John O'Donoghue and his travel spending spree

bonzos

Deleted User wrote: »

Okay, we'll discuss this issue.

For starters, what crime did O'Donoghue commit. Please specify exact acts, sections etc. The Madoff comparison is pretty lame, do you realise that wrongs differ in type and scale?

Naming people who actually committed crimes and were convicted such as Nick Leeson, or making some frankly weird comment in Darby O'Gill speak (I think the internet phrase is 'wtf?') doesn't advance the argument at all.



I beg to differ too. Your argument is paper thin. You say O'Donoghue is the same as Nick Leeson, and Nick Leeson is no better than gangsters. Sure why don't they all get the exact same sentences too then?

I think the legal system and the tariffs handed down by the courts in this country and indeed in others (how much did your Nick Leeson serve and what is the tariff for gangland crime in Singapore?) would bear me out.

As for the 'you don't have to pull a trigger to destroy lives', I'm not sure anyone ever suggested otherwise. But a murderer, a rapist, a bank robber and someone who screws the expenses are not all the same deserving the same treatment and held in the same light. As I said, I can come back with an indication of penalties handed down by courts to show my opinion is not unusual.

Do you concider 73 flights between dublin and kerry in one year while he also has a garda driver following him around good value for the taxpayer?just because he is entitled to it does not make it right!we all know its not illegal,people are in jail tonight for not paying fines, maybe they should be entitled also to feed themselfs rather than pay a fine.this whole "entitled" attitude has this country on its knees...EG..robbie molloy FAS,gerry ryan,wasters in state jobs who cant be fired,all these have the same type of ego as o donoghue,the do you know who i am and im worth every penny of €500k PA etc..

bonzos

bonzos wrote: »

Do you concider 73 flights between dublin and kerry in one year while he also has a garda driver following him around good value for the taxpayer?just because he is entitled to it does not make it right!

I have used the words 'outrageous' and 'obscene' to describe his expenses. Neither of them are the same as saying the expenses were 'right'.

Raiser

Deleted User wrote: »

For starters, what crime did O'Donoghue commit. Please specify exact acts, sections etc. The Madoff comparison is pretty lame, do you realise that wrongs differ in type and scale?

You don't have to commit a crime or break the law to earn universal disrespect and deserved hatred. For example, A Civil Engineer is paid €120,000 per annum by the City Council to inspect and maintain a Bridge over a deep gorge diving a Primary School from a Bus stop. Due to an oversight in his contract however he is not legally/contractually obliged to look after the anchor points holding the Bridge in place.

Over the course of 20 years he watches these anchor points rust, degrade and weaken until one September afternoon they give way and 50 Children die, splattered on the rocks below.

This man hasn't broken any law either Conor, but there could not be any doubt in even the most feeble little mind that this man was acting in a morally wrong and reprehensible manner - suiting himself, benefitting inappropriately from a situation and contributing to the misery of others.

Deleted User wrote:

As for the 'you don't have to pull a trigger to destroy lives', I'm not sure anyone ever suggested otherwise. But a murderer, a rapist, a bank robber and someone who screws the expenses are not all the same deserving the same treatment and held in the same light. As I said, I can come back with an indication of penalties handed down by courts to show my opinion is not unusual.

The fact is that tax revenue is collected to:

Replace prefabs with actual schools.

Buy kidney Dialysis machines.

Extend Hospitals.

Place extra Gardai, Nurse, Teachers in our Communities.

Provide Cancer care within 300km of a sick wretched shell so they don't have to commute.

Provide special needs assistants to those poor Kids that are totally lost without them.

Buy books for (Thieving Publishers) school children.

Vacinate against cervical Cancer

***** This list could go on and on ******


None of the above is ever done, its promised by people like Diamond John O'Donoghue around election time and then forgotten about when he sits back in a Limo paid for by us.

In my opinion, every time John O'Donoghue abused our trust, indulged his huge greed and disrespected his electorate he stole from somebody less fortunate then himself.

The fact is that he should not be able to walk from his front door, to his car, to his Office without some form of peaceful but unambiguously clear protest following his every step while conveying our contempt and disgust until he resigns. We need to let him, his community and the Public at large know that we are not going to tolerate this type of behaviour any longer from any of our public representatives.

