A genuine question to non-LoI fans

whatawaster

Des wrote: »

OK, so we need more players to have the "Kevin Doyle" experience. Keep them here until they are 20/21/22, the flog them on to bigger league.

That makes sense.

At least get them on contracts when they are 17/18 and actually get a transfer fee for them.
This would do 2 things:
1. English clubs are only going to take the very best, because they’ll have to pay for the players.
2. The ones that do go over will generate much needed incomes for the clubs.

Cork seemed to do it well, but how do LOI clubs in Dublin for example get these players on their books in their teens and convince them to sign on with them. That’s the challenge.

zAbbo

Des wrote: »

I'm not looking for a thread with a list of reasons why people don't go.

I'm asking, with the current state of so many LoI clubs, would you go to try and alleviate that.

Yes I would.

Plus live sports, for the love of Jebus - there's nothing better. I've been to games which I thought were great only to watch it on TV later and think it was rubbish

_blank_

whatawaster wrote: »

And I think you’ll find a lot of people asking “to what end?”
Are there changes around the corner? Are clubs about to start using what little income they have wisely?
Are clubs going to take more long term views, rather than chasing silverware, and then going bust two years later?
Or will we just be delaying the inevitable.

I must admit I don’t know a lot about their situation, but on the face of it Shamrock Rovers seem like a good example for other LOI clubs to follow. I’m sure others here no more about it. They went through sh*t to get a new stadium, but they have it (well half of it) and things seem to be going well for them. Could or should other clubs follow their example or are they unique because of their history, fanbase? I’m genuinely curious.

Is this directed at me?

Shamrock Rovers don't own Tallaght Stadium, South Dublin County Council do.

So, yes. I think the CCs have a responsibility there. I'd like to see Dublin City Council do something in conjunction with Shels and/or Bohs as regards a ground. Pats should be in with Rovers. UCD do their own thing and are well run, live within their means. Get rid of the franchise in Fingal.

Now, Rovers had debts wiped after Examinership. I don't think that was fair.

However, since then, yes, Rovers have been a good model in prudent financial sense. As have Shels. We still have debts, but we are managing them, while still being competitive in the First Division. We are not overspending. Another good model.

The clubs who have been through it are being sensible. Those that haven't, aren't.

Actually. Scratch my first question.

Would people be more inclined to go and support a team which is being run well?

pablomakaveli

Des wrote: »

OK, let's look at this example.

Let's take the Scandanavian leagues as an example.

Huge crowds at games, but those countries have a similar movement of players toward the Premier League.

Norways probably the best example.

Norway has a population of approx 4 million identical to ours and are able to maintain a good standard of football while also getting teams into the group stages of the champions league. (Rosenborg) If they are able to do that we should too.

whatawaster wrote: »

This is a very important issue. I don’t think the LOI is marketed well at all. In fact I’m not sure it is marketed at all.
Kids getting in free to matches might not be realistic but it should cost next to nothing if they are accompanied by an adult.
I believe clubs should be way more involved in schools – players (the professional ones) should have to visit schools, do sessions with the kids etc as part of their contract. Some of them are paid far too much as it is they may as well do some good. This getting kids involved and excited about the club will get more and more hooked and they will drag their parents to matches at the weekend. And that’s just one idea . . .
I’d love to know what your average LOI club does on the marketing side of things.

Over the years Cork City players have visited schools, hospitals, award ceremonies for sports clubs and have been very active in the local community.

Denis Behan who moved to Hartlepool from City last week had recently set up a weekend soccer schools for kids.

As for marketing City had newspaper ads radio ads etc.

I'm more than certain this is the case for a lot of the other clubs around the country.

You can't fault a lot of the clubs for their efforts.

_blank_

chopperbyrne wrote: »

maybe implement a rule that half of the national squad must come from the LOI.

:eek::D:eek:

hunter164

Personally I don't think any team in Ireland will be run well until they go bust or are on the verge of it, like Shels and Rovers.

Dublin_Gunner

Des wrote: »

I specifically am trying to make this thread NOT be about LoI -vs- Foreign Leagues.


You mean let the league go under?

Do you realise that would mean no national team?

In fairness, you don;t need a professional national league in order to fulfil the requirements. Any shabby old crappy amateur league will suffice for FIFA - once you have one. Rename the AUL, take the top 4 teams from each province and form the 'Ireland Premier league'. Sure we rarely ever play players from LOI anyway.

The fact of the matter is this - bums on seats is all well and good. Greedy businessmen, or guys parading to be businessmen running these clubs is not ever going to be an option.

More clubs should go down the Barca / Madrid route - open the clubs up to be owned by the fans. Pay a sub to the club, and have it run that way, on an amateur basis until the money is really there to have a pro club.

Turning pro without ever really having the funding to support such a venture was never gonna work - especially not with halfwits on the boards of management, ala CCFC & Shels.

While I do think its terrible that such large (by our standards) clubs have gone down the swanny, they have noone to blame but themselves.

They want to get bums on seats?? Sell the tickets fo a fiver, and say under 10's go free. They would at least be in a better position for sponsorship & advertising if they could state 10,000 at nearly every game. That, IMO would far outweigh trying to rip people off for tickets.

Have a week where its free entry. It may give people the opportunity to go to a match, and realise they like it, and in turn increase the support.

