Veggies and GM food

Mark Hamill

In the first post of the Vegetarian (etc.) bargains/special offers thread, the OP warns against a product containing GM soya beans so I have put u a poll because I am wondering what other veggies opinions are on GM foods.
Personally I have no problem with eating something GM, as long as it is vegetarian and while I am not at all against more and more independant health and enviromental studies being done on the different types of GM crops, I think that a lot (not all) of the objections come from peoples knee jerk disapproval of anything deemed "not natural".

Eviecus

I wouldn't eat GM foods. I know I have probably accidentally eaten some but it freaks me out a little so I would never consciously eat them.

Mark Hamill

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Eviecus wrote: »

I wouldn't eat GM foods. I know I have probably accidentally eaten some but it freaks me out a little so I would never consciously eat them.

Why does it freak you out? what do you think could happen?

Thoushaltnot

I would eat GM foods as along as they where vegan

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why does it freak you out? what do you think could happen?

Because I'm an airy-faery free-lovin hippy peace-n-love nik thats always gonna side with those kerazy Friends of the Earth/Greenpeace "nutjobs" over Monsanto. Typical middle class dreamer. Needs to get a job.

Sarcasm to one side for a mo. I don't know enough of the science but that means that I don't know enough of the science to give it a thumbs up. Their unwillingness to publish studies is a red flag as are the accusations and counter accusations.
The science of frankenfoods is in it's relative infancy and I don't want to be an example in what could be the future "Silent Spring". I did research this years ago and was left unconvinced.

Hang on for a second - my tinfoil is about to unravel and expose my precious brainwaves.

Aha, thats better.

When there are many thorough and independent studies in the public domain, that I feel I can trust, then I'll revisit this. And when enough time has passed, without any unforseen effects coming to light, and coming to light the bad way, then we'll see.

You wanna be potentially, a long term, unpaid guinea pig, go for it!

I do not. I will not.

Tar.Aldarion

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

'Natural' does not come into it for me, the human diet changes all the time, nothing we eat is 'natural' now really, and it is a meaningless term anyway. Are there dangers? Possibly. GM food has been around for about 20 years now hasn't it? Haven't really seen any problems, of course genetic engineering is new to us, and people will be frightened, new technology should lead to wariness. Only down side is no long-term safety testing, same thing as there was with phones, it'll kill you because we don't know that it won't for sure! I don't see much difference in the eugenically created foods like bananas and tomatoes we eat today and GM food, is there?

Mark Hamill

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Thoushaltnot wrote: »

When there are many thorough and independent studies in the public domain, that I feel I can trust, then I'll revisit this. And when enough time has passed, without any unforseen effects coming to light, and coming to light the bad way, then we'll see.

You wanna be potentially, a long term, unpaid guinea pig, go for it!

I do not. I will not.

You realise GM foods have been on the market around for over 15 years right? Chances are you already are a long term guinea pig.
Besides there are plenty of chemicals in non GM consumables that have caused unforeseen effects in people-look at all the food colourings that are banned.
What you are saying-question the studies made by industry, make independant and long term studies- these also apply to non GM foodstuffs too, because nothing, either natural or artificial or GM is inherently good or bad for you simply because of where its sourced or how its made.

Mark Hamill

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

'Natural' does not come into it for me, the human diet changes all the time, nothing we eat is 'natural' now really, and it is a meaningless term anyway.

"Natural" is a buzz word companies put on their food packaging to justify adding 20% to the price.

Thoushaltnot

I would eat GM foods as along as they where vegan

Mark Hamill wrote: »

"Natural" is a buzz word companies put on their food packaging to justify adding 20% to the price.

Amen, brother. Not just "natural" but a whole host of labels and labelling practice are well suspect (I was lucky enough to catch that Channel 4 expose on how misleading our food labelling, packaging and marketing is). Anyhow, Ebola is natural, as are sharks. Quorn, which I love is not so much.

But I don't trust GM. The more I study, the less I trust.

