pulled by park ranger

Our man in Havana

Vegeta wrote: »

What's the posted speed limit in the phoenix park?

50 km/h

Cuddlesworth

Right so, he did 65kph to catch up with her. So she must have been doing about 55-60kph? More likely towards the bottom end of this scale as he had to catch up with her.

Now unless he happened to have a properly calibrated speedometer then he was about 10-15% out. So he really caught up with her, he was more likely doing about 56-59kph. Which would put the op in around 50kph.

What is the speed limit on that road?

Our man in Havana

What is the speed limit on that road?

For the last time, the limit is 50 km/h.

Quint

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Right so, he did 65kph to catch up with her. So she must have been doing about 55-60kph? More likely towards the bottom end of this scale as he had to catch up with her.

Now unless he happened to have a properly calibrated speedometer then he was about 10-15% out. So he really caught up with her, he was more likely doing about 56-59kph. Which would put the op in around 50kph.

What is the speed limit on that road?

Thats what I was thinking. If he had to do 65 "to catch up", the op was hardly flooring it. Maybe if the op is blond, assuming it's a girl, he wanted an excuse to stop her and have a chat:D
OP, report him for being a pervert

Vegeta

Bond-007 wrote: »

50 km/h

That's not in any of the bye laws I've seen though. The one on the phoenix park website says "30km" which is not even a speed

And the SI #6/1926 doesn't state a speed so its obviously outdated

Anyone have the more up to date SI?

Indeed the Park Constable can stop you if you break any of the bye laws but I don't see the 50km/h limit in any of them.

Anan1 wrote: »

This: http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/phoenixparkact/ confirms that the park warden was acting legally and would have been within his rights to arrest the OP. Here's the relevant extract:
7.—

(1) If any person in the Park and within the view of a park constable does any act which is an offence under any section of this Act or any bye-law made under this Act, or is in contravention of any such bye-law, such park constable, if in uniform, may do both or either of the following things, that is to say:—
( a ) demand from such person his name and address, or
( b ) order such person to leave the Park.
(2) If any such person as aforesaid refuses to give his name or refuses to give his address to a park constable upon demand by, such park constable as aforesaid, or gives a name or address which is known to or reasonably suspected by the park constable to be false or fictitious, the park constable may without warrant arrest and take into his custody such person.

Our man in Havana

I have seen plenty of 50 km/h signs in the park.

Our man in Havana

Anyone have the more up to date SI?

SI 374/2008 which is not relevant to the current situation.

GoneShootin

Onkle wrote: »

ou should report him for speeding

kayos

Onkle wrote: »

Not in those interviews. They really were tough. That DeVore lad has a serious stare and will suss if you are lying

Huh? When I was a mod back in the day I just logged in one day to find out I was made a mod how times have changed. And DeVore is just a big fluffy bunnie!

gnxx wrote: »

Interesting reading in both of these:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1925/en/act/pub/0031/index.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1926/en/si/0006.html

Park constables can be appointed by OPW. It appears to me they can indeed enforce traffic rules and if you refuse to give your name and address they can "without warrant arrest and take into his custody such person" !!

Here are the extracts from the acts:


4. (3) Drivers of vehicles in the Park shall comply with the provisions of these bye-laws and shall conform to such orders for the regulation of traffic in the Park as may be given by any member of the Gárda Síochána or any park constable or contained in any notice by the Commissioners exhibited in the Park.

7.—(1) If any person in the Park and within the view of a park constable does any act which is an offence under any section of this Act or any bye-law made under this Act, or is in contravention of any such bye-law, such park constable, if in uniform, may do both or either of the following things, that is to say:—
[GA]

( a ) demand from such person his name and address, or

( b ) order such person to leave the Park.


(2) If any such person as aforesaid refuses to give his name or refuses to give his address to a park constable upon demand by, such park constable as aforesaid, or gives a name or address which is known to or reasonably suspected by the park constable to be false or fictitious, the park constable may without warrant arrest and take into his custody such person.

So according the word of law the park ranger had no right to ask the OP her name or her details. The park ranger can only ask this of the male half of the population....

BTW speeding and getting caught nowt you can do about it. No point in complaining take your punishment.