They like to go around things the completely wrong way at out football clubs, hence the current dire situation so many clubs have found themselves in of late.

chopperbyrne

Des wrote: »

:eek::D:eek:

I know it won't happen, but you can't argue that it would at least generate interest.

Whoever said Friday night football is bad, Saturday afternoon would be suicidal for the league when it comes to converting fans who already support a team they watch every Saturday afternoon.

Kirby

chopperbyrne wrote: »

maybe implement a rule that half of the national squad must come from the LOI.

:eek:

Are you off your rocker? Why would we intentionally cripple our national side like that?

I would welcome a general FIFA rule like that, as it promotes local leagues. But if you are the only country doing it, you cripple yourself. The biggest thing in football to me, is watching Ireland play on an international level against the worlds best and hopefully getting into the big tourneys. I havent missed a home game in 10 years and if i knew i was watching a team that was intentionally less than it could be, it would turn my stomach.

Like I said, the idea is great. But on a broad basis. The 6+5 thing in the champions league applies to everyone and thats why it might work.

chopperbyrne

Even without taking half the squad from the LOI our national team has only qualified for four tournaments.

It's not as if we'd be trading huge international success for mediocrity.

whatawaster

Des wrote: »

Is this directed at me?

Shamrock Rovers don't own Tallaght Stadium, South Dublin County Council do.

So, yes. I think the CCs have a responsibility there. I'd like to see Dublin City Council do something in conjunction with Shels and/or Bohs as regards a ground. Pats should be in with Rovers. UCD do their own thing and are well run, live within their means. Get rid of the franchise in Fingal.

Now, Rovers had debts wiped after Examinership. I don't think that was fair.

However, since then, yes, Rovers have been a good model in prudent financial sense. As have Shels. We still have debts, but we are managing them, while still being competitive in the First Division. We are not overspending. Another good model.

The clubs who have been through it are being sensible. Those that haven't, aren't.

Actually. Scratch my first question.

Would people be more inclined to go and support a team which is being run well?

No directed at anyone who cares to answer!
I agree with the CC idea.
Yes, I think a club who are well run and have direction and ambition (but not too much!) would be a more attractive proposition

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Over the years Cork City players have visited schools, hospitals, award ceremonies for sports clubs and have been very active in the local community.

Denis Behan who moved to Hartlepool from City last week had recently set up a weekend soccer schools for kids.

As for marketing City had newspaper ads radio ads etc.

I'm more than certain this is the case for a lot of the other clubs around the country.

You can't fault a lot of the clubs for their efforts.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but are Cork not the best supported club in the league?
Is it as any consequence of these extra efforts?

hunter164 wrote: »

Rovers nearly went bust too but the fans took over the club. It's now a fan run club.

I knew that much. But is that not a realistic model for most or many LOI clubs to follow?

Something similar to Barca/Real on a much, much smaller level. So many members make an initial investment and pay an annual subscription every year?

Going back to the Drogheda United example. Look at how much money the fans raised last season when they were in trouble. Now imagine if that had gone to better use than paying off debts.

Spud83

Yes, I do care, but not enough to do anything

Nope if I'm going to start supporting a local club then I'll end up in Donnybrook.:eek:

stovelid

I don't really buy the assumption that people are put off going to LOI games by the 'real fans'.

Most hardcore fans of big EPL clubs hate so-called armchair fans. Or foreign fans. I have even heard Irish City fans making jibes about United fans from Surrey. . I don't see this putting off people going to games in England.

The notion that clubs in the LOI don't market themselves and are failed by the FAI is true, but it still doesn't fully explain why people stay away. Boh's bad marketing didn't stop the Liverpool game selling out in two days did it?

The fact is that good marketing, facilities and the like cost money. Money that can only come in from support. There really is no way around it. Rovers are a case in point. We couldn't have sold Tolka the way we can sell Tallaght as a facility. We couldn't have done the pre-season marketing campaign that we did without increased season ticket sales this season.

The idea (advanced here) that clubs should embark on expensive campaigns to buy big players, expand marketing budgets and upgrade grounds without matching attendances will just lead to bankruptcy.

While I concede that Rovers have a good board, with real business skills, in contrast to the FAI and a lot of the LOI, the fact remains that years of neglect have led to the chicken and egg scenario we have now. Upgrading the facilities and standard is nearly impossible without arses on seats. Especially at a time where GAA, Rugby and the EPL are completely in the ascendant.

As for the standard. I guess I like football and can enjoy all kinds of football. LOI isn't Madrid, but that said, I still don't understand the lionization of the EPL/SPL/Championship in this context, where a lot of the (still very enjoyable) games (including a team that enjoys huge support here) would certainly not rate highly on a tactical or skill level.

I'm not comparing LOI/EPL to get a row going. The EPL looms large over this country football-wise though. We are pretty unique here when compared to a lot of other counties where a decent local scene can exist side-by-side with a major interest in the bigger, foreign leagues.

hunter164

whatawaster wrote: »

I knew that much. But is that not a realistic model for most or many LOI clubs to follow?

Something similar to Barca/Real on a much, much smaller level. So many members make an initial investment and pay an annual subscription every year?

It's a feasible idea alright and I think it's a good template. But then I'd also like to see Shels sell Tolka and given a council built pitch for them in Ringsend. The money made from the sale would pay off the rest of the debts.