And yes, soya products seem to be the among, if not are the most GM contaminated foodstuffs around and since I'm veggie, I'd eat more than the average Irish person.

Crossing one breed of tomatoe with another or breeding the most insect resistant plants of a breed with each other is just hurrying up evolution in a defined system (the one that suits humans the best). Transplanting a gene from an artic dwelling fish, to make it more frost resistant - clever science but ultimately? That's the change we can see initially /want. What other changes does it make to the organism that we haven't copped yet? And more particularly to us when this chemical passes through into out bloodstreams? Maybe frostbite would become a thing of the past in humans. And maybe our lungs will start shrinking and we now have a gene that will try to produce gills but that will only show up in genetic mutations several generations down the line. Can you guarantee down the line that this will *not* happen? What can't we see....yet?
Maybe it's right in front of our eyes and we haven't made the link.

15 years is *not* long enough for me here.

Chernobyl isn't much older than GM then and we're still learning.

Ouchette

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Transplanting a gene from an artic dwelling fish, to make it more frost resistant - clever science but ultimately? That's the change we can see initially /want. What other changes does it make to the organism that we haven't copped yet? And more particularly to us when this chemical passes through into out bloodstreams? Maybe frostbite would become a thing of the past in humans. And maybe our lungs will start shrinking and we now have a gene that will try to produce gills but that will only show up in genetic mutations several generations down the line.

But eating something doesn't actually allow us to aquire the genetics of the food, does it? Like no matter how many green things I eat, I'm not going to acquire the ability to photosynthesise; I just get the vitamins and iron and stuff.

I have some concerns about GM food, but they'd be about loss of diversity and Monsanto having too much power, not health.

Tar.Aldarion

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Yes, although her science may not be accurate at least there is the point of 'unseen risks'. I just think that they come with every food and technology anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Much like people thinking microwaves or mobile phones would fry our brain, I will only worry when there are signs! And I really doubt there will be.

AssaultedPeanut

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

I meant to click "I'd eat GM foods as long as they were vegan" but clicked "....as long as they were vegetarian" by mistake. Doesn't make that much difference to the arguement really, but it was kind of irritating me.
That is all

Eviecus

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why does it freak you out? what do you think could happen?

I don't understand it enough to eat it. I don't see why something has to be GM, there's no real need for it when fruit and veg can be produced naturally instead. I try eat as natural a diet as possible.

taram

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Ouchette wrote: »

But eating something doesn't actually allow us to aquire the genetics of the food, does it? Like no matter how many green things I eat, I'm not going to acquire the ability to photosynthesise; I just get the vitamins and iron and stuff.

I have some concerns about GM food, but they'd be about loss of diversity and Monsanto having too much power, not health.

+1 I feel the same way.

This is pretty close to my heart since my degree is actually in plant biotechnology (and I get to now work in a shoe shop, that went well :P). Even within my classes I've been queried that I can't be a vegetarian and be positive about GM.

Mark Hamill

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Eviecus wrote: »

I don't understand it enough to eat it. I don't see why something has to be GM, there's no real need for it when fruit and veg can be produced naturally instead.

Improvements in crop output and crop quality are always needed. If you can get more crop from a piece of land than its better for the economy as it makes crops easier to farm and less land is needed in general for farming, thus making improvements to crops (GM or otherwise) better for the enviroment. Besides, the fruit and veg you eat now aren't grown naturally. They are planted by someone who sprays fertilizer and insectiside on them.

Eviecus wrote: »

I try eat as natural a diet as possible.

You're a vegetarian, how "natural" is that?
Is none of your food processed? Do you just go around pulling naturally growing vegetables from the ground and eating them? What about your clothes, do you wear fig leaves? What makes you think "natural" is better?

Mark Hamill

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Yes, although her science may not be accurate at least there is the point of 'unseen risks'. I just think that they come with every food and technology anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Much like people thinking microwaves or mobile phones would fry our brain, I will only worry when there are signs! And I really doubt there will be.