- Bring your Children to so that we may at last raise a generation of Children that have the spines to say no to this type of base greed and endemic corruption every time it raises its ugly head......


Emperor O'Donoghue has thoughtfully placed all of his Contact details in the Public Domain here

Constituency Office
14 Main Street, Cahirciveen, Co. Kerry.
Tel: 066-9473221
Fax: 066-9473222

Parliamentary Office
Dáil Éireann
Leinster House
Dublin 2
Ireland
Lo Call 1890 564 663
Tel + 353 1 618 4214
Fax + 353 1 618 4100
E-mail: ceann.comhairle@oireachtas.ie

Personal Assistant: Colin Miller M.C.C.
Mob: 087 246 6782
Tel: 064 37507
Fax: 064 37508

paddyland

If he were even some kind of political phenomenon who single handedly revolutionised the country, health, education, or solved the Northern Ireland issue, or in some way made a historical contribution to the wellbeing of generations of future Irish men and women, you might say well fair play to him, he left a wonderful legacy, let him have a few years of comfortable indulgence.

But can anyone tell me what that wig wearing buffoon ever contributed to anyone or anything???

All I remember him for was peddling a blatant LIE about zero tolerance years ago, ANYTHING to get Fianna Fáil elected again in one of Bertie's famous 'sell the family china' giveaways, knowing full well that he had no intention of ever delivering on it when in power.

For me he is a liar and charlatan, and nothing else. Perhaps he was good for a few of the Kerry 'party faithful,' got them some dubious planning decisions, a few bob for the GAA, or whatever, but on a national level I can find NOTHING he ever contributed.

He is a leech, a bloodsucker, and represents everything that is wrong with Fianna Fáil the Bertie Party, and politics in Ireland today.

thebman

Deleted User wrote: »

Okay, we'll discuss this issue.

For starters, what crime did O'Donoghue commit. Please specify exact acts, sections etc. The Madoff comparison is pretty lame, do you realise that wrongs differ in type and scale?

Naming people who actually committed crimes and were convicted such as Nick Leeson, or making some frankly weird comment in Darby O'Gill speak (I think the internet phrase is 'wtf?') doesn't advance the argument at all.



I beg to differ too. Your argument is paper thin. You say O'Donoghue is the same as Nick Leeson, and Nick Leeson is no better than gangsters. Sure why don't they all get the exact same sentences too then?

I think the legal system and the tariffs handed down by the courts in this country and indeed in others (how much did your Nick Leeson serve and what is the tariff for gangland crime in Singapore?) would bear me out.

As for the 'you don't have to pull a trigger to destroy lives', I'm not sure anyone ever suggested otherwise. But a murderer, a rapist, a bank robber and someone who screws the expenses are not all the same deserving the same treatment and held in the same light. As I said, I can come back with an indication of penalties handed down by courts to show my opinion is not unusual.

You ignore all the things we have done without so he could have those expenses that he knows about too.

As for not breaking laws, surely the politicians would have to stricten laws on their own expenses? So they are policing themselves. Seems they aren't very good at it. System needs changing.

Riskymove

what I find funniest is the focus on O'Donoghue as if he is some sort of one-off ...the politician's expense system has been in place for decades...now all of a sudden its a big issue and O'Donoghue should resign?

TD's get expenses to travel to the dail, those furthest away get the most, the Ceann Comhairle and Leas-Ceann Comhairle get a (very large) allowance for doing that job, Chairs of committees get an allowance etc etc etc

we dont need O'Donoghue to resign...we need the system to be changed..starting with a reduction in the number of TDs and a proper examination of how the system works


@Conor74: I wouldn't bother trying to debate the populalist ranting and constant changing of position by some, I tried pointing out a few facts and was basically accussed of being the Bull's brother or something...

paddyland

Ah but the best way of changing it that I can see, is first of all, make a show of eliminating these scroungers and leeches, O'Donoghue being a prime example. Send the message that these snake oil merchants won't be tolerated any more.

Then let the next generation who come in to replace them, begin the process of change, with the ringing sound of necks on the block in their ears.

