Habitual Cannabis/coke users

Shelga

Wertz wrote:

what you never seem to understand or acknowledge is that alcohol fuels multiple times more murders, rapes and violent crime in general

I think others are more willing to look at all aspects of the situation than you tbh. You seem intent on disagreeing with everything even when you and a so-called "anti-drugs lobbyist" agree on a certain point, which comes across as childish and argumentative.

As for alcohol fuelling more crime than drugs- I have to agree with Brantley Dirty Pacemaker- you can't just say that it should be legal and do whatever the hell you want. Again- stubborn and childish. From a purely economic point of view, rightly or wrongly, the sale of alcohol in this country generates huge amounts of money for the government- money which in turn can be spent on hospitals, schools etc. At this moment in time the same cannot be said for cannabis. Whether it should be legalised or not isn't the issue- RIGHT NOW it is fuelling crime elsewhere, which is why I would not buy weed (if I smoked it to begin with!)

ScumLord

[quote=[Deleted User];61370229]But they ARE related to it. If there was no market for it, it wouldn't be grown/processed/sold.[/QUOTE] But there'll always be a market for it, the only way you'd eradicate peoples desire to do drugs would be to go back in time and destroy the plants before the first animals, (probably millions of years ago) did drugs and yes other animals do drugs too.

You want the world to live in a fantasy land. The law is just words written down somewhere it can't really deal with the complexities of real life especially when it's holding on to ideas and ideals from hundreds of years ago. The system is flawed as it is and needs rapid change we can't change the world to suit the law.

I'm well aware this is also the case for clothing, Coca Cola and other stuff but it doesn't make it any less true. I've seen with my own eyes middle class guys from Rathfarnham buying drugs from guys just down the road in Tallaght and calling them scum. Why are they any scummier than the people taking the stuff? Because they wear tracksuits and have Dublin accents?

That's a problem with society and people you really don't think that would go away if people didn't do drugs?

Stev_o

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

how's that exactly?

an entire people being opressed by an oil rich royal family and their religious police force so that you can get around the country quicker. On the moral stakes, a tad more impressive than a few gangland shootings because some people buy something the government has forced into the black market.

So which country do you care more about then? Ireland or Saudi Arabia?

TomCo

oppenheimer1 wrote:

The question I posed though is theat whether drug uers feel a sense of guilt when they buy. .

Makes me feel like a big man :cool:.

Dudess

[quote=[Deleted User];61370229]If there was no market for it, it wouldn't be grown/processed/sold. I'm well aware this is also the case for clothing, Coca Cola and other stuff but it doesn't make it any less true.[/QUOTE]
Of course it doesn't make it less true - that's not what people are saying.

soundsham wrote: »

as someone who does not use drugs,i just wonder would all the guys here that say it is not linked to these guys killing each other and many innocent people most importantly(guys here seem to have very short memories)

I don't think people are saying drugs aren't linked to guys killing each other and many innocent people.

oppenheimer1

Dudess wrote: »

Of course it doesn't make it less true - that's not what people are saying.

I don't think people are saying drugs aren't linked to guys killing each other and many innocent people.

No, what they are saying is they don't care. To paraphrase Fr. Stack "They've had their fun and thats all that matters"... to hell with the consequences.

Dudess

Yeah, I know they're saying they don't care.

thebman

[quote=[Deleted User];61370229]But they ARE related to it. If there was no market for it, it wouldn't be grown/processed/sold. I'm well aware this is also the case for clothing, Coca Cola and other stuff but it doesn't make it any less true. I've seen with my own eyes middle class guys from Rathfarnham buying drugs from guys just down the road in Tallaght and calling them scum. Why are they any scummier than the people taking the stuff? Because they wear tracksuits and have Dublin accents?[/QUOTE]

TBH I think this is just another reason to push for legalisation.