Tbh, I wouldn't say the risks don't matter, just because their are risks in other apsects of life, I just don't think that the risks with GM foods should be singled out, when there are still risks with non GM food anyway.

Tar.Aldarion

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

I don't mean to ignore them, each food/technology should be intensively watched. I am agreeing, I don't see why there is such a big fuss about gm foods, one thing and not another. When we breeded the banana we commonly eat, I wonder did everybody think we would be harmed by it, or is it because of sciences involvement that people are far more wary.

raah!

My biology teacher once told me of the horrid consequences of mis-folded proteins. Sometimes these make things called prions, which can go a long and make other cells mis-fold proteins as well. It wouldn't be ridiculous to suppose that these GM things would have a higher incidence of misfolding proteins... but that's only because I don't know anything about the nature of protein misfolding or genetic engineering

Edit: upon wikipedia-ing and googling, it seems when prions and genetic engineering come together, people only mention genetic engineering things to be free of these proteins.

Collie147

Hey Marko, why set up a poll when you're just going to try to take people's opinions to pieces. I'm a veggie, I would PREFER not to eat GM foods because there is a chance that genetically modified organisms can lead to cells that are not native to that species. I buy organic where it is available, because the methods of farming are better, safer, more ecological and economical.

Besides, the fruit and veg you eat now aren't grown naturally. They are planted by someone who sprays fertilizer and insectiside on them

Pesticides are used on GM foods too. Since when are they immune to bugs? They GM them so they're more resistant to disease, which, if you're a good farmer you will make sure your soil doesnt get infected in the first place. Look up the Irish Times articles about the organic garden in the Phoenix Park. Take an unbiased, informed approach.

You're a vegetarian, how "natural" is that?
Is none of your food processed? Do you just go around pulling naturally growing vegetables from the ground and eating them? What about your clothes, do you wear fig leaves? What makes you think "natural" is better?

Yes Natural is a buzz word in marketing, but before the agricultural revolution things were grown more naturally (without eff-in quotations cos its a word in the english dictionary) where the manure from one farm was used to grow the vegetables in the other, which was produced by animals that didnt eat feed that was made by their own kind or other livestock, it was made from the vegetables that the farmer couldnt sell, which is the way it should be. The majority of farm animals are herbivores, and it may surprise you to know that the majority of Irish people were too up until farming became more industrialised and meats were made cheap enough for everybody to afford, yet it was still only once a week.

I'm getting off topic here, but thats what organic means, taking into account the methods discovered during the agricultural revolution and putting them with the original farming methods, growing vegetables beside vegetables that naturally repel the insects that lay eggs on them, using netting to cover up a patch of cabbage leaves so butterflies cant lay their eggs on them, and if they did it meant that that was left alone so their offspring could fertilize the fruits in the area NATURALLY, not by a farmers hands.

Although GM has been around for 20 years or so so has irradiation... but not enough research has been done to prove that either are safe. 200 years after the agricultural revolution they're realising that feeding cows to cows eventually results in CJD. Isn't it entirely possible that genetically modified vegetables could cause a form of cancer that has not been linked with GM? I'm not talking about cross pollination here, carrots used to be blue, I'm talking about genetically modifying the seeds of a plant that you will injest day in and day out for 70 or 80 years.

Think about it!

taram

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Collie147 wrote: »

Pesticides are used on GM foods too. Since when are they immune to bugs? They GM them so they're more resistant to disease, which, if you're a good farmer you will make sure your soil doesnt get infected in the first place.

Immune since 1985- BT gene. Pretty much every trait of interest that I can think of has been inserted into plants commerically-frost resistance, drought resistance, height modification, insect resistance. Most plant diseases have nothing to do with the soil being infected, they're air borne in the form of spores, virii are often transmitted via a vector like an insect etc.

