A5 - Derry Dual Carraigeway

NITransport

Good to hear the enquiry is underway - probably the most contentious of recent years! Going by past schemes such as the Dungannon - Ballygawley works, it could be 18months+ until we see construction underway.

Could someone though clarify what works exactly will take part in the south on the N2?

dubhthach

NITransport wrote: »

Good to hear the enquiry is underway - probably the most contentious of recent years! Going by past schemes such as the Dungannon - Ballygawley works, it could be 18months+ until we see construction underway.

Could someone though clarify what works exactly will take part in the south on the N2?

Well as you can imagine with the current fiancial situation we are kinda in the dark here. Supposedly there is a review going on regarding transport/infrastructure projects so we probably won't know anything until at least October.

Of course along with the anti-A5 groups in the North you have the "Don't bypass the Bypass" group here who are in alliance.

Proposed route alignments can be found on Monaghan County Council site here:
http://www.monaghan.ie/websitev2/roads/N2Clontibret/DocumentsAndDownloads.html

These seem to be quite recent (Feb this year)

dubhthach

Potential routes -- Big PDF (17MB)
http://www.monaghan.ie/websitev2/download/pdf/roads/2011/N2Realignment/Displays/04B%20N2C2NI%20PCM3%20Display%20-%20Route%20Corridor%20Options%20Map.pdf

NITransport

Cheers for the information Dubhthach!

I'd guess that the N2 improvements would be put on hold and is less priority than say the M20. I've read the rambles of the DBTB action group before and some of their arguments are ridiculous!

I've read through that report as well with interesting facts like with a dual carriageway in place there'd be 3 times less accidents than currently experienced on the N2.

But do you know if they're still trying to work out what the upgrade would be, or just where to place it. Is it going to be just continue on as 2+1, or standard dual/expressway or HQDC?

Cheers,

NT

dubhthach

NITransport wrote: »

Cheers for the information Dubhthach!

I'd guess that the N2 improvements would be put on hold and is less priority than say the M20. I've read the rambles of the DBTB action group before and some of their arguments are ridiculous!

I've read through that report as well with interesting facts like with a dual carriageway in place there'd be 3 times less accidents than currently experienced on the N2.

But do you know if they're still trying to work out what the upgrade would be, or just where to place it. Is it going to be just continue on as 2+1, or standard dual/expressway or HQDC?

Cheers,

NT

Well I not sure tbh I just did a quick google this morning to see what the latest was (I had a vague memory of proposals 6 months ago). I would assume it's 2+2 mainly as 2+1 has been "obsoleted" as a design spec by the NRA. The castleblaney bypass is one of the few bits of 2+1 so I wouldn't be surprised if they want to upgrade that to 2+2 as well.

Been from Galway I remember viewing the selected route for the M6 Galway to Ballinasloe back in 2003. Of course instead of starting it and getting it done by 2006 they delayed it and all the other inter-urbans by about 4 years. (Money went to digging the hole we currently in!)

So even if they do get route selection down on this road (N2) by end of this year I can't honestly see anything been done before 2020.

NITransport

Ah thanks again. Good to hear that if and most importantly when it goes ahead, it should be 2+2 as opposed to +1. I wouldn't hold my breathe for the improvements to happen any time soon either, but hopefully the A5 will continue to progress and we'll have better connectivity with Dublin than we have now at least!

Regarding Galway and the M6, the story really is repeated time and time again.

Hopefully the scheme will continue to be progressed as far as possible without major funding in the mean time.

Amtmann

THE GOVERNMENT and the Northern Ireland Executive have been urged to tell road engineers to come up with a more cost-effective design for a route linking Aughnacloy, Co Tyrone, with Derry.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny was quoted last week as saying those involved in the A5 dual-carriageway project should “look at making savings” as the current plan would involve the Government making a contribution of €460 million. At a public inquiry in Co Tyrone yesterday, PlanBetter – a joint initiative involving An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Feasta and Friends of the Irish Environment – called on the two governments to issue fresh instructions to the road engineers.

The inquiry is examining proposals by the Northern Ireland Roads Service for a new 85km dual-carriageway from New Buildings, outside Derry, to Aughnacloy where it would join a new dual-carriageway being planned for the N2. “The current instructions given to roads engineers lock North and South into a high-cost venture,” said James Nix, of PlanBetter.