There will never be change under the current crop of self serving charlatans. Get rid of them first, be seen to get rid of them ruthlessly, and then bring about the change necessary.

Raiser

Riskymove wrote:

what I find funniest is the focus on O'Donoghue as if he is some sort of one-off ...the politician's expense system has been in place for decades...now all of a sudden its a big issue and O'Donoghue should resign?

I'd find it funnier if you expected people to drop all of their standards and expectations of decency and just pardon his inexcusable, ignorant behaviour because he happens to have precedents - he is not entitled to emulate Haughey.

Riskymove wrote:

TD's get expenses to travel to the dail, those furthest away get the most, the Ceann Comhairle and Leas-Ceann Comhairle get a (very large) allowance for doing that job, Chairs of committees get an allowance etc etc etc

Were you under the impression that he was in Melbourne? Its south Kerry, consult a map.

Riskymove wrote:

we dont need O'Donoghue to resign...we need the system to be changed..starting with a reduction in the number of TDs and a proper examination of how the system works

FYP -

Riskymove wrote:

we dont need O'Donoghue to resign...we need O'Donoghue to resign AND the system to be changed..starting with a reduction in the number of TDs and a proper examination of how the system works - And for people to stop condoning their behaviour on flimsy pretences of arguments

Riskymove wrote:

@Conor74: I wouldn't bother trying to debate the populalist ranting and constant changing of position by some, I tried pointing out a few facts and was basically accussed of being the Bull's brother or something...

I don't think anyone here who grew up in Ireland needed to be reminded of the spin, joyous exploitation of loopholes and default just-add-water excuses that certain dyed in the wool Ógra FF, the devout relatives of elected FF'ers or whatever trot out every time one of these debates comes up.

- We can see through the smoke-screen, smell the Bullshít and it always leaves a bitter taste in our mouths.......

Stark

Riskymove wrote: »

what I find funniest is the focus on O'Donoghue as if he is some sort of one-off ...the politician's expense system has been in place for decades...now all of a sudden its a big issue and O'Donoghue should resign?

He should resign as a precedent to others resigning. To get the ball rolling as you will. This has been going on for far too long. MPs in Britain are resigning over this carry-on, the same thing needs to happen here if our political system is to have any credibility.

Riskymove

Ah raiser you are still at it

I am not and have not been defending O'Donoghue, at no point have I asked people to ignore the issues around his expenses or excuse his excesses ; your wish to ignore any rational debate about how the expense system needs to be changed in order to rant about FF and accuse all and sundry of being pro-FF simply for wanting to put forward a few facts is always amusing

South Kerry is among the furthest points from the Dail therefore he gets more in travel expenses than a TD from Meath, this is simply a fact and an issue with the way the system is currently set up and one that needs changing.

focussing on O'Donoghue resigning rather than an approach to changing the system is a mistake. He is highly unlikely to resign for the sad fact that the people who matter most in that scenario, his constituents, wont want it and will happily re-elect him until he retires and then one of his kids can takeover.

The problem is that all TDs benefit from this system of expenses and have done for years, they will not get involved or resign just because all of a sudden people are annoyed about it.

The quite seperate issue about O'Donoghue's activities while Minister is of far more concern and leaves many unanswered questions but focussing on this standard TD expenses is a mistake.

Riskymove

Stark wrote: »

MPs in Britain are resigning over this carry-on, the same thing needs to happen here if our political system is to have any credibility.

this is not quite accurate, they are very different

MPs resigned over payments towards mortgages that did not exist, getting their moats cleaned at public expense etc....not for staying in hotels that were viewed as being more expensive than necessary etc.

for me they are very different

Raiser

Riskymove wrote: »

Ah raiser you are still at it

I am not and have not been defending O'Donoghue, at no point have I asked people to ignore the issues around his expenses or excuse his excesses ; your wish to ignore any rational debate about how the expense system needs to be changed in order to rant about FF and accuse all and sundry of being pro-FF simply for wanting to put forward a few facts is always amusing

South Kerry is among the furthest points from the Dail therefore he gets more in travel expenses than a TD from Meath, this is simply a fact and an issue with the way the system is currently set up and one that needs changing.

focussing on O'Donoghue resigning rather than an approach to changing the system is a mistake. He is highly unlikely to resign for the sad fact that the people who matter most in that scenario, his constituents, wont want it and will happily re-elect him until he retires and then one of his kids can takeover.