They don't want to deal with them, they only do it because they can't get it anywhere else.

people hate bookies and politicians and the public sector if you read this but they'll still deal with them to get something they want. At the end of the day, half the reason they hate them is because they are probably ripping them off for quality/quantity/cost ratio and because the general tag of drug dealer is a bad individual so they are hardly going to say he is a lovely fella.

I know some people who have sold Cannabis and they were just ordinary guys but the guys they got it from were scum. I don't do any of the stuff being honest, barely drink.

Still think its moronic not to legalise Cannabis and reducing profits for the tougher gang type dealers is a big reason why I want it legalised.

C.D. wrote: »

I never said anything about the legality of it- I was merely pointing out when you buy cannabis you tend to fund those who push heroin and/or "hard" drugs.

Not always, I've quizzed a few people on the type of people they buy from and that and I've known a couple of drug dealers who have come round to sell stuff to house mates and they were all ordinary fellas. I wouldn't hang out with them in my spare time.

I'm sure someone has to deal with the unsavory types but in general I think there is the guy that deals with that guy and redistributes to less scummy like people with Cannabis so that people don't feel absolutely terrified by them.

C.D.

thebman wrote: »

Not always..

Yes not always. Hence why I said "tend" and not always. Best most smokes home grown stuff (but not by him).

vibe666

i might feel guilty for a little while, but I find that a big fat spliff is the perfect thing for melting away any guilty feelings so the problem sorts itself out every time. :cool:

Oh The Humanity

[quote=[Deleted User];61370229]But they ARE related to it. If there was no market for it, it wouldn't be grown/processed/sold.[/quote]

But there is a market for it.....that is never gonna change....

I certainly am not gonna desist from using the beloved stuff just because some crimelords have jumped on the bandwagon and got in on the scene.

Why the hell should I make that personal sacrifice?

Is that what you're suggesting?

That smokers should 'vote with their feet' -its not going to happen. Cloud cuckoo land.

I've grown my own and frankly, the watering the lights, the messing about. I don't have the time or the space.

Smokers (if I am typical and I reckon I am) don't 'care' on demand when the 'media' decides to hype a particular issue to horrify the 'moral majority'.
This particlar campaign seems to have fallen on deaf ears anyway. I dont meet anyone in day to day life who gives a sh1t what some bulldog covered in indian ink is doing in Limerick or Tallaght. The more they shoot each other the better as far as Im concerned.

But neither am I deluded enough to imagine all my stashes come from Mr. Nice. Truth is it makes no difference to me.

The fanciful idea that people will stop what they love to do in a similar way that people refused to eat South african fruit in the 80's after the Dunnes workers striked is naive.

Someone is always gonna bring me smoke and I am always gonna smoke it. I had to buy diesel in 10 spots in the 80's from Anto in the middle of a field, I certainly am not complaining about the improvements in quality and better supply where I can buy a nice bit of maula from a friend...

I don't care where it came from. I just dont care.

I know many people aren't keen on stating that explicitly but there it is.

Wazdakka

The amount of Heroin I use is strictly recreational.

But what about those less fortunate than me?
Like builders, Or Blacks.

[/Chris Morris Quote]

thebman

At the end of the day you can look at the entire network of bad things that happen Vs products we use and link them in some way if you look deep enough.

The reason people don't do it is either denial or because them stopping won't make a difference to the original problem.

There are people in the network that if they decide it shouldn't be sourced from areas where all these bad things happen can make a much bigger change in the amount that comes from those sources. I'll give you a clue, we elect them.

Its a bit unrealistic to hassle people buying the stuff for the actions of other people in the network of how Cannabis gets to them. At the end of the day they didn't do it and just want the product, same as the lovely people that buy fashion items made by children in sweat shops.

Wertz

C.D. wrote: »

To quote you, the problem with "People suuch as yourself" is that you are more concerned with quoting people out of context and twisting the language used in posts to obscure their original meaning than having a proper discussion. Oh not to mention, picking up on typos to boost your own ego.

