Habitual Cannabis/coke users

thebman

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

For those that like to smoke the odd spliff of hash/weed or the odd line of coke or whatever. Have you ever thought that you are part of Irelands drug problem and that your use of these substances funds the gangs the gangs that terrorise neighbourhoods in our cities? I often wonder when I see drugs related threads on this board, and the harsh punishments suggested by posters for the drug gangs, yet some of which have admitted to occasionally using their products.

Is it hypocritical for posters to recommend harsh sentences for drug barons, while it would appear that at least some of them use their drugs on at least a semi regular basis?

Do casual users have blood on their hands?

<EDIT>
OR do you feel guilty for not forcing the government to change their stance on drugs and try an alternative solution to fix the problems? Such as grow your own for personal use, and campaign to change the law? One could argue the apathy gives fuel to the gang problem?

Don't use but its more hypocritical for the government to outlaw something and not fund the police to police it effectively.

They could always legalise cannabis since it isn't very harmful anyway. Seems like the most logical thing to do.

Prof.Badass

Quint wrote: »

Well, cocaine is processed from the plant, you don't just split the leaf and get white powder coming out of it! Weed is just the plant dried without anything added

There is nothing in medical grade cocaine that is not in coca leaves.

Just because something comes in a plant doesn't mean it's safe/not addictive. Not only that, but plants generally contain a wide range of chemicals, not just the ones you're looking for.

Need i remind you that tobacco is a plant?

Isolated chemicals in pills (preferably with measured doses) are far safer. There's an actual reason why your doctor tells you to take an aspirin instead of drinking some williow-bark tea. It's not some sort of pharmaceutical conspiracy.

PinkTulips

not sure if it's been mentioned yet but there are legal alternatives on the market which are very effective.

http://www.irishheadstores.com/browse/Main/LEGAL_HIGHS/1/191

most big towns have a head shop or a sex shop that sells some legal highs so they're easily obtainable and reasonably priced.

the boyfrind hasn't given money to a dealer in over 3 years (i'd include myself in that but i've been busy breeding for longer than that and banned from anything fun as a result )

C.D.

Deleted User wrote: »

as has been said before, we could really attach this logic to many products.. diamonds etc. at the end of the day, most people don't care. i don't care, not for any particular reason, just because i've bigger things to feel guilty about.. the rapes and the murders mainly.

The drug-fueled rapes and murders? Or the murders committed by the drug gangs financed by your habit?

Clanket

A person should be able to do to themselves whatever they wish. As long as they're not harming anyone else.

As adults, we're old enough to make our own decisions, good or bad. I have no problem with people taking drugs, as long as it doesn't affect me.

And weed should definately be allowed. Adds a bit of fun to the world.

Salvelinus

nix wrote: »

I smoke weed and i couldnt give a **** who im funding tbh, the goverments fault for making the use of it illegal when its the most harmless recreational "drug" in the world.

And Beer is legal and kills more than all class-a drugs combined.

Why is marijuana against the law? It grows naturally upon our planet. Doesn't the idea of making nature against the law seem to you a bit . . . unnatural?
I think people need to be educated to the fact that marijuana is not a drug. Marijuana is an herb and a flower. God put it here. If He put it here and He wants it to grow, what gives the government the right to say that God is wrong? - Bill Hicks

Cocaine on the other hand, i agree with you on that one.

That's just pseudo new age woo woo. there's nothing more annoying than a stoner who thinks they have unlocked the secrets of the universe, like Sinead O'Connor.

ScumLord

C.D. wrote: »

The drug-fueled rapes and murders? Or the murders committed by the drug gangs financed by your habit?

I'd be willing to wage cold hard cash that the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by people with drink on them. Of course it's hard to prove that as allot of women wouldn't report it

nix

Salvelinus wrote: »

That's just pseudo new age woo woo. there's nothing more annoying than a stoner who thinks they have unlocked the secrets of the universe, like Sinead O'Connor.

The quote is over 20 years old, and if you think Bill was a hippy.... lol ;P

He was a comedian, so best to take it as humor. i posted it for lulz, not for arguments sake.

C.D.

ScumLord wrote: »

I'd be willing to wage cold hard cash that the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by people with drink on them. Of course it's hard to prove that as allot of women wouldn't report it

I'm sure you are right- but the most horrific rapes do seem to be the one committed by those "out of their minds" on drugs. I'm thinking along the lines of rape/torture/murder cases.

And it is indisputable that the majority of murders in this country are linked to drug gangs or committed by drug abusers.