The problem is that all TDs benefit from this system of expenses and have done for years, they will not get involved or resign just because all of a sudden people are annoyed about it.

The quite seperate issue about O'Donoghue's activities while Minister is of far more concern and leaves many unanswered questions but focussing on this standard TD expenses is a mistake.

Throughout the thread you have put forward Straw man arguments so poor that it seems to indicate that you scarcely believe your own rhetoric.

Your exasperated mutterings about how we are all failing to see the wood from the trees don't seem genuine and you almost seem embarrassed to find yourself instead defending the rot in the trees.

Your assertion that people are behaving in any manner other than one borne of impatient disgust is untrue and patently disingenuous.

- In fact if the repetitive, formulaic mantras and strangely off-target assertions were removed from your posted text entirely - then I'd suspect we'd be left with a curious collection of unaccompanied punctuation marks

Riskymove wrote: »

this is not quite accurate, they are very different

MPs resigned over payments towards mortgages that did not exist, getting their moats cleaned at public expense etc....not for staying in hotels that were viewed as being more expensive than necessary etc.

for me they are very different

Do you think a Politician who is trying to line his own pockets is happy to instead simply hand over the money to Airlines, Hotels, Limo Companies, Restaurants etc.?

In my opinion people are irate because they believe that Irish Politicians expenses are grossly falsified in the act of making a massive supplementary income.

- We are quiet happy if John O'Donoghue is the first of many to accept justice and its consequences.....

Riskymove

Throughout the thread you have put forward Straw man arguments so poor that it seems to indicate that you scarcely believe your own rhetoric.

Your exasperated mutterings about how we are all failing to see the wood from the trees don't seem genuine and you almost seem embarrassed to find yourself instead defending the rot in the trees.

what arguments? what defending of the rot?:rolleyes:

If you mean that i point out a few facts about the current workings of the system and what I think needs to be changed? I dont see what the problem is

Is it a straw main argument to point out to you the reason in the difference between the expenses for Tony Killeen and brendan Howlin? or any of the other facts i have put forward simply to inform people

I am not embarrassed at all not to blindly react to populalist statements

I am not defending anyone in this thread

Your assertion that people are behaving in any manner other than one borne of impatient disgust is untrue and patently disingenuous.

what such assertion? are you living in reality?

I hope yopu enjoyed crafting the prose in your last post, even if there is no basis for it..:rolleyes:

Riskymove

Raiser wrote: »

Do you think a Politician who is trying to line his own pockets is happy to instead simply hand over the money to Airlines, Hotels, Limo Companies, Restaurants etc.?

In my opinion people are irate because they believe that Irish Politicians expenses are grossly falsified in the act of making a massive supplementary income.

- We are quiet happy if John O'Donoghue is the first of many to accept justice and its consequences.....

some more facts for you so

1. The hotel bills, limo transfers etc that are of concern to people while O'Donoghue was Minister were almost certainly arranged by Departments/embassies and paid for them by those Department/embassies; not given to O'Donoghue as expenses (this does not excuse the amount spent on overly expensive hotels or other items)

2. with the unvouched system for TDs at present is that they need not falsify anything to get large supplementary incomes; the current travel and other allowances system is ridiculous and in my opinion needs to be tackled

Raiser

Raiser wrote: »

one September afternoon they give way and 50 Children die, splattered on the rocks below.

This man hasn't broken any law either Conor, but there could not be any doubt in even the most feeble little mind that this man was acting in a morally wrong and reprehensible manner

:D:D

This forum needs a 'rolling on the floor laughing' emoticon.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure, raiser, hiring a pricey limo is exactly the same as being responsible for the deaths of 50 schoolkids in a rail disaster on a September afternoon. The similarities are eerie. And you are right too, the most feeble little mind would spot that straight away.