How ever someone other than a Guarda pulling you over and demanding the information. Heck I would be the one ringing the guards while sitting infront of the ranger.
Hello Guarda? Yes I have a man here who pulled me over and started acting like a member of the force and has failed to produce identification to that effect....

com1

Maybe I should change my name to Pedantic Pat...

Is a 'Park Ranger' a 'Park Constable'? I am not so sure - http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/cfcbbe5c5fe85fa680256a01005bb356/80256a770034a2ab80256a220033d204?OpenDocument

And if this is the case do Park Rangers have the same powers of arrest as Park Constables?

And remember "No person shall ride a horse in any place where horse riding is prohibited" (http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/phoenixparkbyelaws/) whether they be low or high...

miju

so the park ranger is also entitled to break the speed limits too cos I'm fairly certain theres only three types of vehicles that are permitted to do so.

Vegeta

Bond-007 wrote: »

I have seen plenty of 50 km/h signs in the park.

My point is that a Park Constable (which are different from a Park Ranger) can only enforce the bye laws within the Act and I don't see a 50km/h bye law in there anywhere for him to enforce.

That's me being a pedant though

Our man in Havana

That would leave the Gardaí to enforce the speedlimit.

Vegeta

Bond-007 wrote: »

That would leave the Gardaí to enforce the speedlimit.

From reading the Act and SI(s) I would have thought so too.

Anan1

Vegeta wrote: »

My point is that a Park Constable (which are different from a Park Ranger) can only enforce the bye laws within the Act and I don't see a 50km/h bye law in there anywhere for him to enforce.

That's me being a pedant though

I presume the '/h' missing from here: All motorists must adhere to the speed limit of 30 km is a typo on the website. Common-sense would dictate that the webmaster simply garbled the change from 30mph to 50km/h?

Sparks

Ah, common sense.
Which isn't.
And which has no legal weight at all.
And which apparently wasn't on display during the incident the OP described.

niceirishfella

Bond-007 wrote: »

In before lock.

me too, its a coming:D

Solitaire

Bond-007 wrote:

In before lock.

Oh yes, a flame war instigated by the board moderator and now raging between other moderators! Methinks this thread will have to close before they start swinging their own Banhammers at each other's heads and cause Boards to implode!

Vegeta

Anan1 wrote: »

I presume the '/h' missing from here: All motorists must adhere to the speed limit of 30 km is a typo on the website. Common-sense would dictate that the webmaster simply garbled the change from 30mph to 50km/h?

Now fair enough if it is a mistake but that is the phoenix park website (which means it stands for diddly squat) and I cant see reference to a speed limit in the few SI I have looked at.

On the Irish Statute site there are only 2 SI listed when a search is done and neither mention any speed limit as a bye law and there is none in the Act itself either.

So we are agreed a Park Constable can enforce bye laws but where (bar the phoenix park website because that's not exactly a solid reference and it contains obvious errors) is the bye law stating a speed limit, be it in mph or kph?

I am genuinely looking at this objectively, so if the bye law exists and someone can find it, then they can. If it doesn't exist then I guess they cant?

kdevitt

I just rang the superintendant for the Phoenix Park to attempt and settle this. The rangers do not have the power to pull people over, and they are not authorised to do so - they can and do refer any details to the Gardai though.

Carry on...

Vegeta

kdevitt wrote: »

I just rang the superintendant for the Phoenix Park to attempt and settle this. The rangers do not have the power to pull people over, and they are not authorised to do so - they can and do refer any details to the Gardai though.

Carry on...

Fair play for ringing and asking but and again I am not trying to be smart but unless the Superintendent is a Judge in his spare time I wouldn't take his word for pretty much anything.

You should see some of the "laws" Superintendents make up when it comes to firearms legislation. One rule up the road and another rule in the next district.

kdevitt

Vegeta wrote: »

Fair play for ringing and asking but and again I am not trying to be smart but unless the Superintendent is a Judge in his spare time I wouldn't take his word for pretty much anything.

You should see some of the "laws" Superintendents make up when it comes to firearms legislation. One rule up the road and another rule in the next district.

You don't need to be a judge to pass out instructions to your rangers on what their job entails, and the limits of said role.

