Who do you beleive contributed most to the recession

pseudo-tech

sydthebeat wrote: »

if anything it was under regulation...!!!!

developers demanded units designed to maximise profits and to suit minimum standards... ie designed for lowest common denominator.

planning offices did not have either the balls, or the expertise, to demand higher design standards. repetition of bland design was the order of the day. you cannot blame the designers, they are commissioned to carry out their employers brief. Planning offices alone had and have the power to demand higher architectural standards, but very very few do...

In the Planners defence, I know many of them who recommended a refusal to be over ruled by those senior to them. If you think about it the Local Authorities deal with the conflicting issues of doing right by all but also needing to generate revenue. How many planning decisions were overruled by the City/ County Manager who were purely thinking of the money to be made from financial contributions and not the greater good of the masses??

zootroid

I think we all contributed to it, banks, developers, the government, regulators, and global factors, but if I was to point the finger at one party being most responsible, it would be the government.

They ran pro-cyclical budgets, allowed inflation to get out of hand eroding our competitive advantage, did nothing to stop the country becoming so reliant on construction, created a structure whereby the regulator did nothing, and bought off every vested interest.

Their mistakes will be felt for a long time to come

blacksmith105

To be honest I think the regulator was to blame for not enforcing the stress test for mortages, personal loans etc and Yes we are all to blame for falling into the trap of the must have attitude .. I must have a new car , must have a 50 inch plasma , must have 3 holidays a year
Yes the banks and developers have to shoulder a portion of the blame but we as consumers knew we were getting ripped off and screwed by the high costs that we were prepared to put up with .
I went through a housing bubble and collapse once before in england and saw how it consumed people , i was lucky i bought my house 10 years ago and feel sorry for those who are in severe financial trouble

Berthram

I can remember back to the mid to late 90s when much investment advice was been given by the media and by commentators such as Colm Rapple and Gill Kirby to move to higher interest paying banks.
For example, the RTE show 'Live at 3' (a favourite with OAPs) had finincial advisers advising people to take there saving out of low interest 'safe' banks and post offices and invest with Northern Rock, who paid higher interests. (I did this myself).

To some extent, this encouragement to move into higher interest and risky investments was much to blame and did encourage the growth of 'dodgy' banks.

Fighting Irish

I think the ordinary people of Ireland have a huge responsibility in this recession.

Loans Loans Loans and Mortgages
Lets say back in 2004 the government made it so it was really difficult for banks to loan huge sums of money to people they thought were risky bets. We would have all bitched about that. People need to take responsibility for their actions.
Would we be as much **** if the people didn't pay crazy prices for houses?

sydthebeat

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Would we be as much **** if the people didn't pay crazy prices for houses?

people were battered and pressurised to "get on the ladder now!"

planning permissions were granted to fill an imaginary demand.

The demand was forged and falsified.

banks were lending money to developers to speculate and develop, and then they lent money to people to purchase these houses, whether it be a first time buyer or an investment home.

The demand was forged and falsified.

assuming theres approx 300,000 available homes currently unoccupied, and assuming we build on average 45,000 homes per year... and a stead 40% of those are rural one offs... thats approx 10 years worth of urban residential construction already in the system...

The demand was forged and falsified.

Rowley Birkin QC

County Councillors/Local government. Witless gob$hites with absolutely no concept of the word outside their electoral division. Time and again they ripped up Local Area Plans/County Development Plans and replaced zonings worked out with logic and needs assessments and replaced them with whatever lands were kicking back the most benefit to them.

Fighting Irish

sydthebeat wrote: »

people were battered and pressurised to "get on the ladder now!"


planning permissions were granted to fill an imaginary demand.

The demand was forged and falsified.

banks were lending money to developers to speculate and develop, and then they lent money to people to purchase these houses, whether it be a first time buyer or an investment home.

The demand was forged and falsified.

assuming theres approx 300,000 available homes currently unoccupied, and assuming we build on average 45,000 homes per year... and a stead 40% of those are rural one offs... thats approx 10 years worth of urban residential construction already in the system...

The demand was forged and falsified.

OK OK i'll take a 100% mortgage for €450K please

Seriously, everyone taught they were rich and they were not

"It was my dream home" - (90% of the houses in Ireland are nearly the exact same)

"I wanted stability for my kids"

"I wanted to put down roots"

"they have 50" TVs now?"

sydthebeat

Fighting Irish wrote: »

OK OK i'll take a 100% mortgage for €450K please

Seriously, everyone taught they were rich and they were not

"It was my dream home" - (90% of the houses in Ireland are nearly the exact same)

"I wanted stability for my kids"

"I wanted to put down roots"

"they have 50" TVs now?"

I agree to a point.... you cant say everyone though. There was a section of society who could see what was happening and didnt jump on the looney train.

I though that one person made a very good point on the aftershock programme when he said that there wa sthree main guilty parties, the person, the bank and the government, and each should take an equal share in the negative equity problem.

Obviously that wont happen though as both the banks and the government are stoney broke.

Fighting Irish

sydthebeat wrote: »

I agree to a point.... you cant say everyone though. There was a section of society who could see what was happening and didnt jump on the looney train.

I though that one person made a very good point on the aftershock programme when he said that there wa sthree main guilty parties, the person, the bank and the government, and each should take an equal share in the negative equity problem.

Obviously that wont happen though as both the banks and the government are stoney broke.

Sorry i should have mentioned that as well, but the poll options didn't include that. I think the banks/governments are to blame as well, but like i said, lets say it's 2004 and the banks/government try put a stop to people spending, the "looney train crew" would have a fit, the banks/gov gave the people what they wanted

Gurgle

sydthebeat wrote: »

There was a section of society who could see what was happening and didnt jump on the looney train.