In terms of natural living, large-scale practise organic will only work for some crops, and even then you're always at such risk of a small patch of fungus taking out every single plant for fields around. These sort of risks have to be weighed up with the beauty of the organic system. I definitly believe we should have a more holistic, sustainable approach to agriculture as a whole, but using modern techniques too such as large-scale farming, using the likes of infa-red to monitor watering to allow economy of water use, crop breeding, some chemicals (treating more than preventative spraying) etc. but I do feel that the future of at least some sectors of agriculture is going to have to rely on GM because crossbreeding by humans is too damn slow and too damn expensive, and our environment and world population is changing too fast for us to rely on older techniques, we need every bit of help we can get.

ztoical

I've no issue with GM foods per say. I tend to buy my veg local from the farmers market more to get it freash and support local jobs then to avoid gm crops. I wouldn't avoid gm foods due being vegetarian but I would avoid if the labeling wasn't clear - saying something has been genetically modified is all well in good but how has it been modified? From the point of view of food allergies one would want to know if nuts/shell fish/etc have been used or from a weight loss/control view has corn sryup been added [if in the US assume it has, they put it in everything and they don't have to tell you if they don't want to]

The only other issue I would have with GM foods is that we simply don't need so much food, we waste so much its depressing. People are too use to getting the same veg all year round now rather then changing with the seasons.

Mark Hamill

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Collie147 wrote: »

Hey Marko, why set up a poll when you're just going to try to take people's opinions to pieces.

Whats wrong with doing both?

Collie147 wrote: »

I'm a veggie, I would PREFER not to eat GM foods because there is a chance that genetically modified organisms can lead to cells that are not native to that species.

But when if you eat meat or veg you are taking in cells which are not native to your species and thats not generally a problem.

Collie147 wrote: »

I buy organic where it is available, because the methods of farming are better, safer, more ecological and economical.

Better how? Safe how? Wiping out massive patches of the countryside to plant more and more organically grown vegtables is now more ecological now? And as for economical, are you serious? Why do you think companies would use GM methods if they where less economical? Do you think the companies are purposely wasting money in an effort to hurt people with GM foods? Do you think Dr. Evil runs these places or something?

Collie147 wrote: »

Yes Natural is a buzz word in marketing, but before the agricultural revolution things were grown more naturally (without eff-in quotations cos its a word in the english dictionary) where the manure from one farm was used to grow the vegetables in the other, which was produced by animals that didnt eat feed that was made by their own kind or other livestock, it was made from the vegetables that the farmer couldnt sell, which is the way it should be.

I use "natural" in quotations because the way you talk of growing foods isn't natural. Truely naturally grown foods are foods that aren't planted by people, arent watered by people and arent mass harvested by people. That would be a ridiculous way to have farming. Even the methods that you describe involve people cross breeding plants to get better yielding strains, something which wouldn't happen "naturally"

Collie147 wrote: »

I'm getting off topic here, but thats what organic means, taking into account the methods discovered during the agricultural revolution and putting them with the original farming methods, growing vegetables beside vegetables that naturally repel the insects that lay eggs on them, using netting to cover up a patch of cabbage leaves so butterflies cant lay their eggs on them, and if they did it meant that that was left alone so their offspring could fertilize the fruits in the area NATURALLY, not by a farmers hands.

Actually it may surprise you to know, but organic means you are allowed to use fertilizers and pesticides, just not the synthetic variety. Besides if the methods of agriculture used during the agricultural revolution are so good, why dont we still use the medicinal treatments from that time, the social views or industrial methods? Its because the idea that they are still applicable in these days and that they give healthier and better crops was created by the organic food companies who then go on to chrage top dollar for their foods.

Collie147 wrote: »

Although GM has been around for 20 years or so so has irradiation... but not enough research has been done to prove that either are safe.

No research has been done that proves its unsafe, and all the research done so far says there is no danger. HOw much research is there to say organic food is safer?