I don't know how people can finance drug gangs who push hard drugs when you read about cases like the case where a man on PCP ate out his son's eyes and then trying to hack off his own leg with an axe.

Pace2008

PCP is unheard of in Ireland and hasn't been used to any significant degree anywhere in the world since the eighties. And while psychotic incidents do occur as a result of its use they are isolated cases - it's not a problem to society at all. Sensationalist stories like that might get Irish Sun readers up in arms but I'm not concerned.

ScumLord

C.D. wrote: »

I'm sure you are right- but the most horrific rapes do seem to be the one committed by those "out of their minds" on drugs. I'm thinking along the lines of rape/torture/murder cases.

The problem I have with the rape thing is sex isn't exactly easy when your out of your mind on drugs. It's all to easy to blame the drug but I think someone who commits rape is just as likely to do it sober and they're only using the drug as an excuse.

I don't know how people can finance drug gangs who push hard drugs when you read about cases like the case where a man on PCP ate out his son's eyes.

PCP is a powerful drug that can't really be associated with cannabis. They're completely different. LSD and shrooms don't even come close to PCP, it's a nasty drug. It's like saying all liquids are dangerous because of sulfuric acid.

Wertz

C.D. wrote: »

And it is indisputable that the majority of murders in this country are linked to drug gangs or committed by drug abusers.

If it's so indisputable perhaps you could provide some statistics to back that up...

Unless of course you're including alcohol among those drugs...

What really annoys me is people who take recreational drugs referring to dealers etc as 'scum', totally oblivious to the fact that they are creating a market for the stuff! It's so hypocritical. My bf does this and it wrecks my head. IMO the people who take illegal drugs are as bad as the people dealing them. And all the 'but it should be legal' stuff is such a cop out. It's NOT legal so stop whining and trying to pretend it's all fine and dandy. By all means, take drugs if you want, but don't frigging act like you're above all the 'scum' just because you live in Donnybrook and they live in Clondalkin.

nix

[quote=[Deleted User];61368365] And all the 'but it should be legal' stuff is such a cop out.[/QUOTE]

How?

Rev. Kitchen

Anyone that thinks any of those "gang killings" are drug related is just completly 100% wrong that is a silly idea pushed around by the goverment and guys like Paul Williams who gives nicknames to gang members and go around bigging them up.

Simple truth is these "gangs" are just scumbags and they hate each other they would be killing each other if they where selling drugs, old door or kettles. It makes no difference to them people seem to think if every one stopped taking drugs these drug gangs would all pack up and get jobs :rolleyes:.

For god sake they even say so themselves the gangs in limerick have said over and over its not about drugs its not about territory its just that they hate each other.

they sell drugs to make money if drugs where not illegal and the cops hadnt raided all the little nice dealers then these new breed of dealers wouldnt have a market.

You give some one a choice between getting their gear from these gangs or a decent source no one will go to the gangs its the cops/goverment that have taken away that option people have been getting high for thousands of years its very hard to get them to stop in what has been under 90 years since drugs where banned to prop up slavery.

C.D.

I would agree that PCP is not really on the scene in Ireland, I was merely using that as a very extreme example of what drugs can do. The point being sure, cannibis does not do much harm (like water) but heroin (like sulphuric acid) does. While Mick down the street might only deal the soft stuff, go a bit futher up the chain (if he doesn't grow it that is) and you are supporting those who import the hard stuff that destroys lives/families etc. And I'm not going to go look for statistics that heroin destroys people's lives- anyone who has had contact with somebody who has abused heroin knows this is true

Anyway, RE: statistics, I can only find a Tribune on gangland murders. Th eCSO does not appear to classify murders by gangland involvement and/or if the perpatrator has illegal substances in their system. Coupled with the CSO figures for murders, gangland killings appear to account for ~ 20% of yearly murders, not taking into account murders committed by those on drugs.

Tribune article listing gangland killings

CSO table

IMO alcohol and nicotine also cause untold damage but that is a different kettle of fish. I rarely indulge in the first and never the second.

Shane_C

Bull**** thread.
I am responsible for my actions, not the actions of others.

Oh The Humanity

Yeh, buddy get your head out of the papers. Its all written to unsettle worrying types.

Everything is the same as it ever was.

Drugs are here, they are not going away.

Someone is always gonna sell them, someone is always gonna buy them.

Its a dirty job but someones gotta do it.

nix

nix wrote: »

How?