Iago

Des wrote: »

No, I think you should give up an hour and a half to go to Tolka Park instead, with me, we could go together.

Seriously?

I know the way SF do business, so I would be happy for them to fold. I was happy when Continuity Home Farm folded too.

We didn't need another Dublin team, there is no room for them.

So, I'd rather you went to Bohs/Shels. After all, my opening post did mention teams with a history.

but if I said I was going to see SF play would that be better or worse than not going to matches at all?

Des wrote: »

.

Actually. Scratch my first question.

Would people be more inclined to go and support a team which is being run well?

Which probably gets you around the thorny SF question, depending on your definition of "well run"

Anyway I'm not ragging you mate, I haven't answered the poll because I'm in two minds as to whether my answer is 1 or 2. Which to be honest isn't great considering my interest in football.

For me personally I never went to LOI games because I played with/against a lot of the players that were in those leagues over the years and to be honest the quality just wasn't there in my opinion. Similarly I don't have any real affinity any LOI clubs given that I grew up in a borough on the southside that didn't have a local team and have since moved around a lot without really being close to any team in particular. Now my nearest local team is Sporting Fingal, but as you say there's no club history there and I've no personal history with the club so nothing drawing me too games.

The added complication of Friday nights needs to addressed as well, I'm married, I play football two nights a week as it is. Disappearing out the door to watch football on a Friday night on top of that would soon see me divorced. A lot of lads who are really interested in football would probably be the same, training 1/2 nights a week, maybe playing a game on a Saturday or Sunday, and then looking to disappear with their mates on Friday for more football isn't condusive to a happy relationship in the long term.

There are steps the clubs can take, they can have free fan days, free kids days, run competitions for local junior teams who get to play before a game some-night or have some type of walk-on at half-time. Drive interest in the community by being active in the community and you'll get more people wanting to give something back to the club. This may well all be happening already, but I haven't seen any commentary or media on it if it is, so either clubs aren't doing it or they're not marketing it very well. In either event that's a tragedy.

I don't want to see any club fail, or their staff/players be out of work, but if you're product isn't selling in the volumes you need then you have to find new ways and means of making it attractive to potential customers. Has any club actually commissioned research into what would make it attractive? Have there been focus groups of non-LOI fans to discuss what would bring them through the gates? Again, all of this may well have been done, but I haven't seen any sight of it to date.

stovelid

I defo agree that a municipal ownership of decent grounds is the way forward.

Despite the Irish mania for owning the 'asset' of a ground, the clubs are not in a position to keep the grounds in a state to attract punters.

Tallaght and the Cross are the best grounds in the country; neither are owned by the clubs in question.

whatawaster

stovelid wrote: »

I defo agree that a municipal ownership of decent grounds is the way forward.

Despite the Irish mania for owning the 'asset' of a ground, the clubs are not in a position to keep the grounds in a state to attract punters.

Tallaght and the Cross are the best grounds in the country; neither are owned by the clubs in question.

How many clubs actually own their stadiums?

For instance, do Shelbourne and Bohemians both own theirs? Would fans of those clubs be open to a groundshare?

ntlbell

stovelid wrote: »

I
The notion that clubs in the LOI don't market themselves and are failed by the FAI is true, but it still doesn't fully explain why people stay away. Boh's bad marketing didn't stop the Liverpool game selling out in two days did it? .

who do you think bought the tickets?

a game like this is much easier to sell out the majority of people who bought these tickets are people you wouldn't need to market loi games too

the lack of marketing doesn't get new blood in, a game as high profile as liverpool regardless who's playing doesn't require much marketing.

but considering it was plastered all over the radio/rte news/website's etc

I'm not just talking about marketing a football match, I'm talking about a whole community

how much money does it cost to put up a few posters in a local shop?

there's _nothing_

i'm not asking for them to take over 10 million euro 2 min slots on prime time TV we're talking about the basics here

as there is _nothng_

but again your post does the same it whine's on but doesn't really offer anything intelligent or creative in a way of getting those bums on seats

everyone knows that's what needed what no one is saying how to do it

I've asked des two times for some examples and nothing.

dsmythy

Des wrote: »

Yes, they do have that interest in the EPL (I'm trying to get away from words with a negative connotation like "obsession").

However, along with that interest, they also go, in their droves compared to here, to see their own, local teams.

Amazingly so. Norway's population is only about 500,000 more than us. They have 16 teams in their top division and the lowest average attendance for a team is just under 4,000. The highest is 17,000 for Rosenborg. The smallest stadium in the league has a capacity of 7,400. The biggest is 25,000 which is shared by two teams. Rosenborg's stadium holds 21,000. Another thing to note about Norway is that it has a 9 tier football league system.

I think Ireland suffers from proximity, shared history, culture and language when it comes to UK football.

bohsman

Iago wrote: »

Here's a question for you Des, my local team would probably be Sporting Fingal I guess, do you think I should give up an hour and a half every Friday night for them for the duration of the season?

You dont even have to watch them, if the majority kept an eye on their local teams results and went to the odd big game it would be a major boost to the league.

As mentioned for a lot of people its about going to a game of football with mates and having a few pints afterwards, quality is secondary although it does help

If football was only about quality everyone outside the top 4 in England and 2 in Spain should just give up now.

