wrote: »

Can you be a bit more specific? Are you talking about street signage, messages in the media, maps, graphics?

It's hard to be more specific, because there is little to be specific about. The problem is that little or nothing was done. However:

- I haven't seen a single advertisement saying 'Dublin Car Parks are open for business' or 'Parking for Grafton St this way'

- Knowing that there is a way to the car parks depends on understanding the orbital system. The advertising and signage for the orbital system is bizarre and impossible to understand, with lots of extraneous detail. The colourings used are completely non-standard. To that extent, I suppose you could say that the street signage is a big problem - practically all of it -. There was a big fuss about this signage when it went in, with people saying that it was unintelligible. The council ignored the issue, but the problem was still there. Were there any communications professionals involved in this at all? Why don't we redesign this signage now?

Putting a message on the M50 saying that College Green is closed to cars is tantamount to saying the south city is closed for business and that it would be better for motorists to go to a shopping centre in Fingal, DLRD or SDCC.

Now, maybe this is all imaginary in the minds of traders in the Grafton St area. It could well be. But that doesn't really matter. The traders are effectively the City's customers. Their rates are what pay the bills, wages and expenses of the council. Now there will have to be cutbacks to basic city council services in order to make up the needless shortfall. It was stupid to launch an initiative that would impact so much on them (both positively and negatively) without having a plan to manage and promote their interests.

It is ridiculous that this thread and the discussion generally is being whipped up into the idea that there is an opposition between traders and public transport. There isn't and it is a pointless dichotomy. The bus gate is about rerouting cross-city commuters, not about stopping people going shopping.

Don't get me wrong. I am a big advocate of public transport. I operate a bus route in the city and I have to deal with congestion issues nearly every day from September to December. But the way this was done was just not realistic. It was half-baked and was not worthy of the many moves forward the city has made in the last few years as regards transport and trade.

Thoie

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

- Knowing that there is a way to the car parks depends on understanding the orbital system. The advertising and signage for the orbital system is bizarre and impossible to understand, with lots of extraneous detail. The colourings used are completely non-standard. To that extent, I suppose you could say that the street signage is a big problem

Precisely. This thread has finally helped me find out what the signage means (here), and I'm staring at it aghast. While patently this leaflet was intended to help people, I've never seen it before, nor have I ever seen the explanations contained within it.

The map on page 1 makes my eyes hurt trying to figure out where I can go from where.

The sign colourings on page 2 are helpful, but in no way intuitive. I'll be driving into the city centre later today so will keep an eye out for them now - having tried to follow them in the past I've taken to just ignoring them recently, as they've never been any help. Taking the "approaching junction 17" example shown in that document.

If I want to get to the N11, I take the right turn there as directed, and this brings me down to J67, where, I'm assuming, I'll be directed to turn left along the canal. The next 3 junctions (including J64 - the N11) I'm not allowed to turn right. At this stage I'm a bit committed, so I'll drive on to J63 and turn right there. This forces me through Ballsbridge. If I knew where I was going I might be able to take an earlier right (along Burlington Road) and get on to the N11 that way. But if I knew where I was going I wouldn't need those damned stupid sign posts in the first place.

Putting a message on the M50 saying that College Green is closed to cars is tantamount to saying the south city is closed for business and that it would be better for motorists to go to a shopping centre in Fingal, DLRD or SDCC.

You know where else is better signposted than those places when you're on the M50 and being told that College Green is closed? Belfast.

dazberry

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Busgate is currently working very well for all cross-city Bus Atha Cliath routes...BUT !...Bus Atha Cliath alone does not a City`s Transport make.....The customers of Bus Eireann,Aircoach,Dualway,Morton and a score of other public bus services now benefit greatly from the belated priority now afforded Public Transport.

Are there any statistics on non-cross city bus services, specifically those that have to use the North quays, Christchurch, Thomas St, James St etc.?

D.