If you decide to actually read my posts, be reasonable enough to ignore typos and errors made in haste, discuss the point made and acknowledge I'm an individual who agrees with some of your opinions instead of automatically assuming I'm part of some brain washed zombie from the "anti-drug lobby" , I'll reply.

I'm not more concrened with quoting out of context, I'm trying to clear up what you meant with that statement about illegal drugs being this huge contributor to murders and rapes, which is a fallacy...I'm sorry but it is.

As for th typo issue, "suuch" is a typo...the OP used "hypocracy" at least three times in the thread so far...allow me to take issue with someone who wants to debate the finer points of the moral conscience of drug users or inform them of their evil doings, when they haven't even a clue how to spell relatively simple words, but have no problem with using them. It's nothing to do with ego or anything else...pedantry, sure, but ego? I have nothing to prove to anyone on here or to myself for that matter. Anyway that's all way OT and is just getting us further from the subject.

I did in fact read all your posts (just because I didn't quote it all or only selectively replied to it) and you're right, me taking umbrage to your stance and just lumping you in with those who are anti-drugs isn't fair. I apologise.

C.D. wrote:

"or by drug abusers"- i.e. people who abuse drugs. Not just people under the influence of those drugs. For the purposes of my point- replying to your post that:

But see that's a problem of defintion here too...you're saying that crimes are commited by those that use drugs (or are under the influence of, strung out for, whatever)...have you ever considered the idea that actually it just so happens that a lot of criminals use drugs, and that with or without the drugs, they'd still probably be criminals (and I don't mean people that are criminalised solely by their drug use here)...I have absolutely no doubt that the urge to buy drugs especially the harder and more addictive ones will fuel property crime and minor crimes against the person (mugging, pickpocketing, fraud etc), but your assertion in your first post that drug users contribute to a large proprtion of violent crimes against the person (murder, rape, gbh etc) as I've repeatedly stated are influenced far more by the use of alcohol either by those who are on other drugs or by those who simply drink.

I'm sorry for coming across like a dick last night, but some of the ignorance you see in posts on threads like these on here over the years has lead me to a policy of firing from the hip. It's confrontational and gets in the way of the issues as you said, but there you go...

Shelga wrote: »

I think others are more willing to look at all aspects of the situation than you tbh. You seem intent on disagreeing with everything even when you and a so-called "anti-drugs lobbyist" agree on a certain point, which comes across as childish and argumentative.

Forums by their definition invite argument...as stated to C.D above. my confrontational tone didn't help but I had my reasons. I tend to disagree with a lot of what I see on here (and not just in this thread).
I'm more than willing to look at other sides of it...but the difference is I have long term exposure to sides of this issue that others haven't had (of course other posters only have my word to take on that)...it's never as cut and dried as people like to make out in their anti-drugs posts...in the face of what to me is quite obviously an ill informed or intentioanlly misleading post, or statement of "fact" in that post, I will immeadiatly take issue with it and reply accordingly.
People don't like being told they're wrong (I certainly don't ) but in the face of argument and repeated asssertions that they're wrong or partially wrong, when someone won't admit they're wrong it gets nobody anywhere...I don't expect anyone to abandon their creed on the issue of drugs and such merely because some stoner argues otherwise with them, but it'd be nice to have the merits of any of our (pro-drug) arguments met with more than the usual rhetoric and outright denial that anyone but their side is correct. (not aimed at you C.D.)

Sorry for OT mods, but had to argue my corner.

meditraitor

Wertz wrote: »

I'm not more concrened with quoting out of context, I'm trying to clear up what you meant with that statement about illegal drugs being this huge contributor to murders and rapes, which is a fallacy...I'm sorry but it is.

As for th typo issue, "suuch" is a typo...the OP used "hypocracy" at least three times in the thread so far...allow me to take issue with someone who wants to debate the finer points of the moral conscience of drug users or inform them of their evil doings, when they haven't even a clue how to spell relatively simple words, but have no problem with using them. It's nothing to do with ego or anything else...pedantry, sure, but ego? I have nothing to prove to anyone on here or to myself for that matter. Anyway that's all way OT and is just getting us further from the subject.