Ntlbell is spot on and its proved by one or two others in some of the ideas theyve put forward that have actually been implemented, Bohs have a kids go free scheme, they send players to local schools - 2 of them are putting on a training school but as is clear most people just dont hear about it.

_blank_

Iago wrote: »

but if I said I was going to see SF play would that be better or worse than not going to matches at all?

Better, of course.

Iago wrote: »

Which probably gets you around the thorny SF question, depending on your definition of "well run"

They aren't well run. They are using loopholes to get around the 65% wage cap. Paying players as coaches, and groundsmen etc. Anyway, that is away from the point.

Clubs like Rovers and Shels (in Dublin) have a set playing budget. Shels' manager knew this at the start of the season, and we haven't gone above it.

That is what I mean by "well-run".

Iago wrote: »

A lot of lads who are really interested in football would probably be the same, training 1/2 nights a week, maybe playing a game on a Saturday or Sunday, and then looking to disappear with their mates on Friday for more football

Yep, Football is the most popular participatory sport in the country. More people are out playing football on a weekly basis than any other sport. I know that from first hand experience, as do you. (~120 teams in the mid-week we are both involved with shows this).

I think that is a bigger problem than most people realise tbh.

angel01

Yes, I do care, but not enough to do anything

whatawaster wrote: »

How many clubs actually own their stadiums?

For instance, do Shelbourne and Bohemians both own theirs? Would fans of those clubs be open to a groundshare?

Personally no I wouldn't.

whatawaster

angel01 wrote: »

Personally no I wouldn't.

why?

_blank_

angel01 wrote: »

Personally no I wouldn't.

Shels owned a long term lease on Tolka Park, and sold this lease some years ago to a developer.

He can't build on it until it is re-zoned, and apparently the CC won't re-zone it until we have a place to play.

No idea who owns Dalyer, neither do Bohs it seems, seeing as they've already sold it at least twice

I would be open to a ground share, but not in Dalymount.

deisedude

dsmythy wrote: »

Amazingly so. Norway's population is only about 500,000 more than us. They have 16 teams in their top division and the lowest average attendence for a team is just under 4,000. The highest is 17,000 for Rosenborg. The smallest stadium in the league has a capacity of 7,400. The biggest is 25,000 which is shared by two teams. Rosenborg's stadium holds 21,000.

I think Ireland suffers from proximity, shared history, culture and language when it comes to UK football.

UK football is only part of the problem. The fact of the matter is Ireland has more team sports vying for the publics attention. In a big country you may get away with this but not in a country of 4 million. The GAA and rugby get far better attendances than the Norway teams you have quoted. People feel these matches represent better value for money quality wise than LOI soccer. Realistically people cant support teams in all codes, its not feasible economically and timewise so LOI is the poor relation

stovelid

ntlbell wrote: »

but again your post does the same it whine's on but doesn't really offer anything intelligent or creative in a way of getting those bums on seats
.

I think Shamrock Rovers have done some pretty good marketing of a admittedly decent facility in Tallaght. They've also creatively positioned themselves in Tallaght as a community-based club.

I do concede that Rovers are lucky in that we found a really capable board amongst us; we are a football (relatively in Irish terms) brand; we had a latent fanbase that had dropped off and returned; Tallaght is a unique area - young population, facilities and a near-civic entity, almost like a country town with all the self-attendant pride and identity, and lastly the support of the local authority.

Even so, it's still a struggle. Even with that behind us, it's a pipe-dream to even think of crowds over 5k at the moment.

And re: your comment about whining. This thread was conceived (imo) in a cordial spirit and I won't be answering any more of your questions after this. If you see that as dodging the issue - fair enough. I'll answer the other posters. I don't like you (here or on any other forum) and I don't like answering your attack-dog questions.

Kingdom

Des wrote: »

I specifically am trying to make this thread NOT be about LoI -vs- Foreign Leagues.


You mean let the league go under?

Do you realise that would mean no national team?

I think its getting to the stage where that could become the real issue, a lot of people don't realise that without a league there can be no nat team.

There aren't enough municipal multi purpose grounds in the country, I saw a thread somewhere of the Norwegian top division stadia, and man it was eye-opening.

What I can never get my head around is this; the DDSL is the biggest organised schoolboy league in Europe, yet it realistically only leads to trials with the EPL. It should be leading to the League of Ireland. The Orchard, Home Farm, Belvo, Stella, Kevins, all have hundreds of kids on their books, should have their own mini grounds and playing in a proper League of Ireland structure. The best kids will always go to the best clubs in foreign countries, ie Spanish/Itai kids going to Lfc MUFC Arsenal etc, but kids should not be leaving these shores for Notts County, Stockport etc.

Slort that and you'd be onto something I think.
Oh facilities too!

chopperbyrne

Des wrote: »

I would be open to a ground share, but not in Dalymount.

Do you mean only at Tolka or would you be open to Bohs and Shels sharing Morton Stadium.

Can't see this happening until Sporting Fingal are no more though.

_blank_

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Do you mean only at Tolka or would you be open to Bohs and Shels sharing Morton Stadium.

Can't see this happening until Sporting Fingal are no more though.

A third ground, neither Dalyer or Tolka.

Tolka Park cannot be developed into a UEFA Standard venue, with entrances only on one side. Unless we go with boats for the far side.