Because it isn't legal and therefore you are providing a market for illegal substances. It doesn't matter what you think it 'should' be. If you want to go ahead and take illegal substances, sure you can, but don't pretend there are no consequences to those actions or that you are any better than the people who supply those substances.

nix

[quote=[Deleted User];61368743]Because it isn't legal and therefore you are providing a market for illegal substances. It doesn't matter what you think it 'should' be. If you want to go ahead and take illegal substances, sure you can, but don't pretend there are no consequences to those actions or that you are any better than the people who supply those substances.[/QUOTE]

You didnt answer my question, why is it a cop out to say a harmless drug should be legalised (cannabis) ?

Do you think alcohol should be illegalised?

Rev. Kitchen

[quote=[Deleted User];61368365]What really annoys me is people who take recreational drugs referring to dealers etc as 'scum', totally oblivious to the fact that they are creating a market for the stuff! It's so hypocritical. My bf does this and it wrecks my head. IMO the people who take illegal drugs are as bad as the people dealing them. And all the 'but it should be legal' stuff is such a cop out. It's NOT legal so stop whining and trying to pretend it's all fine and dandy. By all means, take drugs if you want, but don't frigging act like you're above all the 'scum' just because you live in Donnybrook and they live in Clondalkin.[/quote]

You do know that these sunday world drug dealers that you are talking about account for such a tiny % of the drugs coming into the country its not worth even talking about. chances are if you dont live with in a mile of 1 of these "Gangs" you are not taking their drugs. id say over 90% of people that take habitual drugs never give a penny to these gangs.

thebman

[quote=[Deleted User];61368365]What really annoys me is people who take recreational drugs referring to dealers etc as 'scum', totally oblivious to the fact that they are creating a market for the stuff! It's so hypocritical. My bf does this and it wrecks my head. IMO the people who take illegal drugs are as bad as the people dealing them. And all the 'but it should be legal' stuff is such a cop out. It's NOT legal so stop whining and trying to pretend it's all fine and dandy. By all means, take drugs if you want, but don't frigging act like you're above all the 'scum' just because you live in Donnybrook and they live in Clondalkin.[/QUOTE]

So your dating someone you think is as bad as a drug dealer? Weird standards. Me suspects you aren't being honest with yourself.

C.D. wrote: »

I would agree that PCP is not really on the scene in Ireland, I was merely using that as a very extreme example of what drugs can do. The point being sure, cannibis does not do much harm (like water) but heroin (like sulphuric acid) does. While Mick down the street might only deal the soft stuff, go a bit futher up the chain (if he doesn't grow it that is) and you are supporting those who import the hard stuff that destroys lives/families etc. And I'm not going to go look for statistics that heroin destroys people's lives- anyone who has had contact with somebody who has abused heroin knows this is true

This is the same post you made earlier but you substituted PCP with Heroin.

I don't think people are arguing to legalise Heroin here. Most people are talking about Cannabis.

It is a frequent twist on discussion about Cannabis that people say it should be kept illegal, look at the effects of illegal drugs like Heroin but the that is a cope out as each should be looked at individually for their effects.

It is bollocks to suggest that saying Heroin (or any other drug) is bad, keep Cannabis illegal is a logical discussion. It is not, it is bollocks!

Discuss the merits of legalising Cannabis please or start your own thread/poll on why you think Heroin and PCP should be kept illegal.

nix

nix wrote: »

You didnt answer my question, why is it a cop out to say a harmless drug should be legalised (cannabis) ?

Do you think alcohol should be illegalised?

Because it's NOT legal! Whether or not that's 'right' is irrelevant. At the moment, it is illegal. Just because you don't think that's fair doesn't make you somehow less responsible for taking an illegal substance and the consequences of it. Bringing alcohol into the discussion is so predictable. Yes, it might be an awful substance in certain circumstances but it is not illegal. If you want to change that, go become a politician because every time I read one of those 'alcohol is worse' rants, it just sounds like a whiny child trying to justify its behaviour. Do you propose that everyone should be able to do what they want once they consider it OK? Where do you stop?

CCCP^

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

My hypocracy or otherwise is irrelevent and not under discussion. I have never used narcotics, but thats neither here nor there.

The question I posed though is theat whether drug uers feel a sense of guilt when they buy. Its clear now many don't and try and justify it by pointing to other trades which are legal but have questionable morality. Most on the arguments here have a fallacy.

Incidentally I don't have a problem per se with the local hippy growing his own, however those people are in the minority and the legalisation of drugs isn't what this discussion was meant to be about. Most people buy, and the majority of this is imported by dangerous criminals.