I did in fact read all your posts (just because I didn't quote it all or only selectively replied to it) and you're right, me taking umbrage to your stance and just lumping you in with those who are anti-drugs isn't fair. I apologise.



But see that's a problem of defintion here too...you're saying that crimes are commited by those that use drugs (or are under the influence of, strung out for, whatever)...have you ever considered the idea that actually it just so happens that a lot of criminals use drugs, and that with or without the drugs, they'd still probably be criminals (and I don't mean people that are criminalised solely by their drug use here)...I have absolutely no doubt that the urge to buy drugs especially the harder and more addictive ones will fuel property crime and minor crimes against the person (mugging, pickpocketing, fraud etc), but your assertion in your first post that drug users contribute to a large proprtion of violent crimes against the person (murder, rape, gbh etc) as I've repeatedly stated are influenced far more by the use of alcohol either by those who are on other drugs or by those who simply drink.

I'm sorry for coming across like a dick last night, but some of the ignorance you see in posts on threads like these on here over the years has lead me to a policy of firing from the hip. It's confrontational and gets in the way of the issues as you said, but there you go...





Forums by their definition invite argument...as stated to C.D above. my confrontational tone didn't help but I had my reasons. I tend to disagree with a lot of what I see on here (and not just in this thread).
I'm more than willing to look at other sides of it...but the difference is I have long term exposure to sides of this issue that others haven't had (of course other posters only have my word to take on that)...it's never as cut and dried as people like to make out in their anti-drugs posts...in the face of what to me is quite obviously an ill informed or intentioanlly misleading post, or statement of "fact" in that post, I will immeadiatly take issue with it and reply accordingly.
People don't like being told they're wrong (I certainly don't ) but in the face of argument and repeated asssertions that they're wrong or partially wrong, when someone won't admit they're wrong it gets nobody anywhere...I don't expect anyone to abandon their creed on the issue of drugs and such merely because some stoner argues otherwise with them, but it'd be nice to have the merits of any of our (pro-drug) arguments met with more than the usual rhetoric and outright denial that anyone but their side is correct. (not aimed at you C.D.)

Sorry for OT mods, but had to argue my corner.

Your argument against the assertion that illegal drugs are a cause of Violent Crime is no more valid than the assertation that marajuana is harmless.

Only a sophist would argue this point, for the simple reason that under proper scrutiny you havent got a leg to stand on.

The illegal recreational drug trade and Illegal recreational drug use is a cause of many violent crimes against the person and your talent for avoiding answering valid points and posting long winded empty posts will never convince some, some being the people who have real experience and not honours A English and Pilosophical education to confuse and bend proven truths.

*truth

Ive taken and will take many recreational drugs in my lifetime but Im not arrogant enough to selectively ignore what effect they have had on others.
Just because I am relatively OK it doesnt mean other are.

As for your crazy repetitive "drink is worse argument" this is not the point and if that is the foundation of your argument goodluck, you wont get any body to debate from such a rediculous standpoint.

The OP was questioning how people feel about feeding scumbag drug dealers and us being partially to blame for many murders and other hainous crimes against people and all you can do is try to twist this into a "they should be legal anyway" argument.

Answer the question

How do you feel about being partially to blame for Murders and other crimes?

If you dont want to answer dont dilute the subject of the thread with nonsense.

As for me I feel awfull but human nature being what it is I will find a way to excuse myself next time I purchase recreational drugs.......

Sorry for OT mods, but had to argue .............

Sleepy

As an occasional weed smoker I've thought about it and would consider myself less to blame than a government afraid to change it's stance towards a less-harmful drug than many they practically promote. Nevermind their blindness to the potential revenue streams from promoting grow your own / licensed vendors possibilities.