I'm fairly certain that if he says his staff are not permitted to do something, then they're not permitted. I can phone a judge though if that'll get some closure.

All that said - I have no sympathy for the OP - she sounds like a delight.

markpb

kdevitt wrote: »

I just rang the superintendant for the Phoenix Park to attempt and settle this. The rangers do not have the power to pull people over, and they are not authorised to do so - they can and do refer any details to the Gardai though.

How does that mesh with the Phoenix Park Act that was posted earlier? I normally trust the Gardai but in this instance, since the Act doesn't apply to them, I think he was misinformed and made a mistake. Here's the act on the official website.

kdevitt wrote: »

I'm fairly certain that if he says his staff are not permitted to do something, then they're not permitted. I can phone a judge though if that'll get some closure.

Park rangers are not his staff, they work for OPW and are authorised by the same act as above.

Vegeta

kdevitt wrote: »

You don't need to be a judge to pass out instructions to your rangers on what their job entails, and the limits of said role.

I'm fairly certain that if he says his staff are not permitted to do something, then they're not permitted. I can phone a judge though if that'll get some closure.

All that said - I have no sympathy for the OP - she sounds like a delight.

Just because you tell someone not to do something does not mean that they don't have the legal powers to do it.

Believe me as someone who deals with a Superintendent a lot and mods a forum where every user deals with a Superintendent on a regular basis, they do not enforce the law word for word all of the time and often make their own as they go.

The NARGC has taken them to court several times over this

parsi

Bond-007 wrote: »

There have no been any constables in this country since 1921 when the RIC packed their bags and headed north.

Strange.

There were enough of them around in 1925 to merit being mentioned in the Phoenix Park Act.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1925/en/act/pub/0031/sec0007.html

Perhaps you meant "out on the street constables" rather than "just in the park constables". Of course the post you replied to referred directly to "park constables".

Edit: Must really read to the end before posting. I'm still right though.

blondie7

kdevitt wrote: »

All that said - I have no sympathy for the OP - she sounds like a delight.

i didnt come on here looking for sympathy, i came on here looking to see if anyone had a simillar experience with the rangers themselves!

Vegeta

markpb wrote: »

How does that mesh with the Phoenix Park Act that was posted earlier? I normally trust the Gardai but in this instance, since the Act doesn't apply to them, I think he was misinformed and made a mistake. Here's the act on the official website.

It allows Park Constables to challenge anyone if they are in breach of that act or its bye laws. Where in the act or the bye laws does it state a speed limit?

Park rangers are not his staff, they work for OPW and are authorised by the same act as above.

Park Ranger =/= Park Constable

kdevitt

Vegeta wrote: »

Just because you tell someone not to do something does not mean that they don't have the legal powers to do it.

Believe me as someone who deals with a Superintendent a lot and mods a forum where every user deals with a Superintendent on a regular basis, they do not enforce the law word for word all of the time and often make their own as they go.

Oh sorry you're a mod on a forum - didn't realise!

To be honest, I'm actually really not that bothered, my father did a lot of work with the OPW years back and was always under the impression that the rangers had powers of arrest within the park. Maybe with some luck the OP will get a summons and that'll answer the original post once and for all!

blondie7

kdevitt wrote: »

Oh sorry you're a mod on a forum - didn't realise!

To be honest, I'm actually really not that bothered, my father did a lot of work with the OPW years back and was always under the impression that the rangers had powers of arrest within the park. Maybe with some luck the OP will get a summons and that'll answer the original post once and for all!

i wont be getting any summons as the gaurds wont do jack sh*t about it without proof:P

Vegeta

kdevitt wrote: »

Oh sorry you're a mod on a forum - didn't realise!

I didn't mean it like that. I meant it as an example of first hand knowledge of how Superintendents do not know the legislation word for word and basing a legal challenge on the word of one is a bad idea.

For example at 16 I applied for my first firearms license to the local Super (family is big into it) I was turned down because I was too young. Despite 16 being the minimum legal age.

To be honest, I'm actually really not that bothered, my father did a lot of work with the OPW years back and was always under the impression that the rangers had powers of arrest within the park. Maybe with some luck the OP will get a summons and that'll answer the original post once and for all!