For those that blame the government (an easy target, its always us vs them isn't it?), They are of the people, by the people and for the people. They are a direct reflection of our own society, if there was a popular movement for drugs legalisation, the government would be in favour. Its the way democracy works, but thats another thread.

If related topics are not up for discussion with you then fine. Your outlook is already outdated as it is, and demanding we stick to a line of discussion merely because you can't see the bigger picture or can't defend against the hypocracy of your argument is irrelevent. But when your ready to come down from your high horse, we will still be here.

Oppenheimer1 wrote:

If there was a popular movement for drugs legalisation, the government would be in favour

Indeed! And if there was a popular movement, say, to keep Cancer services in Sligo, the Government would be in favour too! The Government is very much into doing things the general public want or need, as we can all testify to from our own personal experience of the last 12 months.

Wertz

C.D. wrote: »

Anyway, RE: statistics, I can only find a Tribune on gangland murders. Th eCSO does not appear to classify murders by gangland involvement and/or if the perpatrator has illegal substances in their system. Coupled with the CSO figures for murders, gangland killings appear to account for ~ 20% of yearly murders, not taking into account murders committed by those on drugs.

So ~20%; quite a ways from being the "majority".
Gangland killing itself is a bit of a catch all term...it seems to come down to being a gangland murder if you're shot in Dublin or Limerick, or if you are "previously known to gardaí"...you'd probably find in most of those cases that someone was shot for one of three reasons:
a debt (not necessarily drug incurred),
a territorial dispute (not necessarily drug related)
or for being a police informant/witness (again not necessarily drug related).

I asked you for the stats because I know they probably don't exist, and that's with good reason, because it's probably very dificult to quantify.

As for murders commited by those on drugs...what drugs? Are you referring to the continued association between cocaine use and west Dublin gangland hits? No doubt that there are cases liek that that exist...although I doubt they make up your shortfall to the "majority of murders".
Other drugs...ecstasy, cannabis? Please.
Heroin? Again unlikely...a heroin addict is much more likely to kill you when they're not on the gear.
Acid? Speed? Possibly...but nonetheless unlikely, particularly acid.

C.D. wrote: »

IMO alcohol and nicotine also cause untold damage but that is a different kettle of fish.

According to alcoholireland.ie's list of statistics (which they fail to back up to actual studies)

Alcohol and Crime.
- Almost half of the perpetrators of homicide were intoxicated when the crime was committed

The fact that you consider this a "different kettle of fish" just shows that you have no problem with ignoring a much bigger problem in order for your anti-drugs views to stand out.
I would not contest that those who commit murder who had alcohol in their system may well have had other drugs in their system too...that's the nature of the beast. However, I would be of the view that as a direct influencing factor in the murder, you'd look to alcohol as the substance which had the most "input" into the violent behaviour and lack of moral responsibility or social conscience that lead to that murder to begin with...

thebman

[quote=[Deleted User];61369233]Because it's NOT legal! Whether or not that's 'right' is irrelevant. At the moment, it is illegal. Just because you don't think that's fair doesn't make you somehow less responsible for taking an illegal substance and the consequences of it. Bringing alcohol into the discussion is so predictable. Yes, it might be an awful substance in certain circumstances but it is not illegal. If you want to change that, go become a politician because every time I read one of those 'alcohol is worse' rants, it just sounds like a whiny child trying to justify its behaviour. Do you propose that everyone should be able to do what they want once they consider it OK? Where do you stop?[/QUOTE]

I think you'll find thats what everyone does do. That is why despite murder being illegal, it still happens, same with rape and breaking the speed limit.

Name one person that has never broken a law (not getting caught, just broken the law). If you can, I suspect they are lying because everyone has accidentally gone over 30 or 120 on a motorway.

Wertz

Forgot to add a link to that quoted stat and for some reason firefox won't let me edit my post.

http://alcoholireland.ie/?page_id=110

rantyface

I wouldn't buy from some random dealer. Firstly, they rip you off and secondly you don't know where the money is going or where the goods are from.