ScumLord

meditraitor wrote: »

Ive taken and will take many recreational drugs in my lifetime but Im not arrogant enough to selectively ignore what effect they have had on others.
Just because I am relatively OK it doesnt mean other are.

That makes you like the majority of drug users though. For most people the only illegal thing they do is buy drugs. They never go out and use crime to fund their drug use. Using the acts of a small minority to tarnish all drug users isn't really fair. It's the legality of the drugs that encourages the use of crime and violence. That's why I just can't take the blame for the people with no morals to begin with doing bad things. Drugs have always been there and it's only now under prohibition that they're causing a real serious problem for society.

Organised crime is not something I can solve by not using drugs, so why should my short time on this earth be restricted because of the actions of others? It's like with anything else in a nanny state, do we let a small minority of idiots and scum restrict the freedoms and hobbies of everyone else or deal with the real reasons behind the crime.

People are just not going to stop using drugs. That's a fact. Whether that's right or wrong doesn't matter at this stage, what we're doing isn't working and we need to change our tactics for dealing with it.

Stev_o

Sleepy wrote: »

As an occasional weed smoker I've thought about it and would consider myself less to blame than a government afraid to change it's stance towards a less-harmful drug than many they practically promote. Nevermind their blindness to the potential revenue streams from promoting grow your own / licensed vendors possibilities.

So a freely available weed will solve every problem this country has? As a country we can't even fecking use alcohol in moderation adding another drug to the legal list is just pure madness.

Boggle

The illegal recreational drug trade and Illegal recreational drug use is a cause of many violent crimes against the person

Ah, but its only illegal because of a bad law - ie one which stands up to no form of scrutiny at all.
Get rid of the law and we will still smoke to our hearts content - only difference is that there is no violence.

So basically, whether someone smokes or not does not create violence. But banning things which you have no right to ban does.

ScumLord

Stev_o wrote: »

So a freely available weed will solve every problem this country has? As a country we can't even fecking use alcohol in moderation adding another drug to the legal list is just pure madness.

That just doesn't make sense, they're two completely different drugs. Cannabis and drink have two completely different effects on people and mixing the two will turn you into a vegetable it won't make you more violent. You'll more than likely find that if cannabis use does increase people will be drinking less because mixing one or two pints with your spliff isn't all that enjoyable unless you like being unable to move.

If effect your talking about replacing drink with cannabis for some people or giving others the option of trying cannabis but you won't find many people capable of doing both wandering the streets at night causing trouble.

Wertz

meditraitor wrote: »

Your argument against the assertion that illegal drugs are a cause of Violent Crime is no more valid than the assertation that marajuana is harmless.

Only a sophist would argue this point, for the simple reason that under proper scrutiny you havent got a leg to stand on.

How haven't I a leg to stand on?
Drugs don't make you go out and commit a violent crime simply because you're under their influence, marijuana especially....but then you already know that. C.D used the instance of someone in the US removing their child's eyes whilst on PCP...and got called on it.

My post was arguing with C.D about his statement:
And it is indisputable that the majority of murders in this country are linked to drug gangs or committed by drug abusers.
...yes it is disputable. Just because inner city shootings get more headline and airtime than people "normally" murdering each other across the country does not mean that the majority of murders in this State are commited by/linked to drugs gangs or necessarily commited by drug users.

When I asked for evidence I got none (which I didn't expect to) because that theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny either.
Instead I found a relevant stat (which to be fair isn't backed up to an actual study) which states that almost 50% of those charged with murder here were intoxicated when they commited the crime. Perhaps figures exist for illicit drugs..I couldn't find any.

meditraitor wrote: »

The illegal recreational drug trade and Illegal recreational drug use is a cause of many violent crimes against the person and your talent for avoiding answering valid points and posting long winded empty posts will never convince some, some being the people who have real experience and not honours A English and Pilosophical education to confuse and bend proven truths.