Well looking at the Acts and SI documents they do have a lot of powers within the park.

jmck87

kdevitt wrote: »

Maybe with some luck the OP will get a summons and that'll answer the original post once and for all!

A summons for what exactly? Please dont say speeding...please...

podge3

blondie7 wrote: »

i wont be getting any summons as the gaurds wont do jach sh*t about it without proof:P

I assume that the park Warden would be able to ring Traffic Watch at the very least like other members of the public. If he was allege dangerous driving on behalf of the OP, then court proceedings may be initiated if the Warden was willing to go to court.

I may be completely wrong here, but did the Park Wardens ever have radar speed meters?. I do seem to recall that they had years ago.

blondie7

podge3 wrote: »

I assume that the park Warden would be able to ring Traffic Watch at the very least like other members of the public. If he was allege dangerous driving on behalf of the OP, then court proceedings may be initiated if the Warden was willing to go to court.

I may be completely wrong here, but did the Park Wardens ever have radar speed meters?. I do seem to recall that they had years ago.

yes he can call traffic watch anyone can do that but they cant summons me for speeding unless they have my speed recorded! if they have radar meters then surely he would have produced it to me yesterday evening showing my speed??

Sparks

podge3 wrote: »

I assume that the park Warden would be able to ring Traffic Watch at the very least like other members of the public. If he was allege dangerous driving on behalf of the OP, then court proceedings may be initiated if the Warden was willing to go to court.

That'd be interesting...
"Yes, your honour, I did overtake the OP at 65 km/hr in a posted 50km/hr zone, and yes, I did flash my lights at her, and yes I did brake to a halt in front of her suddenly without cause, thereby risking a collision, but honestly, it's my word against hers that she was doing more than the posted - but invalid as there's no bye-law just like the situation out in kilmacanogue a few years ago where they had to declare many garda-issued speeding tickets invalid - speed limit. And isn't my word as a park ranger better than her word as a mere pleb?"...

OldmanMondeo

Blondie7, You have made some crazy comments on this topic, like it not your fault if some kids runs out on the road, Speed limits are there to be broken. TBH, should you get anything you deserve it, though you probably won't.

I have this picture in my mind of you as a dyed blonde driving a silver micra with pink fluffy dice. Maybe you not like this at all, but you certianly come across as it.

miju

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Blondie7, You have made some crazy comments on this topic, like it not your fault if some kids runs out on the road, Speed limits are there to be broken. TBH, should you get anything you deserve it, though you probably won't.

I have this picture in my mind of you as a dyed blonde driving a silver micra with pink fluffy dice. Maybe you not like this at all, but you certianly come across as it.

that image is wrong. again I'll vouch for the OP that is a very capable and safe driver (no micra or fluffy dice either :-P ) I don't think what she was trying to say with comments like that translated very well into the written word. she's right btw it's not her fault someone runs out in front of a car.

as regars to her comment on speed limits I believe she was talking about the park speed limits in particular. as someone who also drives the park 4 times a day I have yet to see ANYONE stick to the speed limit in there as visibility is so good on the main road through it.

fullstop

Zonda999 wrote: »

€6.37, :eek:

No, €6.35

http://www.euro.ie/calc.htm

Fey!

mick.fr wrote: »

Not a reason to do 65 Kmh in Phoenix Park though if I may comment.

DublinWriter wrote: »

Even so, 65kph? Take it easy, OP, think of the kids, deer, dogs, doggers, jogging guards, etc.

Anan1 wrote: »

+1, whatever about the legal position I have zero sympathy for the OP. It's a park, FFS.

Anan1 wrote: »

But we live in a very strange world if pointing out that speeding through parks is wrong qualifies as being on ones high horse.

blueeyedboy wrote: »

In fairness if you speed in the Park you speed on the public road also.

kdevitt wrote: »

You are subject to bye laws when you enter the park - and he's entitled to pull you over.

ardmacha wrote: »

They can summons you to court and the Warden can state that he followed you at a speed of 65kph or whatever.

These are only from the first page of this thread, and typifies the knee jerk of a lot of people who are on the motors forum including, unfortunately, some moderators. And some of those quoted do this repeatedly.