Collie147 wrote: »

200 years after the agricultural revolution they're realising that feeding cows to cows eventually results in CJD. Isn't it entirely possible that genetically modified vegetables could cause a form of cancer that has not been linked with GM? I'm not talking about cross pollination here, carrots used to be blue, I'm talking about genetically modifying the seeds of a plant that you will injest day in and day out for 70 or 80 years.

You do know that during the BSE scare that Great Britain identified at least 215 cases of the disease on thirty-six different organic farms? Organic food isn't immune to this sort of thing either, and seeing as you aren't calling for 70-80 years of studies to be done on your organic food too, it looks like you are just caught up in the organic food hype.

Collie147 wrote: »

Think about it!

I have thought about it. I've also read about it. About how organic food is no healthier than the alternative . About how organic food is worse for the enviroment as it requires more land to produce and greater distances to ship. If you're interested, here are some more links debunking the organic food myths: Linky & Linky.

Mark Hamill

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

ztoical wrote: »

I've no issue with GM foods per say. I tend to buy my veg local from the farmers market more to get it freash and support local jobs then to avoid gm crops. I wouldn't avoid gm foods due being vegetarian but I would avoid if the labeling wasn't clear - saying something has been genetically modified is all well in good but how has it been modified? From the point of view of food allergies one would want to know if nuts/shell fish/etc have been used or from a weight loss/control view has corn sryup been added [if in the US assume it has, they put it in everything and they don't have to tell you if they don't want to]

Thats something that never occure to me, if allergies can be
effected by a food modified with something that you are allergic to, that would be serious. Besides that I would still want GM foods fully labelled as as a vegetarian, I hate not knowing if my food has meat in it.

ztoical wrote: »

The only other issue I would have with GM foods is that we simply don't need so much food, we waste so much its depressing. People are too use to getting the same veg all year round now rather then changing with the seasons.

I wouldn't say thats a reason not to use GM foods, just a reason to educate people to make better use of their food. If we used GM crops and people where more efficient with their food, then maybe we wouldn't need so much farm land, and deforestation could be curbed.

Eviecus

I don't see the point in me responding anymore in this thread because Mark Hamill is just shooting me and others down, people are entitled to their own opinions. Not everyone thinks the same. I consider this behaviour to be inappropriate and I also think he is just trying to start arguments. I don't see the point in me posting on this site at all if there isn't adequate moderation of people flaming other posters.

I was so happy to have found a forum where I can talk to Irish vegetarians and vegans. I foolishly thought we were here to support one another and to have a laugh. Well I'm not getting either of those things.

Tar.Aldarion

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

It is a debate forum too! He has not flamed anybody. That is not flaming. If he abuses you, report it, I have not seen any though.

You do not have to take part in this thread if you do not wish. You do not have to justify yourself to him, just yourself, if you do not want to. I am quite interested in reading these different views and debate, I'm sure others are too. Some people do not enjoy it, so I would suggest just leaving your opinion and ignoring replies if you don't want a debate.

Collie147

It seems that you've made up your mind about this.
I know organic farming methods use natural fertilizer, there's a difference between the words natural and wild, I can post a complete history of how organic farming methods (not hype I actually grow my own veggies, I have friends that run farms and every day I cook my own food that contains and much of the ingredients grown organically as I can find) CAN BE cheaper and more ecological and taste better.

Mad cow disease was linked with CJD only in the last 10 years but the disease that existed was caused by cows being fed meats when it is not naturally their diets, and those meats were of a substandard product that was not sold to humans. If you would prefer to buy GM beef go for it by all means. This disease spread to other farms as it is a disease.

And no I dont think the researchers that create GM foods are evil, but neither were the researchers that thought irradiation was a good idea either, and they're still debating whether to irradiate products in the US so they last longer, even though the evidence suggests that they might have ill effects. But even so some ill effects can take generations before they become apparent. Aluminium has been linked to alzheimers but they still sell aluminium foil and pack acidic foods in aluminium cans.

There is a distinct difference between medical methods and agricultural ones, although I'd prefer that many of the tests they do are not on animals, in particular on sentient species.