What punishment should be meted out to someone responsible for 50 kids dying? Well of course O'Donoghue should face the same. Will we have enough prison space for all the other TDs who have overclaimed on expenses or is there a hierarchy? Maybe feet roasting for a car hire where a bus will do, testicles rigged to batteries for a 5 star hotel when a 3 star would have done the job etc. etc.

I like this thread, it amuses me...

thebman

Riskymove wrote: »

what I find funniest is the focus on O'Donoghue as if he is some sort of one-off ...the politician's expense system has been in place for decades...now all of a sudden its a big issue and O'Donoghue should resign?

Who cares if its been there for decades. I think you'll find people have been calling for reform in this time and it has been ignored. Newspapers going back years have been going on about politicians expenses. They wouldn't write it if they thought people didn't want to read it and know about it.

This is nothing new. People have wanted reform for years. Elected representatives have been ignoring them for years too.

@Conor74: I wouldn't bother trying to debate the populalist ranting and constant changing of position by some, I tried pointing out a few facts and was basically accussed of being the Bull's brother or something...

Populist nonsense, you mean the will of the people?
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=populist

Riskymove

thebman wrote: »

Who cares if its been there for decades. I think you'll find people have been calling for reform in this time and it has been ignored. Newspapers going back years have been going on about politicians expenses. They wouldn't write it if they thought people didn't want to read it and know about it.

This is nothing new. People have wanted reform for years. Elected representatives have been ignoring them for years too.

but thats my point, why is there such indignancy over the expenses listed yesterday? is it any different than any other year...and why the focus on O'donoghue

Populist nonsense, you mean the will of the people?
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=populist

ah yes, dont debate the points and act pedantic...did you get a nice feeling from that

thebman

Riskymove wrote: »

but thats my point, why is there such indignancy over the expenses listed yesterday? is it any different than any other year...and why the focus on O'donoghue

I think people are madder this time because of the current economic situation, the media are aware of this and have been pushing this agenda for years and people are mad so its getting continued attention. People and the media have been calling for reform on this for years and more and more people calling for it since tax increases have come in.

At the end of the day, you pick one person, attack them and sacrifice them to force change. You need a face for it. Thats just how the media works. You can't point at a group of people because there is no focus if you do that. I don't have a problem with him being the fall guy. He certainly has been taking the p*** on expenses from what I can see so he deserves the attention as much as the others. You have to focus on someone or the issue won't get the momentum needed to force change.

ah yes, dont debate the points and act pedantic...did you get a nice feeling from that

Just saying, populism isn't always a bad thing. Its the only way the people can seem to get things they want these days. Otherwise they are just ignored until election time.

Stark

Riskymove wrote: »

but thats my point, why is there such indignancy over the expenses listed yesterday? is it any different than any other year...and why the focus on O'donoghue

All we have to protect taxpayer's money at present is a system of self imposed "guidelines". Since politicians make the laws, this isn't going to change any time soon. Unless people with access to the public purse realise that there are consequences for flagrant abuse of public moneys, then next year will be the same as this year and previous years. If we have to pick someone to make an example of to achieve this, then so be it.

If this guy was an employee of a private organisation, he would be shown the door. These guys work for us and we pay them handsomely for it. We have a right to ask them to step down when they give us the two fingered salute.

Stark

Stark wrote: »

We have a right to ask them to step down if they show blatant disregard for us.

It shouldn't even have to come to that. If he had some decency, he'd make a statement. If there is no satisfactory justification for those expenses, he himself should stand down. On a wider point if it sparks off a witchunt similar to the UK and leads to a purge across all parties, so be it.

I don't expect either a statement or standing down though.

Riskymove

Stark wrote: »

If this guy was an employee of a private organisation, he would be shown the door.

no he would not, thats the problem, the expenses are what the system allows, why would you be fired?

people should remember there are two distinct things here in relation to O'Donoghue

1. the €380k odd expenses outlined yesterday (along with other TDs)

2. monies spent while he was a mInister

with regard to 1 while I agree the amounts are massive, it is what the system provides for. we might not be happy with it but we cannot simply focus on one person and say that that person should resign for simply being given what the system pays all TDs in allowances.

with regard to 2 there are definitely issues here and O'Donoghue should comment on some of the details, particularly an apparant demanding of the most expensive hotels etc. if he really is going around insisting on extravagance then he has a case to answer

In relation to some items (e.g. airport transfer, Limo etc) its clear that irish embassies abroad arrange most of this and is certainly something that needs to be tackled; again it seems people want to blame O'Donoghue for what most politicans travelling abroad are provided with.