Dublin_Gunner

hunter164 wrote: »

It's a feasible idea alright and I think it's a good template. But then I'd also like to see Shels sell Tolka and given a council built pitch for them in Ringsend. The money made from the sale would pay off the rest of the debts.

As far as I'm aware, Shels don't own Tolka Park, they lease it.

They have a long term lease with Dublin Corporation afaik.

stovelid

Kingdom wrote: »

What I can never get my head around is this; the DDSL is the biggest organised schoolboy league in Europe, yet it realistically only leads to trials with the EPL. It should be leading to the League of Ireland. The Orchard, Home Farm, Belvo, Stella, Kevins, all have hundreds of kids on their books, should have their own mini grounds and playing in a proper League of Ireland structure. The best kids will always go to the best clubs in foreign countries, ie Spanish/Itai kids going to Lfc MUFC Arsenal etc, but kids should not be leaving these shores for Notts County, Stockport etc.
!

There is long-standing non-cooperation/animosity between junior football clubs and the FAI.

That said, kids being taken to England is always going to be an issue given our cultural and geographic proximity. Other counties in Europe also lose kids to the England but not on the same level, I guess.

whatawaster

stovelid wrote: »

Even so, it's still a struggle. Even with that behind us, it's a pipe-dream to even think of crowds over 5k at the moment.

Is that just because the ground only holds 3.5K or lack of demand?
Weren’t all season tickets sold out quickly? That would suggest there’s more to come when the other stand opens.

stovelid

whatawaster wrote: »

Is that just because the ground only holds 3.5K or lack of demand?
Weren’t all season tickets sold out quickly? That would suggest there’s more to come when the other stand opens.

Maybe I'm being pessimistic. I think we could get decent crowds for big games at least and then try and grow it from there.

The ground can hold 7k when the new stand comes online, so we'll see how it goes.

I'm very happy with how the board are taking the club forward, but it's such a boon having the ground and facilities. A boon that I don't know how we (or others) could have created without help or a sea-change in attitudes.

ntlbell

stovelid wrote: »

And re: your comment about whining. This thread was conceived (imo) in a cordial spirit and I won't be answering any more of your questions after this. If you see that as dodging the issue - fair enough. I'll answer the other posters. I don't like you (here or on any other forum) and I don't like answering your attack-dog questions.

You will learn to love me.

orourkeda

The problem has always been poor structures and coaching rather than lack of talent.

This has been going on for years. Everything has been tried to avoid clashing with the major British Leagues but nothing has worked. Summer football. friday night football.

UnitedIrishman

Going back to the OP, I don't like seeing any club going down the drain because even if I don't care about that particular club - thousands of people do. So it's never a nice thing.

My local club would either be Sligo or Galway, both are about an hour or more away. Been up to Sligo twice and enjoyed it more than Galway (seen three straight 0-0's in a row). What I've enjoyed far more is going to Castlebar Celtic in the new A' league because they play decent football and I would've played against a lot of the lads playing for them now. It's also good to see a team like that play their young lads (most are 18-25) in an attempt to blood through a top team. So it's not a case of me saying "oh its LoI, it's muck". If the football is enjoyable then I'll watch it but in many cases the standard (didn't mean to use that word Des), is poor.

Anyways, I think teams need to go back to at most semi-pro/amateur - at least until the clubs start improving finances. Some of the figures being bandied about such as €1k goal bonuses etc are mental. Many clubs are paying more than the best youth teams in England which is slightly crazy given they don't have the same kind of income.

The downside to this is that I know a lot of guys around the place that have been on the books at clubs and they don't see it as a feasible career because A) unless they're getting paid enough, it's a long way to travel each week for training and matches they have very little going for them after they finish up. A lot of them also said that it's not like in years gone-by where it was a privilage to play for for the likes of Galway Utd or Shamrock Rovers, instead there are just players looking to be playing for whoever will pay most. Not all but a good majority.

If I were a LoI chairman:
- I'd look to get as many of the youths from the county/city the club is situated.
- Get in the best coaches (there are so many clueless coaches around without mentioning names at top clubs) and go either semi-pro or amateur.
- Market the club massively. Outside Terryland there isn't even a sign up to say who Galway Utd are playing next or what time!
- Sell it to the kids in the area, setup summer camps in the club etc.

There is great potential in the league and massive potential in the country given the amount of kids that play. But unless the league sorts itself fairly quickly, then I can't see any player giving it credibility.

whatawaster

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

The downside to this is that I know a lot of guys around the place that have been on the books at clubs and they don't see it as a feasible career because A) unless they're getting paid enough, it's a long way to travel each week for training and matches they have very little going for them after they finish up. A lot of them also said that it's not like in years gone-by where it was a privilage to play for for the likes of Galway Utd or Shamrock Rovers, instead there are just players looking to be playing for whoever will pay most. Not all but a good majority.

If I were a LoI chairman:
- I'd look to get as many of the youths from the county/city the club is situated.
- Get in the best coaches (there are so many clueless coaches around without mentioning names at top clubs) and go either semi-pro or amateur.
- Market the club massively. Outside Terryland there isn't even a sign up to say who Galway Utd are playing next or what time!
- Sell it to the kids in the area, setup summer camps in the club etc.

There is great potential in the league and massive potential in the country given the amount of kids that play. But unless the league sorts itself fairly quickly, then I can't see any player giving it credibility.