It's easy to grow and even easier and cheaper to import from Holland. After my house being broken into several times, once with witnesses, my bike being stolen, my mail being stolen, scribbled on and returned to sender and the gardai couldn't do anything about any of those things, I realised they are completely useless and you can get away with pretty much anything. So stop buying from rip off dealers and grow your own.

nix

[quote=[Deleted User];61369233]Because it's NOT legal! Whether or not that's 'right' is irrelevant. At the moment, it is illegal. Just because you don't think that's fair doesn't make you somehow less responsible for taking an illegal substance and the consequences of it. Bringing alcohol into the discussion is so predictable. Yes, it might be an awful substance in certain circumstances but it is not illegal. If you want to change that, go become a politician because every time I read one of those 'alcohol is worse' rants, it just sounds like a whiny child trying to justify its behaviour. Do you propose that everyone should be able to do what they want once they consider it OK? Where do you stop?[/QUOTE]


Your not really putting up much of an arguement, people break the law everyday. I bet you do it frequently too. Ever watched pirated movies/music?

Heck even Jesus Christ broke laws, i suppose your gonna tell me he was wrong too ? :P

Your not putting up any argument which is deeming your posts pointless, your just whining to stop talking and bringing up valid points :P

thebman

thebman wrote: »

I think you'll find thats what everyone does do. That is why despite murder being illegal, it still happens, same with rape and breaking the speed limit.

Name one person that has never broken a law (not getting caught, just broken the law). If you can, I suspect they are lying because everyone has accidentally gone over 30 or 120 on a motorway.

I'm not saying nobody breaks the law. I'm saying it's stupid to do it and try to justify it as 'it should be legal anyway', and to talk about drug gangs and drug related crime in Colombia and act like you have absolutely nothing to do with it. I've far, far more respect for someone who says they enjoy drugs and just don't give a sh*t about the rest of it than those who come up with all manner of stupid excuses to delude themselves that they're not doing anything wrong.

Dudess

Sc@recrow wrote: »

hmm...chocolate/clothes aren't illegal the latest I heard
And apart from mild addiction to chocolate they're harmless

These debates always shift from the ethical question to the legal question. Starts off: "ye're fundin' misery and murder!", then someone points out so is buying coffee, chocolate, Coca Cola, clothing, footwear so the response is "They're not illegal"... but, that wasn't the concern in the first place, even if it seems like a convenient one to fall back on.

nix

nix wrote: »

Your not really putting up much of an arguement, people break the law everyday. I bet you do it frequently too. Ever watched pirated movies/music?

Heck even Jesus Christ broke laws, i suppose your gonna tell me he was wrong too ? :P

Your not putting up any argument which is deeming your posts pointless, your just whining to stop talking and bringing up valid points :P

No, you're just choosing to completely ignore my point.

Dudess

Sc@recrow wrote: »

Any comparisons with clothes/fcukin chocolate for christ's sake are bullsh1t.
I never heard of coca heads robbing people for their fixes.

I just heard of killings of Coca Cola workers in Latin America. The comparisons aren't bullsh1t just because they don't suit your argument. Absolute horror has occurred in the production of some of the stuff we take for granted.

C.D. wrote: »

I'm sure you are right- but the most horrific rapes do seem to be the one committed by those "out of their minds" on drugs. I'm thinking along the lines of rape/torture/murder cases.

Do they?

I don't know how people can finance drug gangs who push hard drugs when you read about cases like the case where a man on PCP ate out his son's eyes and then trying to hack off his own leg with an axe.

Alcohol causes the odd person to do insane sh1t too - any substance will have a horrendous effect on a tiny minority.

Wertz

Dudess wrote: »

These debates always shift from the ethical question to the legal question. Starts off: "ye're fundin' misery and murder!", then someone points out so is buying coffee, chocolate, Coca Cola, clothing, footwear so the response is "They're not illegal"... but, that wasn't the concern in the first place, even if it seems like a convenient one to fall back on.

Either that or they arrive at the same place in a more logical manner; ie

"OMG drugs, the demand for drugs and drug users are mostly to blame for gangland murders and violent crime"

"It's because drugs remain illegal that they are under criminal control which automatically implies the commital of further crime to keep control of trade, territory and profits"

Dudess

jumpguy wrote: »

Yes, sadly, it does. You could draw parellels all day but at the end of the day, the money you hand over for a bag of weed is going straight into the grubby hands of drug barons.

Any bag of weed? Hardly.

They'll then use it to live their lavish lives while angering us all because there is some ****ty scumbag who never worked a day in his life driving an 09 car with state benefits to boot. You also fund his weapons and their little feuds which contribute to the violence on our streets, broken neighbourhoods and communities, "rough" parts of cities and towns, ruining many people's lives. Nevermind the deaths from high kids doing crazy things and killing themselves or others. No good can come of it, sorry, and don't even try to justify it. Stop kidding yourself.