Stark

Riskymove wrote: »

no he would not, thats the problem, the expenses are what the system allows, why would you be fired?

If your employer gave you a set of guidelines for corporate travel and you blatantly ignored them, would you expect there to be no consequences?

Riskymove

Stark wrote: »

If your employer gave you a set of guidelines for corporate travel and you blatantly ignored them, would you expect there to be no consequences?

but again this is my point, no guidelines were broken

the system is the problem

Raiser

Riskymove wrote: »

no he would not, thats the problem, the expenses are what the system allows, why would you be fired?

people should remember there are two distinct things here in relation to O'Donoghue

1. the €380k odd expenses outlined yesterday (along with other TDs)

2. monies spent while he was a mInister

with regard to 1 while I agree the amounts are massive, it is what the system provides for. we might not be happy with it but we cannot simply focus on one person and say that that person should resign for simply being given what the system pays all TDs in allowances.

with regard to 2 there are definitely issues here and O'Donoghue should comment on some of the details, particularly an apparant demanding of the most expensive hotels etc. if he really is going around insisting on extravagance then he has a case to answer

In relation to some items (e.g. airport transfer, Limo etc) its clear that irish embassies abroad arrange most of this and is certainly something that needs to be tackled; again it seems people want to blame O'Donoghue for what most politicans travelling abroad are provided with.

The goods were really delivered in this Thread as early as post # 9:

FuzzyLogic wrote: »

I've worked with this guy personally 1 on 1, and his staff on a number of occasions.
From personal experience, I have little doubt that he pushed his staff for the most expensive stuff on these junkets. Thats his style, and anybody who has known him or worked for/with him, will, if they are honest will agree. I've seen him belittle things he considered cheap, and I can certainly imagine him doing the same on a larger scale on the junkets abroad.

I'm light on details for privacy reasons. Screw my NDAs, but this guy is a class A c0ckhead, and considers himself a cut above the rest. I've seen him throw actual temper tantrums(throwing stuff at his staff) because he didn't get what he wanted. No wonder his staff have the taxpayer pay for only the best hotels/limos for him...

But really what will happen in the end? Debate on boards? Not a lot else, I would imagine.
I have no anti government/FF agenda, but I thought I'd throw my thoughts into the pot as thankfully I no longer work with these clowns.

Riskymove

ah yes, anonymous posting of anecdote and opinion

good enough for me...hang him!!

Raiser

Riskymove wrote: »

ah yes, anonymous posting of anecdote and opinion

Surely you mean yourself? - You're beginning to sound more and more like an FF Spindoctor.........

- You're either his Mammy, Uncle, Friend or are on his Staff........!!!

Riskymove wrote:

good enough for me...hang him!!

- HEAR, HEAR!!!!!!!

Riskymove

yes..you got me this time...I am in fact John O'Donoghue's mammy

thebman

Riskymove wrote: »

ah yes, anonymous posting of anecdote and opinion

good enough for me...hang him!!

Fuzzy is a fairly well known around here AFAIK. Don't think he's the type to make up crap (scratch that I know he wouldn't bother his arse making it up).

Stark

Yeah plenty of people around here have known him in RL for years. If he was bull****ting about his history, then there'd be plenty in a position to call him out on it.

Raiser

Riskymove wrote: »

yes..you got me this time...I am in fact John O'Donoghue's mammy

thebman wrote: »

Fuzzy is a fairly well known around here AFAIK. Don't think he's the type to make up crap (scratch that I know he wouldn't bother his arse making it up).

Stark wrote: »

Yeah plenty of people around here have known him in RL for years. If he was bull****ting about his history, then there'd be plenty in a position to call him out on it.

I was going to say that all the Lads know John O'Donoghue's Ma very well too - But I'd only be accused of being unfair on the poor Son of a Bitch......