A big issue for players at all but the very highest levels has to be money, and what you’re going to do once you hang up your boots. Most of the kids going over to England will have no qualifications to fall back on.
Surely there are plenty who would rather stay here and get a proper education whilst playing football than going across the water to the U18 team of a championship club?
How much would it cost a league of Ireland club to put someone through University here? F*ck all compared to the crazy wages being paid to some very average players at the moment. And they’d still have plenty of time to train. I’m sure clubs could have special arrangements with Universities.
A club could have a mix of professional players (modestly paid of course) and youth players (who would cost very little in comparison). With good coaching and focus on technique and skills they could produce a good team playing nice football. Probably at a lower cost than many of them are at the moment.

The problem is there is no leadership, no planning, no nothing. There are definitely ways forward for the league, but it’s hard to see anything changing.

JimiTime

Yes, I do care, but not enough to do anything

Des wrote: »

The question I'm asking is would people be prepared, given the precarious position of a lot of Irish football clubs at the moment, to give up some of their time to help.

As someone who is a fan of no team, but love my footie, I honestly couldn't care less if the LOI went under. I'm not trying to be provocative btw, just giving you an honest answer. I used to be a Pats fan growing up, went to games etc. My dad would take me. He'd take me to the RDS to watch Rovers when they were there too. I enjoyed it to a degree, but it was more about havin' a bit of quality time with my Dad. It was much better going to see the Dubs. I still play ball, and watch EPL and spanish football etc, but have no interest in the LOI.

So honestly, as someone who loves watching and playing ball am I being shortsighted and/or ignorant?
Is the LOI important to Irish football? Because at the moment it seems very insignificant. Other than some sense of loyalty, is there a reason the league should be saved?
Or is it just a place for players who don't make the grade?
Do they have schools of excellence? As an ex Cherry Orchard player, It was us, Home Farm and Stella Marris that were the football nurseries.
Do the LOI invest in nurturing young players?

Personally, the state of schoolboy football (Pitches, coaching, facilities, equipment) is the real issue with Irish football IMO. That is the problem I'd get passionate about.

Again, I'm not trying to provoke, and if I'm being ignorant/shortsighted by all means correct me. This however, is my present stance, and is why you will not be seeing me in the stands of Richmond Park these days.

SectionF

LoI will never achieve an instant mass conversion to live football in Ireland. Each time the topic is discussed, the same shibboleths are trotted out, namely: it's the facilities; it's the standard of play; it's the 'elitist' attitudes of LoI fans; it's the poor running of clubs; it's lack of marketing. This is the kind of nonsense that comes from a nation weaned on marketing diplomas and that worships at the altar of consultants' reports. (Look: Liverpool don't need to market in Ireland. They have RTE, Sky, BBC, The Irish Times, the Indo and the rest of the media to do that for them.)

Some or all of these things may be factors to some degree, but they invariably are overstated, and quite often by people who are speaking from a position of cynicism towards the Irish game.

Regardless of all the finger-wagging and the patronising analyses, the underlying reality is that it is the culture. Irish sporting culture has for decades parked live football as a minority sport, a quaint colonial hangover on a par with hockey or cricket. From one side it is a foreign game that threatens GAA. From another, more recent quarter, it is a small league at best with no means to match the might of initially British and now multinational-owned, globalised brands. By now, we all probably have seen the picture of the thicko Celtic fan with his 'no foreign games' placard.

That unbending categorisation of LoI as a third rate sport is enforced mercilessly every day with each newspaper edition and on the hour, every hour, with each broadcast bulletin. LoI is page lead news right now, because it is in the ****, or in the **** more than usual. But in the normal run of events it is the six point fixture listing at the bottom of the page or the grudging mention at the butt end of the radio sports news. Often, with a particularly ignorant producer or presenter, it can be left out altogether.

Live football in Ireland is a niche sport that cannot be assessed in the same terms as EPL, i.e. in terms of consumer appeal for similar 'products'. There is no comparison in reality and very little linkage between going to a league game and watching one on Sky. While there may be some sharing of interests, given that it is the same code that is in question, there is no reason to assume that there is any natural potential for a mass crossover. EPL fans and LoI fans (even if most LoI fans probably also have an English club affiliation) mostly are two separate tribes. Barstool seats and stadium seats are made for differently-shaped arses.

Any solution will need institutional reform of FAI to represent Irish football more aggressively in Ireland, and to be seen as more than a vehicle for boys-in-green jollies. We are spending countless millions on the 'Aviva Stadium', and on the management of the national team. We are spending peanuts on marketing Irish football. The website of the national league, loi.ie, is appalling, not, I must emphasise, because of its staff, but because it is so clearly lacking in resources.

It's interesting that the suggestion to enforce a half LoI composition of the national team, or the prospect of no national team because we have no league, has concentrated minds in the discussion. A more obvious, if less radical step, to create a more effective linkage in loyalties would be to favour those with proven LoI attendance for access to international tickets for sought-after games, through a much stronger and more formalised system of credits. The fact that this no-brainer has been mooted repeatedly for as long as I can remember, with no action by FAI, demonstrates clearly that Delaney and co. in reality hold no brief for the league.

PS: Bohs may be in trouble, but anyone who thinks that a cute groundshare with Shels is part of any solution has a very short memory, has very little appreciation of LoI culture, or is a Shels fan.