Nobody's trying to justify it or kid themselves, they're just not going to stop using because of what it's funding. And the parallels with other industries may be awkward for the anti drugs lobby, but they are perfectly reasonable.

/shrug

Actually, people who watch hardcore porn are watching women being exploited (not all women enter the porn world willingly, and not all of them are happy to do some of the stuff they have to do). Most of us (bar some nuns and monks) do stuff that has terrible consequences for others unknown to us.

Prof.Badass

C.D. wrote: »

I would agree that PCP is not really on the scene in Ireland, I was merely using that as a very extreme example of what drugs can do. The point being sure, cannibis does not do much harm (like water) but heroin (like sulphuric acid) does. While Mick down the street might only deal the soft stuff, go a bit futher up the chain (if he doesn't grow it that is) and you are supporting those who import the hard stuff that destroys lives/families etc.

From a medical point of view heroin is remarkably safe. It has very few toxic effects on the body and at all but the highest doses it is quite easy to function normally while opiated.

Heroin has a dependancy rate of 23%. Now, while this is higher than most other drugs (cannabis-9%, alcohol-15%), it's not the 99% most people seem to think it is.
Apparently most people who try heroin find it boring and move on.

If it was sold legally, being a heroin addict would be no worse than being a nicotine addict is today. You would not see any of the massive problems you see today with addicts, because these life-destroying problems are brought about by prohibition, not by heroin.

If someone wants to use heroin I think that is their decision. They are responsible for that decision, not their dealer. It's all too easy to cry home to mammy when you fuck up and get the blame shifted on everyone but yourself, and then there's the media who love this because people only ever want to hear about "killer drugs" and how bad they are.

Don't get me wrong. I would never touch the stuff, and i wouldn't wish heroin addiction on anyone I know, but public perception of it's dangers are maybe just a tad overblown.


This article should make an interesting read.

thebman

[quote=[Deleted User];61369715]I'm not saying nobody breaks the law. I'm saying it's stupid to do it and try to justify it as 'it should be legal anyway', and to talk about drug gangs and drug related crime in Colombia and act like you have absolutely nothing to do with it. I've far, far more respect for someone who says they enjoy drugs and just don't give a sh*t about the rest of it than those who come up with all manner of stupid excuses to delude themselves that they're not doing anything wrong.[/QUOTE]

In fairness (like Dudess said), the same horrible things happen when you buy from loads of brand name companies and fashion designers (I won't name any to avoid mod trouble or whatever) and people have no problem with that and you don't consider all those people scum too do you?

People that buy the drugs aren't related to that activity in any way. It is silly to link the two because they are miles apart. Governments can easily stop imports from countries that exploit people but don't.

Seems either the majority in the country are okay with it or feel the connection is too far apart to actually link the two together.

rantyface

I think everyone should make an effort to stop buying weed from these gangs. You know it's not right, and you're throwing money away.

Ideally it would be legal and taxed. That will come with time I think. They're doing it in California!

You Suck!

Legalize Cake!!!

thebman

thebman wrote: »

In fairness (like Dudess said), the same horrible things happen when you buy from loads of brand name companies and fashion designers (I won't name any to avoid mod trouble or whatever) and people have no problem with that and you don't consider all those people scum too do you?

People that buy the drugs aren't related to that activity in any way. It is silly to link the two because they are miles apart. Governments can easily stop imports from countries that exploit people but don't.

Seems either the majority in the country are okay with it or feel the connection is too far apart to actually link the two together.

But they ARE related to it. If there was no market for it, it wouldn't be grown/processed/sold. I'm well aware this is also the case for clothing, Coca Cola and other stuff but it doesn't make it any less true. I've seen with my own eyes middle class guys from Rathfarnham buying drugs from guys just down the road in Tallaght and calling them scum. Why are they any scummier than the people taking the stuff? Because they wear tracksuits and have Dublin accents?

TPD

You Suck! wrote: »

Legalize Cake!!!

You dont want to get Czech Neck!

C.D.

thebman wrote: »

It is bollocks to suggest that saying Heroin (or any other drug) is bad, keep Cannabis illegal is a logical discussion. It is not, it is bollocks!

Discuss the merits of legalising Cannabis please or start your own thread/poll on why you think Heroin and PCP should be kept illegal.

I never said anything about the legality of it- I was merely pointing out when you buy cannabis you tend to fund those who push heroin and/or "hard" drugs.

C.D.