Thats fine I'm not going to debate my own opinion with yours, next you'll be telling me that the moon landings were faked and paste in links of proof that it didn't happen. If you really want a debate pose rational arguements.

Crumble Froo

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

personally, i put enough dodgy chemicals in my body already to not be particularly worried about gm foods, tbh.

as long as stuff i eat/use/consume hasnt been tested on animals somewhere down teh line, then im happy, tbh.

Mark Hamill

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Collie147 wrote: »

I can post a complete history of how organic farming methods (not hype I actually grow my own veggies, I have friends that run farms and every day I cook my own food that contains and much of the ingredients grown organically as I can find) CAN BE cheaper and more ecological and taste better.

And so companies who dont use organic methods are just using them for the fun of it? Just to purposely waste money, damage the enviroment and give worse tasting food? I'm sorry, but I have to call BS on that. All these companies, organic or otherwise, are about the bottom line- profits. If they they could grow the amount of food they needed in less land, with cheaper costs and still result in tastier food (and therefore sell more) then they would jump on it. Your argument doesn't add up.

Collie147 wrote: »

Mad cow disease was linked with CJD only in the last 10 years but the disease that existed was caused by cows being fed meats when it is not naturally their diets, and those meats were of a substandard product that was not sold to humans. If you would prefer to buy GM beef go for it by all means. This disease spread to other farms as it is a disease.

My point on BSE was only about how a lot of organic farms in england also reported cases of BSE occuring in them, that their organic farming methods where no defense to the transfering of the disease.

Collie147 wrote: »

And no I dont think the researchers that create GM foods are evil, but neither were the researchers that thought irradiation was a good idea either, and they're still debating whether to irradiate products in the US so they last longer, even though the evidence suggests that they might have ill effects. But even so some ill effects can take generations before they become apparent.

There have been studies that have found that there is no ill effects and studies have found that there can be, I am in full support of more studies being made on irridation not to mention GM foods or almost anything else, you can think of, you can never have too many studies. Although you need to remember, there is no studies on organical food either (none outside those comparing them to alternative foods anyway).

Collie147 wrote: »

Aluminium has been linked to alzheimers but they still sell aluminium foil and pack acidic foods in aluminium cans.

Even the Alzeimhers Society has said there is no proof yet that aluminium has any causal effect on the onset of alzeimhers.

Collie147 wrote: »

There is a distinct difference between medical methods and agricultural ones, although I'd prefer that many of the tests they do are not on animals, in particular on sentient species.

I wasn't talking about medicinal studies, I was talking about hospital practices, ie the techniques used by doctors and the drugs that where available. If the agricltural techniques used in the agricultural revolution are good enough for today, why not the medicinal practises? I think you are appealing to a "It was better in the olden days" argument when saying that the agricultural revolution methods are still enough today.

Collie147 wrote: »

Thats fine I'm not going to debate my own opinion with yours, next you'll be telling me that the moon landings were faked and paste in links of proof that it didn't happen. If you really want a debate pose rational arguements.

My arguments are rational. I have given links from websites to support my points, but instead of trying to refute my points or the websites, you compare me to conspiracy theory nuts and claim I'm being irrational. Typical tactics from someone whose argument doesn't have a leg to stand on, I have to say.

Mark Hamill

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Eviecus wrote: »

I don't see the point in me responding anymore in this thread because Mark Hamill is just shooting me and others down, people are entitled to their own opinions. Not everyone thinks the same. I consider this behaviour to be inappropriate and I also think he is just trying to start arguments.

Welcome to a discusion forum. If you want to be able to leave unquestioned opinions on the internet then start a blog.

Eviecus wrote: »

I don't see the point in me posting on this site at all if there isn't adequate moderation of people flaming other posters.

Where have I flamed?

Eviecus wrote: »

I was so happy to have found a forum where I can talk to Irish vegetarians and vegans. I foolishly thought we were here to support one another and to have a laugh. Well I'm not getting either of those things.