Lamper.sffc

Great thread Des. Some really good ideas coming in. You are also a credit to your club and the league as i constantly see you try and promote the league as much as you can. Even going so far as suggesting to bring people to a Bohs game to try and get them interested in the league.

The way i see it, like a few in here, we need better facilities, better youth sytems that keeps some of the of our decent young players at home. The best will always go to the utds and liverpools of this world but why are we loosing young players to the scunthorpes of this world. Clubs need to be promoted better. I know cost is a factor but leaflets in doors are done by smaller businesses than LOI teams. The league needs to be better promoted by the fai. An ad on tv showing two guys in an empty ground will never promote the league. Show an add with real footage of fans heading to the ground. Show the fans singing in the ground, show the passion of the fans when a goal is scored and show some of the best goals from the league. Then tell people, this is your league, come and support it.
This is what will get people to go IMO

As iv noted from most of the loi fans on here, As said previously. They go on about how the league is not supported well and yet offer up very little in the way of solutions. I think it was mostly non LOI who have been offering up the majority of solution if im not mistaking(note i said mostly non loi)

My problem with some of your comments DES is my club is dismissed on the basis that (1) We have no history and (2) We get around the 65% rule)

What about all the good work we do do.

Players have visited numerous schools this year. They dont just talk about football, they talk about how important exercise is and also discuss healthy eating and how important that is.

We have set up a season ticket scheme for €5 for kids in national schools. So for a fiver they get in to all the home games free and of course the accompaning adult pay.

We have a Special Olympics team who play under the Sporting Fingal name and wear the jersey.

We have under age teams from the fingal area play matches at half time for every home game.

We are constantly promoting in the fingal area and setting up and promoting sports days and soccer schools.

We are sending some of our player to africa for some charity work

We are setting up summer coaching schools for young managers

We are affiliated to two colleges and offer courses to our players.

We had a sports day last sunday for families and their kids before our game against longford. For the this game our crowd was over 1,000(not bad for a team dublin doesnt need) which is the second or third highest in our division all season. We are one of the few clubs this year in both divisions who have actually upped their attendances this year. The reason for that is how we have gone about promoting our team.

Yet we are dismissed for lack of history and bending the 65% rule:rolleyes:

Our club are actually trying to do what people have suggested clubs should do in this country.

As I said Des you are a credit to your club but you sometimes cant take those shels fan blinkers off.

Dublin_Gunner

JimiTime wrote: »

A
Do they have schools of excellence? As an ex Cherry Orchard player, It was us, Home Farm and Stella Marris that were the football nurseries.
Do the LOI invest in nurturing young players?

You left out St. Kevins Boys, Tolka Rovers & Belvo - these, along with the clubs you mentioned have always been the proving grounds for youngsters in Dublin.

Personally, the state of schoolboy football (Pitches, coaching, facilities, equipment) is the real issue with Irish football IMO. That is the problem I'd get passionate about.

It always boils down to grass-roots level.

Even now I look at Tolka Rovers (my club growing up), and they have feck all schoolboy teams. Where are all the kids gone??

The FAI, do not, and have not for quite some time, know how to run their organisation to get things up and running properly.

Look at how they fecked up Eircom Park! We would have had a centre for excellence, and a brand new stadium had they not been money hungry, and went with the government of all people. (and they would have been the main tenants of Eircom park, not so with the Bertie Bowl).

They haven't got a clue. And thats what it boils down to. The LOI clubs (mostly) have not got a clue how to run a club.

They see the €€€, grab what they can, and before they know it, theyre plans are down the drain pipe.

Hence we have clubs entering administration, and a half arsed attempt at a national stadium.

whatawaster

SectionF wrote: »

LoI will never achieve an instant mass conversion to live football in Ireland. Each time the topic is discussed, the same shibboleths are trotted out, namely: it's the facilities; it's the standard of play; it's the 'elitist' attitudes of LoI fans; it's the poor running of clubs; it's lack of marketing. This is the kind of nonsense that comes from a nation weaned on marketing diplomas and that worships at the altar of consultants' reports. (Look: Liverpool don't need to market in Ireland. They have RTE, Sky, BBC, The Irish Times, the Indo and the rest of the media to do that for them.)

That's because each of these arguments (facilities, standard of play etc) all have merit. The LOI has no divine right to be succesful. It has to do more.

We are spending peanuts on marketing Irish football. The website of the national league, loi.ie, is appalling

and you say above lack of marketing is not a massive issue. It clearly is. I very much doubt that anyone with any experience in marketing works in the LOI.

romperstomper

Couple of points, in general response.

1 clubs going to to wall is through bad administration. Always has been, always will in any league

2 I watch soccer as entertainment. Starting in the ealry 90s watch channel 4, I saw the like of baggio, batistuta etc. One moment of magic in the 2 hour show made it worth it. Later, is switch to henri and aresenal. Now messi and barcelong get my attention. When loi get worth watching, I'll watch them and not because of some stupid mis guided 'support your local parish, jus cos reasons'

3 fai are incompetent morons and are also partially to blame (I no longer go to roi games after travelling to bari and paying €12 for a great seat.)

SectionF

whatawaster wrote: »

That's because each of these arguments (facilities, standard of play etc) all have merit. The LOI has no divine right to be succesful. It has to do more.



and you say above lack of marketing is not a massive issue. It clearly is. I very much doubt that anyone with any experience in marketing works in the LOI.