Wertz wrote: »

So ~20%; quite a ways from being the "majority".
Gangland killing itself is a bit of a catch all term...it seems to come down to being a gangland murder if you're shot in Dublin or Limerick, or if you are "previously known to gardaí"...you'd probably find in most of those cases that someone was shot for one of three reasons:
a debt (not necessarily drug incurred),
a territorial dispute (not necessarily drug related)
or for being a police informant/witness (again not necessarily drug related).

I asked you for the stats because I know they probably don't exist, and that's with good reason, because it's probably very dificult to quantify.

As for murders commited by those on drugs...what drugs? Are you referring to the continued association between cocaine use and west Dublin gangland hits? No doubt that there are cases liek that that exist...although I doubt they make up your shortfall to the "majority of murders".
Other drugs...ecstasy, cannabis? Please.
Heroin? Again unlikely...a heroin addict is much more likely to kill you when they're not on the gear.
Acid? Speed? Possibly...but nonetheless unlikely, particularly acid.




According to alcoholireland.ie's list of statistics (which they fail to back up to actual studies)


The fact that you consider this a "different kettle of fish" just shows that you have no problem with ignoring a much bigger problem in order for your anti-drugs views to stand out.
I would not contest that those who commit murder who had alcohol in their system may well have had other drugs in their system too...that's the nature of the beast. However, I would be of the view that as a direct influencing factor in the murder, you'd look to alcohol as the substance which had the most "input" into the violent behaviour and lack of moral responsibility or social conscience that lead to that murder to begin with...

I will concede that it is an argument that nobody can with because of the lack of statistics, but I will point out that I said murders that "are linked to drug gangs or committed by drug abusers.". This net is much wider than just gangland killing (at which 20% is still large) and would encompass junkies who commit murder/manslaughter/whatever you deem it to be/ during the course of a robbery who might not be "on the gear" at the time of the crime. Those who tend to shoot police informants/debtors also tend to have their hands in many pies- drug dealing/prostitution etc.

Finally the alcohol debate being a "different kettle of fish"- I used that term as this thread is not about alcohol. If you wish to start another thread RE: alcohol, I'll probably post too- saying that it is a bigger problem than drugs but is going to take generations to solve due to how ingrained in our culture/society it is. I do not ignore it or operate double standards. I also try to source everything I eat/own from ethical sources so I don not operate double standards with regards to my opinions on coke users who fund crime.

Wertz

C.D. wrote: »

but I will point out that I said murders that "are linked to drug gangs or committed by drug abusers.".

No this is what you said:

C.D. wrote: »

And it is indisputable that the majority of murders in this country are linked to drug gangs or committed by drug abusers.

those are two radically differing statements.

C.D. wrote: »

Finally the alcohol debate being a "different kettle of fish"- I used that term as this thread is not about alcohol. If you wish to start another thread RE: alcohol, I'll probably post too- saying that it is a bigger problem than drugs but is going to take generations to solve due to how ingrained in our culture/society it is.

No you're right the thread isn't about alcohol, it's about drugs fueling crime. People suuch as yourself are so quick to rush in with this "Drugs cause X amount of murders and Y amount of rapes"...but what you never seem to understand or acknowledge is that alcohol fuels multiple times more murders, rapes and violent crime in general than the rest of the illegal drugs combined...but yet it remains legal in the face of much damning evidence (and I'm not suggesting it shouldn't).

The hypocrisy (not hypocracy as the OP likes to spell it) of the continual rhetoric of the anti-drug lobby in citing drugs as the cause of so much trouble in society, whilst refusing to see that the majority of the reason that they cause any of that trouble is because they're illegal in the first place but yet the other legal drug which is actually responsible for so much violent crime in society gets a free pass...because it's legal...is breathtaking.

soundsham

as someone who does not use drugs,i just wonder would all the guys here that say it is not linked to these guys killing each other and many innocent people most importantly(guys here seem to have very short memories),
1 would/do you sell it and why

nix

[quote=[Deleted User];61369759]No, you're just choosing to completely ignore my point.[/QUOTE]

Yes but your point is being made with the ignorance of the counter, i smoke a harmless plant and cause no harm to others. The means in which i get it is the only option available, my intention is not to fund terrorism/gangs. This can be stopped by simply making it legal. Not my decision unfortunatley, but in the hands of ignorant old farts :P

Infact im 99% sure all the stuff i get is local home grown and in no way funding terror/gangs. But your speaking on a global scale i presume so i'll add that terrorism is funded by alot more than just drugs, Credit card fraud is mainly used to fund terrorism, should we stop using credit/debit cards and just use cash ? :P

The other potentially harmlful drugs can remain under question, the ones that could potentially harm others but never really do, no way near enough as much as alcohol.