Will one of you please point out EXACTLY where the OP says she was speeding.

The OP stated that the park employee stated that HE had to drive at 65kph to catch up with her; she may well have been doing 60kph; she could just as easily have been doin 20kph, but the PARK EMPLOYEE WAS DOING 65KPH, no the OP. The OP never mentioned her speed AT ALL.

Sorry about the shouting, but it could have been avoided if people read the actual opening post rather than what they wanted the opening post to read as.

OldmanMondeo

miju wrote: »

that image is wrong. again I'll vouch for the OP that is a very capable and safe driver (no micra or fluffy dice either :-P ) I don't think what she was trying to say with comments like that translated very well into the written word. she's right btw it's not her fault someone runs out in front of a car.

So she may be and I wasn't out to insult. The attitude she has come across with is terrible. Ok it is not her fault if someone runs out in front of her, but it is her responsibility to drive in a manor that is safe to both herself and other road users, the same of everyone else that uses road, foothpaths including Drivers, cyclists and walkers... comments like Speed Limits are there to be broken shows complete contempt to all other road users.

I don't know the OP personaly, she could be the nicest person in the world, but if she is, she has let herself down with a few comments here.

R.O.R

Fey! wrote: »

Will one of you please point out EXACTLY where the OP says she was speeding.

While it doesn't say in the OP that she was speeding, it's certainly implied that she was.

If she wasn't I'd say it would have been mentioned in the OP that she was within the posted limits.

Gary ITR

But why would her stop her if she was doing 50 or 20?

I'm sure like most of us if you see a car passing you know if it's speeding or not?

Fey!

R.O.R wrote: »

While it doesn't say in the OP that she was speeding, it's certainly implied that she was.

If she wasn't I'd say it would have been mentioned in the OP that she was within the posted limits.

Implication is not proof. And the OP wouldn't necessarily have put it in if she had been at a lower speed.

OldmanMondeo

Just noticed, 145 posts and still no one can tell if the Park Ranger is allowed to pull you over or not. Perconally I suspect not as the ROTR says something along the lines of Gardai and people in charge of animals are the only one who can direct traffic.

If it was me I would not have pulled over.

donvito99

blondie7 wrote: »

the correct spelling of is GAURD!

Is this guy serious?

Gary ITR

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Just noticed, 145 posts and still no one can tell if the Park Ranger is allowed to pull you over or not. Perconally I suspect not as the ROTR says something along the lines of Gardai and people in charge of animals are the only one who can direct traffic.

If it was me I would not have pulled over.

I don't think they are. As somebody mentioned earlier the statute refers to Park Constables and the Rangers aren't constables. The Rangers are little more than caretakers

podge3

blondie7 wrote: »

if they have radar meters then surely he would have produced it to me yesterday evening showing my speed??

I've no doubt he would - I was just making a general historical query. I may well be mistaken but I do seem to recall some of those lads with speed guns years ago.

blondie7

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

So she may be and I wasn't out to insult. The attitude she has come across with is terrible. Ok it is not her fault if someone runs out in front of her, but it is her responsibility to drive in a manor that is safe to both herself and other road users, the same of everyone else that uses road, foothpaths including Drivers, cyclists and walkers... comments like Speed Limits are there to be broken shows complete contempt to all other road users.

I don't know the OP personaly, she could be the nicest person in the world, but if she is, she has let herself down with a few comments here.

excuse me i do drive in a safe manor to both myself and other road users, dont comment on my drivin skills you havent a bulls notion about it! if someone walks out in front of any car on the main roa of the park then they are stupid its a straight road with perfect visibility on it. as for saying speed limits are there to be broken well its true life would be boring if we all stuck to the rules all the time!!

blondie7

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Blondie7, You have made some crazy comments on this topic, like it not your fault if some kids runs out on the road, Speed limits are there to be broken. TBH, should you get anything you deserve it, though you probably won't.

I have this picture in my mind of you as a dyed blonde driving a silver micra with pink fluffy dice. Maybe you not like this at all, but you certianly come across as it.

oh and im 100% natural blonde actually!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eoin

Enough.

Try the legal forum if people want to discuss the finer legal points (if you really do actually care). I think this has run its course here.