“Unusually, no lower cost alternative has been brought forward to compare against a greenfield dual-carriageway.” He said the project brief, agreed between Northern Ireland and the Republic at the height of the boom in 2007, called for the 85km four-lane road running substantially in parallel to the existing A5 from Derry to the border with Co Monaghan.

PlanBetter maintained that traffic volumes “provide no justification for the quantum of spending this involves” and that the alternative of undertaking “selected upgrades” to enhance the existing A5 was “clearly the most practical option”.

The estimated cost of the project is £800 million (€920 million), with £400 million (€460 million) to come from the Republic.

“Subsequent events have highlighted the ill-considered nature of a great deal of decision-making in the Celtic Tiger boom-time period, and the treatment of cross-Border road spending was unfortunately no different,” Mr Nix said.

Local residents, the A5 Alternative Alliance, Belfast-based roads engineers and environmental bodies from both North and South have made detailed representations to the inquiry in favour of upgrading the existing road.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0513/1224296840564.html

L1011

Planbetter must have realised we all think they're cranks down here...

dubhthach

MYOB wrote: »

Planbetter must have realised we all think they're cranks down here...

Well it's a whole new market for them to expand into. I doubt most people in Tyrone have ever heard of "An Taisce"

NITransport

Whats the liklihood of Planbetter being listened too, from what I can see they seem to have been ignored plenty times before!

dubhthach

NITransport wrote: »

Whats the liklihood of Planbetter being listened too, from what I can see they seem to have been ignored plenty times before!

Indeed, with the recent assembly elections up there whose going to get the transport portfolio? What political implications are there that could come into play depending whose got the brief etc?

NITransport

Indeed, with the recent assembly elections up there whose going to get the transport portfolio? What political implications are there that could come into play depending whose got the brief etc?

Well from reading the Belfast Telegraph it does speculate that under the d'hondt system, DUP gets first pick which will be Finance, Sinn Fein gets second and it's looking at going for Enterprise and Investment. UUP then get the third pick and because of they publicly dislike the scheme they could try and go for Regional development. I doubt they'll go for Health and if they did go for Regional Development, you could probably say goodbye to the scheme completely.

However with the on going negiotations in Stormont, the Telegraph believes Sinn Fein will retain the DRD with Martina Anderson who's from Derry taking the reigns whilst Conor Murphy moves to the Department of Enterprise. I'm sure Martina or any MLA that took the post would continue supporting the A5 scheme. And if Sinn Fein does take contol of Enterprise, more FDI might go to the North West which would make the arguement for the A5 improvement works stronger than ever! This is merely speculation and we won't get the whole picture until Monday.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

NITransport

Could the UUP's ministry jeopardise the scheme?

I seen this as it unfolded on Twitter too. And the A5 has been a hot topic on both Twitter and Sabre. A journalist from the Ulster Herald had stated that several Tyrone based UUP MLA's openly supported the scheme, and looking at the UUPs election manifesto, it said only a an urgent review of the A5 would be carried out, which doesn't really sound like strong opposition, especially when it is what they were elected on.

The person who is most against the scheme is non other than Tom Elliott himself, and to be honest, it is highly likely that his leadership will be contested in coming weeks/months after the poor performance during the election and his outburst. Fingers crossed for the more moderate Basil McCrea to take the mantle.

Finally, there is no point in tug-a-war politics because if the UUP backtrack on SF's work over the past assembly, during the next term, under the d'Hondt scheme, SF will probably choose the Department of Regional Department first before the UUP can, and reinstate the postponed schemes... and ultimately, nothing will get done! I'm hoping that we will see a more mature level of politics in North finally... and it could be in this next term!

lucernarian

Thinking about this, I would take a dual carriageway from Omagh (including a full bypass as in the existing plan) to Derry if it meant it would be more likely to happen and there was less opposition as well as less cost.

The road network in Aughnacloy and to the south is bad in particular but better some sort of dual carriageway than a delayed project heading into another decade perhaps?