Your purple text I have no argument about..."many" is bit of a misnomer and doesn't provide a definitive % of how it affects overall violent cimes against the person...and to blame them directly for rape and murder at the levels that poster suggested is wrong.
Can I prove that? No.
I can only go by memories of what I hear on the news every week, year in year out...murders happen all over the country and people are as likely to be murdered by a relative or friend as they are by a stranger, as likely to be kicked to death as shot, as likely to be strangled as stabbed, be there drugs involved or not.
Again, it's the headline Paul Williams type murders that garner the most attention...crime and drugs sell so they get more column inches and remain in the public consciouness for longer. Lesser murders don't get but a cursory mention on the news, a day or two in the papers and trails/convictions only get real press coverage when there is a drugs/gangland angle.

As for your remarks on long winded posts? Excuse me for not being able to express what I'm trying to get across to people without having to rehash arguments that have already been made to further a point, without extending to several paragraphs...would a "LOL that is so BS" suit you better?
Are you saying I haven't real experience? Leaving cert english and philospical education (whatever that is) aside I've been using drugs (hash, weed, E,and to a lesser extent LSD, mushrooms speed ) recreationally for about 18yrs and bad has come with the good, I never denied that...but again the negative experiences I see expressed in the media and by the anti drugs lobby, don't tie in with my personal experiences, those of my friends and judging by much of the stuff that crops up in these threads, a lot of people elsewhere.
"Proven truths" ? Where? All I see are opinions.
It was a C btw...

meditraitor wrote: »

Ive taken and will take many recreational drugs in my lifetime but Im not arrogant enough to selectively ignore what effect they have had on others.
Just because I am relatively OK it doesnt mean other are.

But yet it's okay for others to be arrogant in their views against drugs but yet have no direct personal experience of them? There are probably an awful lot of people out there who have experience of crime...and if they're to believe the general consensus as inspired by the media, that crime was influenced by drugs...and yes, some of it was. But not all of it, not the vast majority of it...we had crimes in this country long before we had illicit drugs to blame it all on.

The bit in bold I agree with...

meditraitor wrote: »

As for your crazy repetitive "drink is worse argument" this is not the point and if that is the foundation of your argument goodluck, you wont get any body to debate from such a rediculous standpoint.

It inevitably crops up in these threads though, like it or not...I didn't start it, I'm merely running with it because of this huge blindspot that people who'll argue all day about drugs causing violent crime but will hear nothing bad said about their drug of choice which happens to be legal.
I know this wasn't the idea of the thread...both myself and Dudess have already posted about how we always end up at this argument...

meditraitor wrote: »

The OP was questioning how people feel about feeding scumbag drug dealers and us being partially to blame for many murders and other hainous crimes against people and all you can do is try to twist this into a "they should be legal anyway" argument.

Answer the question

How do you feel about being partially to blame for Murders and other crimes?

As for me I feel awfull but human nature being what it is I will find a way to excuse myself next time I purchase recreational drugs.......

I already answered this on post# 113...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61367985&postcount=113

meditraitor wrote: »

If you dont want to answer dont dilute the subject of the thread with nonsense.

Sorry for OT mods, but had to argue .............

Touché

Oh I see what you did there...

hidinginthebush

Haven't read the whole thread, but I will throw my hat into the ring and say I love weed. Don't care much for coke though

genericguy

hidinginthebush wrote: »

Haven't read the whole thread, but I will throw my hat into the ring and say I love weed. Don't care much for coke though

why you are love weed but not love coke? this means that in this case, weed are not the gateway drugs. WE. MUST. PUBLISH!!!

*in-joke... the rest of you fcukers wish you knew what that meant.

+1, fan of green, but you wouldn't ever catch me sticking powder from deco's shed up me nose.
no pills, no powder.

MIN2511

anonymous_joe wrote: »

They're made out of powdered puppies.

Canis Lupus

I'm smoking a spliff right now.

You should see my face.


Well.... no you shouldn't but guilty definitely isn't on it.