But the weed? put a barcode on it already please

rantyface

Wertz wrote: »

The hypocrisy (not hypocracy as the OP likes to spell it) of the continual rhetoric of the anti-drug lobby in citing drugs as the cause of so much trouble in society, whilst refusing to see that the majority of the reason that they cause any of that trouble is because they're illegal in the first place but yet the other legal drug which is actually responsible for so much violent crime in society gets a free pass...because it's legal...is breathtaking.

Well said.

Color Climax

semantic,

love in,

thought orgasm,

thread?

Drugs be bad unless you use them and then drink is bad too and stuff. Oh and smoking cigs is bad too

C.D.

Wertz wrote: »

No this is what you said:



those are two radically differing statements.

No, quite simply, no.

"or by drug abusers"- i.e. people who abuse drugs. Not just people under the influence of those drugs. For the purposes of my point- replying to your post that:

Wertz wrote: »

Heroin? Again unlikely...a heroin addict is much more likely to kill you when they're not on the gear.

the two posts have similar enough meaning not to be misinterpreted. I agree that heroin fueled crime is committed by people who haven't had a fix in a while and are desperate.

Wertz wrote: »

No you're right the thread isn't about alcohol, it's about drugs fueling crime. People suuch as yourself are so quick to rush in with this "Drugs cause X amount of murders and Y amount of rapes"...but what you never seem to understand or acknowledge is that alcohol fuels multiple times more murders, rapes and violent crime in general than the rest of the illegal drugs combined...but yet it remains legal in the face of much damning evidence (and I'm not suggesting it shouldn't).

The hypocrisy (not hypocracy as the OP likes to spell it) of the continual rhetoric of the anti-drug lobby in citing drugs as the cause of so much trouble in society, whilst refusing to see that the majority of the reason that they cause any of that trouble is because they're illegal in the first place but yet the other legal drug which is actually responsible for so much violent crime in society gets a free pass...because it's legal...is breathtaking.

Read my post again- I specifically stated that I acknowledge it is a bigger problem:

C.D. wrote:

..I'll probably post too- saying that it is a bigger problem than drugs..

I agree and have known since my early teens that alcohol is a bigger problem.

To quote you, the problem with "People suuch as yourself" is that you are more concerned with quoting people out of context and twisting the language used in posts to obscure their original meaning than having a proper discussion. Oh not to mention, picking up on typos to boost your own ego.

If you decide to actually read my posts, be reasonable enough to ignore typos and errors made in haste, discuss the point made and acknowledge I'm an individual who agrees with some of your opinions instead of automatically assuming I'm part of some brain washed zombie from the "anti-drug lobby" , I'll reply.

Procasinator

vinylmesh wrote: »

From a medical point of view heroin is remarkably safe. It has very few toxic effects on the body and at all but the highest doses it is quite easy to function normally while opiated.

Heroin has a dependancy rate of 23%. Now, while this is higher than most other drugs (cannabis-9%, alcohol-15%), it's not the 99% most people seem to think it is.
Apparently most people who try heroin find it boring and move on.

If it was sold legally, being a heroin addict would be no worse than being a nicotine addict is today. You would not see any of the massive problems you see today with addicts, because these life-destroying problems are brought about by prohibition, not by heroin.

If someone wants to use heroin I think that is their decision. They are responsible for that decision, not their dealer. It's all too easy to cry home to mammy when you fuck up and get the blame shifted on everyone but yourself, and then there's the media who love this because people only ever want to hear about "killer drugs" and how bad they are.

Don't get me wrong. I would never touch the stuff, and i wouldn't wish heroin addiction on anyone I know, but public perception of it's dangers are maybe just a tad overblown.


This article should make an interesting read.

Pure (or close to) heroin can be fine, and it true that prohibition causes most problems. But it's not prohibition alone.

If prohibition of heroin was eliminated, there is potential for the problems to go away. However, just because prohibition is eliminated, doesn't mean people will the use these drugs responsibly: addiction nearly always will have ripple effects within society.

You have to hope people regulate themselves. I'm not against legalisation for some drugs, but at the same time I don't think drugs were necessary banned in the first place just because the older generation didn't want kids to have fun. Looking at the history of opium is interesting in this regard.