Jayuu

NITransport wrote: »

Well from reading the Belfast Telegraph it does speculate that under the d'hondt system, DUP gets first pick which will be Finance, Sinn Fein gets second and it's looking at going for Enterprise and Investment. UUP then get the third pick and because of they publicly dislike the scheme they could try and go for Regional development. I doubt they'll go for Health and if they did go for Regional Development, you could probably say goodbye to the scheme completely.

Looks like you had your finger on the pulse here, NITransport!

From today's Irish Times: "Danny Kennedy, the North’s new Minister for Regional Development, has said he would favour reducing the scope of the A5, probably by improving the existing route rather than proceeding with the new dual-carriageway now being proposed.

In response to a caller to BBC Radio Ulster’s Talkback programme, the Ulster Unionist MLA said many people were concerned by the state of the roads in the North and big schemes like the A5 were taking money away from small rural roads."

Full article here

charlemont

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/kenny-commits-to-motorway-in-north-2659629.html

Chris_5339762

I always find it hilarious that the border - Derry is being pushed through as quickly as possible. It connects to the N2. Whats on the N2 still? Slane.

Unless the M1 is signed as the main route to Derry via Ardee, you CANT have Slane sandwiched between the M2 and upgraded A5.

lucernarian

I was talking to someone today who told me they actually come to Dublin from Derry by the A6 to Belfast and then straight down the M1 with its advantages of overtaking and higher speed limits. The Glenshane pass is the only bad part of the route. Apparently half an hour quicker but I'm not sure what speed limits were being respected in doing that!

sdanseo

The county town of Co Donegal is only a few miles north of Sligo, which itself needs upgrading. Makes HUGE amounts more sense to upgrade the N5 to M5. Derry, while in a utopic world would be in the Republic, is NOT, and we shouldn't be building a motorway to it. Build it instead to SLigo and HQDC from the into Donegal town. Let the UK build their own roads.

NITransport

Sdonn, er, Donegal town isn't the biggest town in Donegal. It's Letterkenny, which is close to Derry and the shortest distance between the biggest pop in Donegal and Dublin goes right through Northern Ireland. The UK is still going to pay a majority of the scheme but the ROI gets benefit from it too! Plus the Southern Government has to think, should the "Utopic" day ever come, do they want to have to invest in NI, or would they rather it comes in a turn key package. I'd rather not have to spend money doing up NI's infrastructure at the last minute.

lucernarian

There's an argument to say that the state should be making itself busy improving the deplorable N14 and bypassing Lifford/building the new bridge to link up with the A5 first if they were interested in the connectivity of Letterkenny and much of Donegal. Letterkenny's own traffic situation is not that great I believe either.

L1011

sdonn wrote: »

The county town of Co Donegal is only a few miles north of Sligo, which itself needs upgrading. Makes HUGE amounts more sense to upgrade the N5 to M5. Derry, while in a utopic world would be in the Republic, is NOT, and we shouldn't be building a motorway to it. Build it instead to SLigo and HQDC from the into Donegal town. Let the UK build their own roads.

Couple of issues here...

1: The county town of Donegal is Lifford.
2: The road to Donegal Town from Dublin via Sligo needs minimal work to make it an acceptable standard the entire way. This scheme: http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/SligoCountyCouncil/N4CollooneyCastlebaldwin/SchemeName,16443,en.html

would make it tolerable virtually the entire way.

sdanseo

MYOB wrote: »

Couple of issues here...

1: The county town of Donegal is Lifford.
2: The road to Donegal Town from Dublin via Sligo needs minimal work to make it an acceptable standard the entire way. This scheme: http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/SligoCountyCouncil/N4CollooneyCastlebaldwin/SchemeName,16443,en.html

would make it tolerable virtually the entire way.

...makes my case for an M4 from Sligo to Mullingar even more appropriate. It would serve more of, y'know, the country paying for it.

On second thouhgts...perhaps an extended M3 would be better. Nobody would use the M4 to get to Derry (but it would still serve more places than this proposed M2) - but an M3 to Eniskillen, Omagh and Derry would go through less of NI, cost less because there is already motorway as far as Kells, and doesn't have the basket case that is Slane in the way.

For example...red is M2 Blue with Green N-road D2 spur is M3:

Jayuu

sdonn wrote: »

On second thouhgts...perhaps an extended M3 would be better. Nobody would use the M4 to get to Derry (but it would still serve more places than this proposed M2) - but an M3 to Eniskillen, Omagh and Derry would go through less of NI, cost less because there is already motorway as far as Kells, and doesn't have the basket case that is Slane in the way.