This is still a forum where you can talk to irish vegetarians and vegans. Just because you and another person happen to be vegetarian or vegan, doesn't mean you will agree on every single issue and the beauty of this forum is that you get to talk them out in a civilized way.

Collie147

Ok forget everything else said, my point is I wouldnt eat GM foods because they've been modified at a cellular level that is not intended by natural evolution. There are plenty of crops that are grown every year on an all year round basis and there is enough food on this planet to feed the world 5 times over. I Personally would not eat GM food if they were Vegan/Vegetarian. If GM foods were properly labelled as to what was modified or clearly marked with a big GM on them I'd accept it. I could also understand GM corn that has been made heat resistant grown in areas that are prone to desertification being grown I could understand but again I would not ingest such products on a personal basis of opinion.

Mark Hamill

I would NOT eat GM foods even if they where vegetarian

Collie147 wrote: »

Ok forget everything else said, my point is I wouldnt eat GM foods because they've been modified at a cellular level that is not intended by natural evolution.

Natural evolution is an innanimate process, it has no intentions. Besides, cross breeding plants results in new plants that are different in a cellular level. The difference I suppose is that plants could in theory end up with cross bred cellular modifications through natural interaction with other plants, while GM usually involves modification in a way which wouldn't occur naturally. I still think its a moot point as the same thing applies to medicines: most of the medicines you would take during your life arent naturally occuring, either in cellular structure or in the concentrations and mixtures that are given, yet I dont hear you calling for a return to the agricultural revolution time equivilent of medicinal practise.

Collie147 wrote: »

There are plenty of crops that are grown every year on an all year round basis and there is enough food on this planet to feed the world 5 times over.

1) Source?
2) So what? Even if we could feed the world many times over with our current practises should we still not strive to be more and more efficient with our food (be it growing them or using them)? It would be better for the enviroment (less farmland needed) and more economical (easier to grow food means cheaper food).

Collie147 wrote: »

I Personally would not eat GM food if they were Vegan/Vegetarian. If GM foods were properly labelled as to what was modified or clearly marked with a big GM on them I'd accept it.

I'm not trying to make you eat GM food, if you don't want to fine then don't. I'm only disputing your reasoning. As for labeling, I wouldn't want a big "GM" on GM foods, I want the source of the GM (what specific animal, insect or plant they whe genes where taken from)to be put on the foods so that people who dont want to eat a particular animal because of lifestyle choices, or people who have allergy issues can make their own decisions fully informed.

Collie147

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Natural evolution is an innanimate process, it has no intentions. Besides, cross breeding plants results in new plants that are different in a cellular level. The difference I suppose is that plants could in theory end up with cross bred cellular modifications through natural interaction with other plants, while GM usually involves modification in a way which wouldn't occur naturally. I still think its a moot point as the same thing applies to medicines: most of the medicines you would take during your life arent naturally occuring, either in cellular structure or in the concentrations and mixtures that are given, yet I dont hear you calling for a return to the agricultural revolution time equivilent of medicinal practise.


1) Source?
2) So what? Even if we could feed the world many times over with our current practises should we still not strive to be more and more efficient with our food (be it growing them or using them)? It would be better for the enviroment (less farmland needed) and more economical (easier to grow food means cheaper food).


I'm not trying to make you eat GM food, if you don't want to fine then don't. I'm only disputing your reasoning. As for labeling, I wouldn't want a big "GM" on GM foods, I want the source of the GM (what specific animal, insect or plant they whe genes where taken from)to be put on the foods so that people who dont want to eat a particular animal because of lifestyle choices, or people who have allergy issues can make their own decisions fully informed.

When do I get a chance to make my own opinion heard without you trying to refute it? Do I need evidence of my own opinion?

If you are looking for sources, as a man of science of course, you could always stick these things into google and im sure you'd find a reputable article to prove it or disprove it. I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just stating my opinion.

Congratulations.