Dudess

Why do some people get so irritated by the "alcohol can also cause devastation to the individual and their family and society" argument? Because it's true?

dearg lady

Dudess wrote: »

Why do some people get so irritated by the "alcohol can also cause devastation to the individual and their family and society" argument? Because it's true?

with some people it's like talkin to a brick wall, they just don't want to hear it :rolleyes:

jackson2009

used to smoke weed, made me too lazy though had to stop

oppenheimer1

Oh The Humanity wrote: »

But there is a market for it.....that is never gonna change....

I certainly am not gonna desist from using the beloved stuff just because some crimelords have jumped on the bandwagon and got in on the scene.

Why the hell should I make that personal sacrifice?

Is that what you're suggesting?

That smokers should 'vote with their feet' -its not going to happen. Cloud cuckoo land.

I've grown my own and frankly, the watering the lights, the messing about. I don't have the time or the space.

Smokers (if I am typical and I reckon I am) don't 'care' on demand when the 'media' decides to hype a particular issue to horrify the 'moral majority'.
This particlar campaign seems to have fallen on deaf ears anyway. I dont meet anyone in day to day life who gives a sh1t what some bulldog covered in indian ink is doing in Limerick or Tallaght. The more they shoot each other the better as far as Im concerned.

But neither am I deluded enough to imagine all my stashes come from Mr. Nice. Truth is it makes no difference to me.

The fanciful idea that people will stop what they love to do in a similar way that people refused to eat South african fruit in the 80's after the Dunnes workers striked is naive.

Someone is always gonna bring me smoke and I am always gonna smoke it. I had to buy diesel in 10 spots in the 80's from Anto in the middle of a field, I certainly am not complaining about the improvements in quality and better supply where I can buy a nice bit of maula from a friend...

I don't care where it came from. I just dont care.

I know many people aren't keen on stating that explicitly but there it is.

Your honesty is refreshing. Now to drag this thread kicking and screaming back on topic.

oppenheimer1

Wertz wrote: »

As for th typo issue, "suuch" is a typo...the OP used "hypocracy" at least three times in the thread so far...allow me to take issue with someone who wants to debate the finer points of the moral conscience of drug users or inform them of their evil doings, when they haven't even a clue how to spell relatively simple words, but have no problem with using them. It's nothing to do with ego or anything else...pedantry, sure, but ego? I have nothing to prove to anyone on here or to myself for that matter. Anyway that's all way OT and is just getting us further from the subject.

To get into my spelling is pedantic and highly off topic. Its posts like that which dilute your argument tbh. Yes, I'm not the best writer in Ireland [I try to have grammar and syntax as correct as I can], but thats not the point, please address my OP and the posts others have made if you want this discussion to remain meaningful. You also posted that gangland killings only accounted for 20% of murders. Well I think it would be admirable if we could cut the murder rate by a fifth nationally.

I feel this thread needs a human element, its gone too theoretical and out of touch with reality.Its disappointing that I have to post a link like this: http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0315/gilligan.html

RTE wrote:

Gardaí estimate that over 20,000 kilos were brought through cork yielding a net profit of over £14m.

Yes thats TWENTY THOUSAND KILOS. Its no stretch of the imagination that much of it ended up in the hands of casual users in the end.
Lads and ladies, this is the type of person your money goes too when you purchase your hash/coke whatever. That money funds the lavish lifestyle and the guns if you needed reminding while at the same time giving two fingers to the State. I could put up hundreds more similar links but I think you get the gist.

Yes, alcohol and tobacco are damaging substances, I'm not arguing with that, their abuse also causes profound harm to society. Its something we as a people must deal with, there is more than one social issue in this country. Thats not the point of this thread. However they are legal, their use doesn't fund criminal activity. If posters want to discuss the merits or otherwise of legally available substances, use the start thread button.

To return to the topic at hand, if you love the stuff so much, be serious about getting it legalised, and stop handing money over to these people.

You blame the system, the government, the man, everyone but your apathetic self.