I suggested a while back that to make the M3 more useful it could actually move back towards Clones and Monaghan after Cavan and link in with the A5 to Derry. That way you would take traffic away from the N2 route and give a full motorway/dual-carraigeway link between Dublin and Derry.

I know that wouldn't do much for a lot of Donegal traffic. Personally I do think there is a case for the N4 being upgraded as much as possible and improvements in the Donegal links to Sligo.

L1011

sdonn wrote: »

...makes my case for an M4 from Sligo to Mullingar even more appropriate.

How does replacing a higher standard of road that already got huge upgrades in the 1990s/2000s with a motorway become more justified than replacing a poor quality road that runs through towns and villages?

As I said, there is one poor section of the N4 which the NRA plans to replace.

And also, Lifford is served by the A5, not the N4.

Pete_Cavan

Jayuu wrote: »

I suggested a while back that to make the M3 more useful it could actually move back towards Clones and Monaghan after Cavan and link in with the A5 to Derry. That way you would take traffic away from the N2 route and give a full motorway/dual-carraigeway link between Dublin and Derry.

I know that wouldn't do much for a lot of Donegal traffic. Personally I do think there is a case for the N4 being upgraded as much as possible and improvements in the Donegal links to Sligo.

Sending the M3 back towards Clones and Monaghan after Cavan is a ridiculous idea - Monaghan traffic already uses the M1 to get to Dublin and would continue to do so because it would be a shorter journey than this new M. The M3 should bypass Virginia and head across to Carrick-on-Shannon and continue on to Sligo (as per the link MYOB provided). The M3 is currently well under capacity so using it to serve Cavan, Leitrim, Sligo, north Longford, north Roscommon and south Donegal makes more sense and makes better use of existing infrastructure than developing two routes (N3 & N4) and sending most of this traffic down the M4 which is quickly reaching capacity on approach to Dublin.

The N2 is grand if it follows the N33 at Ardee and the existing N2 between Ardee and Dublin is detruncked.

Chris_5339762

I also think that the big problem with this scheme is that its being pushed as the be-all-and-end-all with x kilometres of 2+2 or motorway in the north with little to no realistic prospects of any of the route in the REPUBLIC being done soon. You're going to get a nice bit of DC with cart tracks on either side and a very long time before those cart tracks get fixed. It just seems that the money that will be spent on this scheme could be better distributed elsewhere in the system.

D.L.R.

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I also think that the big problem with this scheme is that its being pushed as the be-all-and-end-all with x kilometres of 2+2 or motorway in the north with little to no realistic prospects of any of the route in the REPUBLIC being done soon. You're going to get a nice bit of DC with cart tracks on either side and a very long time before those cart tracks get fixed. It just seems that the money that will be spent on this scheme could be better distributed elsewhere in the system.

+1. Like you say, without its southern counterpart, all this road does is connect a few rural towns to a smallish city. But of course, politics are involved, and there is something of a "peace dividend" in play. Especially for NI nationalists.

For me, this is just the northern leg of a ham-fisted interurban motorway program, where the skill of the road engineers was unfortunately not matched by the skills of the route planners, who were busy chanting to the failed mantra of "decentralisation".

Instead of just focussing on connecting all the cities to eachother with as little motorway as possible, they elected to route past every B&B and half way house in the midlands. The legacy is an empty motorway here, an unresolved bottleneck there.

This attitude has somehow managed to cross the border, and I fear this is ultimately another road that does't quite live up to its price tag.

Richard

sdonn wrote: »

...makes my case for an M4 from Sligo to Mullingar even more appropriate. It would serve more of, y'know, the country paying for it.

On second thouhgts...perhaps an extended M3 would be better. Nobody would use the M4 to get to Derry (but it would still serve more places than this proposed M2) - but an M3 to Eniskillen, Omagh and Derry would go through less of NI, cost less because there is already motorway as far as Kells, and doesn't have the basket case that is Slane in the way.

For example...red is M2 Blue with Green N-road D2 spur is M3:

Northern Ireland already has an M2 and and M3 so couldn't use those designations in NI.