Theres even a section of society who bought houses to live in without any expectation of selling in a year and retiring on the profits.

The vast majority of us are just working our jobs, paying our mortgages, and waiting for all the fuss to die down.

sydthebeat

Gurgle wrote: »

Theres even a section of society who bought houses to live in without any expectation of selling in a year and retiring on the profits.

The vast majority of us are just working our jobs, paying our mortgages, and waiting for all the fuss to die down.

point taken gugrle...

however, life doesnt stay static for most people.

relationships, children, job opportunities etc all require people to be able to alter their residential status easily.

these people however are trapped in unsuitable dwellings which they cannot get out of because of an over inflated market. Is it their fault,,,....???? maybe, pro rata however its more the fault of local and central government, banks and developers....

danbohan

sydthebeat wrote: »

people were battered and pressurised to "get on the ladder now!"

planning permissions were granted to fill an imaginary demand.

The demand was forged and falsified.

banks were lending money to developers to speculate and develop, and then they lent money to people to purchase these houses, whether it be a first time buyer or an investment home.

The demand was forged and falsified.

assuming theres approx 300,000 available homes currently unoccupied, and assuming we build on average 45,000 homes per year... and a stead 40% of those are rural one offs... thats approx 10 years worth of urban residential construction already in the system...

The demand was forged and falsified.

this generation , ie 20s 30s somethings who are most affected by this rescission are supposed to be our brightest , our best educated group of people ever , well taking that as a fact then surely your argument cant stand up , this is not a group of illiterates been sold some miracle cure in the 1800s, it was not battering or pressure , it was just good old fashioned GREED , and it was everybody , not just banks and developers.

sydthebeat

danbohan wrote: »

it was just good old fashioned GREED.

your argument doesnt stand up.....

the 20's 30's generation are the ones stuck with the 30-35 year 100% mortages in negative equity. They are not the ones with the second and third investment homes, holiday homes, apartments etc. Its the golden generation who were able to sell their rathmines side garden for €1 million. Its the farmers who were selling countless rural sites for €150K, or farm land on edges of villages for €1 million an acre.

They are the greedy ones.

those 20-30s who were coming from college, or just finished their trades apprenticeship, were the ones who were faced with the real fear of never being able to afford a home. they were the ones pressurised by media, banks and friends etc to get on the property ladder, by hook or by crook, (ironically by both, as it ended up).....

There are people out there who are in huge personal debt due to credit cards, HP purchases, personal holiday loans etc, and i have no sympathy for them at all.... thats stupidity and must be claimed as personal responsibility. i do have sympathy however for persons pressurized by a system set up for one goal... build and sell..... build and sell.... funded by banks who borrowed from the most risky type of investment schemes....

Fighting Irish

Gurgle wrote: »

Theres even a section of society who bought houses to live in without any expectation of selling in a year and retiring on the profits.

The vast majority of us are just working our jobs, paying our mortgages, and waiting for all the fuss to die down.

Yes but even those people paid way more than they should have

danbohan

sydthebeat wrote: »

your argument doesnt stand up.....

the 20's 30's generation are the ones stuck with the 30-35 year 100% mortages in negative equity. They are not the ones with the second and third investment homes, holiday homes, apartments etc. Its the golden generation who were able to sell their rathmines side garden for €1 million. Its the farmers who were selling countless rural sites for €150K, or farm land on edges of villages for €1 million an acre.

They are the greedy ones.

those 20-30s who were coming from college, or just finished their trades apprenticeship, were the ones who were faced with the real fear of never being able to afford a home. they were the ones pressurised by media, banks and friends etc to get on the property ladder, by hook or by crook, (ironically by both, as it ended up).....

There are people out there who are in huge personal debt due to credit cards, HP purchases, personal holiday loans etc, and i have no sympathy for them at all.... thats stupidity and must be claimed as personal responsibility. i do have sympathy however for persons pressurized by a system set up for one goal... build and sell..... build and sell.... funded by banks who borrowed from the most risky type of investment schemes....

so why did they buy , did they think ireland was different than uk in 90s or japan or sweden , the same thing happened there . people made their decision to buy ,these are not 4 your old kids we are talking about ,adults making adult decisions, no point blaming anybody else, banks developers etc

sydthebeat

danbohan wrote: »

so why did they buy , did they think ireland was different than uk in 90s or japan or sweden , the same thing happened there . people made their decision to buy ,these are not 4 your old kids we are talking about ,adults making adult decisions, no point blaming anybody else, banks developers etc

fair enough...

look at the poll results above for the general boards.ie consensus...

mleyden

I am more inclined to put the blame at the feet of the people who are supposed to be monitoring everything...

Why was nothing said when one sector (construction) became a huge part of our tax take?
Why was nobody monitoring house value vs. average industrial wage?
Why was nobody monitoring rental income vs. house price?

Why was Irish Life allowed to prop up Anglo?
Why was Quinn allowed to run Quinn Insurance in that manner?
(It now appears that all this stuff was know to the civil service)

Why do we pay these people? What is their function?

How many civil servants said 'STOP' to a politician? Do we have the same system as in the UK, where a civil servant will get a politician to 'sign-off' on something if they don't agree to it...?

I don't expect a bunch of teachers, solicitors, doctors & publicans (our politicians) to know ANYTHING about finance - however, I BLOODY WELL DO expect that we have hired civil servants who know how to run a country.

Unfortunately, history would suggest that the total opposite is true. We hire generalists, who specialise in nothing, who will stand up for nothing, and are accountable for nothing.

I could go on, but I am depressing myself!

As someone said to me: what would be wrong if we were run by the Germans - at least everything would work!