I am pointing this out to illustrate the FAI's skewed priorities. And I am not saying that marketing is not an issue. What I am saying is that it needs to be put in a broader frame. If I had a euro for every time someone said the Loi should do more marketing (and usually without any suggestion as to how to progress that idea) I would be a rich man.
You are right in saying that the Loi has no divine right to be successful. You are wrong in saying that it needs to do more. Its clubs are virtually bankrupt, so much so that, unless they have special supports already, most have no option but to do less. The FAI, as the national organizing body of the sport in Ireland, should do more, and dramatically more, by completely revising its priorities which currently relegate the game here to the status of a sideshow.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

SectionF

romperstomper wrote: »

2 I watch soccer as entertainment. Starting in the ealry 90s watch channel 4, I saw the like of baggio, batistuta etc. One moment of magic in the 2 hour show made it worth it. Later, is switch to henri and aresenal. Now messi and barcelong get my attention. When loi get worth watching, I'll watch them and not because of some stupid mis guided 'support your local parish, jus cos reasons'

That's a straight-up, honest answer that reflects the reality of the mass of EPL etc. fans. You are a weapon of massive consumption. LoI can never compete for your attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddsTQP08zXQ

Dave!

SectionF wrote: »

That's a straight-up, honest answer that reflects the reality of the mass of EPL etc. fans. You are a weapon of massive consumption. LoI can never compete for your attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddsTQP08zXQ

Yay!!! You did it!!!!

Pro. F

In answer to the OP, I would not be interested in providing charity to the LOI clubs that are in trouble. I believe that lots of the LOI clubs are badly run. I don't believe that any amount of charity that I could give to any particular club would cause a long term improvement in the league in general.

IMO the route cause of the problem in Irish football is the FAI. Let me explain my view (and I hope I don't sound too preachy):

In any competition rules and organisation are of paramount importance. People will do anything to succeed in competition - even if it is to the determent of the competition and even if it is detrimental to their own long term success. Rules and organisation that govern what clubs do off the pitch are just as important as rules that govern what teams do on it. If the league is in rag order, with clubs destroying themselves, then it is the league organisers that are the root problem.

IMO discussions of what individual clubs should do in order to improve their situation miss the point. Also discussion of how to get bums on seats is not looking at underlying problems. The prerequisite for a successful sporting competition is organisation and governance of that competition.

I think we all agree that the FAI is a shambles. I would suggest that we should be looking at the very big picture i.e. what we could create if we had a clean slate and were organising league football in Ireland from scratch. Obviously we would need to respect the integrity of clubs already in existence but everything else - league structure, youth development, club funding and distribution of funds, etc, etc, - should be examined imo.

In this thread lots of different important issues have been discussed (eg the movement of young Irish talent to low level clubs in England, the lack of connection between School Boy and LOI football, club finances, etc,). Some of these issues are of absolutely massive importance. But nothing will be fixed until we address the root cause of all these problems - the organisation of football in Ireland - the FAI.

DSB

Pro. F wrote: »

In answer to the OP, I would not be interested in providing charity to the LOI clubs that are in trouble. I believe that lots of the LOI clubs are badly run. I don't believe that any amount of charity that I could give to any particular club would cause a long term improvement in the league in general.

IMO the route cause of the problem in Irish football is the FAI. Let me explain my view (and I hope I don't sound to preachy):

In any competition rules and organisation are of paramount importance. People will do anything to succeed in competition - even if it is to the determent of the competition and even if it is detrimental to their own long term success. Rules and organisation that govern what clubs do off the pitch are just as important as rules that govern what teams do on it. If the league is in rag order, with clubs destroying themselves, then it is the league organisers that are the root problem.

IMO discussions of what individual clubs should do in order to improve their situation miss the point. Also discussion of how to get bums on seats is not looking at underlying problems. The prerequisite for a successful sporting competition is organisation and governance of that competition.

I think we all agree that the FAI is a shambles. I would suggest that we should be looking at the very big picture i.e. what we could create if we had a clean slate and were organising league football in Ireland from scratch. Obviously we would need to respect the integrity of clubs already in existence but everything else - league structure, youth development, club funding and distribution of funds, etc, etc, - should be examined imo.

In this thread lots of different important issues have been discussed (eg the movement of young Irish talent to low level clubs in England, the lack of connection between School Boy and LOI football, club finances, etc,). Some of these issues are of absolutely massive importance. But nothing will be fixed until we address the root cause of all these problems - the organisation of football in Ireland - the FAI.

Alot would be addressed if people dropped the knowitall attitude and just came to matches.

The Rooster

LoI clubs are fighting a battle they will inevitably lose. This country cannot support a professional soccer league. Nothing to do with the standard in my opinion, just the perception. The good players go to play in the Premier League or Championship, the one's who arent good enough stay in the LoI. The perception is that its effectively a reserve league. Its also up against GAA and rugby where people can go watch the elite of those sports. Just look at the way the AIL rugby attendances have been decimated since they lost their best players to the provinces.

Why should anyone care about badly run clubs who commit suicide by continually spending more than they can get in? Most of which who couldnt give a crap about community or the future generation - its absolutely shameful that so many of them don't have youth academies.